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Author Topic: Season 56 rankings- making the final cut  (Read 11951 times)

superaielman

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Season 56 rankings- making the final cut
« on: January 22, 2010, 06:02:13 AM »
Alright, here's the final barrier to what gets into the RPGDL. There's three questions...

1. Have you played this game?

2. Rank it?

3. Why or why not?

Some good reasons not to rank a game...

A. Not enough voters at the RPGDL.
B. Too hard to compare them to other RPG characters (assuming you've seen them that is).
C. Not interesting enough (i.e. boring in a duel and not much to write about them)
D. Other (please specify)

2/3 support (66.66...%) is needed for a game to be ranked. Each character in the game also needs 66%- IE if Wild ARMs 5 is ranked with 95% of the voters but only 15% support ranking Volsung and the rest no/abstain on him, he won't be ranked.

The games this time:

Persona 4 bosses
Wild ARMs XF
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Nephrite

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Re: Season 56 rankings- making the final cut
« Reply #1 on: January 22, 2010, 06:09:34 AM »
P4 Bosses

Yes
Yes (Whatever people want to see, I am perfectly fine with anything.)

I think that Persona 4's popularity can really only go up. I would request that if anyone wants to say no on any specific boss to at least consider why other people think they're a good idea and at least consider changing their mind.



WAXF

No
Abstain

superaielman

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Re: Season 56 rankings- making the final cut
« Reply #2 on: January 22, 2010, 06:10:16 AM »
Persona 4 bosses

Yes
Yes

Killer,  Kunino. Killer is obvious, Izanami is the final boss and has more than enough plot to justify ranking her; she's the final boss from a somewhat successful recent game. I don't think she's Bluelike, she is on the  Souji/Yuna/Lady level of being very good but not unbeatable and I'm not too concerned about any draw/vote split. Kunino... sure, why not? He's got the plot and the boss form doesn't have anything to object to. EDIT: Izanami to no, an airtight formchain is probably too much.

Mitsuo the hero is a massive DL headache and pretty minor plotwise, I'll pass. Shadows are very good in game fights but meh to the idea of ranking them. Eye is the game's Necron so I'll also pass there.

Wild ARMs XF

Yes, partial
Yes

Strong group playership and a high interest game. I have plenty of concerns here, but that combo should keep it afloat at worst. It's easy enough to access as well, if you have the console. Rank the PC's, Rupert, Chelle, Weisheit, Charlton. No piedras. No to the final (We tend to wait on spoilery finals for a reason and we have several people playing this now), no to Asgard who is Bluelike. If I'm missing any other reasonable boss ranks, poke me and I'll edit it in. Those four are there for almost the entire game and have a fairly strong plot presence+fight more than once, so they make ideal ranks. Piedras... right, no. If he doesn't have any more plot than the few snippets he gets midgame, I'll pass.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2010, 02:02:17 PM by superaielman »
"Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself"- Count Aral Vorkosigan, A Civil Campaign
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<Ciato> he would be so kawaii as a chibi...

Monkeyfinger

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Re: Season 56 rankings- making the final cut
« Reply #3 on: January 22, 2010, 06:15:10 AM »
Persona 4 bosses
Yes
Yes
Rank PCs, Killer, Izanami, Ameno-Sagiri. No to Kunino-Sagiri and Mitsuo.

Wild ARMs XF
No
Abstain

SnowFire

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Re: Season 56 rankings- making the final cut
« Reply #4 on: January 22, 2010, 06:43:15 AM »
(Spoilers, duh.)

Wild ARMs XF
Yes, playing it right now.
Yes.
Rank PCs.  Abstain on Rupert.  Currently no to most other bosses.  Extended boss ramblings:

Rupert...  is weird, but neat enough that it may make up for it.  His speed does not approach 0 due to a Decelerate / Cancel Strike lynch mob as his support goes away, at least!  He doesn't really get credit for his speed tripling in the DL but it kind of evens out and he stays "fast" regardless which is actually fair.  Main worry is that, since Maximum Risk is completely and utterly badass if you damage him even a little, HP-respect changes how good a dueler he is *dramatically*.  He's only High Heavy with .7xPCHP but would be a strong Godlike with 1.3x PCHP, for example, since it's hard to double-turn him, leaving the OHKO (or the MP-bust or badass buffs/debuffs) as the main way of dealing with him.

Chelle...  well, see my most recent post in the WA:XF topic ( http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,719.msg94786.html#msg94786 ).  She loses to FE9 Oscar and FE9 Jill because they can't be shoved.  If given full Predator Strike credit she's insane, yes, but this is extremely avoidable in-game.  And likely shouldn't work on bosses (Anti-Knockback is on almost every boss).  The potential respect split between "Godlike" and "Low Middle" is too huge.

Eisen is a no.  Massive flavor collision here since the mechanic of "kill him and you lose!" translates really badly to the DL.

Weisheit...  since he's not listed near Asgard I assume he has a later form?  I'd vote no on the last form I saw, which is heavily dependent on movement and the kind of battlefield fought on, since if you can get an obstacle between you and Weisheit he's kinda helpless and doesn't have his OHKO damage.  

Asgard's already been covered.  This applies to everyone but WA:XF is a system that has Rob Turn and Cancel Strike and Decelerate.  It's easy to take into account, say, killer buffs or support spells - make boss HP worse if you have great buffs, make boss offense worse if cheap and easy HP+30% items are handed out like candy.  But XF makes me tempted to scale *speed* somehow to reflect the fact that Asgard does not really take turns unless you let him.  He's Ubergodlike naively, sure, and Light if given the worse-than-Kongol speed he deserves.  It's a mess I'd rather avoid.

Piedras feels like too minor a character.

Charlton...  I just fought the last fight with Charlton.  Way cool fight, but since I beat him without ever actually taking any offensive action against him, I have to lean "no" for ranking him.  His second form seems the most rankable - summoning zombie support is pretty cool and rewards MT - but also has the problem I mentioned about Asgard that once the lynch mob sets in those counters are the only turns he's seeing.  Makes it hard to get too close a feel for what his capabilities are (stat topic claims Energy Drain gets better the lower HP he has, but I only saw him use Energy Drain at very high HP before he lost all his turns).

The final...  I have a good guess as to who it is, and yeah, let's not rank that kind of spoiler.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2010, 06:57:43 AM by SnowFire »

Luther Lansfeld

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Re: Season 56 rankings- making the final cut
« Reply #5 on: January 22, 2010, 06:59:20 AM »
Persona 4

1. No
2. Yes to Killer, Mitsuo, Kunino. No to everyone else.

Wild Arms XF:
1. Yes.
2. Yes. TONY, Clarissa, Levin, Felius, Alexia, Ragnar, Labby, Chelle, Rupert, Charlton, Weisheit. No to everything else.

A special no segment to Piedras, who is just a random giant monster who appears and is really minor and you only fight him once and he can only function in sand! The Arena isn't sand! Okay, the last reason is bad.

Eisen is unrankable to me.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2010, 08:00:01 PM by Ciato »
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Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Season 56 rankings- making the final cut
« Reply #6 on: January 22, 2010, 06:59:51 AM »
Persona 4:

Rank De Killer. No to the eye and PC shadows. Abstain on other bosses... I feel unqualified to decide on whether their issues balance out their plot relevance so I'll leave that to the players. I am open to arguments on those three (Kunino, Izanami, Mitsuo), in either direction.

Wild Arms XF:

Rank the PCs (including Tony, not including generics). Rank Weisheit, Rupert, Chelle, Charlton. Not ranking Charlton is completely inane given his role in the plot. Same's basically true of Rupert and Weisy. Don't buy Snowfire's arguments on Chelle, and List backs me up that basically everyone seems to see her as Godlike, so her respect split if any seems pretty negligible (less than every single VP2 boss!).

I really badly want to rank Katrina at some point but agreed that it's too soon. Definitely a project of mine for the future. S/he is an awesome character and very memorable boss fight.

EDIT: And yeah, Asgard is "fuck no", Eisen and Piedras are "meh" even before Eisen's arguable issue. Samille and El Jackson are totally 100% rankable though. *nodnod*
« Last Edit: January 22, 2010, 07:11:41 AM by Dark Holy Elf »

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Luther Lansfeld

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Re: Season 56 rankings- making the final cut
« Reply #7 on: January 22, 2010, 07:10:36 AM »
I think that Persona 4's popularity can really only go up. I would request that if anyone wants to say no on any specific boss to at least consider why other people think they're a good idea and at least consider changing their mind.

And I think if you make a statement like this you should present a real argument besides 'its popularity can only go up'. The time when Persona 4 was ranked when I supported the bosses (and Tai gave me information on all of them) I never heard anything about the PC Shadows for example. I've seen the scenes where you fight them and I dunno. I feel it is the burden of proof of the person who wants these people ranked to make those arguments with regards to their ranking.
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Yakumo

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Re: Season 56 rankings- making the final cut
« Reply #8 on: January 22, 2010, 07:17:53 AM »
P4 bosses
Yes, I've played it.
Yes to Mitsuo, Killer, PC shadows except Rise, Kunino-Sagiri.  Abstain(leaning toward no, may change this) on the rest.

Personally, I don't understand why people don't want to rank the Shadows.  They're very plot important, most of them are interesting duelists, and they are clearly separate from the PCs when they fight you as shown by the scenes before and after the fight where both the PC and Shadow are in the same place at the same time.  I heard some rumblings kinda secondhand about plot fusion arguments but frankly, if anything has an argument for being a plot fusion it's the PCs themselves, not the Shadows.

Wild Arms XF
Played but never bothered to finish.
Abstain, I kinda feel like the drawing may be too low but not strongly enough to actually say no to it.

Excal

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Re: Season 56 rankings- making the final cut
« Reply #9 on: January 22, 2010, 07:35:33 AM »
P4 Bosses
Played
Yes - Mitsuo, Killer, Hippy
Abstain - Everything else.


XF
Played
Yes - PC Cast including Tony, Rupert, Charlston, Chelle, Weisheit.

Cmdr_King

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Re: Season 56 rankings- making the final cut
« Reply #10 on: January 22, 2010, 07:41:32 AM »
Persona 4 bosses
1.  Played it.
2. Rank 'em.
3. Adachi Tohru (aka Killer) only.  Abstain on Mitsuo's Shadow.  No to all other bosses.  As mentioned I'm increasingly iffy on Izanami, PC Shadows are... well, aspects of the PCs (nevermind that Chie and Yosuke's shadows are puny, unmemorable tutorial fights and Rise's is a plot battle), Kunino... well, I've always felt, watching that scene, that it's a funky case of possession, and if he doesn't count as that character, then he's Necron.  Ditto for Ameno.

Wild ARMs XF
1. Played it.
2. Rank it.
3. Rank everything.  If something objectionable is close to getting in, I'll edit in exclusions later.
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Dhyerwolf

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Re: Season 56 rankings- making the final cut
« Reply #11 on: January 22, 2010, 08:56:56 AM »
Persona 4 bosses
Yes to the Killer. Abstain on Kunino. No to anything else. I can see the argument for Izanami but Strong High Godlike w/ arguments to be too strong (Throw in some potential invincibility arguments to hurt my head!) combined with me wanting to completely forget any plot that started with Ameno makes me still say no. Oh, on PC Shadows...yeah, semi alternate versions of the PCs. Avril was something of a special case where...if you weren't going to rank both, you were going to get Light versus Godlike vote split, and IQA had notably more plot bearing than Shadow PCs.

Wild ARMs XF
Yes.
Yes. PCs, Chelle, Rupert, Charlton, Weisheit. Yes to Piedras for all that it seems pointless! No to anything else.

Snowfire, on the Decelerate/Cancel Lynch Mob, yeah, you probably could try to set up in this manner. Just...means that you need to be using Decelerate on a number of PCs (Given the numerous, numerous variety of things I'd rather have than Decelerate, it's a notable thing), and have a lot of spare MP for Levin to use. Given that I was generally using Levin's awesome speed and move and the ridiculousness that is Blast to pound away on the large number of enemies that generally inhabit bosses' areas, this would actually be a minus tradeoff considering the whole map, IMO. And then, you are focusing on attacking bosses with plain physical attacks which are lackluster damage wise and can miss! However, You do bring up an interesting point on Chelle versus other bosses, but...that still gives her 65% damage or something? Combine that with awesome speed and non-fail durability (at least in my eyes), and I'm not seeing the Middle/Godlike split. Throwing out PB against bosses (And there are some obviously where it's just not going to work-- Zophar/Myrias/Jade/other giant things aren't going to be pushed back) makes me think that she'd be a low Godlike, maybe a borderliner (She'd punish PC laden Heavy, and does fairly well overall against a good number of Godlike PC).
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Monkeyfinger

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Re: Season 56 rankings- making the final cut
« Reply #12 on: January 22, 2010, 09:29:28 AM »
Consensus that Izanami is good but not good enough to be overpowered has seemed pretty fucking airtight to me so far. Show me someone who has actually called her bluelike, rather than saying "well I could kinda sorta see it if you fudged the numbers like so".

IMO, either pay better attention to what exactly people are saying, or make your decision based off your own PERSONAL view of her ability, rather than what other people think that other voters MIGHT do.

DjinnAndTonic

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Re: Season 56 rankings- making the final cut
« Reply #13 on: January 22, 2010, 10:27:30 AM »
P4 Bosses
Yes
Yes

Killer, Izanami, Kunino, Mitsuo. Abstain on Shadows and Ameno.


WAXF
Partially finished
Yes to all PCs, Generics, Chelle, Charlton, Rupert, Weisheit, Final

I doubt we'll get the support here, but WAXF generics are awesome, so I figured I'd throw some support to them so I can say I did. Don't really have a problem with ranking spoiler boss here.

OblivionKnight

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Re: Season 56 rankings- making the final cut
« Reply #14 on: January 22, 2010, 11:46:09 AM »
Ok.  To preface and put some general thoughts on the bosses entirely, here we go.  I am going to go through each and every boss, and discuss them in an objective way for ranking.  Hopefully, this will help the people who haven't played the game an idea of what these bosses even represent.


MASSIVE SPOILERS, DUH!!!  I WILL BE USING THE FRUE NAMES OF CHARACTERS HERE!!!  YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED!!!  I WILL PROVIDE SPOILER NAMES FIRST IN LARGER FONT, SO READ AT YOUR OWN DISCRETION!!!


Bosses that Have a Strong Reason to be Ranked (a.k.a., the Ones I Really Think Should be Ranked Above all Others), in Descending Order

Bored Sociopath (Tohru Adachi)

The Plot: This is the most obvious rank.  The character is present from the start of the game (He's like the 5th person you meet).  He has large interactions with the party and the world, and is exceptionally important in understanding the story, especially enroute to the frue ending.  I have the least to say about her, since there should be no concerns about him, based on plot.  

The Good: No real interpretation issues (very straightforward).  Relatively decent boss.  Major plot player.  Seen throughout the game, doesn't come out of nowhere.

The Bad: Respect might vary slightly.  Possibly not as well-known as the next one, due to being on a technically optional ending.  


Hippie Jesus (Taro Namatame)

The Plot: Ok, first relatively odd one.  Hey-Zeus is present since the start of the game, at least in backstory.  You know the first murder was related to him, and you get glimpses of him throughout the game.  This culminates with the 2nd climax of the story, when a character is kidnapped.  As for his boss form, it is him.  Hey-Zeus's boss form is called Kunino-Sagiri, the Goddess of the Fog.  It has his same voice, attitude.  Building it into the entire plot, where Ameno-Sagiri is the God of Fog and the direct result of Cabbage Man's push to annihilate the world, Hey-Zeus is the subservient (hence Goddess instead of God) - indirectly, he is assisting Cabbage Man in creating the fog.  The boss form is not his Shadow - it is him.  One of the stated powers of the persona is that it can manifest the way you want it.  Fueled by Hey-Zeus's desire to "save" people, he becomes a "Messiah", with a halo and giving a peace sign.  Shadows, as stated, ARE the Persona of a person, in it's most basic form, and Hey-Zeus doesn't let them take over him - he clearly knows after battle what he did.  He used the power of the persona to become what he thought he was - it didn't overtake him, he clearly was using it and in perfect mind ("I...I'm going to save her!  Don't interfere!").  There's also a huge infodump after the fight, and you realize he was a bigger player than you thought - things do piece together, and he's vital in deciphering who the real villain is.

The Good: Memorable boss fight.  Relatively important player.  The ONLY non-Shadow boss on this list that everyone faces (so he has the MOST exposure, no matter what), so if you're looking for major plot bosses with the most exposure, this is him.  HIPPIE FREAKING JESUS.

The Bad: Respect varies a bit, and doesn't probably translate as well as you'd expect.  Not as present as Cabbage Man is in the plot.


Arkham Asylum Inmate (Izanami)  

The Plot: The orchestrator of the game, Deadite is very akin to Beatrice in Wild ARMs 3.  You meet Deadite as the 4th person in the game, and you also see her in your dreams (the fog battle near the start of the game - you see the outline of him).  Talk to the Attendant, and he'll actually provide hints on the identity of Deadite.  She is alluded to throughout the game.  She is the most obscure major boss, but easier to find than Loki without a guide.  Not too much to say else, as the plot is generally straightforward here.

The Good: Strong boss.  Important, final boss of the game.  Relatively interesting for a Godlike boss, and generally not broken.  Very straightforward boss to interpret, overall.  

The Bad: Is relatively obscure compared to the other two.  May be construed by some interpretations as too powerful.    


Bosses that have a good case for being ranked, but are not as important as the aforementioned ones, and thus, can be done without

Visine Commercial (Ameno-Sagiri)

The Plot: More of a mechanism than a player, Ben Stein was created secondary to the desires of a certain guy with a love for cabbage.  Ben is NOT a part of a crazy Goddess, but a being created to carry on the will of the "test subject".  As noted, the plot on Ben is not very deep for it itself, though it is important to the story.  It is more of a summoned force, akin to Cloud of Darkness (in fact...very much like Cloud of Darkness).  

The Good: Great, interesting boss (loses to PCs, beats bosses, in Godlike!).  Exceptionally memorable fight.  

The Bad: May be construed as too powerful.  Not extremely big on plot throughout the game.  Not a part of the required ending, so seen less than the Hippie.


Bosses that I honestly don't feel strongly about, but won't be exceptionally irked if they make it in

Fetus (Shadow Mitsuo)

The Plot: Fought at the height of the first major climax of the game. I'd like to state again that Mitsuo and Mitsuo's Shadow ARE separate.  Mitsuo rejects his shadow, unlike the rest, and they are clearly different (similar to the PC shadows).  Not much else to say here.

The Good: Exceptionally memorable and interesting (as Djinn said, a great mascot of sorts).  

The Bad: Not a particularly important plot person (the Shadow...the character, Mitsuo, is...barely relevant early, kind of mid-game).



Bosses I have no really support for ranking

The Other Shadows (Shadow Yosuke, Chie, Yukiko, Kanji, Rise, Teddie, Naoto)

The Plot: Clearly, the Shadows are GONE after the fights, becoming the character personas (as the plot states).  These are more akin to dungeon bosses than major plot bosses.  While very interesting, and generally very memorable (except for Shadow Yosuke and Chie, the two here I would be the absolute LEAST in support of), it's very akin to ranking, say, all the Brionac members in Wild ARMs 4.  

The Good: Interesting and generally memorable.

The Bad: Not heavily important to the plot.



So, where do I THINK we should go with these?

The most important ranks: Sociopath, Hippie, Inmate.

Good, but not necessary rank: Visine

Ok, but not necessary rank: Fetus

Eh, probably not good to rank: The other Shadows


So, I meant to get this out earlier for people to look at, but my internet crashed around midnight ;_;  I hope that helps.


Anyway:


Persona 4 Bosses
Rank: Sociopath, Hippie, Inmate.  Abstain on Fetus and Visine (may change later).  No to the other bosses.

Wild ARMs XF
Rank: Clarissa, Felius, Labyrintha, Tony, Levin, Ragnar, Alexia, SAMUEL L JACKSON, Rupert, Eisen, Chelle, Piedras, Charlton, Weisheit, Fear Clymsian

Boot Asgard (Bluelike, as I have heard everyone say)
« Last Edit: January 23, 2010, 09:58:38 PM by OblivionKnight »
[11:53] <+Meeple_Gorath> me reading, that's a good one

[19:26] * +Terra_Condor looks up. Star Wars Football, what?
[19:27] <+Terra_Condor> Han Kicks First?
[19:27] <%Grefter-game> Vader intercepts.
[19:27] <%Grefter-game> Touchdown and Alderaan explodes in the victory

dude789

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Re: Season 56 rankings- making the final cut
« Reply #15 on: January 22, 2010, 02:17:18 PM »
P4: Rank Killer, both Sagiris, Izanami and Mitsuo. Abstain on PC shadows.
WA XF: PCs and Rupert, Chelle, Weisheit, Charlton. Abstain on everything else.

OblivionKnight

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Re: Season 56 rankings- making the final cut
« Reply #16 on: January 22, 2010, 03:00:26 PM »
In regards to MF's concept of Deadite not being too powerful...well, let's see if I can do this:

Average HP = 540 (you could argue this goes up with HP boosters by an average of about 15% as some are storebought, to 620 average HP - or you could argue just using Kanji/Chie/Yosuke, a good party with the 4 highest HP totals along with Soji in the group)
Average Damage = 400 (to randoms)
+Charges, Kajas, Kundas = ~1000 (to randoms - obviously, these take a turn, so factoring that in, about 800)
Average per turn = 3200

All forms of Deadite act last, so I am assuming they will here.

First form is 3500 HP, so 44% PCHP to most (defenses probably place her at about 60%, and evade of 30% probably gets her close to 80% on average).  Assuming the first form is killed in one hit (it is relatively frail if you take the "standard" view of boss HP or a harsher view), it gets 3 invincible actions, so Mind Charge-Megidolaon-Megidolaon for 1150 damage (2.13x PCHP or 1.85x PCHP).  I've never seen her use Mind Charge in this state, but I have been told she can.  The form halves physicals and immunes light/dark, so it might provide some more survivability in certain instances.

Second form is 8000 HP, so exactly 100% PCHP to most.  Defenses and evasion are worse than the first form, so boost to about 120% total, all factored in.  Adds electric absorption to the physical and light/dark defenses from above (poor Kanji ;_;).  Assuming she dies in 2.5 turns as per average, she gets off 4 attacks (double-acting).  She gets 2 off of full HP attacks, 2 off of 50% HP attacks.  Her best is 620 (Mind Charge-Kuro Ikazuchi) in both phases (2.3x PCHP or 2x PCHP), assuming you don't allow full free reign of attacks.

Her total damage off both forms is 2400, assuming she gets off only the 5 aforementioned sequences.  This totals 4.44x PCHP or 3.87x PCHP.  She has other tricks (status, stat-breaks) as well.

A strong Godlike, but, assuming this is how normal (i.e., not me) people see things working out, not too different from some other Godlikes we have.

Feel free to correct me if I missed anything major in the normal views of things.
[11:53] <+Meeple_Gorath> me reading, that's a good one

[19:26] * +Terra_Condor looks up. Star Wars Football, what?
[19:27] <+Terra_Condor> Han Kicks First?
[19:27] <%Grefter-game> Vader intercepts.
[19:27] <%Grefter-game> Touchdown and Alderaan explodes in the victory

Taishyr

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Re: Season 56 rankings- making the final cut
« Reply #17 on: January 22, 2010, 04:10:13 PM »
P4 Bosses: (Spoilers. You expecting different?)


Yes to Izanami, Ameno-Sagiri, Kunino-Sagiri, Killer, and The Hero/Fetus. Abstain leaning no on Shadows.

The fights with the latter two are memorable and neither are overpowered to me (even with interps more in line with the rest of the DL). Izanami's a mid-high Godlike, so is Ameno (if he isn't lower. I forget when limits tick in for him). I can't really object to either.

Hard yes to Kunino, Killer, HeroFetus. All three are NPCs presented through the plot, each has oh I don't know -an entire dungeon- devoted to taking them specifically down to end the investigation, and one that's made by their own will arguably (well, not Kunino, but Kunino cheated kinda) (so does Izanami), each has a major impact, each have legit dueling forms.

Okay. Shadows. For one, as a reminder, they -become the Personas- that the cast uses. I have issues there alone. Yes, in the Dream World they're separate (and Izanami plot at the end makes it querulous as to whether or not they're actually based off of the people they're Shadows of, or just mockeries/what people want to see). But... while there's plot behind each one/memorability, there's just issues regarding whether or not they actually are the PCs. Yes, they can stand apart from the PCs, but I'm not sure they're independent of each other enough. Abstain.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2010, 04:14:37 PM by Taitoro »

Monkeyfinger

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Re: Season 56 rankings- making the final cut
« Reply #18 on: January 22, 2010, 04:14:53 PM »
OK: Average damage assuming Hassou Tobi is more like 300. Stat mods would roughly double that factoring in the wasted turns, yeah.

OblivionKnight

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Re: Season 56 rankings- making the final cut
« Reply #19 on: January 22, 2010, 05:19:43 PM »
300?  I was assuming it's higher, and was factoring in a 12.5% HP loss (since Arms Master on Yoshitsune is easy), and the damage it deals is 1000 or so.  So 1000+250*3 (assuming boosted offense) = 580 or so average, 510 assuming a HP penalty for Hassou Tobi.  I actually underestimated that a bit, as with boosts it is about 1000 (900 or so?). This barely matters, as the first form still dies in one hit to most, with the second one still only getting 2 attacks off.

Unless I'm mis-interpreting. 
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Jo'ou Ranbu

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Re: Season 56 rankings- making the final cut
« Reply #20 on: January 22, 2010, 05:26:11 PM »
The DL-legal average -factoring in- Hassou Tobi is like 279. How higher than that it gets depends on what you factor and how - Auto-Mataru is fair game for a three-turn average (you only need it on Souji, but not sure you can factor both that and Hassou Tobi together in the same turn - even if Yoshi can have Auto-Mataru, I'm pretty sure it'd be a mess to do), but there are various factors as well - higher levels lower all of Izanami's stats, lower levels (which many people seem inclined to take, sometimes to dangerous degrees due to LitGS syndrome in P4) will boost her more than the mere HP/defense averages would imply. There's some degree of leeway there - although I'm firmly in the camp of "Izanami besides the invinco and formchaining is actually kinda frail", but I'm also harsher on bosses than almost anyone in the group.
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OblivionKnight

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Re: Season 56 rankings- making the final cut
« Reply #21 on: January 22, 2010, 05:34:12 PM »
Oh, I see - I'm not assuming the DL-legal average - I'm assuming a more in-game one, auto-Tarus, kaja/kunda, assuming people skip keeping the Boosts on characters for the Amp and a +50% accessory for more damage.  

Not that I'm arguing for taking it against less, but I figured I was going with what normal people do >_>  There's a reason I hold different views!  Without them, yeah, 300 or so boosted to 600 or so.  

Also, you can easily to Hassou Tobi and Auto-Taru on the same turn, even without it on Yoshi - just start with another persona with it out, switch to Yoshi same turn.  Yay persona switching!
« Last Edit: January 22, 2010, 05:35:54 PM by OblivionKnight »
[11:53] <+Meeple_Gorath> me reading, that's a good one

[19:26] * +Terra_Condor looks up. Star Wars Football, what?
[19:27] <+Terra_Condor> Han Kicks First?
[19:27] <%Grefter-game> Vader intercepts.
[19:27] <%Grefter-game> Touchdown and Alderaan explodes in the victory

Yakumo

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Re: Season 56 rankings- making the final cut
« Reply #22 on: January 22, 2010, 06:55:37 PM »
Persona 4 bosses
Oh, on PC Shadows...yeah, semi alternate versions of the PCs. Avril was something of a special case where...if you weren't going to rank both, you were going to get Light versus Godlike vote split, and IQA had notably more plot bearing than Shadow PCs.

This is exactly the kind of thing I was talking about earlier.  The PCs and Shadows are very clearly separate at the time you fight the shadows.  I have no idea where you people are coming up with "alternate versions of the PCs" nonsense.  If anything, the PCs themselves are the plot fusions and that's if and only if you see the shadows transforming into their Persona.  Now, if you have a different reason for not wanting them in that's one thing, but "alternate version" or "plot fusion" arguments alone don't really sit right with me unless you can explain a good reason why.

As for plot bearing, while the plot is that you're trying to find the killer, after fighting two or three of the PC shadows I'd say it's at least pretty clear to virtually all players that you're going to be facing shadows of pretty much anyone that goes into the TV.  They're more a plot device than plot important, admittedly, but they are a part of the story and don't just pop out of nowhere.  I can't comment on IQA's plot relevance but I'd certainly say the PC shadows have more than the average dungeon boss.  Enough for you?  Maybe, maybe not, but it's there.

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Re: Season 56 rankings- making the final cut
« Reply #23 on: January 22, 2010, 07:10:47 PM »
The argument can be made, of course, that the PC's Shadows are independant entities who take their shape from the fears and insecurities of the PCs.  But even if so, that these shadows are conquered and rendered subservient when that PC awakens their persona, whatever their original existence, is very clear.  Given the utter uselessness of humans in the game's terms (ie, you MUST have a Persona to fight shadows), the logical conclusion is that we, in fact, already RANKED the PC's Shadows, in the forms of the Persona-wielding PCs.
So I'd say that, if you want to use the Shadows as an alternate form of the PCs, whatever, knock yourself out, but that's not a compelling reason to rank them AGAIN.  While ranking the same character twice is something that's happened before in the DL (IQA, Id), I'd argue those should be exceptions, not a common occurance.

Besides which, while Persona 4 is acceptable on the draw, I don't think adding half a dozen extra bosses to it is justifiable either.  But that sort of ranking standard is something you can argue back and forth all damned day so I'd rather not lead with it.
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Talaysen

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Re: Season 56 rankings- making the final cut
« Reply #24 on: January 22, 2010, 07:55:16 PM »
Regarding P4 final: My average damage against the final was ~460 post-buffs/Debilitate and not factoring in backlash for Hassou Tobi/etc..  With just buffs (due to Auto-Masuku existing), it's ~325, without it's ~230.  Factoring HP backlash from physical skills this goes down to ~330, ~235, and ~165 respectively.  Adding in Charges increase the damage about 10% because it only affects three people in the cast (two of which I didn't even use).  I don't think I was using Amp+accessory (just Boost+Amp), so factoring that in... ~470, ~330, ~235 and ~360, ~255, ~180.

So using Amp+accessory with counting backlash and Charge for Souji (and no one else because I didn't use them), ~1370 damage per round.  Leads to ~0.95 and ~2.35  durabilities (post-defenses).  First form probably gets 2HKOd at worst in Godlike and often OHKOd, while the second form probably gets 2-3HKOd.  Halving physical and later absorbing electric does help though.

Looking at the stat topic and factoring in defenses, it looks like OK's above numbers vastly underrate the first form's defenses (400 -> 150 reduction => 0.35 PCHP from my numbers) and overrate the second form's defenses (400 -> 250 => 1.6 PCHP).  Assuming the stat topic's correct there anyway (and I could buy those being about right).  I'm pretty sure part of that is due to LEVEL and not actual defense scores, so it ends up kind of weird at different levels.  I was only a little under the stat topic levels, for the record.

Anyway, after looking at the numbers, I'm kneejerking her as rankable but a very good Godlike (invincibility turns on an HP buffer help a lot).  Not completely sure though.

(Assuming normal interps here as well, since mine are a bit different.)

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Persona 4 bosses
1. Have you played this game?
Yes.

2. Rank it?
Abstain

Wild ARMs XF
1. Have you played this game?
Yes.

2. Rank it?
Yes.
Rank: All PCs, Rupert, Charlton, Weisheit, Chelle
Abstain: Other bosses.
Don't Rank: Generics.