<Untitled IAQ Project>: Round 3: Wherein Attack=((((Y/Z)^M)*T)+R)/0...

[AndrewRogue]

...wait, oh no, oh no, OH NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

</universe ends>

Welcome to Round 3 of the <Untitled IAQ Project>. I will be leaving Round 2 open for the sake of continuing plot discussion, since hopefully some of it will be inspired by this.

Here in Round 3, we're going to start working out some of the games mechanics. I actually have an agenda for this round! Exciting, huh?

1. Establish the primary stats we will be using.
2. Establish how these stats work out in relation to game factors.
3. Work out some more of the battle mechanic quirks (equipment, specials, etc).
4. Put some of this into practice and start getting some rough character cheat sheets worked out.

So, uh. I'm not so useful here. Generally speaking, though.

HP
Resource (whatever the character uses for their specials, if anything)
Atk (Physical and Magical category)
Def (Physical and Magical category)
Evasion
Accuracy
Speed

These are all generalized stats that we should probably have. Whether they are derived or what not is another matter all together.

I do, off-hand though, think all stats and derived stats should be transparent. Players should be able to roughly determine what is going on by looking at things. *nods*

[Talaysen]

We might want to have Magic Evasion and Magic Accuracy in there too.

Abbreviations obviously subject to change.

HP
MP (name subject to change)
ATK
DEF
MGC
MDF
ACC
EVA
MAC
MEV
SPD

If we want to make them derived stats, we'd need a pool of base stats:

STR
VIT
INT
WIS (Name definitely subject to change.  I actually don't like this stat much myself.)
AGI
DEX
LUC

STR, VIT, INT, and AGI seem pretty standard, with WIS, DEX, and LUC being more optional.  One issue we have here is that we have a prime number (11) of derived stats, so even if we tried, we couldn't equally space them without having 11 base stats.  (By which I mean: each base stat affects the same amount of derived stats AND each derived stat depends on the same amount of base stats.  It is possible to have one or the other, but not both.)  Of course, equally spacing them isn't all that important, just a note.

Anyway, possible distribution.

STR: Affects ATK.  Possibly DEF and HP.
VIT: Affects DEF and HP.  Possibly MDF.
INT: Affects MGC, MP, and MAC.  Possibly MDF and MEV.
WIS: Affects MDF, MP, and MEV.  Possibly MAC.
AGI: Affects SPD and EVA.  Possibly ACC and MEV.
LUC: Affects EVA and MEV.  Possibly ACC and MAC.

Definitely some room for change here.  Also, stats do not need to affect the derived stats the same.  I.e. a point of VIT might raise DEF by 2, but a point of STR might only raise DEF by 1.  Could be used to balance the fact that some base stats affect more derived stats and some derived stats depend on less base stats.

There's also the option of having the base stats being character innate while the other stats are affected only by equipment, and then having them interact in some independent manner.  E.g. ATK and DEF only come from equipment while STR and VIT are base (possibly modified by equipment as well), and the damage formula uses all four (WA4 is an example here, I think FF12 did it too).

Definitely agree with all stats needing to be transparent.

Also, do we want characters to have innate elemental resistances?  People who specialize in fire magic might be more resistant to it, etc.  Something to think about.

Anyway, basically an idea dump here.

[Tide]

Personally prefer one set of stats instead of having derived stats - although many examples of games I am thinking of currently usuablly end up having some form of derived stats. And if we want things to be transparent, one set of stats might not work very well unless they are FE like structured.

There's also the option of having the base stats being character innate while the other stats are affected only by equipment, and then having them interact in some independent manner.  E.g. ATK and DEF only come from equipment while STR and VIT are base (possibly modified by equipment as well), and the damage formula uses all four (WA4 is an example here, I think FF12 did it too).

I prefer this method. If I am understanding correctly, then at the very least, it will lead to some more interesting equipment options. Innate resistances are cool, although this also means we need to design some sort of elemental tree (probably the big 8: Fire/Earth/Water/Wind/Ice/Lightning/Dark/Light).

Something else for food for thought that I tossed in chat the other day (and somewhat discussed):

Do people want to include some form of an AP system? Basically each character has a AP total and they can spend the AP to perform various actions in a turn. Moving/Acting/Counterattacking (assuming you get the choice to counter) takes AP. AP then recharges at the end of the round. A couple things we noted:

Good - Emphasizes a bit more on strategic elements such as movement and range, adds another dimension to trying to balance characters (for example: a good damage dealer might be restricted on AP, so he can fundamentally do less/counter less/move less)
Bad - Might ostrachize characters that have Low AP bases  (basically they always end up doing less, hence become worse PCs unless they are somehow set up to be superior in other ways)

[DjinnAndTonic]

Hmm... musings on how I see the random encounters.

Unless someone has any breakthrough ideas, I'm guessing the majority of enemies will fall into one of 3 categories: Antagonistic humans, Wildlife, Magically-Distorted Monsters.

Universally-usable 'medicine'-type items can exist, but they are very rare drops, and players should only use them in emergencies (we should balance the game around them not existing, and likewise, they should rarely exist and be a nice reward for a player should they get one). No storebought elixirs or what-have-you. And I imagine on humans would be carrying medicine. Drinking Hydra Humour straight from a Hydra doesn't sound like a smart idea, so I'm applying this logic to all wildlife randoms.

Now, Wildlife and Magically-distorted Monsters can drop other useful, though not universal 'items'. Perhaps for any Alchemist-type characters (REALLY LEANING TOWARDS THIS WITH EIRWEN) that use these items -as- their resources, and aren't using MP/Cooldown/Limits. Similarly, the Magic-Distorts might drop magically-infused items that only itemcasters (low-level Tactile mages) can utilize. These might be infinite-use, but have low effects. (Or perhaps multiple-use, but with a Break counter, a la FE weapons.)

I'm personally leaning towards Randoms being the main method for getting 'EXP', and that EXP is only for increasing stats. I personally like the CC method of "Each fight is a small stat boost" rather than the "Get a bunch of EXP, SUDDENLY A LEVEL! YOU'RE AWESOME!" method that normal games use. Since 'Randoms' are limited (at least until the last chapter?), there's not a lot of room/need for power-levelling and every fight you decide to do matters.

All characters on the active party roster have an equal chance of gaining stats, regardless of being in the in-battle party or not. To be clear, I'm not recommending that PCs we haven't met yet or PCs that have left and gone halfway around the world are getting EXP for another party's battles. I'm just talking about people in 'reserve' sharing EXP with the in-battle party.

I'm still pushing for each character to gain skills differently. I imagine we could have a few characters gain -some- skills through levelling, just to help ensure some balance, but for the most part, I'd like to see some different methods here.

For an example, using Eirwen since I brought her up already... I'm thinking use the Alchemist method. Crib it directly from the Gust games. It's interesting and it works. Since she's specifically a cook, you could make all of her skills Food-based. Perhaps she has to gather various ingrediants from wildlife, including things like Magical Pork to make Magical Potroast, which increases the ATK of all allies in range. Similarly, Enchanting Icecream Dream might be a sleep spell. But she has to gather Ice, Milk, and Magic Rock Salt to learn/make it (and it consumes a Magic Rock Salt every time she casts the skill).

Pulling from Shadow Hearts, I'm all about having a few sidequest mini-bosses a la Blanca's Duels, a Form-powerup system like Yuri's fusions, a few 'collect the key items' quests like Gepetto/Karin/Lucia (though each of those is implemented differently... Gepetto can switch his key items around for different effects, Karin just learns new skills on a list, and Lucia has to mix and match key items for different effects).

Pulling from SaGa, some characters can learn skills at random based on what equipment they are currently using. Pulling from several different series (Tales, FF9, etc), some characters can learn abilities after using a certain item for a length of time. Pulling from DQ8, perhaps certain characters have different skill trees all their own, and they can mix and match them by using different weapons. Pulling from Grandia, some characters can learn/upgrade abilities by using them multiple times. Still Grandia, though slightly altered, perhaps by raising affinities (with EXP/creative weapon equipping/items/buffs), a PC can learn an ability by getting a stat to break a certain threshhold, even temporarily (Epiphany learning, if you will).

Pulling from FF, we can have Blue Mage-style learning. Pulling from FE/Suikoden, we can have a PC who doesn't actually -learn- skills, but has unique abilities/stats depending on what weapon/accessory/'Rune' they equip, but they can't equip everything at once. Pulling from BoF3, maybe one character is a total lecture-learner, and they learn skills by spending time away from the party for short periods of time with various mentors across the Islands. Pulling from Suiko4, perhaps some characters can learn combo moves from being in battle with certain PCs for extended periods of time (or perhaps one PC learns -all- his moves by copying others and being in battle with them for extended periods of time).

If there's anyone who thinks we can't find over 20 methods of skill-learning/implementation, then I'm more than happy to continue listing options, but I'm guessing there might be a few more original ideas floating around our collective gameplay-loving minds.

I'd like some input on what type of learning style you guys think suits our current PC Roster.

Noemi - Some starting spells, some plot-given, a few EXP-given. Primarily skill-tree-based learning. As she uses different spell elements, she gains more related spells. I see her as a dagger-wielding type, but she could know how to use a few simple weapon-types (maybe just 2?) and each could have some related techniques. Since she's the main, I'd like to see her have a combination of Cooldown and Limit-break moves. Leaning mostly Cooldown types, with only one or two Limits that are built up by dealing damage (rather than taking it, so she's not a good damage sponge). The Limits are possibly learned through Epiphany-style stat-threshhold breaking. High speed/movement.

Mirek - Former guardian, so his skills are mostly physical-based. A lot of starting skills, mostly Limit-style, based on amount of damage taken (each skill builds up a separate bar for him, so he can save up for a large burst of successive power skills). A few passive skills learned through sidequest-type stuff (I'm thinking since he's pretty reactive to the Disquiet, that he learns passive skills just by going to certain locations... or perhaps by going to a certain locale and spending enough time there to solve a puzzle or something and he naturally picks up a new ability, without even really realizing it himself). Average movement/high speed.

Isolde - Seeing her more and more as some kind of Tactile mage. She focuses her power through touching an opponent (and then perhaps that casts an explosion spell from point-blank range?). Learns Blue-Mage style. She'll get attacked by an enemy mage or magic-distort random/boss and pick up the skill, though the range would end up being point-blank when she uses it. Not a ranged fighter with magic. If she needs some kind of range, she's using spear/halberd abilities. Weapon abilities for her would be few and cooldown-style, while her magic is just normal MP (I guess you could do Suiko-style charge levels, but I'm leaning against it since she already has range issues as a drawback). Charge times should match the enemy's. Thinking she can learn around 10-15 abilities through Blue Magic. She starts with some 'Earth' magic. High movement/average speed.

Erastus - Aural mage. Thinking he's big on AoE stuff. Lots of smash. Erastus is amazing, he's normally not limited by resources (lots of MP), but his Sound-based magic takes a lot of time to cast for big damage. His support-stuff can work like FFX2 Songstress skills - as long as he's chanting, the effect is in place, but he can't do anything else. Later on, there may be some skills where this isn't true and he CAN in fact be double-chanting two effects... maybe after he learns a passive ability to do so... DoubleSpeak, or what-have-you... he IS awesome after all. Since he's a skilled Vision mage too, he might be able to do both. Thinking he learns skills through using different Tomes/Tools. Low movement/speed.

On Elements...

I think there should be -some- kind of Elemental system in place. I know others have had ideas about this. I'm just gonna list the stuff we normally see in RPGs and we can decide what we'd like to use.

Unified list of Elements

Basic:

Physical

Magical

Healing (SMT Dia, PS Res, FF Cure)

Fire (SMT Agi, PS Foi, DQ Frizz/Sizz, Grandia Burn, GS Mars Djinn)

Water (SMT Aques)

Wind (SMT Garu, DQ Whoosh, Grandia Howl)

Earth (SMT Tera, GS Venus Djinn)

Thunder (SMT Zio, PS Tsu, DQ/Grandia Zap)

Ice (SMT Bufu, DQ/Grandia Crackle)

Light

Dark

Non-Elemental


Rare:

Almighty (SMT)

Poison

Gravity (FF, PS Gra)

Time/Space (SaGa)

Status

Instant Death

Expel (Suiko Eject)

Drain (Vacuum in SO2)

Void (SO2, similar to Non-Elemental)

Grass

Steel

Psychic

Flying (PKMN, Lufia2, FE, FFs Float)

Ground

Insect

Star (SO2, S5)

Sun (S5)

Moon (S5, SoM, SD3)

Force (DDS Wind/Zan, PS4 Wind)

Sound (S5)

Slash (SMT, ToP)

Pierce (SMT, ToP Stab, DDS Bullet)

Strike (SMT)

Hunt (SMT)

Jump (SMRPG)

Realm, Mind, Rune, Arcane, Life, Mystic, Evil (SaGa conglomeration)


Combinations:

Water/Ice (common, Blue in CC, Wat in PS, Mercury Djinn in GS)

Water/Healing (common, Heal in Grandia, Wish/Ply in GS)

Water/Light (Ocean in ToL)

Wind/Thunder (common, Jupiter Djinn in GS)

Fire/Wind/Thunder (Anima in FE)

Fire/Earth (Explosion in Grandia, ~Red in CC)

Fire/Thunder (Red in Brig)

Earth/Water (Forest in Grandia)

Earth/Thunder (Yellow in CC)

Wind/Grass (Green in CC)

Light/Instant Death (Hama in SMT)

Dark/Instant Death (Mudo in SMT)

I'm mostly chiming in on resources because I think the other stats Andy listed are pretty obviously going to have a place in our game.

[TranceHime]

That list of elements looks absolutely SMT/SaGa-tastic. I hope that's just a tentalive list you're going to draw a final pool from, because that looks like it'd be a headache to make actual sense out of.

Personally prefer one set of stats instead of having derived stats - although many examples of games I am thinking of currently usuablly end up having some form of derived stats. And if we want things to be transparent, one set of stats might not work very well unless they are FE like structured.

Derived stats at its core usually tend to be the directly battle-relevant stats - that is, to say, your run-of-the-mill Attack, Defense, Magical Attack, Magical Defense stats, derived from your core stats of perhaps, for example, STR(ength)/CON(stitution)/SPI(rit)/M(i)ND. The best way to utilize strictly a single set of stats would be, as you've already stated, to go for an FE-esque approach, which I doubt would not mesh extremely well with the initial vision in mind. However, this could go either way.

There's also the option of having the base stats being character innate while the other stats are affected only by equipment, and then having them interact in some independent manner.  E.g. ATK and DEF only come from equipment while STR and VIT are base (possibly modified by equipment as well), and the damage formula uses all four (WA4 is an example here, I think FF12 did it too).

I prefer this method. If I am understanding correctly, then at the very least, it will lead to some more interesting equipment options. Innate resistances are cool, although this also means we need to design some sort of elemental tree (probably the big 8: Fire/Earth/Water/Wind/Ice/Lightning/Dark/Light).

This doesn't seem too bad of an idea, actually. Itemization of equipment actually becomes a lot more widespread and you've got more room for interesting things to pop up, and it provides more flexibility for a viable, balanced damage formula.

Something else for food for thought that I tossed in chat the other day (and somewhat discussed):

Do people want to include some form of an AP system? Basically each character has a AP total and they can spend the AP to perform various actions in a turn. Moving/Acting/Counterattacking (assuming you get the choice to counter) takes AP. AP then recharges at the end of the round. A couple things we noted:

Good - Emphasizes a bit more on strategic elements such as movement and range, adds another dimension to trying to balance characters (for example: a good damage dealer might be restricted on AP, so he can fundamentally do less/counter less/move less)
Bad - Might ostrachize characters that have Low AP bases  (basically they always end up doing less, hence become worse PCs unless they are somehow set up to be superior in other ways)

Ehhhh. I'm a little bit iffy on providing an AP system. While it does introduce another strategic dynamic, it also needs to, at the very least, be able to be tweaked in-game in some manner or form - so that characters with described "low AP bases" can be tweaked to be able to do more in battle and already decent AP-based characters can be strengthened - with limits, of course. Naturally, this also introduces a balance issue. An AP system could work, key word being could, but a lot of work would need to be done to make sure it's seamless and doesn't leave room for unfairly gimped characters.

[Yoshiken]

I'd prefer one set of stats as well, personally. Makes things easier to work with from a player's PoV, rather than wondering which stats do what and why there are several different stats for damage. Besides, we've already had suggestions for having equips increasing the base stats, so why not just use the base stats in the damage formula and have -all- equipment increase them? The variety of choices on equipment is still there, since there's a good range of stats that can be increased, as well as having elemental/status options.

On the elements, the key factor isn't how many/what elements are there, but how they interact. Will elements be directly opposed, or will certain enemies just be specifically resistant/weak to certain elements? I'd like to see some interaction between elements for basic enemies, with bosses possibly breaking the formula slightly? For example, take FFX. Water enemies will be weak to Thunder 99% of the time, but Sin isn't (as far as I know, anyway).
If this is used, then there needs to be some pairs/sets of elements, possibly with a few outliers such as NE/Almighty. Idly, I'd say something like... Fire > Ice > Wind > Earth > Electric > Water > Fire. Then, have Dark > Holy > Dark, and possibly some physical elements, a la Persona.

Lastly, I'm very strongly against an AP system. The focus for this game seems to be on variety and strategies, and AP systems tend to move too slowly and turn every battle into stalling to build up AP. I'm happy to see Djinn's idea of item resources for attacks, some characters with MP/SP/TP, etc, but AP, as it's been described, is the one thing I am very much against.

[TranceHime]

On the elements, the key factor isn't how many/what elements are there, but how they interact. Will elements be directly opposed, or will certain enemies just be specifically resistant/weak to certain elements? I'd like to see some interaction between elements for basic enemies, with bosses possibly breaking the formula slightly? For example, take FFX. Water enemies will be weak to Thunder 99% of the time, but Sin isn't (as far as I know, anyway).
If this is used, then there needs to be some pairs/sets of elements, possibly with a few outliers such as NE/Almighty. Idly, I'd say something like... Fire > Ice > Wind > Earth > Electric > Water > Fire. Then, have Dark > Holy > Dark, and possibly some physical elements, a la Persona.

Even if you had a form of interaction that meshed well with the current system, having a shitload of elements tends to complicate things a lot, because it becomes more of a clusterfucky relationship web of elements rather than a systematic interaction of the different forms and elements that exist in the game. Given how grand Djinn's list is, I'd rather it get trimmed down a little first or it be just a giant pile of ideas with which we grab things form.

[074]

Isolde - Seeing her more and more as some kind of Tactile mage. She focuses her power through touching an opponent (and then perhaps that casts an explosion spell from point-blank range?). Learns Blue-Mage style. She'll get attacked by an enemy mage or magic-distort random/boss and pick up the skill, though the range would end up being point-blank when she uses it. Not a ranged fighter with magic. If she needs some kind of range, she's using spear/halberd abilities. Weapon abilities for her would be few and cooldown-style, while her magic is just normal MP (I guess you could do Suiko-style charge levels, but I'm leaning against it since she already has range issues as a drawback). Charge times should match the enemy's. Thinking she can learn around 10-15 abilities through Blue Magic. She starts with some 'Earth' magic. High movement/average speed.

Actually, it'd fit her more if she unlocked certain spells just by plot; We've discussed that a lot of her spells she already knows; just doesn't use for the sake of keeping her cover.

As for elements:  I'd see things divided up into two types here.  First is 'schools'--what can be learned by who, and how, essentially.  SaGa subdivisions of magic and whatnot, in a sense, I guess you could say there.  Second would be the damage types that said attacks would do--this is actually what's resisted, etc.  More to come when I don't have to get ready for school.

[Yoshiken]

Trance, think that was the idea for Djinn's list. I've cut out my personal choices from that, but think that'll still need a fair bit of discussion.

Nama: Think the schools are the lists that've been written up in the other topics. I assume those are the 'schools' or 'classes,' and now we need to work on the elements, which are the damage types. That's just how I see the terminology more than anything, though.

[074]

Anyway, proposed stats/elements, I guess.

Stats:
HP: Health, of course.
<Resource type, varies>: Resource pool, varies on character, perhaps.
OFF: Offense.  Dictates attack power of physical techniques and some composite skills.
DEF: Defense.  Defense versus physical attack types, used to resist physical-source ailments(like poison).
WIL: Willpower.  Dictates attack power of spells and some composite skills, used to resist mental ailments.
EDF: Energy Defense.  Defense versus energy attacks, used to resist spiritual ailments
SPD: Speed.  Linear as decided in Thread 1.
ACC: Accuracy.  Determines base hit rate with attacks--physical or magical.
EVA: Evasion.  Determines base evasion rate against attacks--physical or magical.  IS NOT BUGGED.
MOV: Movement.  How many hexes a character can move in one turn/action.

(possible: We've never determined yet how/if criticals will factor.  If it's based on a character-specific rate, then have it as a stat--especially if things other than basic physicals can crit.  Otherwise, let it be a weapon or skill-specific stat.  If it's decided that there is no criticals, then dump this altogether)
CRT: Critical.  Possibly make this a weapon/skill stat.  Determines base critical rate.

-----------------

Not seeing AP working here easily, anyway.  While it could have some use, it seems like it might overcomplicate things, especially if the AP spread is too wide.  AP building, however, can be averted with just getting a set amount of AP each turn and not allowing for storing like so many games do.

...hm.  I'll have to think about it.  It's got some viable options.

[EDIT] If we're incorporating chargetimes, AP is a no-go.  You simple can't do AP with charging, since that means you'd have long periods of "Charge->Recover->Charge->Recover" for the few cases of multiple attacks.  Slows things down, and we already have Grandia-style charging and a hex grid.  If we were to drop charging, we could easily do AP, but since charging was settled upon...AP's just plain out.

----------------

As for elements: I'm having trouble seeing certain elements somehow mysteriously doing damage of their type on some random basis (Earth, Air, and Water are the big three offenders here.)  As such, at least for elements I can think of, there's subtypes of damage...

Fire: Heat.
Ice: Cold, Impact, Slashing, Piercing
Lightning: It's...well, its own category.
Earth: Impact, occasionally Slashing, Piercing, or Poison
Air: Impact, Slashing, Piercing, Asphyxiation
Water: Impact, Slashing, Piercing, Asphyxiation, occasionally Poison
Light: Heat(if beam type), or 'holy' (if spiritual type)
Darkness: It's its own if we're talking spiritual type, though it's also frequently associated with cold and/or Poison.

If we have Light(spiritual) and Darkness, though, I'd say we should leave the idea of good and evil out of it.  Possibly reflavor them as 'life' and 'death'...hm.  No, the former wouldn't quite work.  Death as an Anti-Life element seems to work decently, though the setting flavor might not allow for it.  Sidenote: Fuck undead.

So if we consolidate it into elements as actual damage type, we're more likely to get something of the following:

Slashing (Physical)
Piercing (Physical)
Impact (Physical)
Heat (Energy)
Cold (Energy)
Electric (Energy)
Asphyxiation (Physical, attacking base DEF only)
Poison (Physical, attacking base DEF only)
'Life'/'Holy' (Energy?)
'Death' (Energy?)

Yes, the sources change, but the end type of damage is the same.  Crushing is crushing, no matter whether it's a sonic boom, a huge-ass rock, an equally huge-ass block of ice, a column of water, or Urggzob.  Healing doesn't matter on the 'element', on that note.  It's goddamned healing, it heals you.

Of course, this takes away some of the traditionality of elements, but it also works to its own degree.

------------------------------

Status: This...I'd like to wait a bit until we formalize resource systems.  There's a massive amount that can be done with this, especially on the setup we have, but I'd want a bit of time to think on this.

------------------------------

Basic actions available:  This hasn't come up yet, but I presume it would be important to some degree.  So far, presumably, we'd have:

Move
Attack
Special
Item (albeit rare, that)

Now, defending, we could take the WA4 example; select your own hex while moving.  Or we could have it a separate command, allowing one to move->defend.  But then again...unless there was an attack that was obviously predictable and clearly omfghuge, nobody would bother with it for the most part.

The other issue...do we want one or more types of basic attack?  By this, I mean since we seem to have agreed on the 'charging' part, would it be desirable to have multiple types of basic physical--one for damage and one for interrupting?  Or would interrupts be best left up to certain skills?  On that note, would movement be instant, or would it take its own degree of time?

-----------------------------------

Equips: Something we haven't really talked much about aside from some early ideas of who'd have what in Thread 2.  Are we using the "one PC->one weapon type" rule, or are we allowing for PCs to have access to multiple weapon categories?  On that note, would there be overlap in that sense?  (More than one PC drawing from the same weapon class)--though in the latter case, that'd be a guaranteed.

[Yoshiken]

I'm liking Nama's proposed list of stats, with the only difference I'd suggest is splitting PAcc/Eva and MAcc/Eva - some mages are going to be amazing at, say, distorting the Flow to alter a weapon's path, while not being so good at dodging magic, and vice versa. (Besides, this makes for more character variety, stat-wise.)
(Also, as I'm seeing that list... I'd like to see EDF renamed, but WIL/EDF are basically MAG/MDef, but with different status resistances as well?)

I'd like a more standard list of elements, honestly. I hate going into a new game having to learn what works how when everything is completely new. And unless every different element is explained in-depth, I think that's what this would be like.

Item should be a unique command, IMO. I'd say something like:

Move
Attack
<Magic/Skill> <-- Depends on magical/physical.
<Other Skills?> <-- Depends on class. For example, Eirwen could have Item/Alchemy here.
Defend
<Change Party Member?> <-- Did we reach a decision on this one? Think it was a yes.
Flee


On the note of Equips, that should probably be a poll, ideally. Buut, I'd say unique equips are best if we're aiming for character individuality. Plus, gives us a chance to be creative with weapons!

[DjinnAndTonic]

Stats:
HP: Health, of course.
<Resource type, varies>: Resource pool, varies on character, perhaps.
OFF: Offense.  Dictates attack power of physical techniques and some composite skills.
DEF: Defense.  Defense versus physical attack types, used to resist physical-source ailments(like poison).
WIL: Willpower.  Dictates attack power of spells and some composite skills, used to resist mental ailments.
EDF: Energy Defense.  Defense versus energy attacks, used to resist spiritual ailments
SPD: Speed.  Linear as decided in Thread 1.
ACC: Accuracy.  Determines base hit rate with attacks--physical or magical.
EVA: Evasion.  Determines base evasion rate against attacks--physical or magical.  IS NOT BUGGED.
MOV: Movement.  How many hexes a character can move in one turn/action.

(possible: We've never determined yet how/if criticals will factor.  If it's based on a character-specific rate, then have it as a stat--especially if things other than basic physicals can crit.  Otherwise, let it be a weapon or skill-specific stat.  If it's decided that there is no criticals, then dump this altogether)
CRT: Critical.  Possibly make this a weapon/skill stat.  Determines base critical rate.

I like what they do, but just call them what they are. ATK, DEF, ACC, EVA, MATK, MDEF, MACC, MEVA, SPD, MOV, CRT. Simple. We want things transparent, after all.

As for elements: I'm having trouble seeing certain elements somehow mysteriously doing damage of their type on some random basis (Earth, Air, and Water are the big three offenders here.)  As such, at least for elements I can think of, there's subtypes of damage...

I understand where you're coming from, but...

So if we consolidate it into elements as actual damage type, we're more likely to get something of the following:

Slashing (Physical)
Piercing (Physical)
Impact (Physical)
Heat (Energy)
Cold (Energy)
Electric (Energy)
Asphyxiation (Physical, attacking base DEF only)
Poison (Physical, attacking base DEF only)
'Life'/'Holy' (Energy?)
'Death' (Energy?)

...This? This is the SaGa Frontier element list. If we want transparent, let's not go with the system that makes no sense.

The other issue...do we want one or more types of basic attack?  By this, I mean since we seem to have agreed on the 'charging' part, would it be desirable to have multiple types of basic physical--one for damage and one for interrupting?  Or would interrupts be best left up to certain skills?  On that note, would movement be instant, or would it take its own degree of time?

...Good question. I'd really like Movement to be instantaneous since if it's not... dear god the slowdown. I think allowing certain weapon types and certain skills to have a 'interrupt'-type attack option open up alongside their basic physical is a good idea. Using this type of attack would obviously have to give some kind of speed boost so that it would have a chance to interrupt a currently-charging enemy's skill.

Equips: Something we haven't really talked much about aside from some early ideas of who'd have what in Thread 2.  Are we using the "one PC->one weapon type" rule, or are we allowing for PCs to have access to multiple weapon categories?  On that note, would there be overlap in that sense?  (More than one PC drawing from the same weapon class)--though in the latter case, that'd be a guaranteed.

I'd lean towards the ToV-style here. Mostly unique weapon-types (and probably half the PCs use only one weapon-type, though some can use 2 or more I suppose), but there are some weapon-types that multiple characters can use, though sometimes equipping the same weapon with a different PC would produce a different statboost or support ability or whatever. We could have one character who is some kind of weaponmaster and can technically equip anything, but the boosts this PC gets are unique to him/her.

[Excal]

Just read the last post, but here's my quick thought on weapons.

A game I loved with how it handled weapons was FF6.  Have a bunch of classes, and have those classes get shared in interesting ways.  This way, the nifty weapons you get can actually go on different people, but everyone still feels like they have a mostly unique weapon pool.

[OblivionKnight]

</has read little of the above>

I just want to toss my thoughts out here, and mix them in, rather than be speaking on others.

I've always been a fan of having loads of different stats.  I like having different systems to govern different types of abilities (magical vs. skills), and many different stats.  My own thoughts on a stat list:

HP/LP/VP/WhateverP (life force)
MP/SP/AP/WhateverP (magic and magical abilities)
TP/SP/Whatever P (techniques, skills, etc.)
STR (base for physical power)
CON (base for physical non-taking damage power)
WIL (base for magical stuff)
RES (base for non-magical effects taking stuff)
SPD (speed, turn order)
AGI (evasion, dodge)
ACC (base character accuracy)
MOV (movement on a field, like in Grandia)
LUK (for all the cool stuff)

I've always liked weapons providing their own critical and hit rates, modulated by character bases (AGI, LUC, ACC, etc.).  I like derived stats, since you can also have some interplay with some of those stats being mixed effects (for instance, STR*x = base ATK added to weapon ATK, and some techs are based on STR, or add STR bonuses to ATK, etc.).  Of course, straight ATK/DEF/MAG/SDF/ACT/EVA/HIT/MOV/LUK work too.

I do like splitting physical elements up in to pierce/slash/strike.

Elements...

Fire
Water
Ice
Earth
Wind
Lightning
Light
Dark

Additional elements would be something like combination stuff...

Fire/Lightning = Nuclear

For example.  Nothing specific on that end, but I like combination skills, so a bit more variety would be cool.

Each character should generally have a weapon type they use, but multiple weapons are fine too - definitely each person should have something unique about them.  Armours should be general.

As for a mathematical system...I like subtraction, but I'm relatively alone in that regard, I think >_>

[Sir Donald 3.2]

Tally: I like Will better than Wisdom.  Wisdom is a derivitive of Intelligence.  Will stands for Willpower or mental/emotional endurance and is a match to Vitality (Physical endurance)

Just want to throw out the question of whether there is a realistic difference between (Battle) Speed and AP; that is, is it possible to have someone with low AP but high Speed = has quick reactions vs. High AP but Low Speed being a behemoth that needs to plan their actions in advance.

Dijin:  I'd rather do a bit of a FF2 system wherein direct actions lead to corresponding stat boosts.

Actually, if we keep the base-derived gap, we could have each action (including inaction stuffs) increase each base stat a certain number of points.  (Reserve Units would increase each base by 1 Stat Point per turn, (Total gain of 7 Stat Points for doing "nothing" to reflect general training.)  Straight Physicals increase Strength and Dexterity, Straight Magic increases Intelligence and Willpower, Movement increases Agility (1 Stat point per move?), Various skills increase any of the 7 Stats as seems logical.

Stat increases would follow a formula using existing stat values to increase values the next point.  Each person would have a different formula for each base stat, though you should count the number of battles (in the current dungeon) in the active party needed to increase a given stat one point on one hand.  (And that's for all but the WORST stats per person; as an example a Fisticuffs Brawler would only need to fight 2 battles to increase Strength 1 point and 2-3 batles to increase Vitality.  Willpower and Intelligence, however, would need 5-7 battles.  Reverse this for a Pure Mage.

Derived Stats would be derived from base stats in the same way for all characters.  The difference in the growth rates would already be covered by the Base Stats themselves.

I've got 7 Base Stats (as previously proposed) and 14 Derived Stats.  Each of the 14 are combinations of either 3 Base stats equally or 2 Base Stats with a Primary and a Secondary.  In this way, each stat has 6 roles, though some are duplicate roles.

Strength
Vitality/Constitution
Intelligence
Willpower
Dexterity (I treat as physical, its magical equal is covered partly by Int.)
Agility (I treat as physical, its magical equal is covered partly by Int.)
Luck

The first column has the Derived Stat, the other 3 the foundation Base Stats
      
HPnts   Vit   Vit   Wil
PhPts   Vit   Str   Int
MaPts   Wil   Wil   Int
PhOff   Str   Str   Dex
PhDef   Vit   Vit   Str
MaOff   Int   Int   Wil
MaDef   Wil   Wil   Vit
PhAcc   Str   Dex   Luck
PhEva   Agi   Agi   Luck
MaAcc   Int   Dex   Luck
MaEva   Agi   Int   Luck
Speed   Agi   Dex   Luck
Move_   Agi   Agi   Str
Critical   Dex   Dex   Luck


Hit Points.  Lose these and die.  Usually physical in nature but in a setting dependent on magic, the will to live needs an acknowledgement.
Resources/Recharge for Physical Skills:  Strength and Vitality provide the resivors, Intelligence provides the ability to use these skills efficiently
Resources/Recharge for Magic Skills:  Willpower provides you with the Will to use spells a lot.  Intelligence again provides efficiency.
Physical Offense:  How hard you swing your physical weapon.  Dexterity is reflexive of technique.
Physical Defense:  Mainly Vitality, though raw Strength also plays a role.
Magical Offense:  Mainly Inteligence.  Willpoer provides that extra push.
Magical Defense:  Mainly Willpower to resist.  Vitality also plays a role once it breaks through into the body, such as damage spells.  (Though White Blood Cells can also help against Status spells...)
Physical Accuracy: Dexterity to position the weapon, Strength to place it, and Luck for... Luck.
Physical Evade:  Pratically all Agility, with a little Luck on the side.
Magic Accuracy: Inteligence and Dexterity intermingle for targeting ability.  Luck helps out somewhat.
Magical Evade: Intelligence lets you see the spell.  Agility gets you some distance.  Luck is obvious.
(Turn) Speed:  Dexterity for Positioning, Agility for Reaction, and Luck for... Luck. 
Movement:  How far a person moves in a turn.  Agility plus a little bit of Strength for velocity.
Critical Rate:  Mainly governed by a player's outright skill, reflected in Dexterity.  Luck also plays a role.

So, Vitality and Willpower affect 4 Stats and double up on 2 of those 4:  Type Defense and a Resource Stat.
Agility also affects 4 and doubles 2: Physical Evade (It shares with Intelligence for the Magical Equivalent) and Movement Rate; which can be interpreted as a Resourse Stat...
Luck is present in 6 stats and doubles in none.
The rest affect 5 stats with 1 doubling:  Strength has Physical Attack, Intelligence Magic Attack, and Dexterity for hitting that sweet spot with any attack.

Derived Stats would be bolstered by Equipment.  Some minor equipment (i.e. Accessories) could modify Base Stats instead, though whether by addition or Multiplication is left for debate.


I might get to Senses vs. Elements in a later post.  Emphesis on might, schoolwork's starting up again.

Namagomi:  What about Undead as being a byproduct of either Disquiet or extreme Quiet?  I can see Death as being a Quieting type of spell...

OK:  A subtraction system causes things to go "plink".  Good for determining when you're supposed to be somewhere else, but could get real ugly real quick if the Party's on the wrong end.  But what can we do...

[074]

Donald: Beside the point.  Undead are frankly boring as all hell, and nobody really enjoys dealing with them.

[Talaysen]

Mostly an idea/opinion dump.  List not in any particular order.

First: Agreeing with Djinn on stats.  Let's not use weird names just to be different.  Use normal names.

Second: Elements.  Let's use normal elements.  Using weird names like "Energy" is just confusing and... well, hard to design moves for.  Normal elements are good.  I do like splitting up physical into three elements though.  Not a fan of "combination" elements, but I see no reason why some attacks can't have multiple elements.  Also, see no issues with Light and Dark elements.  Light does not mean good and Dark does not mean evil.  Life and Death are probably worse for it.

Third: Equipment.  I think weapons and armors should be usable by multiple characters in general (there can be weapon types that are the exception, though).  However, we can have unique weapons and armor on top of that (just note it in the description so people KNOW).  If we're going to have a lot of PCs and only able to use a small subset of them, then we need to allow most equips to be used on most people, otherwise players are going to get a lot of weapons and armor that they'll never use.

Specifically, I'd say something like A uses axes and spears, B uses spears and swords, C uses swords and staves, D uses axes, swords, and bows.  Suikoden Tierkreis and Eternal Poison did this and it worked pretty well.

Fourth: On derived stats.  The benefit to doing this is you can have say accessories that boost STR by 5%.  For someone who has a high STR stat and a lower attack power weapon type, this is good, while it's not very useful on someone with low base STR and high attack power weapons.  Stuff like that.  You get more things to play with.  On the other hand, there is the added complexity.

Fifth: For defense, subtraction based also gives us more things to mess with.  I mentioned this example in chat, but I'll reiterate it here.  Say we have two skills A and B, probably on the same person.  Skill A's damage formula is (ATK*4-DEF).  Skill B's damage formula is (ATK-DEF)*8.  Against a high DEF enemy, say DEF=ATK, Skill B does no damage, while skill A does ATK*3 damage.  On a lower DEF enemy, say DEF=ATK/4, skill A does ATK*3.75 damage while skill B does ATK*6 damage.  Which skill you want to use depends on the defense of the target, making more skills useful overall.  The downside to subtraction defense is that it is much harder to balance, whereas division defense you know someone with twice the defense will take half the damage, straight up.

If we split stats, we can do something like (ATK-DEF)*STR/VIT (with appropriate mults for skills) for damage, giving both subtraction and division.  It's more complex (though not really all that complex if you make it transparent), but it allows for different styles of tanking (someone could have good DEF armors and low VIT, so they'd take lots of damage from things with high ATK but little damage from things with low ATK, which may end up tinking.

I am leaning towards subtraction being there in some form, at least.

Sixth: AP.  Agreeing with Yoshi on the fact that Charge times => no AP.  It CAN be doable, just is a mess and we should probably avoid it unless someone has a compelling reason and idea how to implement it.  Assuming we use it, the easiest way to make fights end up not focusing on building AP for a long time is to just cap how much you can store fairly low.  Like 2x your normal AP at most.  Then you only wait one turn to max out, which isn't that long.  You could just say 1x but then it's easy to waste AP (such as if you can't reach an enemy).  I do like charge times (IF THEY'RE BALANCED CORRECTLY WHICH IS AN ISSUE IN LOTS OF GAMES), so I guess I'm voting for no AP until someone can convince me otherwise.

Seventh: Movement should be instant, yes.  It works in Grandia 3 because it's an open field and you don't have perfect control over your movement.  If we're using a grid, then we should just make it instant.

Eighth: Critical stat is good.  As long as it is shown.

NINJA EDIT: Movement should not be affected by base stats and should be constant.  If we were using a gridless system and could use a more continuous MOV stat, it would work better, but when we're dealing with a number between 1 and 4, it should just be constant.

Normal levelling is probably best.  Anything that depends on actions means people who are faster get more stats, people who are in reserve get no stats, etc.  Making stat boosts it based solely on battles fought has the issue of needing to scale to the enemies.  It can work I guess, but it's kind of a hassle.

[Sir Donald 3.2]

First: Agreeing with Djinn on stats.  Let's not use weird names just to be different.  Use normal names.

Well there is precedent in using Will instead of Wisdom.  FF4 if I'm not mistaken.

Second: Elements.  Let's use normal elements.  Using weird names like "Energy" is just confusing and... well, hard to design moves for.  Normal elements are good.  I do like splitting up physical into three elements though.  Not a fan of "combination" elements, but I see no reason why some attacks can't have multiple elements.  Also, see no issues with Light and Dark elements.  Light does not mean good and Dark does not mean evil.  Life and Death are probably worse for it.

Well, if we have anything to say about the 5 Sensory Schools, Now is the time.  I always thought that the 4 native "senses" (with smell/taste combined) would be our base "elements" for impact with "standard" elements being a secondary factor.

Perhaps "Sonic"/"Sight"/"Touch"/"Smell" could be the magical counterparts to physical's "Piercing"/"Slashing"/"Blunt"/etc.  This leaves room for the Standard Elements as a secondary multiplier  Each skill would have only one "Primary Type" (Sense or Weapon Type) with any number of secondary elements (including the standard RPG elements, though I'm sad that I'm only seeing the Standard 8.  What happened to "Nature," i.e. Growth vs just plain rocks and fissures?)

NINJA EDIT: Movement should not be affected by base stats and should be constant.  If we were using a gridless system and could use a more continuous MOV stat, it would work better, but when we're dealing with a number between 1 and 4, it should just be constant.

Ok, I concede that Movement should not be affected by Base Stats.  However, I disagree on it being a Constant.  There should be armor effects and/or skills that allow it to deviate by +/-1 from its starting point.  I see only Body Armor and Accessories impacting Move directly and while Skills would not stack with each other, (in fact, a "Sludgefoot" effect would nullify a "Lightfoot" effect and vice versa,) they would stack with Equipment effects (which, themselves are limited to a total deviation of +/-1 from normal).  However, a Min of +1 and a Max of +5 need to be Hard-Coded.

Also, we could start considering Hex effects.  (Unless that's later on.)  For example, there could be some Bog Hexes that would cost 2 Movepoints and reduce the PEvade of anyone standing on them by 20%.  Tall Grass would increase PEvade by 20%.  Trees and Columns could be straight barriers to movement and line of sight.  Bushes would be movement barriers only, LoS would still go through.

Here is a modified Skill Base Table.  Note that I've separated the Physical-based Critical from the Magic-Based Critical to create my 14th Stat.

HPnts   Vit   Vit   Wil
PhRes   Vit   Str   Agi
MaRes   Wil   Wil   Int
PhOff   Str   Str   Dex
PhDef   Vit   Vit   Str
MaOff   Int   Int   Wil
MaDef   Wil   Wil   Vit
PhAcc   Str   Dex   Luc
PhEva   Agi   Agi   Luc
MaAcc   Int   Dex   Luc
MaEva   Agi   Int   Luc
Speed   Agi   Agi   Dex
PCrit_   Str   Dex   Luc
MCrit_   Int   Dex   Luc

Agility's Double-Up has been moved to Speed which transfers its Luck element into the Critical Split.  The Dex double from Crit is also Split.  Strength and Intelligence back up their respective Criticals and Agility (that is a sense of Flexibility, though Dexterity could have served as well) replaces Intelligence in the Physical Skill Recharge Pool.

Looking at this, I'm thinking that there may be grounds to combine Agility with Dexterity and Split Knowledge from Intelligence, using the former as the Magic Power base and the latter as Mental Quickness/Agility.

Normal levelling is probably best.  Anything that depends on actions means people who are faster get more stats, people who are in reserve get no stats, etc.  Making stat boosts it based solely on battles fought has the issue of needing to scale to the enemies.  It can work I guess, but it's kind of a hassle.

What I had envisioned was the Reserves gaining 1 Stat Point in each Stat per Round of Battle, (total 7,) with Actions taken by the Active Party gaining from 7 to 10 Stat Points Total, though distributed based on the action taken.  (Maybe start at 5-6 depending on how early in the game we exceed the Party Size Cap.)  That still leaves the issue of Active Party Members with higher Speed getting more Stat Experience than Lower Speed actives.  Probably another reason for a reconfig in Stats...

[DjinnAndTonic]

On stats: I'm okay with derived stats as Tal sees them. I like things that give a PC more flexibility and allows us to have more fun with skill formulas. Although, I recommend that the active stats all be displayed from 0-100. This also allows for nice things like EVA/ACC percentages being transparent.

Still opposed to any creative naming here.

On equips: Hopefully we can come up with slightly more creative weapon types than just axes, spears, and bows?

On elements: Still a flavor thing. It doesn't matter what we -call- the elements, it's just a method of damage-typing. We could have literal flavor-typed damages, and it would still be a question of 'Does Noemi resist Parfait-type attacks?' or 'Oh no, this boss just nulled my best Pancake Limit Break!'

I think the tried and true 'Big Eight' works best, but we could add a special elemental typing for Quieting spells or something.

On Critical stat: Yes. It's far nicer knowing up-front what your percentage chance of critical is instead of hoping that this specific move has a high critical rate. (Although, we can have those kinds of moves, just make sure to label how much they increase a PC's base critical %).

On Movement: Agreed that Movement should be instant, however, it can be figured into the charge time of a move as it goes from 'input' to 'activated' a la the Grandia system. The movement actually takes place instantly, but moving further should increase the chargetime of an ability slightly. This means that there's a greater chance that something will use a faster move and interrupt you (especially the enemy you just moved next to, since now it's not getting a movement penalty! ...However, I doubt most enemies have Interrupt abilities, so this probably works in the player's favor more often than not).

On Levelling: Well, I'm still in favor of CC-style here, since it's a fun system that's under-utilized, but I guess we could go with vanilla levelling too. Want to see more thoughts on this.

FF2 Levelling is horrible, and I do not support this in any way. It's bad enough that we're probably going to have skill powering up in this method (in a limited capacity, I was thinking more along the lines of "use a skill 10 times, it goes up a level, caps at 10 or 20"), but stat-powering in this method is yikes. You get the FF2 beat-yourself-in-the-head syndrome which not even Grandia thought was a good idea.

On AP: Not a fan, won't cry if we decide to implement it, but I doubt it'll be an easy system to talk about/balance for in the IAQ writeup.


EDIT before posting!

Strength
Vitality/Constitution
Intelligence
Willpower
Dexterity (I treat as physical, its magical equal is covered partly by Int.)
Agility (I treat as physical, its magical equal is covered partly by Int.)
Luck

The first column has the Derived Stat, the other 3 the foundation Base Stats

HPnts   Vit   Vit   Wil
PhRes   Vit   Str   Agi
MaRes   Wil   Wil   Int
PhOff   Str   Str   Dex
PhDef   Vit   Vit   Str
MaOff   Int   Int   Wil
MaDef   Wil   Wil   Vit
PhAcc   Str   Dex   Luc
PhEva   Agi   Agi   Luc
MaAcc   Int   Dex   Luc
MaEva   Agi   Int   Luc
Speed   Agi   Agi   Dex
PCrit_   Str   Dex   Luc
MCrit_   Int   Dex   Luc

This is... not bad. But a little more complex than I was hoping for. There's nothing wrong with the names, at least.

I think I'd still prefer a more straight base translation. That way we can have a piece of equipment that modifies Agi, but doesn't suddenly make half the PC's active stats double!

[Cmdr_King]

Haven't been reading super closely, but like the idea of PCs having visible critical rates.  More specifically... I'd advocate each PC having a specific base critical rate, based on fighting style.  Also means you know in advance how much of an effect, say, a new skill, a crit-boosting weapon, or support skills would have on the PC.  I'd suggest having the base rate as a % chance, and making boosts a flat bonus rather than a percentage enhancement.  Basically, you could make a non-crit character have a chance at it, or making a crit oriented character an unstoppable machine, that sort of thing.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Tal is the man and I second much of what he has said. Expanding on some of it too, this is also an unfocussed post.

Simple, straightforward elements (attacks can have multiple elements). Try not to let the game have too many. 8 magical ones + the 3 types of physical damage at most (plus status stuff if you want to see that as elemental).

Equipment: Definitely for the FF6 model where equips generally overlap (a few uniques, but they're not the norm) but every character's weapon pool is unique. This has been described well by a few people.

Also, weapon types should vary from each other in the following ways:
-Multiplier (perhaps accomplished via multiple swings/hits)
-Raw power to overpower defence
-Reach (spears with 2 range, bows with 4, etc.)
-Counter rate
-Critical rate
-Damage type (bludgeoning, piercing, slashing)
-Hit rate
-Ability to overcome certain types of enemy defences (ranged weapons hit fliers, hammers ignore armour, etc.)

Possibly more. Basically, an axe and club should not just be separated by a simple power stat the way they are in Dragon Quest.


Agreed with crit being shown.


Scanning. Enemy information. Super important. I don't really care how it's implemented (it could be as simple as information that's permanently available like WA5, or available via the more usual Scan spell, or have different characters specialise in analysing different enemies) but the option is something that I find very valuable to strategy. I'd make the scan a very informative one: it should show stats as well as elemental/status info. Optimally I'd also like it to show descriptions of enemy moves, at least that are already used. I may be getting greedy though. <.<

Also in favour of some manner of damage projections, at least via scanned enemies. No opinion on whether to use the traditional SRPG raw number, or the less intrusive WA4-5 method of showing the projection against enemy HP. Since I'm in favour of transparent mechanics (read: the damage formulas should be in the database/library), this is nothing more than saving the player the trouble of working out available information himself or herself.

(I'm well aware that many players won't care about these things, but they're easy to implement in a way that doesn't slow down or interfere with the game for them.)

Dijin:  I'd rather do a bit of a FF2 system wherein direct actions lead to corresponding stat boosts.

Aw hell naw. Seriously, there's a reason FF2 is considered by most to suck. Strongly opposed to in-battle stuff determining out-of-battle results, it encourages inane in-battle grinding. Beat up your party members to raise their HP! No.


Shouldn't we have magical stats that deal with how the magic system works? Like, we were discussing how characters may respond differently to dissonance-related healing... should this have a stat?

[Talaysen]

First: Agreeing with Djinn on stats.  Let's not use weird names just to be different.  Use normal names.

Well there is precedent in using Will instead of Wisdom.  FF4 if I'm not mistaken.

Wasn't directed at your suggestion there.

Well, if we have anything to say about the 5 Sensory Schools, Now is the time.  I always thought that the 4 native "senses" (with smell/taste combined) would be our base "elements" for impact with "standard" elements being a secondary factor.

Perhaps "Sonic"/"Sight"/"Touch"/"Smell" could be the magical counterparts to physical's "Piercing"/"Slashing"/"Blunt"/etc.  This leaves room for the Standard Elements as a secondary multiplier  Each skill would have only one "Primary Type" (Sense or Weapon Type) with any number of secondary elements (including the standard RPG elements, though I'm sad that I'm only seeing the Standard 8.  What happened to "Nature," i.e. Growth vs just plain rocks and fissures?)

While... I don't think this is a horrid idea, I think it's A) too complex and B) forces all of a school's spells to be the same "element", and I don't really see a good reason to do this.

NINJA EDIT: Movement should not be affected by base stats and should be constant.  If we were using a gridless system and could use a more continuous MOV stat, it would work better, but when we're dealing with a number between 1 and 4, it should just be constant.

Ok, I concede that Movement should not be affected by Base Stats.  However, I disagree on it being a Constant.  There should be armor effects and/or skills that allow it to deviate by +/-1 from its starting point.  I see only Body Armor and Accessories impacting Move directly and while Skills would not stack with each other, (in fact, a "Sludgefoot" effect would nullify a "Lightfoot" effect and vice versa,) they would stack with Equipment effects (which, themselves are limited to a total deviation of +/-1 from normal).  However, a Min of +1 and a Max of +5 need to be Hard-Coded.

Yeah, I can see them being affected by equips or some such.  Just not by stats.

Also, we could start considering Hex effects.  (Unless that's later on.)  For example, there could be some Bog Hexes that would cost 2 Movepoints and reduce the PEvade of anyone standing on them by 20%.  Tall Grass would increase PEvade by 20%.  Trees and Columns could be straight barriers to movement and line of sight.  Bushes would be movement barriers only, LoS would still go through.

Too many hex effects makes this resemble WA4/5 too much.  However, this is more akin to SRPG terrain, which might be different enough?  Not sure if it should be present in randoms or not (though if we use visible randoms, it might work).

Normal levelling is probably best.  Anything that depends on actions means people who are faster get more stats, people who are in reserve get no stats, etc.  Making stat boosts it based solely on battles fought has the issue of needing to scale to the enemies.  It can work I guess, but it's kind of a hassle.

What I had envisioned was the Reserves gaining 1 Stat Point in each Stat per Round of Battle, (total 7,) with Actions taken by the Active Party gaining from 7 to 10 Stat Points Total, though distributed based on the action taken.  (Maybe start at 5-6 depending on how early in the game we exceed the Party Size Cap.)  That still leaves the issue of Active Party Members with higher Speed getting more Stat Experience than Lower Speed actives.  Probably another reason for a reconfig in Stats...

This is... really weird.  Active battle members will get stats in what they excel in most, of course, and not get much in stats that require them to take actions they cannot take.  However, throw them into reserves and bam, different stat distribution?  That's really not sitting right with me at all.

On stats: I'm okay with derived stats as Tal sees them. I like things that give a PC more flexibility and allows us to have more fun with skill formulas. Although, I recommend that the active stats all be displayed from 0-100. This also allows for nice things like EVA/ACC percentages being transparent.

You can make EVA/ACC transparent without forcing a 0-100 restriction.  In fact, ACC capping out at 100 is probably not even a good idea.

Not that I really object to that low of a range, just saying it's not necessary.  Personally, I'm a fan of no "hard" cap on stats, though there is obviously a range we'd shoot for stats to fall in normally.

On equips: Hopefully we can come up with slightly more creative weapon types than just axes, spears, and bows?

Heck yes.  We need more people hitting things with violins and stuff.

On elements: Still a flavor thing. It doesn't matter what we -call- the elements, it's just a method of damage-typing. We could have literal flavor-typed damages, and it would still be a question of 'Does Noemi resist Parfait-type attacks?' or 'Oh no, this boss just nulled my best Pancake Limit Break!'

Yes, but... why don't normal element names work?  They fit just fine in the flavor and the only reason to use obscure names is to... use obscure names.  That's the point.

Though, Pancake element is delicious...

I think the tried and true 'Big Eight' works best, but we could add a special elemental typing for Quieting spells or something.

Maybe.  Not quite convinced it's needed, but maybe.

On Movement: Agreed that Movement should be instant, however, it can be figured into the charge time of a move as it goes from 'input' to 'activated' a la the Grandia system. The movement actually takes place instantly, but moving further should increase the chargetime of an ability slightly. This means that there's a greater chance that something will use a faster move and interrupt you (especially the enemy you just moved next to, since now it's not getting a movement penalty! ...However, I doubt most enemies have Interrupt abilities, so this probably works in the player's favor more often than not).

Part of me wants to agree and part of me wants to disagree.

Movement affect charge time... well, it doesn't make any sense if the character actually moved instantly.  It's just unbelievable.

On the other hand, allows for some neat mechanics.  Not sure it's worth it though.

Also, enemies should have interrupt abilities and use them.

On Levelling: Well, I'm still in favor of CC-style here, since it's a fun system that's under-utilized, but I guess we could go with vanilla levelling too. Want to see more thoughts on this.

Wasn't it random?  And arbitrarily capped?  Not a fan of either of those.

I think I'd still prefer a more straight base translation. That way we can have a piece of equipment that modifies Agi, but doesn't suddenly make half the PC's active stats double!

Make base stats only part of the equation of derived stats, then modify by equipment.  Problem solved (if we do it right).

Haven't been reading super closely, but like the idea of PCs having visible critical rates.  More specifically... I'd advocate each PC having a specific base critical rate, based on fighting style.  Also means you know in advance how much of an effect, say, a new skill, a crit-boosting weapon, or support skills would have on the PC.  I'd suggest having the base rate as a % chance, and making boosts a flat bonus rather than a percentage enhancement.  Basically, you could make a non-crit character have a chance at it, or making a crit oriented character an unstoppable machine, that sort of thing.

Agreed.  I'll use Atelier Iris 2 as an example here.  There, the base critical rate was 20%.  There were three skills, Critical (S), Critical (M), and Critical (L).  They increased critical rate by 10%, 20%, and 30% respectively.  Multiplicatively.  So your awesome Critical (L) weapon... crits 26% of the time instead of 20%.  YEY!

Yeah, that's not a good way to do things.

Also, weapon types should vary from each other in the following ways:
-Multiplier (perhaps accomplished via multiple swings/hits)
-Raw power to overpower defence
-Reach (spears with 2 range, bows with 4, etc.)
-Counter rate
-Critical rate
-Damage type (bludgeoning, piercing, slashing)
-Hit rate
-Ability to overcome certain types of enemy defences (ranged weapons hit fliers, hammers ignore armour, etc.)

Possibly more. Basically, an axe and club should not just be separated by a simple power stat the way they are in Dragon Quest.

Liking it.  Though I was thinking specific skills would affect much of these things (mults, critical rate, hit rate, piercing defenses, maybe damage type in some cases).  Would they stack with each other (obviously not damage type) or would skills just use their own modifiers?  I'm in favor of stacking, since it makes your weapon type matter more.  A bit more complex but likely worth it.

Scanning. Enemy information. Super important. I don't really care how it's implemented (it could be as simple as information that's permanently available like WA5, or available via the more usual Scan spell, or have different characters specialise in analysing different enemies) but the option is something that I find very valuable to strategy. I'd make the scan a very informative one: it should show stats as well as elemental/status info. Optimally I'd also like it to show descriptions of enemy moves, at least that are already used. I may be getting greedy though. <.<

Definitely agreed.  WA5 style rules.  There's also the option of sequentially making the data available.  For example, hit an enemy with a physical attack, you now know its physical defense.  Enemy uses a physical move on you, you now know its physical attack stat and the stats of that move.

Just an idea anyway.

Also in favour of some manner of damage projections, at least via scanned enemies. No opinion on whether to use the traditional SRPG raw number, or the less intrusive WA4-5 method of showing the projection against enemy HP. Since I'm in favour of transparent mechanics (read: the damage formulas should be in the database/library), this is nothing more than saving the player the trouble of working out available information himself or herself.

Also agreed.  Status rates should be transparent too (possibly with an "immune" flag if they immune it, though that should be in the analysis info anyway).  Generally find raw numbers better, though I don't know how it'd work in a game that's not really an SRPG.

Shouldn't we have magical stats that deal with how the magic system works? Like, we were discussing how characters may respond differently to dissonance-related healing... should this have a stat?

Uh... hmm.  Maybe these could be some separate "constant" stats (or semi-constant if you want to make them modifiable by equipment or skills, but that doesn't make much sense in this case).

[074]

Equipment: Definitely for the FF6 model where equips generally overlap (a few uniques, but they're not the norm) but every character's weapon pool is unique. This has been described well by a few people.

Also, weapon types should vary from each other in the following ways:
-Multiplier (perhaps accomplished via multiple swings/hits)
-Raw power to overpower defence
-Reach (spears with 2 range, bows with 4, etc.)
-Counter rate
-Critical rate
-Damage type (bludgeoning, piercing, slashing)
-Hit rate
-Ability to overcome certain types of enemy defences (ranged weapons hit fliers, hammers ignore armour, etc.)

Possibly more. Basically, an axe and club should not just be separated by a simple power stat the way they are in Dragon Quest.

This is viable.  We can possibly toss in charge/recovery rate as well for certain weapons.  Furthermore, there's a large number of weapon 'classes' that can be seen as useful here.  The ones I can think of right now are as follows, though some categories clearly overlap.

Thrusting blades (Daggers, fencing swords.  Light and quick, poor power in general, though some may be unusual exceptions)
Curved swords (Cutlass, scimitar, falchion, shamshir come to mind here.  Bad penetration, possibly quick with decent damage.)
'Standard' swords (Shortsword, broadsword, longsword as 1H, as well as any non-curved 2H sword.  Come off as generally 'balanced')
Axes (Throwing, hand axes, 2H axes, halberds.  High damage output, probably...average armor penetration)
Bludgeoning (Clubs, maces, hammers, lucerne hammers, flails.  Good for heavy armor, flails might avoid parrying abilities to boot.)
Spears (Javelins, shortspears, longspears, pikes.  Something tells me that they have some degree of armor penetration.  Might also be good on defense)
Polearms(Glaives, pikes, halberds, lucerne hammers, war scythes...kind of a weird category, but they basically all have reach.  Likely to be slower in general.  Advantage against mounted targets?)
Thrown(Throwing knives, throwing axes, javelins, boomerangs/slashers.  Bolas are stupid and should not be included.)
Projectile(Sling, Bows(longbow, shortbow), crossbow(Light, Heavy, repeating))

...okay.  With such categories and potential overlap of weapon types, I can easily see there being no real need for any sort of unorthodox weapon use.  I'll think of how they can vary at some later point in time.

Scanning. Enemy information. Super important. I don't really care how it's implemented (it could be as simple as information that's permanently available like WA5, or available via the more usual Scan spell, or have different characters specialise in analysing different enemies) but the option is something that I find very valuable to strategy. I'd make the scan a very informative one: it should show stats as well as elemental/status info. Optimally I'd also like it to show descriptions of enemy moves, at least that are already used. I may be getting greedy though. <.<

Also in favour of some manner of damage projections, at least via scanned enemies. No opinion on whether to use the traditional SRPG raw number, or the less intrusive WA4-5 method of showing the projection against enemy HP. Since I'm in favour of transparent mechanics (read: the damage formulas should be in the database/library), this is nothing more than saving the player the trouble of working out available information himself or herself.

Scanning: Hm.  It's viable to have that.  Depending on how you see it and how much you want enemy charging to reveal the attack (simply that it's charging, or up to the name and primary target?).  No thoughts either way on the issue, honestly.  I am in favor of an in-game compendium if that's possible, though.

I'm fine with a WA4-5 style 'bar estimate' method.  Less intrusive, and probably fits more for this anyway; it's not a SRPG, despite having some elements thereof.

Shouldn't we have magical stats that deal with how the magic system works? Like, we were discussing how characters may respond differently to dissonance-related healing... should this have a stat?

Eh.  Not sure myself.  Leaning no on that stat.

[Sir Donald 3.2]

Well, if we aren't going to have the 5 Schools be elements in and of themselves, then perhaps we can have FE-Style Modifiers based on the Proficiency of those Schools.  Kind of like Shadowrun's Skill Concentration builds.  In this case, a Mage that has been dealing with primarily Touch spells but also has some knowledge of Taste/Smell would get, say, a A-B for Touch, a C for Taste, and a D/F for the other senses.  Non D/F ratings invoke modifiers that help with Attack, Accuracy (these two aren't needed so much as they are specialties and the attacks should primarily be of the learned schools), Defense, and Evade (which can come in handy when facing off with a mage of another school.  We could have similar for fighting styles, i.e. Barehanded/Melee Weapon/Ranged.

I'm also wanting to have similar modifiers for Dissonance, Quieting, and Resonance, but unlike the Schools & Weapons Skills, I feel that these should interact as sort of a triangle function.  i.e. a Mage that has devoted himself to the Dissonance method entirely will have great skill with (and defense against) Dissonance-based magic, but would have practically no defense against Quieting or Resonance.  This goes back to the meta-theme of balance.


As for experience... I guess we're going to head to straight levels.  However, I would like to keep open a method of extra stat progression via using skills.  This could go with the FE-style multipliers I mentioned above and translate into extra stats ala Pokemon's EVs, while not impacting levels at all.  Hence, "Leaked (Kill) Experience" would be equal... but then we need to get into Death in Battle.  If we agree that a character that dies doesn't get experience, then we'll have to have Boss "Kill" Exp be around the same as a normal enemy party,  lest we have a character fall behind because he died at the "wrong time".

[Talaysen]

Well, if we aren't going to have the 5 Schools be elements in and of themselves, then perhaps we can have FE-Style Modifiers based on the Proficiency of those Schools.  Kind of like Shadowrun's Skill Concentration builds.  In this case, a Mage that has been dealing with primarily Touch spells but also has some knowledge of Taste/Smell would get, say, a A-B for Touch, a C for Taste, and a D/F for the other senses.  Non D/F ratings invoke modifiers that help with Attack, Accuracy (these two aren't needed so much as they are specialties and the attacks should primarily be of the learned schools), Defense, and Evade (which can come in handy when facing off with a mage of another school.  We could have similar for fighting styles, i.e. Barehanded/Melee Weapon/Ranged.

I'm also wanting to have similar modifiers for Dissonance, Quieting, and Resonance, but unlike the Schools & Weapons Skills, I feel that these should interact as sort of a triangle function.  i.e. a Mage that has devoted himself to the Dissonance method entirely will have great skill with (and defense against) Dissonance-based magic, but would have practically no defense against Quieting or Resonance.  This goes back to the meta-theme of balance.

Eternal Poison did this for elements as well (and more akin to what you're thinking than FE, since it actually doesn't affect anything besides what you can equip in FE, until you get to S, I believe), except it didn't affect accuracy or evade because those stats didn't exist.  It actually worked pretty well.

As for experience... I guess we're going to head to straight levels.  However, I would like to keep open a method of extra stat progression via using skills.  This could go with the FE-style multipliers I mentioned above and translate into extra stats ala Pokemon's EVs, while not impacting levels at all.  Hence, "Leaked (Kill) Experience" would be equal... but then we need to get into Death in Battle.  If we agree that a character that dies doesn't get experience, then we'll have to have Boss "Kill" Exp be around the same as a normal enemy party,  lest we have a character fall behind because he died at the "wrong time".

Death should still give EXP.  Frankly I find death not giving EXP to be completely ridiculous.  A character lives throughout the whole battle, but if he's not alive for the one turn the boss dies on, he suddenly gets no EXP for the fight?  That's just stupid.  He experienced like 95% of the fight.