Author Topic: Season 56 rankings- making the final cut  (Read 11451 times)

AndrewRogue

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Re: Season 56 rankings- making the final cut
« Reply #25 on: January 22, 2010, 08:06:53 PM »
P4 Bosses
Played it?: Yes
Rank: Killer, Kunino-Sagiri, Mitsuo the Hero, Ameno-Sagiri
Abstain: Inazami
No: PC Shadows

Having mulled it over, I've concluded to shoot down the PC shadows this period. I still support them being ranked. However, I feel that influxing that many bosses at once is a little overboard, especially since I'm having issues recalling P4s actual numbers at the moment. If someone can show me it is at least middle to upper middle tier draw, I'll consider changing to an Abstain or a Rank, but for the moment, I'm going to encourage considering splitting it into a third ranking period for those of us who do want to see the PC shadows. It isn't like we're always complaining about there not being a ton to rank anyway.

WA:XF
Played it?: No
Rank: Abstain

Dhyerwolf

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Re: Season 56 rankings- making the final cut
« Reply #26 on: January 22, 2010, 08:31:20 PM »
Consensus that Izanami is good but not good enough to be overpowered has seemed pretty fucking airtight to me so far. Show me someone who has actually called her bluelike, rather than saying "well I could kinda sorta see it if you fudged the numbers like so".

IMO, either pay better attention to what exactly people are saying, or make your decision based off your own PERSONAL view of her ability, rather than what other people think that other voters MIGHT do.

2 PC HP damage under (a really pointless in game) Invincibility paired with what would be a headache form chain? Yeah, maybe people haven't been running around calling her Bluelike, but on the other hand, where has she been tested for people to really get a very solid handle on her performance. So yeah, generally based on what other people generally allow in terms of form chaining and similar things, but my gut reaction is that she ends up very powerful and a really big headache. Enough for me to no her given that I have other issues with her.
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Re: Season 56 rankings- making the final cut
« Reply #27 on: January 22, 2010, 09:49:17 PM »
She's in List right now, Dhyer.


Also...thanks Tal.  There's a reason I don't do math >_>  Levels do make that difference.  Although her first form actually does have crazy END - 85 IIRC.  It's why the HP are low.

I don't think the form-chain is questionable or a headache at all.  It's...clearly a form-chain, and people have ignored them before.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2010, 01:16:10 AM by OblivionKnight »
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Re: Season 56 rankings- making the final cut
« Reply #28 on: January 22, 2010, 11:43:17 PM »
Persona 4 bosses
1. No
2. Yes
Who to rank: Abstain

Wild ARMs XF
1. No
2. Yes
Who to rank: Abstain

Boo to Radiant Dawn not making it this far. Maybe next time.

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Re: Season 56 rankings- making the final cut
« Reply #29 on: January 23, 2010, 12:03:18 AM »
P4, have played.

Rank Killer, Hippie, Hero, Eyeball. Abstain on others, with... tentative rank to Shadow Teddie in particular because it felt different from other Shadow fights, but I'm also probably just being weird.
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Re: Season 56 rankings- making the final cut
« Reply #30 on: January 23, 2010, 12:45:05 AM »
Have played P4, definitely want to see the bosses ranked. Abstain on Izanami, didn't fight her, but yes to all others. 8-Bit, Hippy, Killer, Eye... All seem good to me. Honestly, I wouldn't see any as difficult to vote on, and some of them are really interesting duelists. I'll support ranking for the other shadow bosses as well, but those will likely be refused. (That's a yes from me, but not bothered if they don't make it.)

Haven't played WAXF, so abstain there.

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Re: Season 56 rankings- making the final cut
« Reply #31 on: January 23, 2010, 01:31:59 AM »
Persona 4 bosses
No
EDIT: Yes to Killer, 8-bit Hero, Kunino. No to everything else.

Killer is obvious enough. I finally bothered to read up on P4 plot and Kunino (or the person connected to him) is important enough to the plot, and the connection to said person is straightforward enough to merit a rank. The in-game image for 8-bit Hero was enough to win me over, no matter what name exactly we're ranking it under.

WAXF
No
Yes in general, abstain on specifics.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2010, 12:34:23 AM by hinode »

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Re: Season 56 rankings- making the final cut
« Reply #32 on: January 23, 2010, 01:35:32 AM »
P4 Bosses
Yes
Yes to Killer, Kunino-Sagiri and Mitsuo. Abstain on Izanami and Ameno

Wild Arms XF
Yes
Yes. PCs, Rupert, Charlton, Weisheit, Chelle

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Re: Season 56 rankings- making the final cut
« Reply #33 on: January 23, 2010, 02:24:13 AM »
1. Persona 4 bosses

a) Yes.
b) Yes to Killer and Izanami. Abstain on Kunino-Sagiri. No to everything else. super somehow convinced me on Izanami, and I'm beginning to think the possibility of her being seen as too good is more of a reflection of one or two glaring exceptions than anything else. Killer is... pretty obvious. The others are also pretty obvious as to why not in my mind.

2. Wild ARMs XF

a) No, but it's probably going to be the reason I'll buy a PSP this year.
b) Yes. Rank the PCs, Charlton, Chelle, Rupert, Weisheit. Fuck no on Asgard.
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Re: Season 56 rankings- making the final cut
« Reply #34 on: January 23, 2010, 02:42:45 AM »
Persona 4 bosses

1) Yes
2) Yes

Rank- Killer,  Kunino-Sagiri

Wild Arms XF

1) Currently
2) Yes

Rank- PCs except the poor dog. Abstain on bosses for now.

Star Ocean and Dragon Quest next time =-)
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Re: Season 56 rankings- making the final cut
« Reply #35 on: January 23, 2010, 02:59:35 AM »
As for WA:XF bosses in general: Went over this in chat somewhat last night, but here's the issue to me.  Take Ye Olde Godlike boss.  Now take the exact same kind of fight but give the PCs some kind of awesome damage move that is spammable and does triple everything else you can do (or alternatively rule this move legal if you saw it as illegal before).  Everyone agrees that the relative HP of the second boss goes down compared to the first boss, because the PC party can crank out more damage.  Cool.  Now, let's take a third version of Ye Olde Godlike boss, but rather than handing out a new powerful damage move, let's hand out Cancel Strike instead.  What happens to that boss's respect?   Uh.  Good question.

Thing is, Rob Turn and Cancel Strike are *at least* as valuable to a PC party as the awesome damage move I mentioned first, and you are guaranteed to have them.  So the third variant of this boss should be punished in some way vis a vi the first boss.  Problem is I'm not sure how, since arbitarily cutting their speed feels, well, arbitrary.  Yet nevertheless the amount of broken should be reflected in some way, similar to how I'm sure many gutcheck FFT boss respect as low due to some of the powerful setups in that game.  I dunno.  Even games with *very powerful* Haste spells still have to contend with enemy turns which could be used to mess with the enemy party.  Not letting the enemy get turns = an infinitely powerful Haste spell?
 
Snowfire, on the Decelerate/Cancel Lynch Mob, yeah, you probably could try to set up in this manner. Just...means that you need to be using Decelerate on a number of PCs (Given the numerous, numerous variety of things I'd rather have than Decelerate, it's a notable thing), and have a lot of spare MP for Levin to use. Given that I was generally using Levin's awesome speed and move and the ridiculousness that is Blast to pound away on the large number of enemies that generally inhabit bosses' areas, this would actually be a minus tradeoff considering the whole map, IMO. And then, you are focusing on attacking bosses with plain physical attacks which are lackluster damage wise and can miss! However, You do bring up an interesting point on Chelle versus other bosses, but...that still gives her 65% damage or something? Combine that with awesome speed and non-fail durability (at least in my eyes), and I'm not seeing the Middle/Godlike split. Throwing out PB against bosses (And there are some obviously where it's just not going to work-- Zophar/Myrias/Jade/other giant things aren't going to be pushed back) makes me think that she'd be a low Godlike, maybe a borderliner (She'd punish PC laden Heavy, and does fairly well overall against a good number of Godlike PC).

Hmm.  PCs should be in the level 50s for all the Chapter 4 bosses (which is what we're considering ranking).  That's room for 8 skill slots.  If you think that even more powerful skills than Decelerate should be held against XF bosses, fine, but that'll make them even weaker.  Notably, some of the stat boost skill slots are pretty powerful - Atk / Def / Eva / Mag / REs +25% are all quite good, and Def and Eva are rather easy to get.  Plus they're rather easy to interpret.

Don't want to get into the point too much since this is ultimately personal playstyles, but I only learned Decelerate on two characters - Clarissa and Levin - and that + Slow Down on an enemy was often enough to keep most random mook bosses turn-locked.  Didn't take much, but obviously there are other ways to be awesome as well.  Re Levin's MP, though, thanks to Decelerate he usually didn't even have to use it much, but it did push things over the top due to CS meaning a boss couldn't take a turn and OHKO an important character or something.  Against Charlton 2, for example, after Slow Down + surround to take advantage of Formation Arts, I think I only had to Cancel Strike him once.  And Clarissa couldn't even help out with the Deceleration since he nulls Strahl Gehvehr for no apparent reason.  (Okay, in fairness, he was Degenerator'd as well, which also slowed him down.  But every boss should be degeneratored 'cause it rules.)  As for physical attacks being meh...  well, Degenerator helps get past evasion concerns in general, and a three-person Formation Strike tends to do as much damage as, say, Secutor's Hard Smash or Fencer's Revolver Sweep, AND often criticals for even more damage.  So yeah, while physicals are often meh against the support, I found them pretty good when focusing on one enemy.

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Re: Season 56 rankings- making the final cut
« Reply #36 on: January 23, 2010, 03:21:14 AM »
Persona 4 bosses
1. Yes. Played it.
2. Yes
Who to rank: Killer is the only one I am in support of. Abstain on Kunino, Ameno, 8-bit hero and Izanami. No to PC Shadows

Wild ARMs XF
1. Yes
2. Yes
Who to rank: The 6 PCs + TONY + the big 3 (Weiss/Charlton/Rupert). Chelle...eh, sure. She re-appears often enough and is better than Piedras (whatever that says). Final's good, but in agreement of spoilerish issues, so abstain on her. Asgard's already ranked, but adding XF Asgard in is lol (Invinci spam until double turn then lolyoulose. And the only way to beat this is to have WA4 boss speed? Yeah). No to Generics. Think that's everyone...oh and RANK SAMILLE and EL JACKSON. Best ranks ever.
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alanna82

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Re: Season 56 rankings- making the final cut
« Reply #37 on: January 23, 2010, 03:43:40 AM »
I havent played either game. Still looking for P4 and after looking into Wild Arms XF realized it might be fun to play. Well there goes another game on my backlog.

abstain on Persona 4, seeing as we are ranking spoilers.

After having looked up and realizing that XF is a Strategy game, that actually looks like fun. It actually does seem like an interesting rank. Yes to PC's , no to bosses. We can always rank the bosses later if its a good draw.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2010, 09:48:35 PM by alanna82 »

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Re: Season 56 rankings- making the final cut
« Reply #38 on: January 23, 2010, 06:37:52 AM »
Quote
Thing is, Rob Turn and Cancel Strike are *at least* as valuable to a PC party as the awesome damage move I mentioned first, and you are guaranteed to have them. 

1. Rob Turn doesn't work on most bosses.
2. You are so not guaranteed to have a worthwhile Cancel Strike. See Dhyer/my playstyles (lol book cancel strike). Also you could just not use Levin, he's not forced.
3. So bosses are vulnerable to a certain skill. Um, okay, good for anyone who uses that skill against them in the DL. It's just like if all the bosses were vulnerable to ID. This would make their durability suck in-game if you IDed them all, yes. But you know what? In the DL they'd have fine HP, and they'd suffer for their ID vulnerability when they face Alys or whoever. Double punishing is stupid.
4. We don't scale bosses against speed buffing or debuffing. Or at least I don't, I can't think of m/any who do, and I've never heard you talk about it yourself. One Saner turns every PS4 into Ghaleon level speed but people see them as slightly below average. Hastega makes every FFX boss a slug but we don't hold that against them. Lambda after Slow Down isn't such a speed demon, and Melfice after Cold impresses nobody. You get the picture here.

Bosses who face raw damage and HP have that held against them. Bosses who face good skills do not, it just means they face powerful PCs. We don't scale skillset worth.

Oh yeah, and those 8 skill slots you mentioned are going to have a lot of space devoted to random smashing, healing, and other things besides "I want to make bosses look as bad in the DL as possible :( :( :(".

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Re: Season 56 rankings- making the final cut
« Reply #39 on: January 23, 2010, 07:08:51 AM »
Yes. If you want to punish F bosses for being vulnerable to Slow Down and turn-cancelling, then do it when they face someone with those skills.

Classic example is Rubicant. His durability in-game is worse because he has that glaring ice weakness, but without the ice weakness he is quite the tankish freak. This lets him translate better to a DL setting of course, but that is just a logical consequence. This is true of pretty much *every spoiler boss ever*

While I don't agree with NEB about Haste spells being ignored in CTB systems (that is a form of damage buffing, and often a very effective one), I don't believe you should hold the XF cast's ability to cancel/slow down turns against the bosses. If you want to punish their durability for facing things like Six Shooter and a cast full of speed-buffing freaks than that is your prerogative, but debuffs are just the PC cast being badass. Badass casts usually are matched up with badass bosses.

In-game worth isn't the end-all in the DL for bosses. I mean, a boss with ST OHKO can be a triviality in one game or a game-stopper in another, depending on stuff like healing and revival. It would still be the same thing in the DL.

Dhyerwolf

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Re: Season 56 rankings- making the final cut
« Reply #40 on: January 23, 2010, 08:49:40 AM »
I don't think the form-chain is questionable or a headache at all.  It's...clearly a form-chain, and people have ignored them before.

It's split by a plot scene and I believe the fight resets (Aka, the buffs revert back to the beginning, which is kind of notable. Did that even happen when enemies chained into each other?). Note that without the "guaranteed" ability to unload 2 PC HP damage, she at least feels a lot more rankable to me, but I have seriously little reading on how the majority of people take her. And list is awesome, but 64 duellers a week means that you aren't necessarily fully thinking about duellers that have had heavy testing, let alone one with next to none.

Oh right, what exactly is in the 400 damage that is taken against randoms, since that looks so different than the DL average, and there isn't much reason for that in P4?

For XF bosses, mostly see what NEB said. You have 8 slots, and there are lots of skills that you want to get, and many of them don't impact averages. I will note Snowfire that even if you choose to setup up PCs to throttle bosses at melee ranges, their ignored support than becomes that much more important (Especially if the support has range!). I'll also note that between the skills that can't be moved after using and the need for a bunch of melee attacks (And yes, for a setup that isn't optimizing Levin or Clarissa's magic damage in order to get better accuracy!), you're needing a good chunk of preparation within the battle (And the boss may just choose to take the battle to you).
« Last Edit: January 23, 2010, 08:54:39 AM by Dhyerwolf »
...into the nightfall.

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Re: Season 56 rankings- making the final cut
« Reply #41 on: January 23, 2010, 01:09:17 PM »
P4

Played it. Rank all PCs, Killer and Izanami. No to the eye, hell no to PC shadow bosses, abstain on the others.

XF

Played it. Rank all PCs, major plot bosses not named Eisen/Asgard/WORMFACE. Are we not including the final yet for spoilerish reasons?

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Re: Season 56 rankings- making the final cut
« Reply #42 on: January 23, 2010, 01:15:39 PM »
PCs are already ranked, Cid!  >_>

Dhyer: That number probably comes from me sucking at math <_<  It was an estimate based on accessory modifications, physical skills, auto-kajas, etc.  The number in-game should be higher against randoms, though - the average level is like 76 in the last dungeon, and at 80, you do more damage to them, so that's a factor of a lot of things.
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Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Season 56 rankings- making the final cut
« Reply #43 on: January 23, 2010, 04:26:43 PM »
Cid: Yeah, final isn't getting much support for spoilerish reasons, quite a few people still playing the game and/or who intend to pick it up now that it is being ranked. Good idea for later at least.


Also, boooooo to form-chains split by plot scenes in general.

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OblivionKnight

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Re: Season 56 rankings- making the final cut
« Reply #44 on: January 23, 2010, 05:34:50 PM »
Mmm...to be fair, XF has been out for a while.  And you could always rank the final as something else, to be fair!!!

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The form-chain is...split up by an in-battle cutscene...I don't...think status boosts or breaks carry over, though I've never tested (they do for Jenna, at least).

So...just as a general question of interest, what do you consider form-chains? 

1) If you start a battle with effects in play from the first part of the fight, but it's separated by a plot scene (HP and the like still are the same as well).

2) No plot scene, but the effects are reset (but not HP)

3) As above, but HP are restored

I've always called a form-chain a chain of fights with no chance to go back to the menu, access equipment, heal, etc.  So GAIA CORE INTO EVIL GAIA and Avalon are fine, as examples.
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Re: Season 56 rankings- making the final cut
« Reply #45 on: January 23, 2010, 05:57:29 PM »
I think it would be beneficial if someone would test that. If the status is reset then I wouldn't consider it a form chain.
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Re: Season 56 rankings- making the final cut
« Reply #46 on: January 23, 2010, 05:59:13 PM »
When I get off work.  In 3 hours >_>

Can't believe I didn't test that to begin with.



ANNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNND - Confirmed.  Everything stays (kajas, kundas, charges) - as I said, it's an in-battle cutscene for loading purposes.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2010, 10:06:00 PM by OblivionKnight »
[11:53] <+Meeple_Gorath> me reading, that's a good one

[19:26] * +Terra_Condor looks up. Star Wars Football, what?
[19:27] <+Terra_Condor> Han Kicks First?
[19:27] <%Grefter-game> Vader intercepts.
[19:27] <%Grefter-game> Touchdown and Alderaan explodes in the victory

Dhyerwolf

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Re: Season 56 rankings- making the final cut
« Reply #47 on: January 23, 2010, 11:55:33 PM »
If so, then she's the magical version of Jenna (Yeah, both have different advantages and disadvantages compared to each other). I'm just going through Super's list on Izanami vs the World. He doesn't allow the form chain and she's a high Godlike and she's racking up about 20 losses there. Allow that form chain and you are looking at maybe 2-3 people who really solidly beat her. The ability to unleash 2 PC HP "guaranteed" on top of being very solid otherwise feels like way too much (Last form...well, if that 400 was including all the stuff you can add, then that 250 to her is including physical skills and Kajas. So...3 PC HP durability to magic and 6 to physicals in the last form. With OHKO damage and that a form chain with a buffer. Yeah, unless people are just generally disregarding that form chain- and prior experience with other DL duellers shows this is generally the case, you are talking about someone who may just be too untouchable in the DL). Are people just throwing out the chain? Because that guaranteed damage is just too good at taking out a lot of normally high powered sluggers who focus on damage on more than Mdur.
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Luther Lansfeld

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Re: Season 56 rankings- making the final cut
« Reply #48 on: January 24, 2010, 12:30:02 AM »
I think we should think long and hard before we rank someone of that caliber. I certainly would not support Jenna if she were to be ranked again (this information was basically not known until months later) and we don't want to have someone who can hardly be beaten and leave it to people to disregard her legal-seeming formchain.
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Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Season 56 rankings- making the final cut
« Reply #49 on: January 24, 2010, 12:34:29 AM »
Yeah, going to be switching my vote to No on Izanami. A few factors here:

-I would not have ranked Jenna if we knew about her what we know now. A questionable form-chain creating an unreasonably good boss. The difference is that Jenna has more plot, it seems.
-The "Izanami vs. the world" topic. If you need that to convince me to support a rank, there's a problem. Never mind that the people who want to rank are going to fudge their votes to make her look rankable so it's probably even worse than the topic suggests. (I'm not accusing anyone of purposeful dishonesty, mind, but it's natural.)

On the other hand, switching to Yes on Mitsuo. I've heard his name well enough so I'm comfortable he has plot, and the issues being bandied about? Don't feel worse than a few things we've already ranked (Jecht, Lyon, Dhoulmagus, Leopold, etc.) So yeah, he's in.

Yes to Kunino-Sagiri too I suppose for all that that's a name I've heard very little, he is apparently present enough during his time in the plot. It doesn't matter anyway, he's getting in.

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