Season 56 rankings- making the final cut

[Starphoenix das Helpoemer]

Persona 4

1. Yes

2. Yes to the Killer, Kunino-Sagiri, Mitsuo the Hero, and Izanami. Abstain on the PC Shadows, but note that they're technically similar to Mitsuo the Hero. No to Ameno-Sagiri for Necron-esque out of nowhere state of being.

Wild Arms XF

1. Yes

2. Yes to the PC's (except poor Tony, who is damn near Puny), Charlton, Rupert, Weisheit, and Chelle. Abstain on Asgard. No to Eisen (Wormface?), Zortroa Kinship, and the Final Boss.

Also a no to Tony for Spoilery reasoning.

...for possibly already being ranked under a different name... like Luceid

[Excal]

Definately in favour of going with Mitsuo, and not Mitsuo's Shadow.  Yes, I understand the plot reasons why that's not really how it is.  But as mentioned before, the difference is unimportant and technical, and it's nice to have someone down as someone.  Especially when it's the first thing that'll come to mind.

Especially when you get to the whole thing of the difference between the shadow and the person being murky as well.

[Talaysen]

Agree with OK.  8bit Hero should be ranked as Mitsuo's Shadow or Shadow Mitsuo, whichever one was used in-game.  It is distinctly NOT Mitsuo, since Mitsuo is actually in that scene as well.

[Monkeyfinger]

Agree with OK.  8bit Hero should be ranked as Mitsuo's Shadow or Shadow Mitsuo, whichever one was used in-game.  It is distinctly NOT Mitsuo, since Mitsuo is actually in that scene as well.

[OblivionKnight]

 www.giantbomb.com/mitsuo-kubo/94-9835/


The actual Shadow version face-pic. 

[Dhyerwolf]

Mitsuo's the one with the actual plot basis for ranking, so go with Mitsuo. Besides, you're not me, yes I am, no you're not, yes I am: Shadows are an aspect of the person anyways.

[OblivionKnight]

But Mitsuo is an NPC.  Mitsuo's Shadow fights.  

I don't want to be so technical, but...despite the shadows being an aspect of the person, they are clearly just that - an aspect.  Mitsuo clearly rejects his shadow at the end - hence, they are not really the same.  The PCs accept theirs, and hence gain them as their persona, i.e., become whole.  Mitsuo does not, so plotwise/combatwise, that shadow is not him.

This is one of the reasons I am not all gung-ho for ranking it - it toes the line for ranking NPCs, which has standardly not been done.

[Dhyerwolf]

A large rank of the 8bitHero's ranking it based on the plot that Mitsuo has. The Shadow itself doesn't have the plot bearing for ranking.

[Excal]

You say you don't really want to, and given your reasons, I'm still in disagreement that the need is there, either.  Honestly, there's two reasons as to why Mitsuo's shadow is important and getting ranked.  One is that it's a major and memorable fight.  The other is that Mitsuo is important to the plot, and helps to anchor the mid game.  If you take away Mitsuo, then all you have is some random P3 Lunar Boss.  Some of those are also pretty damned distinct and memorable, and the first person to suggest ranking one will get laughed out of the joint because they will never, ever, in a million years get ranked.  And I would be shocked if at least half the people who said no out of hand didn't use plotless space fleas as part of their justification.

I mean, hell.  By the logic you're using, Lily should not be ranked when MK2 is.  Lily does nothing but give orders, so it's clearly Whim that should be ranked.  Except, I can't imagine that argument gaining traction when the base of it all comes from Lily calling the shots.  It's the same here, the core is still Mitsuo.  No Mitsuo, no Mitsuo's shadow.  There is no hero to be born from his darkness.  And even if it is just an aspect of him, it's still roughly the same as Jecht and the P3/4 cast where it's aspects of them that are doing all of the fighting, and yet it's the character that's named.  Yukari instead of Isis, Akihiko instead of Ceasar.  That kind of thing.

So...  yeah.  I can see where the argument is coming from about NPCs and such.  But I feel that both cases where it's being applied in the case of P4 are cases of being overly critical with logic that isn't sound.

[OblivionKnight]

I do not disagree with the fact that The Shadow of Mitsuo is memorable or that the fight is important to the plot.  That is the reason why I detailed that it's not a horrible rank (very similar to, but better than, the Ull situation from Valkyrie Profile: Silmeria).  However, when DarkHolyElf stated that it should be ranked by the most recognizable name, there is a bit of an odd conundrum here.  I'm very much for ranking characters over battles.  However, I do focus on the character being ranked - this is an odd circumstance, as there's a bit of a case that the two are equal - however, if Mitsuo were, say, in control of the Shadow, I wouldn't have a problem.  I don't support ranking Lyon (correction - proper grammar is "didn't") from Fire Emblem 8 because Lyon is never fighting in-game, it's Fomortiss using his body.  I consider Lyon in the DL to be Fomortiss, and thus allow the final form of Fomortiis for this.     

I cannot comment, nor will I comment, on Mana Khemia: Fall of Alchemy, as I have not played the game. 

In Shin Megami Tensei: Persona 3, one of the character powers that awakens is the power of the persona.  This is an aspect of them they are completely (generally) in control of.  They can access it when they want, how they want.

I am not saying that The Shadow of Mitsuo is devoid of plot development, and I never have.  Mitsuo is not in control of his shadow before or after the battle.  There's a Final Fantasy Tactics character (and I cannot remember who specifically) we have ranked that people have argued about ranking the demon form only, because it seems to them that the power of that character arises from the demon purely.  Or not allowing skills because they are associated with a power that is not theirs, is focused on the environment, etc. 

It is a, probably in the end, very minor distinction, but I feel it opens up the door for very odd arguments that people have stated, in the past, they are eager to avoid.  It makes me think of ranking Zelos from Skies of Arcadia, and using the final, final fight where he's merged with Ramirez.  Yes, the battle does say it is Ramirez being fought, but it's Zelos in control of Ramirez's body, there, plotwise.  It's a bit of the opposite take on this case, but it's a relatively similar concept.   

[Cmdr_King]

If you take away Mitsuo, then all you have is some random P3 Lunar Boss

Untrue.  Even without Mitsuo, the shadow has personality.  Dialogue.  Even without actually being Mitsuo, it in its own way shares his history and position in the plot, despite also being a separate thing.  Coupled with the rather unusual gimmick and overall competence as a battle, I'd definitely call Mitsuo the #2 idea from the game.

(not that I'm changing my abstain vote.)

[Monkeyfinger]

If you take away Mitsuo, then all you have is some random P3 Lunar Boss.

why 8bit hero shouldn't be ranked at all and this whole debate should have no reason to exist.txt

[DjinnAndTonic]

Just want to note that I don't care what we rank him as, so long as we rank him.

I can see both arguments. But regardless, Mitsuo himself is pretty big in the plot, and his Shadow is a large portion of his plot and character development. I'd rank both of them if Mitsuo himself had a battle form. He doesn't, so just ranking the Shadow is fine. Different from the PCs' Shadows? Slightly, since the PCs absorb their Shadows. "Shadow Mitsuo Kubo" isn't a huge difference from simply "Mitsuo Kubo"... and his art isn't even wildly different either. (Though personally, I'd rather use some art of his pixellated self!)

The DL 'mascot' flavor is strong with this one.

[Nephrite]

Why does Mitsuo's rejection of his shadow matter at all? It was still a part of him, even if it's a part that he doesn't want to believe is there. If he had denied and somehow become a party member would this argument honestly be different? The Shadow is part of him he rejected... I don't see why this is an issue. Call it "Mitsuo the Hero" if it's such a big deal.

[Dhyerwolf]

The DL 'mascot' flavor is strong with this one.

Teddie he is not.

[DjinnAndTonic]

I think some wires were crossed here, Dhyer.

[NotMiki]

P4
Yes
Rank 'em all.

WA:XF
No
Abstain

[Excal]

If you take away Mitsuo, then all you have is some random P3 Lunar Boss

Untrue.  Even without Mitsuo, the shadow has personality.  Dialogue.  Even without actually being Mitsuo, it in its own way shares his history and position in the plot, despite also being a separate thing.  Coupled with the rather unusual gimmick and overall competence as a battle, I'd definitely call Mitsuo the #2 idea from the game.

(not that I'm changing my abstain vote.)

Except that this argument is completely missing the point of Persona 4.  I mean, how many times did it ram the point home that your Shadow is you, and you are your Shadow, no matter how much you want to deny it.  And that only bad things happen if you do not accept it as a part of yourself.  At least a half a dozen times.

Mitsuo = Shadow Mitsuo.  Shadow Mitsuo = Mitsuo.  They are one and the same.  Just that Shadow Mitsuo is the part of himself that he refuses to acknowledge exists, the worst part of him.  It is a central premise of the game that the Shadows and the people they are shadows of are the same damned person.

If the argument is solely based on the fact that Mitsuo is so damned retarded and such a contemptable human being that he either does not get that he must face himself, or cannot bring himself to face himself, then the concept is not invalidated by the one person who failed when you have, every PC but one who does do this.  That's six people, all of whom do end up accepting the whole idea.

Let's see...  Here's a better example.  Rei in weretiger.  Do you consider that to be Rei?  Or would you have that relabled as Berserk Rei, or Weretiger Rei?  Because that's effectively what you're looking at here.  Or anything else where the character in question is in a berserker rage, or otherwise not in control of themself, but not controlled by someone else.

[Meeplelard]

Except that this argument is completely missing the point of Persona 4.  I mean, how many times did it ram the point home that your Shadow is you, and you are your Shadow, no matter how much you want to deny it.  And that only bad things happen if you do not accept it as a part of yourself.  At least a half a dozen times.

Just want to add in that the game makes it VERY CLEAR that the last point is true.  The Shadows are harmless in and of themselves, beyond the psychological effects, and EVERYTIME, the Shadows only take on a genuinely dangerous manifestation when the character openly denies that aspect of themselves.

In fact, the game goes out of its way to have your current PCs try to stop (and fail miserably) the character in question from yelling the "YOU'RE NOT ME!" line that basically is the Berserk Button for Shadows.   Even subtly denying this fact isn't enough (as in,  simply just being bewildered at this factor isn't enough, as most of the characters are more like "What's going on?" at first before shouting the "YOU'RE NOT ME!")

I seriously think people are overlooking just how much its going to matter.
Mitsuo = Shadow Mitsuo; ranking him as "Mitsuo", I'm sure most people who vote are smart enough to at least make the connection, one way or another, that he's ranked based on his Shadow form.   That's the only viable form he has.  It'd be one thing if you fought Shadow Mitsuo, then later you fought Mitsuo in a semi-plot fight where he's using a Persona, but he's incredibly weak...you'd almost have a point there due to vote split.  But that's not the case; it really is akin to Jecht and Braska's Final Aeon.  Not identical, but its a close enough scenario to just equate the two and move on.

We have Jenna ranked as "Jenna" for example even though her final boss form is "Hari hara" IIRC or heck, just about every DDS boss ranked (...which includes all of Heat as well <.<?) is the same way.  We have Myria ranked as "Myria" even though her boss form is "Goddess" in BoF1.  Fou-lu is never called "Fou-lu" in Boss form, but "Astral" and "Tyrant."

Really, people are overthinking the scenario here, and its vaguely insulting to others; just ranking Mitsuo is enough for people to figure things out, so long as they remember "No NPCs".  Or are you guys seriously suggesting a semantic in a scenario like this is going to make a huge difference?

[superaielman]

Boo to Radiant Dawn not making it this far. Maybe next time.

Radiant Dawn really needs more writers before it gets ranked; I'd have fought pretty damn hard to keep it out this time. The writer's numbers are bad enough where I'd be seriously worried about having to do them myself or someone else who hasn't played the game.

[Lance]

Boo to Radiant Dawn not making it this far. Maybe next time.

Radiant Dawn really needs more writers before it gets ranked; I'd have fought pretty damn hard to keep it out this time. The writer's numbers are bad enough where I'd be seriously worried about having to do them myself or someone else who hasn't played the game.

Fascinating. I'm still marginally disappointed, though. Sue me.

[superaielman]

Feel free to write more to help cover it! We always need help there.

XF spoilers/edit:

Tony is Lucied isn't he? Seems like he's DNR bait.

This closes tomorrow night,so get your votes in now!

Oh, thanks Meeple. Never mind.

[Meeplelard]

To super's spoiler.

In what sense?  If you mean gameplay wise, where he's just total trash dog PC, you...wouldn't be far from the truth.  If you mean "Tony is the Lucied of the XF world" then no, that's not true.  I don't think any of the Guardians make a genuine appearance in XF, actually.  The idea OF Guardians gets mentioned, but I don't think any of them appear or are referred to by name.

[Pyro]

Not ranking him would be a travesty. He is awesome.

To Meeple:
Tony is almost certainly Lucied. While it doesn't state so outright, there are several dropped hints that this is so. It is... a little less obvious than Clarissa and Alexia's switcharoo, but still has enough bones thrown at it (hahahaha) where you can figure it out. Note the final battle cutscene where the Clymisian is shocked that Tony stopped one of her attacks. Also note Tony's general obsession with Clarissa (the rightful Medium Princess) and being a too clever. Combine that with some talk of Lucied by random NPCs and you have a pretty clear picture.

I don't think this makes him any less rankable, honestly.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Pretty much agree with Pyro. Mm, for a parallel, it'd be like not ranking Rune because we already have Noah ranked. Heck, maybe it's closer to not ranking Cid Highwind because we already have Cid Pollendina ranked, because every Filgaia does appear to be a completely different world, after all. Granted, this argument could be used to rank Lucied 1, 2, and 3 separately, but given how light all of them are on plot, fuck that. Tony has several distinctions which recommend ranking him and not other separate Lucieds: (a) he isn't called Luceid, (b) he is a permanent PC, (c) he looks totally different than "Luceid" does in the other games (white ordinary looking dog instead of magical black wolf). This is assuming they even are definitely the same, which while likely isn't confirmed/canon.