<Untitled IAQ Project>: Round 2: A quip would be clever here, wouldn't it?

[074]

Lord of the Rings is a fantasy dinosaur, on that note, and should be extinct.

[AndrewRogue]

On naming, as a general request: Looking for consistency here, if at all possible here. Breaking it up regionally within the world (and using some real world groupings) would help a lot with this. Also, choosing names based on meaning and origin is fun too. For sake of brief reference at this very moment:

Noemi: Italian, Czech, Biblical, Latin (Pleasantness)
Erastus: Biblical, Biblical Latin (Beloved)
Mirek: Czech, Slovak, Polish (Peace)
Eirwen: Welsh (White/Blessed Snow)
Artur: German, Portugese, Galician, Russian, Slovene, Polish, Czech, Romanian (bear, man, stone)
Isolde: English, German, Celtic Mythos (debated origins leading to a possibility akin to ice battle)

Djinn: I don’t have an issue with jumping to an Asiatic region or scheme, but keep in mind, it should represent a fairly radical cultural shift as well, in all likelihood, since it would clearly be further removed from the more generally European major areas. And I object, on principal, to making it in the east or even tinier island nations. >_>

On the thoughts about Isolde, I personally think we should definitely look at tying her to the cast first and foremost, then her place in our somewhat nebulous plot thus far, since I think going from character ties -> plot position works better. But that’s the way I write >_>

To that end, I think I fundamentally disagree there and think, at least initially, she should be something more of a government shill. Looking at what we have so far… firstly, tying her in a friendly way to Aurel seems like a definite good idea. Perhaps his initial breakout moment was surviving whatever conflict she was dishonored at. Thus, when he was assigned to watch Noemi, he requested she come. Or perhaps vice versa. Isolde was, originally, approached discreetly and asked to be a “neutral” guard on the matter (keeping an eye on Noemi who, while talented, valuable and good, is in bad/unstable company in the form of Erastus) and suggested Aurel be appointed as an official guard. Work off the function that, military wise, she’s an inverse to Erastus, and it additionally makes sense she’d be interested. She likely has some sort of distaste/dislike or perhaps even hatred/resentment of the man.

An image begins to come through here. She’s portrayed utterly as the for-hire guard (obviously the Empire can only spare so many of their own men) and secretly reports back to the Empire, making sure that Erastus isn’t up to anything. However, work to emphasize this isn’t evil government branch she’s initially reporting to and she’s doing this out of honest thoughtfulness, and her eventual defection when her superiors do something nappy is fairly reasonable.

Working further off THAT perhaps she has a personal stake in this. Perhaps her and Aurel are close friends and she’s aware of his condition. Perhaps they are/were once more than friends. This places additional reasoning for her to be doing what she’s doing, as well as a means to press on if/when Aurel is killed. Also sets up some potential mild love triangle stuff (probably works better if her and Aurel were a thing but split for amiable reasoning, they just remain very close friends or what not to counterpoint Ei/Mir/Art interaction early on).

This, in turn, frees up Aurel as a more straightforward, crusading type who is utterly absorbed in his work, which is the protection of the Dissonant practitioner/opposing the revolution/rebellion, etc. Gives us a nice, “clear” character while complicating the main character in the branch.

Or something. I think this meshes with Nama’s post? I’ll review it a bit later.

Donald (and Rob): I’m… pretty neutral on gunpowder. I tend to stick purely to swords and sorcery in my fantasy, and thus usually work off some general assumptions that the natural laws, material composition of the world or simply the way tech progression has been stymied by magic becoming the main “tech.” Provided it can be done in the world, there is always a pretty easy argument for its presence (same reason we still have people using inferior technologies or supernatural beliefs, kinda), so I disagree there with Djinn.

If people can make a good case for why to include it, I won’t fight too hard against it.

Back to Djinn: The less complex approach (not saying I dislike yours, just giving an alternate) to providing the player sooome freedom of choice would probably be to make the linear focus of the game around Noemi’s presence and make some notable fill-in-for-what-happened-while-she-was-gone

NOEMI CHAPTER -> NOEMI/ISOLDE CHAPTER -> (ISOLDE CHAPTER)/(MIREK CHAPTER)/(OMAKE CHAPTER OR SOMETHING) -> NOEMI/MIREK CHAPTER.

In other words, keep the story where Noemi is concerned, but give the player the chance to advance the surrounding storylines in the way they choose. So, after they complete the Isolde w/ Noemi stuff (the party is separated here or something), they have the option of seeing what Isolde does next on her own, or going off to meet this Mirek fellow that Erastus was suggesting they meet. Once the supplementary material finishes, the next Noemi or XXX w/ Noemi chapter unlocks.

Another for General purposes thing. I think its time to start breaking down the PCs, especially if we’re having notable cast overlap per branch as well, since I think we’re several PCs short of our goal, but also have to account for (especially Noemi) moving around a lot. These are JUST my thoughts.

<NOEMI BRANCH>
Noemi (Shock)
Erastus (Early game “party guardian” PC, doesn’t recur as an actual PC again until mid to late game)
Aurel (Should he be quantified as a PC here? Possibly.)

<ISOLDE BRANCH>
Isolde (Awe)

<MIREK BRANCH>
Mirek (No joke)
Eirwen
Artur

<GOD KINGS BRANCH>
Fuck if I know

Yeah. We have gaps to fill in both story and character side for our skeleton >_>

[Excal]

I've been fiddling around with Korean names, and I'm thinking that I'm going to have some research to do before I feel comfortable doing too much naming (not to mention it's...  surprisingly bare on most of the usual sources) but I do kind of like it as a flavour of name that isn't used too often.  Some of the other ones that appealed were Arabic and Biblical for the God Kings.  But this is all of secondary importance right now.  (Though, furthuring this idea is that the only people worthy of surnames are those aligned with one of the royal families, and they all have their family name, with the inheritors all claiming a title name also generally keyed to the clan, with a middle or true name that describes the person themselves, and is typically all a commoner would be born with.

As for Isolde.  I hadn't thought about that part with Aurin, but it does kinda work with what I had in mind for her.  Anyways...  unlike Noemi, my image of Isolde is that she was a prodigy.  Not only was she a prodigy, but she was also ambitious and career focused.  She had the talent to rise to the top of the military's ranks, and she meant to do it.  Was briefly engaged when she was 24, this ended amicably when a promotion opportunity opened up, and they both chose their careers over the relationship, hasn't gotten that close to marriage since.

I'm imagining her big disgrace to be having been caught in a battle where her intelligence was horribly wrong, leading to an ambush in territory that the Guardians knew better than her forces did, and was too close to a city they couldn't afford to hand over.  So she couldn't run, but was getting torn apart by hit and run tactics she couldn't match openly.  So she used her Earth Dissonance to tear the land apart with fissures and quakes.  It was effective at driving the local Guardians out of hiding, and ruining their ability to use hit and run tactics, forcing an open fight that her forces could win.  However, in the chaos some of her own forces were hit, including the very popular son and heir of a major nobleman who was in the middle of trying to rally scattered troops.  As well, in the aftermath the land was so wrecked from her dissonance, and polluted with Disquiet that the nearby city had to be evacuated.

The subsequent calls for her head, were officially answered, but unofficially she's still trusted to do work and to do so with little direct supervision.  She's not above being a little bitter about this, having lost her future, her ambitions, and her name while the Hero, Erastus, gains acclaim for something similar.  But, privately, she still works loyally accepting that this is how she can best serve her empire.  As well, and this is, I feel, the core  of her character, she does not regret what she has done, nor would she do it differently.  She made the call that it was the best thing to do, and will not belittle those involved by claiming they were wasted or that they didn't truly understand the risks.  So, she remains fairly stable, and at peace with her past.

[Sir Donald 3.2]

Donald (and Rob): I’m… pretty neutral on gunpowder. I tend to stick purely to swords and sorcery in my fantasy, and thus usually work off some general assumptions that the natural laws, material composition of the world or simply the way tech progression has been stymied by magic becoming the main “tech.” Provided it can be done in the world, there is always a pretty easy argument for its presence (same reason we still have people using inferior technologies or supernatural beliefs, kinda), so I disagree there with Djinn.

If people can make a good case for why to include it, I won’t fight too hard against it.

All right.  Just want to make sure that we don't have a world where we have gunpowder cannons on naval vessels but no muskets/bayonets is all.  That's just a bit too common in at least Medieval-set Video Games.  I can see Dissonant mages being the chief firepower on naval vessels.

Oh, and Rob:  The Magic of this world is not the same as the "Magic" of Arda.  In fact, Arda is quite ordinary/Real Terran in terms of "magic".  Only the 5 Wizards can "cast spells" in Arda.  Here, about a fifth of the populace (or more) has some magical affinity.  In this aspect, Arda is the exception to the Fantasy "rule".

[074]

Andy: Eh.  Not feeling Isolde would be the type who would be involved in romantic relationships.  Not now, anyway, though part of it is just me feeling weird about it.

Excal: Hm.  We might have to go with a different Dissonance type for Isolde--if only because it seems to overlap a good deal with Noemi's specialization (Andy pegged her as Earth/Metal, so...).  Not sure what other type we could go with, but given the apparent range of Dissonance abilities out there, there's likely something.

[Excal]

Hmm...

Some more random thoughts.  I want to toss this out there right now.  PC Death/Betrayal as options.  Given that we're not going to be giving PC use rewards, may as well allow for the possibility of some of our cast to go bad before the finale.  Especially since we want our false end to involve the party generally getting screwed, and our goal is for Erastus to try and replicate his situation for Mirek/Noemi.  So, odd as this may sound, I oppose Mirek and Noemi being romantically invested in each other unless writing heavily leads that way naturally (in which case...  Mirek is probably gonna die), and in fact, I like the idea of Mirek having the romantic interest what gets snuffed while Noemi doesn't have one (she has her cause, just like Isolde.  Whereas Mirek seems to be less interested in causes, and more in simply trying to live and get by while also being as decent a person as he can manage).  This means we'll need more details before we know how they try to harm Noemi, but I like the idea of betrayal for her.  Give her someone who is with her the entire time, someone who she, and we, can come to feel will support her come thick and thin, and then when it matters most, betrays her.

It could be Aurel, but I'm not sure his role in the plot entirely fits that anymore.  I'm actually thinking school friend now.  Someone who she's known for a long time, and who she thinks isn't there because of any of the grand things going on like everyone else she gets saddled with, but who's actually there for her.

As for replacements, if most of these happen right before the God King arc, then the God King arc will actually give you extra PCs to ensure you have enough for the final dungeon, and avoids character creep.

Other things I've been fiddling around with today are cults, religions, and the FP.  In fact, I'm currently working on the idea that there's a common belief that the FP isn't dead, but instead is off somewhere merely resting, awaiting the day of his return.  At which point he'll either heal the land, or blast the usurpers, or both depending on who you listen to.  People generally agree it's best not to need him to return.

Tied into this, the island where he's said to be hanging out will be uninhabitable, and well known to be so.  But, the BBEG cult will have found out enough about Quietus to have actually stilled the Disquiet there, and they live there, in an almost Flowless realm, almost removing the Flow from themselves.  This gives them an inhuman aura, and renders them mostly emotionless, and cuts their sense of the other, and even somewhat of the self.  However, their method is faulty, and burns out their capacity for Resonance.  Which means all they can do is deaden areas.  And these dead areas end up buffered by a shell of Disquiet, preventing ambient Resonance from restoring the areas.

Hmm...  yes.  That's it.  The first plot arc will deal with their attempts to either deal with the Disquiet, which is having bad side effects, or their attempts to restore the works and will of the FP, perhaps believing that if they invoke enough of these dead patches in the right formation, they can summon his soul from it's slumber to lead/guide them.

Final confrontation of the first act involves facing off against these guys in their home base on the FP's island, and breaking their source of power there.  Likely part of this will involve Noemi's research into the Quietus bearing fruit as she figures out the proper way to mesh Resonance in with this magic to make the trinity.  This will be followed by short sections where Erastus makes his move, tearing apart the three parties.

Cue God King plot where they likely do their thing, rescue Isolde's group and then getting Mirek and Noemi back into ass kicking shape.  Final plot tie ups happen and then they storm the place where the final battle is going to occur.  Which, should likely be the capitol, with a nice 3 part dungeon.

[Anthony Edward Stark]

Oh, and Rob:  The Magic of this world is not the same as the "Magic" of Arda.  In fact, Arda is quite ordinary/Real Terran in terms of "magic".  Only the 5 Wizards can "cast spells" in Arda.  Here, about a fifth of the populace (or more) has some magical affinity.  In this aspect, Arda is the exception to the Fantasy "rule".

My point was more that the Wizards of Middle-Earth could magic the shit out of things, but they usually didn't have to because they were also much more intelligent than everyone else. Saruman probably could have magicked his way to the Hornburg and brought the walls down magically but he used his intellect, not his superpowers, to do the job.

Some more random thoughts.  I want to toss this out there right now.  PC Death/Betrayal as options.  Given that we're not going to be giving PC use rewards, may as well allow for the possibility of some of our cast to go bad before the finale.  Especially since we want our false end to involve the party generally getting screwed, and our goal is for Erastus to try and replicate his situation for Mirek/Noemi.  So, odd as this may sound, I oppose Mirek and Noemi being romantically invested in each other unless writing heavily leads that way naturally (in which case...  Mirek is probably gonna die), and in fact, I like the idea of Mirek having the romantic interest what gets snuffed while Noemi doesn't have one (she has her cause, just like Isolde.  Whereas Mirek seems to be less interested in causes, and more in simply trying to live and get by while also being as decent a person as he can manage).  This means we'll need more details before we know how they try to harm Noemi, but I like the idea of betrayal for her.  Give her someone who is with her the entire time, someone who she, and we, can come to feel will support her come thick and thin, and then when it matters most, betrays her.

One millions times yes. Characters should react to how you treat them rather than just sticking with you out of plot necessity. Each character should have their own goals that are serviced by aligning themselves with the PC, and they stick around as long as they think/are convinced that is happening.

[Cmdr_King]

Strongly opposed.  Aside from not being in favor of that sort of pathing anyway, removing PCs from the party in the endgame is an immense dick move regardless of story justification, and we're already making the main villain a long-term temp!  Having half the party join him is severely bad mojo.

[Excal]

I'm thinking 2-4 would be the range.  In a cast of at least 15 to that point, with 4-5 more to come.   And at least one of those would not be joining the enemy.

More to the point, I don't agree that it's a dick move.  Hell, I've definately found my enjoyment of some games to go up because of long term PCs pulling well executed but sudden back stabs.  And if the game doesn't reward you for specifically using certain people, then you also avoid the bad mojo of building someone up only to lose that investment.

I mean, it certainly seems like it'd bring out stronger emotions than offing random NPC #3014.

[Talaysen]

The issue is that if someone happens to LIKE a certain PC, them leaving in some manner is a dick move.  Because now they can no longer use said PC.  Pretty much agree with CK here.

[dude789]

I was wondering if humans are going to be the only ones who are able to manipulate the flow. Avatar the Last Airbender had the interesting idea that humans didn't discover bending on their own, but rather learned it from animals and forces of nature. It seems like a similar idea can work for this especially if we decide to implement Djinn's sense based magic.

As for PC betrayal, I'm strongly opposed to variable PCs betraying the party. Having a few PCs betray the party is fine, but they should be constant. The possibility of taking away someone's favorite character without warning is a pretty dick move.  

[Excal]

Dude, I'm curious what you mean by variable and constant.  It sounds like you mean no matter which storyline you follow, it's always the same people.  But it also sounds like you mean that there should be ways to prevent selected people from being betrayers.

[AndrewRogue]

Discussion is available in: #DLIAQ

[Anthony Edward Stark]

As for PC betrayal, I'm strongly opposed to variable PCs betraying the party. Having a few PCs betray the party is fine, but they should be constant. The possibility of taking away someone's favorite character without warning is a pretty dick move.  

And if it, as I proposed, was a function of the player's treatment of the party members? Rinoa should get fed up with all the verbal abuse I heap on her and leave, not decide to fall in love with me for it.

[AndrewRogue]

All right. Trying for a skeletal outline, working with the points we have. Trying to set up some ribs in the middle. This is VERY ROUGH. VERY. And trying to hit along major plot concepts (and fill in some details where I ahve them). This is mainly emphasizing Noemi stuff, since she's the plot backbone character. There's a LOT of room for things to be filled out.

Noemi meets with Erastus and a reunion is had.
-Discussion of her plans, etc

They prepare to leave, but are interrupted by Aurel, who greets them as their military escort. He further introduces them to their attache, Isolde (and Co?)
-Erastus is exasperated by the process, but Noemi is amused.
-The party is set to travel to a costal town a bit south.

En route, they skirt a Dissonant plantation + ruined town.
-The place is clear slums. Used to be kind of grand, but has fallen on hard times.
-Noemi wants to explore, but is steered away for the time being, as Disquieted areas like this are dangerous without proper guidance.

They eventually make it to town and set up.

Oh shit, God King Pirates!
-They attack, but seem to recognize some passengers. The delay is enough to escape, but Isolde and Co are seperated from Noemi and Co!

Isolde and Co. do shit related to government, likely finding a recent Guardian uprising or something. They must work their way back toward YYYY.

Introduction to Mirek and Co.

Noemi and Co eventually straggle to  YYYY. Time is spent touring the town, refreshing, reminiscing.

The group hunts down Mirek's haunts

Stuff

Noemi convinces Mirek to take them into the Disquieted plantation.

They investigate and, accidentally, encounter a pocket of Guardians.
-Oh noes.

Stuff

Isolde finally makes it and encourages the group return to the government and inform them. Mirek is interested in picking a fight.
-Consider a split choice here? Unchosen party gets a solo chapter that roughly covers the plot, but has repercussions.

Okay. This is going to be less bullet point, more generalized talk here to get the ideas out and around. Having looked at Excal's ideas, I think it best works if the Guardians have learned that the Empire is plotting an expedition to the Great Lord's Throne. They are plotting a series of attacks to disrupt these plans and, essentially, hijack them. As of now, the general thrust should be (outside of Mirek/Erastus backstory) that the Empire looks to the better side of things, so getting embroiled against the Guardian's seems to be the best plan. I think it should suffice to say that a plan thwarting goes down, and the military reveals some of its nastiness, which probably leads to another split choice of sorts. Art, meanwhile, has betrayed the party to the Guardians and sets them up in a trap.

Noemi defies the Empire, and is forced to run for the moment. Perfect time to wrap her up in the nobility. Over time, with any luck she scores a sponsor to get her in competition for this run to the Great Lord's Throne, where everything seems to be pointing her.

The push to the Great Lord's Throne.

Noemi is confronted for the umpteenth time by the God King crew. They are surprisingly happy to be beaten and leave uneventfully.

THE SECRET IS REVEALED and, whichever villainous force we've decided is stronger claims it for the moment. [We possibly go with them being quickly ganked by Erastus here, or we draw this arc out a bit longer]
-Either way, the party is scattered.

God Kings to the rescue!

Party recovering and the fall of the central Empire government

The PCs must regain their faith and stand against the evil forces [or Erastus]

If we do not use Erastus as the villain who won up there, here he steps up, backstabs the major party and takes things over, leading into the final conflict.

[Both Isolde and Mirek definitely need a major side plotline. Isolde's is probably her government hater, Mirek's is likely his ex-, the girl who digs him and the Guardian loyalist Art.]

[Magic Fanatic]

   <MagicFanatic>   Well, it's good to note it's there.
   <MagicFanatic>   Would you... Mind if I were to go over a character idea with you that will probably never see the light of day elsewhere?
   <Djinn>   I would mind if you didn't! ^_^
   <Djinn>   Tell me tell me
   <MagicFanatic>   Well, here's the thing. The idea is basically a young male in the same graduating class as Noemi. Probably graduated in the top 10% of his class. Somewhat lazy usually, but when he realizes that there's something he wants, he will actively and obsessively work towards it.
   <Djinn>   If you have him as an expert in 'barbarian', he could become a useful translator in the Barbarian path.
   <Djinn>   I'm not sure how much you've been keeping up with the story discussions...
   <Djinn>   But there's a proposed idea to have another path based on one of the cultures outside the Empire. We're affectionately calling them 'barbarians', like the Imperials would.
   <MagicFanatic>   Anywho, I REALLY want to break the trend of RPG characters parents being widowed/dead-all-around, but... Both of his parents were known for being able to use Resonance easily enough, but while his mother was pregnant with this character, she suffered a near-fatal accident. Lucky, thanks to the healing power of Dissonance, she survived, and managed to birth a healthy baby boy. The price? ...
   <MagicFanatic>   ...She's extremely frail, with basically no hope of recovery.
   <MagicFanatic>   While a normal person might be hindered by a small cold for a day for two, she'd be bedridden for a week, to use an example.
   <MagicFanatic>   His father would be working most of the time, just to keep the family going... But has turned to adultery to sate himself, even while his wife knows.
   <MagicFanatic>   Anywho, this character does love his parents dearly, and shares a similar goal to Noemi - to heal the Disquiet. However, while Noemi's goal is to find a way to heal the Disquiet poisoning the land, this character's goal is to try to find a way to heal the Disquiet poisoning in people.
   <MagicFanatic>   Specifically, his mother.
   <Djinn>   This is actually a really interesting parallel.
   <MagicFanatic>   That's... All I've really got the idea for so far. In terms of battle capabilities, I was almost thinking he could have inherited his parent's Resonance abilities, while a small bit of his Mother's Dissonance poisoning could have seeped into him as well.
   <MagicFanatic>   So, eventually, he'd be able to interact with both forms of Flow manipulation.
   <MagicFanatic>   So... Thoughts? Ideas on what to flesh out? Criticisms?
   <Djinn>   He could work as a side PC in Noemi's path, but I think you'll have more luck pitching him as a side PC in the Barbarian path, who gets his viewpoint revealed gradually and explored there. He could be introduced in Noemi's path, someone she knows. Would be useful point during the 'regrouping' phases towards the end.
   <Djinn>   Especially if he happens to be an expert in speaking Barbarian. They'll need a translator.
   <Djinn>   He could be half.
   <Djinn>   Or perhaps his father's mistress is Barbarian (we REALLY need a new term for that soon)
   <Djinn>   I think it's a good idea.
   <MagicFanatic>   Backstory sounds solid enough?

*Unrelated stuff*

   <MagicFanatic>   Well, he could have come from a city that normally deals with or borders the Barbarian lands, right?
   <Djinn>   He could come from anywhere
   <Djinn>   I was thinking he's from somewhere near where Noemi came from so they have somethign in common
   <MagicFanatic>   Hmm... Well, I suppose the name can come later.
   <MagicFanatic>   Still, I'm liking the idea of this character being able to act as something of a translator.
   <Djinn>   It's a role we need
   <MagicFanatic>   Still, attending the same classes with Noemi might have gotten them as acquaintances early, even if they came from different places, right?
   <Djinn>   And since there aren't a lot of cultures left in this world after the big island break-up and subsequent Imperial reformation... there's probably a very few number of foreign languages.
   <Djinn>   Well, of course
   <Djinn>   But coming from the same area gives them a reason to befriends
   <MagicFanatic>   So, yeah. Mother's frail but alive, father's hardworking and takes care of his family but is also an adulterer, mistress is friendly enough and a Barbarian.
   <MagicFanatic>   If anything else, they could also have been assigned together for a few school projects, too.
   <Djinn>   I suppose
   <Djinn>   Just...be careful of making him -too- close to Noemi
   <Djinn>   there's already that Artur character
   <MagicFanatic>   I'm not sure if it'd be possible to have Noemi and this character starting from the same area, given the backstory of each. Barbarians are trying to stay away from the heavily-influenced areas of Dissonance, right?
   * Djinn   shrugs
   <Djinn>   I dunno



End text dump.

For names, I've seen and liked Fahim, but I don't really have anything concrete for what I really want yet.

Anywho, in terms of battle, I'd say he starts the game...  Really bad.  Like, liability-level bad.  Then once he gets a few levels, his Magic stats start going up like whoa.  See that one mage who specializes in magery and gets +8 MAG per level?  Yeah, Fahim is getting close to +22 per level.  Now see that other mage who gets like 8 PDEF per level?  Fahim's lucky to get 3.  General idea, but I tend to lean on the broken side of things anyway.

Name: unknown as of yet.

For names, I've seen and liked Fahim, but I don't really have anything concrete for what I really want yet.

Anywho, in terms of battle, I'd say he starts the game...  Really bad.  Like, liability-level bad.  Then once he gets a few levels, his Magic stats start going up like whoa.  See that one mage who specializes in magery and gets +8 MAG per level?  Yeah, Fahim is getting close to +22 per level.  Now see that other mage who gets like 8 PDEF per level?  Fahim's lucky to get 3.  General idea, but I tend to lean on the broken side of things anyway.

[dude789]

Dude, I'm curious what you mean by variable and constant.  It sounds like you mean no matter which storyline you follow, it's always the same people.  But it also sounds like you mean that there should be ways to prevent selected people from being betrayers.

Basically, I'm opposed to players actions determining if someone leaves the party for plot reasons. If someone leaves the party it should be an important part of the plot and not something that the players actions have any effect on.

[Sir Donald 3.2]

Why not?  I mean, I can see someone playing Mole with a reasonably high Relationship Value, but not a Top Level Relationship.  Also, someone of ostensibly neutral alignment could choose sides based on how they feel about one character or another.

Then again, I don't think that "Relationship to the current Leader" should be the only factor.  I would also have a scale of overall abs:Dissonance/Quiet (absolute deviation from "balance") determine whether or not a PC will "betray" you or not be able to continue the quest.  (The latter occurs with a "good" relationship but a "high" Dissonance/Quiet (absolute value).)  

Perhaps have it be three sliding scales:  Relationship values for personal interactions, Alignment for allegiance (both of these first two will combine to determine whether a PC will betray you) and Flow for degree of (magical) corruption.  (If they become a bad guy with a high amount of dissonance, he won't survive.  Otherwise, there's a chance they'd survive the game even though they wouldn't be playable.)

And, with the scales, you could get fair warning as to who if you keep talking to your Party (an option we should add).  As to when, that should be constant; there would be multiple opportunities, but you should be able to see them a mile out.  

Example: when you're coming up on some Corrupt Corp Exec's mansion to implement the Jack Bauer Interrogation Technique, you'd need to sleep in an Inn just before.  During that stay, an agent of the Corp. Exec would have a meeting with one of your PCs just outside of the Inn.  Usually, it would be a static character and the agent would remind the character of a "reward" for turning the main PC in.  However, if you got one (or two) character's relationship value and alignment quite low, he/they can appear in that character's stead "I sent the message to [static]."  "(S)He won't come.  (S)He's too soft.  I'm the one you want to talk to."

Another example would be when approaching an area of extreme Disquiet.  A whole bunch of people would keep commenting through the dungeon.  Also, some NPCs would comment about how they can feel it even from a distance.

[AndrewRogue]

As we approach the deadline for Round 2, more and more I feel the need to at least solidify the core of the plot before we really move on. Looking at what we have…

It feels very much like we have a strongly oriented metaplot that is supported and built on by character plot and motivation, all of which ties up into a neat little package. This is a good thing. RPGs need more character driven work. So, since my outline sucked, but served its purpose, let us try and focus in for a moment on the main characters and what they want, which is logically where the plot will stem from.

Noemi: Is pretty clear. She has a dream and believes she can achieve, and works hard to that end. Although the road is rough, she has an iron will to see the matter through, even when things look their darkest. She WILL research the Disquiet and the clues and mysteries around it. She WILL make the journey to the Great Lord’s Throne to find the truth. She WILL NOT let anything stop her. When the power falls into the wrong hands/goes awry, she will free it, all in the name of her goal.

She has a background to support this and this is very easy to enforce throughout the game.

Mirek: Pretty much the opposite of Noemi in a lot of ways. He lost his sense of place in the world, along with friends, family and organizational support. Left adrift, Mirek sort of gave up, not having the will left to confront the things that haunt him. Beneath his placid exterior is still an angry, haunted young man who wishes life could return to what it once was. He needs support and he needs people to believe in. To that end, sticking him as the one with a romantic subplot (re: Eirwen) makes the most sense (and gives us a variety of motivators). In addition, as an old acquaintance of Noemi, he is sort of the ideal character to be swept up in the wake of her will and ambition and find some purpose or meaning to his life again.

Isolde: The one we currently haven’t worked a lot out on. Before I nodded off last night, I thought a bit about it and ultimately concluded that she probably wants a number of things. For starters, she wants her position back. She is loyal to the Empire and the people, but I don’t feel it is, utterly, a pure loyalty. She was hurt/angered by the way she was treated over a difficult decision and, although she does not hate the Empire for what it had to do, she resents the decision itself. To that end, it is no doubt that she longs for the recognition she once had and the recognition she deserves. As things progress however, and she sees the cost of reclaiming what she earned and deserves, she is able to overcome the pettiness and anger at being snubbed and make another difficult decision: to stand against the Empire and prove her loyalty to it and the people by not allowing it to go down the wrong path. If we play this right, she could be an ideal figure to ascend as the new ruler of the Empire. While she lacks Noemi’s raw, personal magnetism, she possesses a great deal of it, as well as the mind of a natural born leader.

God Kings: We really need to rough out the PCs here. Someone get to that? Anyhow, based on what I’m recollecting of Excal’s notes, I’m seeing the leader being… religiously oriented, I think. Probably a member of a lower, but devout noble household. He believes that the time for the prophecies is at hand but, unlike others, he believes that you must go out and do things to make them happen. Prophecy dependent on action, as it were. In addition, no doubt if he were successful, it would be a great amount of prestiege and value to his family. Thus it is that he went out to learn and explore and look for signs, and, along the way, encountered Erastus who contributed. I’m thinking that all the main PCs are somehow tied into the prophecy, which would explain how the various parties can encounter the God Kings and have it not be “fatal” encounters. In this sense, he is leading his group to groom the prophetic subjects, and perhaps nudge them in the right direction when needed. Once all hell breaks he loose, he himself steps up to take his place in his beliefs and prepare for the ultimate results.

That, I think, sums up our main PCs and sets up some spider webs over all the stuff we’ve discussed? Agree, Disagree, etc?

[Anthony Edward Stark]

Dude, I'm curious what you mean by variable and constant.  It sounds like you mean no matter which storyline you follow, it's always the same people.  But it also sounds like you mean that there should be ways to prevent selected people from being betrayers.

Basically, I'm opposed to players actions determining if someone leaves the party for plot reasons. If someone leaves the party it should be an important part of the plot and not something that the players actions have any effect on.

If the player really, really, really hates a character and heaps abuse upon them at every opportunity, the game should take the fucking hint.

[AndrewRogue]

Well. The real question to me is "Why can't the player determine important parts of plot and thus, by connection, cause that to happen?"

I mean, isn't interactivity, to some degree, the big thing games have going for them as a storytelling medium? I mean, we don't have to make a million branching paths or something, but the concept of repercussions for actions doesn't strike me as that odd or undesirable. I'm not necessarily promoting Bioware style abuse options here (I don't think the current structure is well geared for WRPG style play in that manner, although...), but I do not see why we can't have a couple of BIG IMPORTANT LIFE ALTERING decisions that would be wholly IC for the PC either way, but can have notable effects on the game's final standing. It gives the player some source of emotional involvement and might place some actual importance on the occasional multi-box dialogue box.

[Dark Holy Elf]

On player choices impacting the plot: I'm okay with one or two major ones, certainly, but remember it does mean that much more writing; let's be careful it doesn't dilute what we have. This makes me wary of, but not opposed, to the idea.

However, I dislike [arbitrary dialog option A = a PC dies/leaves!] situations. All you're doing is encouraging people to FAQ your game so they know to choose B.

Also I had character thoughts turning around in my head today at work, so I'll get 'em posted in a moment. Going to run with Excal's idea of having a character betray Noemi. I agree and think it's basically necessary in order to pull off Erastus' plan.

Oh and if it's not clear yet (it will be when I finish my next post), I am totally 100% cool with the party losing PCs. It happens. I've never considered it a douchebag move that Elly or Aeris or Spider or whoever leave the party. In fact, I find it refreshing to know that characters can actually leave, in too many RPGs it feels like as soon as you recruit someone, they're there, with you, guaranteed, for life, and both death and betrayal are impossible (or temporary, hi Crono/Nash).

[Dark Holy Elf]

Give her someone who is with her the entire time, someone who she, and we, can come to feel will support her come thick and thin, and then when it matters most, betrays her.

It could be Aurel, but I'm not sure his role in the plot entirely fits that anymore.  I'm actually thinking school friend now.  Someone who she's known for a long time, and who she thinks isn't there because of any of the grand things going on like everyone else she gets saddled with, but who's actually there for her.

My starting point.

So I got to thinking about betrayal, and asked myself, "why would someone who the hero thinks she can trust implicitly betray the hero?" The answer I decided on was "because she believes she's doing things in the hero's best interest".

Enter Samantha. The name can change to something setting-appropriate, for now I will use this fantasy dinosaur reference placeholder.

Samantha is a classmate of Noemi's in grad school, and the two may well go back further (even as far as the Crimson House orphanage?). A resonance adept, she was always smaller and weaker than Noemi and the latter looked out for her. She considers Noemi her most trusted friend and looks up to her. She may not join right at the start of the game (I think we'll have enough on our plate introducing Noemi, Erastus, and Isolde) but perhaps after a mission or two, Samantha will meet up with Noemi, scold her for leaving her behind, and remain with the party for (most of) the rest of the game. On several occasions she reaffirms her affection* for Noemi, and in general the writing should build her up as someone to be trusted.

I picture her having a slender build and using resonance for healing/buffing. Fights with a crossbow, which reflects her lack of physical strength.

Anyhoo, Erastus is a bad man and notices how devoted Samantha is to Noemi. Privately, on one or two occasions, he drops hints to her expressing worry for Noemi now that she appears to be the FP reborn. Samantha pries at Erastus, and he "reluctantly" tells her that he knows of a little-known part of the prophecy, that as part of what the FP reborn has to do, s/he has to die. (Sorta channelling WoT here, I'm aware.) Of course he's full of shit, and of course Samantha isn't going to realise this until too late.

So, as Noemi approaches a crucial part of her quest (shortly before the BIG REVEAL), Samantha sells her out to the Empire (or whoever works as a more appropriate foe). She makes a deal with imperial officer/leader XXXX, betraying the party's location in exchange for her and Noemi's assured safety. (I'm a little sketchy on how to make this bargain believable, but given how little I know of the situation surrounding what Noemi and the Empire are both trying to do at this exact moment, I'm going to leave those details for later.) The trap is sprung on Noemi and co. One of Noemi's other companions (maaaybe Aurel? Or someone yet to be determined) comes up with a cunning escape plan involving some skill only he has (pilotting, etc.) and as it seems Noemi will elude the empire's grasp and run to her "death", Samantha surprises and kills the pilot.

And there you go. Noemi gets to watch her best friend betray her and another friend die in front of her eyes. It is a sucker-punch, yes. It is also exactly what Erastus wants her to see. (Cue "just as planned!")

What happens to Samantha from there could go in a multitude of directions and I'm not really too concerned with that yet. Given that this treads into the lategame plot it may depend on what we decide to say about the game's themes.


What I like about this idea:

As mentioned, I like Excal's idea so I decided to run with it. I also think it makes for a neat parallel with Artur. Both turn villains out of love, but whereas in Artur's case it's because his love turned sour out of rejection and jealousy, in Samantha's case it's because she loved too much. She truly believes she's doing what is best for Noemi.

I like the fact that it's a delicious subversion of the Yuna-like sacrifice idea, and this ties into my enjoyment of Erastus' twisting of prophecy.

I like the fact that I think most players won't see it coming, but after the fact they will be wondering why they didn't. Samantha isn't the mysterious badass you half expect will betray you, she isn't jealous and her friendship for Noemi isn't in question.

So yeah. Thoughts?


*I'm still debating whether Samantha's love for Noemi is entirely platonic or not. I'm kinda leaning towards not, because I like the increased parallels with Artur that creates. However I am far from married to the idea and think the plot point works either way.

That said, for the record I am totally for there being at least one serious non-straight character in the cast because I think this is a minority that is badly underrepresented in RPGs and we should be progressive!


Next up, I want to start hashing out the God-King characters, since it seems like we've been doing a fine job of avoiding that so far. They're certainly where my thoughts are turning to next, but I want to get a better idea of how we see the "barbarian" culture first. Catching up with DL IAQ chat has helped some, so hopefully I'll have something tomorrow.

[Excal]

Actually, that works with something I've been considering since a half formed thought from Andy sparked my imagination.

Two things, I really like the idea of multiple endings, tied mostly to having major choices at the end of each of the three major paths.  Noemi's can actually come from Sam trying to dissuade her, and Mirek's I want to come from being given the Hero's Choice of having to choose between Ei and the party/world.  Not sure about Isolde yet, but it needs to go to the core of her character and motivations.

As for Artur.  Andy brought up a scene, kinda like where Felius and Levin scuffle in XF, where Mirek bitchslaps some sense into Artur (if we implement duels, this would totally be one) over what it means to love someone.  And, I kinda want to use this as the starting of Artur's path to redemption.  Not to undercut/prevent bad things happening to Ei, but so that he can have a chance at maturing and redeeming himself in the aftermath of that decision.

And having that as a mirror for a path where the issue is never addressed or resolved and things go horribly wrong?  I like that, a lot.

[Excal]

Alright, there's been one thing we've been needing for a while now (at least in my not very humble opinion) that we've been lacking.  A theme.  A simple statement or argument that is at the core of everything we do in this piece, and which will inform decisions later on (at least, in plot/character related issues.  Doesn't really do much with mechanics).  Sadly, I only have part of it, but I'll state it here so it can get chewed up tossed about and hopefully come back as something better.

Theme: To do with the subject of hope and betrayal.

Noemi is being molded by Erastus and forces about her to feel betrayed by he followers, her government, and even her mentor.
Mirek feels he has, through loving another, betrayed those near him, and must learn how to trust again.
Isolde is the anti-Erastus in that while she was shamed, she is still trusted, while Erastus is mistrusted in his glory.


Other things of note that follow from this.  Details on the prophecy of the God Kings.

So, why was an omnipotent master of reality defeated by mere mortals?  Simple, while the Usurpers fielded many champions they were insufficient.  But, two figures now known only as the Betrayer and the Assassin or Shadow Champion worked together to slay the FP in his home, where he ought to have been safe.  And just as the First Practitioner is expected to be reborn, so too are the Betrayer and the Dark Champion.

Crafty Erastus knows of this, and quietly molds Mirek to mirror the stories of the Betrayer, while he tries to pain Aurin with the Dark Champion brush.  Mirek works beautifully, but Aurin goes off the tracks after he "hires" Isolde to cover Noemi's party against another God King attempt to rescue the FPR so they can get around to doing their thing.  And Isolde fits the image of a secret assassin much better, taking up the mistaken role of Dark Champion.

Only other idea is that Isolde's path needs to be about trust somehow.  I suspect part of it may have to do with coming to a slow realization that Erastus is up to something and needs to be stopped.  But everytime she says this, her superiors stop her, and block any attempt to dirty his image.  Which leads to some issues when Aurin perishes thanks directly to one of Erastus' schemes.  It...  seems like her choice will be, not about forgiveness, but about staying professional and trusting her orders have meaning vs. giving in to her rage and deciding to break her orders.