Author Topic: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Week 29  (Read 6982 times)

Unoriginal

  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 238
    • View Profile
Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Week 29
« Reply #25 on: February 04, 2010, 02:37:17 AM »
The base HP would though, and it's pretty substantial on it's own.  And from what I've seen in the topics, Pika and Lucario are both a bit slower than Bartz, so they'd be stuck with Quick Hit if they wanted to beat him out.  In the end it comes down to how much you respect Falcon Rune, but even with the lowest S2 average they'd all have to pile in on him to take him down before he gets a turn off.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2010, 02:40:15 AM by Unoriginal »

Taishyr

  • Guest
Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Week 29
« Reply #26 on: February 04, 2010, 02:38:42 AM »
Also correct.

I'll vote later.

dude789

  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 1284
    • View Profile
Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Week 29
« Reply #27 on: February 04, 2010, 03:00:13 AM »
The base HP would though, and it's pretty substantial on it's own.  And from what I've seen in the topics, Pika and Lucario are both a bit slower than Bartz, so they'd be stuck with Quick Hit if they wanted to beat him out.  In the end it comes down to how much you respect Falcon Rune, but even with the lowest S2 average they'd all have to pile in on him to take him down before he gets a turn off.
Are you sure he's faster? The FF5 stat topic seems to indicate that the speed spread is very very slim. I don't think any of the classes even reach 110%  which is where Lucario and Pikachu are speedwise.

Unoriginal

  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 238
    • View Profile
Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Week 29
« Reply #28 on: February 04, 2010, 03:12:06 AM »
I could be remembering things wrong, that huge added constant doesn't help matters.

DjinnAndTonic

  • Genie and Potion with Alcoholic Undertones
  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 6942
  • "When you wish upon a bar~"
    • View Profile
    • RPGDL Wiki
Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Week 29
« Reply #29 on: February 04, 2010, 03:49:46 AM »
Wouldn't Peppita go and status out everyone but Robo in that case?  And at this point, if Ditto's Transforming everyone, it's probably better to go Bartz for the giant pile of options(and the piles of HP, but that's beside the point~)

Do you even -have- Chaos Dance at this point? Her other status isn't even arguably MT, and if you're using Chaos Dance, you have no room for the awesome Power Dance/Faerie Friend combo (and likely -one- of these moves isn't at L5+ yet... Peppita is expensive compared to a lot of the other SO3 PCs).

Unoriginal

  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 238
    • View Profile
Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Week 29
« Reply #30 on: February 04, 2010, 03:57:34 AM »
Panic Dance was gained Floor 3.

Clear Tranquil

  • Garden of Innocence
  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 2331
  • Your dreams shatter and burn! Punishing! Blossom!
    • View Profile
Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Week 29
« Reply #31 on: February 04, 2010, 11:26:59 AM »
Faerie Friend won't be L5+ yet since all non dance, symbology and low fury moves like Side Kick take effort to level up. Also I saw Uno as picking up Faerie Friend sometime last floor since I take ten levels per floor with room for flexibility depending on the situation/etc but YMMV and if he's just picked it up it's still probably L1 (this is the level assumed in the stat topic for the record - well everything's L0 according to OK but I'm not sure how that works out >.> - so Uno's not that hard off <.<) :P Getting Faerie Friend from L1 to 2 takes uh ... 39 uses irrc whereas getting a dance to L2 takes less than half of that.

If Uno chooses Panic Dance > Faerie Friend well she can chain that to 300% for averagish damage + the damage from chaos. Since stuff like Energy Burst, Divine Wrath and Max Shockwave aren't kicking around yet Cliff, Mirage and Peppita are happy bunnies and it leaves Peppita room for at least some flexibility to do something other than her overthetop big damage combo (whereas she'll probably want to stick to that post game if she's your main damage dealer) I don't know if mere average is enough for this floor though. Peppita resists the Pokemon's status at least (except Venusaur bleh) and has counters for sticking around a bit longer for those who allow them. Faerie Friend's whirlwind section being decent GT/suction might also help? It's ok if peeps don't give SO3 AoE/GT respect though.

Quote
Peppita is expensive compared to a lot of the other SO3 PCs).

Is this a bad thing?  ;-)

Honestly I'm just happy and glad Peppy worked out so well and helped get Uno's team this far. She's being more widely recognised and respected in the DL/dungeon now which means this 28 year old heart can rest more easy ^_~
« Last Edit: February 04, 2010, 01:21:24 PM by Clear Tranquil »
"A Yeul that loved to sing. A Yeul who wished to travel. A Yeul that collected flowers.... Every one of them was unique"

Yoshiken

  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 2068
  • Yay!
    • View Profile
Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Week 29
« Reply #32 on: February 04, 2010, 12:32:00 PM »
As far as Ditto copying status/element resistances goes, he'd copy any innate traits, but not any equipment-given ones, since he copies the basic resistances (like Fire-type immuning Burn) but not things granted by hold items.

Clear Tranquil

  • Garden of Innocence
  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 2331
  • Your dreams shatter and burn! Punishing! Blossom!
    • View Profile
Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Week 29
« Reply #33 on: February 04, 2010, 01:32:12 PM »
Thanks Yoshi.

Hnnn ... apparently Bartz can get anti thunder and anti paralysis gear as well. Dunno if they're available/legal at this point (just briefly checked a FAQ) but might be worth thinking about? Yeah I'll look more into this at the weekend.

Need to check what stuff Aeris has kicking around as well since Uno has an MT reviver in her if she sticks around long enough to get a limit off. Hnnn ... I think her Restore materia should be mastered by this point?
"A Yeul that loved to sing. A Yeul who wished to travel. A Yeul that collected flowers.... Every one of them was unique"

SnowFire

  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 4964
    • View Profile
Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Week 29
« Reply #34 on: February 05, 2010, 03:56:08 AM »
Huh.  So if the Yuris beat up Luna first...  Alex...  RDAs, yes (and kills Ditto?  No, wait, Ditto transforms into Alex, tanks it).  This would be after Ricardo's turn so no Arc Cure hype.  Next turn, though, Ghaleon launches his damage at Yuri2 and kills him (that + the RDA).  Ricardo can Arc Cure to revive everyone....  but I wouldn't let them get turns fast enough to stop from being flattened by Alex's upcoming RDA, and I don't think Yuri1 can status Alex out or anything?  Wait, Ditto still exists and is Alex and can BDH.  So uh never mind, Ghaleon must kill Ditto instead, not Yuri2.  The Yuris...  I guess now that they're both alive, they kill off Alex as before, since I think Lucia's DEF buff is only to PDef, not MDef.  Ghaleon charges up his slow MT damage on turn 3 to wipe out everyone that Ricardo brought back with Arc Cure....  and actually here's the problem.  Now that Arnaud & Ditto are death-locked, and Ricardo's MT healing is halved, that leaves Yuri healing.  Which is generally all single-target.  I guess if Arnaud can stay alive long enough somewhere to Slow Down Ghaleon...  he is faster than average after all...  just not THAT much faster so the odds are meh.  On the other hand the Yuri / Ricardo MP reserves aren't THAT bad pre-Seraphic Radiance....  and if SP's an issue Amon also handles that?

That fight is a mess.  I'll change my Nephrite vote to abstain for now at least.

As for Unoriginal: Did creatures killed with X-Zone give XP / money?  Even if Bartz Slowgas them all, 4 counters will surely kill him, and if Ditto transforms, the FEers use their regular turns to annihilate him.  I doubt your team wins the final fight with Bartz and Ditto down. 

Unoriginal

  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 238
    • View Profile
Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Week 29
« Reply #35 on: February 05, 2010, 04:04:15 AM »
Think they did, but in that fight he'd probably have Odin ready to go.  And there's always Quick->Stopx2.

Nephrite

  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 2052
  • President of the Great United States of America
    • View Profile
Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Week 29
« Reply #36 on: February 05, 2010, 04:22:11 AM »
Think they did, but in that fight he'd probably have Odin ready to go.  And there's always Quick->Stopx2.

Assuming people allow those spells at this point, sure. What would he NOT have available to him if you don't allow the Mirage spells?


As for Snowfire's analysis, here's my more comprehensive breakdown on the fight:

Ditto turns into Alex. Ghaleon hits Arnaud, we'll say he does 80% and paralyzes him. Ricardo throws a Gale on Yuri2. Yuri2 and Yuri1 team up with magic and take out Luna and Lucia. Alex RDAs, killing Arnaud and hurting the rest. Ditto now... casts White Dragon Protect. This means that Ghaleon has to do something else. If he goes for Comet he loses out on his speed advantage, so he can't really do that. We'll say he Purple Circles Ditto Alex. Ricardo revives Arnaud, Yuris pound on Alex. If they don't kill him he RDAs and... oops, White Dragon Protect. This kills Ditto Alex, but at this point it doesn't really matter. Ghaleon can take out anyone at this point but it really makes no difference. Yuri1 also has MT healing that he can use if it's a huge concern.

Unoriginal

  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 238
    • View Profile
Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Week 29
« Reply #37 on: February 05, 2010, 04:37:08 AM »
Actually, I'm not sure.  Need to check on availabilities again.  I know some Blue stuff's floor 7, and I imagine stuff like Bahamut and Meteor might be too.

SnowFire

  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 4964
    • View Profile
Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Week 29
« Reply #38 on: February 05, 2010, 04:39:14 AM »
Sure I'll say Nephrite passes, don't know Nyx Avatar too well but he wins the other fights.  Don't buy "Ditto goes first!" hype when Alex has average speed and in Pokemon, having a fast turn 1 is irrelevant to how fast your turn 2 is (though I might be inconsistent here?), but Galing Yuri2 should help win the heal-off, since with those extra turns he has time for things like Mind Assault.

DjinnAndTonic

  • Genie and Potion with Alcoholic Undertones
  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 6942
  • "When you wish upon a bar~"
    • View Profile
    • RPGDL Wiki
Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Week 29
« Reply #39 on: February 05, 2010, 05:07:02 AM »

Ditto turns into Alex. Ghaleon hits Arnaud, we'll say he does 80% and paralyzes him.

Why is Ghaleon focusing on Arnaud and not Ricardo or Ditto?

Quote
Ricardo throws a Gale on Yuri2. Yuri2 and Yuri1 team up with magic and take out Luna and Lucia. Alex RDAs, killing Arnaud and hurting the rest.

How good is Alex's elemental resistance? Even with Alex defenses, Ditto still has Ditto HP and unless he's getting essentially Fire immunity, he's probably getting one-shotted by RDA.


Nephrite

  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 2052
  • President of the Great United States of America
    • View Profile
Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Week 29
« Reply #40 on: February 05, 2010, 05:34:22 AM »

Ditto turns into Alex. Ghaleon hits Arnaud, we'll say he does 80% and paralyzes him.

Why is Ghaleon focusing on Arnaud and not Ricardo or Ditto?


If Ghaleon doesn't take out Arnaud, Arnaud will Slow Down Alex who will basically never see a turn after that. He could alternatively use Sleep to take Alex out that way, too.

I believe Alex halves elemental damage which means Ditto should survive... if barely.

EDIT: vvvvvvvvvvv That's... an interesting take on it. I can't disagree since it makes perfect sense, haha.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2010, 06:20:22 AM by Nephrite »

SnowFire

  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 4964
    • View Profile
Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Week 29
« Reply #41 on: February 05, 2010, 06:00:08 AM »
Well more specifically *Ghaleon* gets Slowed Down, not Alex.  Though Slowing Down Alex would be okay, as it forces him to use his basic physical (Alex's regular attack has move + attack, Raquel can wander out of Slow Down'd Hexes and attack no problem, so I'd see the same thing here).

Alex halves all Lunar elements, meaning Fire / Ice / Lightning.  If Ditto doesn't transform into Alex then he gets fried by RDA.

Magic Fanatic

  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 1352
  • As if it wasn't already.
    • View Profile
Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Week 29
« Reply #42 on: February 05, 2010, 07:24:27 AM »
Alex halves all Lunar elements, meaning Fire / Ice / Lightning.  If Ditto doesn't transform into Alex then he gets fried by RDA.

Question: Is it ALEX that resists all the Lunar elements, or his equipment?

Clear Tranquil

  • Garden of Innocence
  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 2331
  • Your dreams shatter and burn! Punishing! Blossom!
    • View Profile
Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Week 29
« Reply #43 on: February 05, 2010, 01:28:00 PM »
Fun thing if Bartz and Ditto die Princess Guard powers up to triple strength. I've had a powerlevelled Aerith scoring 9999s left, right and center in the Temple of the Ancients before (yeah I know baad CT >.>) I imagine Aerith would have gained most of those levels naturally in the dungeon by this point but the enemies will also have increased defences too. However there's also Power Dance to consider, with that Aerith's physicals will be hitting for five to six times the strength depending on PD's level. Princess Guard's power up is similar to SO3's 'Raging Anger' effect where if an ally dies and someone gets pissed off their ATK doubles. Power Dance/Power Up/etc stack with that. This means Aerith's physicals are suddenly uhh ... decent or something? I suppose that would depend on the averages that are being used =-)

Edit: Right. Well from Meeple's data on Aerith's base physicals in the stat topic, adding in two ded allies + a L10 Power Dance her physical came out at 5027 for that part of the game (with a 300% cancel bonus Power Dance that would be 5292) Still has to be scaled up and weighed against defences (which might just balance each other out)
« Last Edit: February 05, 2010, 05:14:47 PM by Clear Tranquil »
"A Yeul that loved to sing. A Yeul who wished to travel. A Yeul that collected flowers.... Every one of them was unique"

SnowFire

  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 4964
    • View Profile
Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Week 29
« Reply #44 on: February 05, 2010, 02:35:50 PM »
Alex halves all Lunar elements, meaning Fire / Ice / Lightning.  If Ditto doesn't transform into Alex then he gets fried by RDA.

Question: Is it ALEX that resists all the Lunar elements, or his equipment?

His equipment but if you don't let Ditto copy equipment-related stat changes in the DL then he is an awful awful awful Puny which doesn't really feel fair.

Magic Fanatic

  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 1352
  • As if it wasn't already.
    • View Profile
Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Week 29
« Reply #45 on: February 05, 2010, 02:51:36 PM »
His equipment but if you don't let Ditto copy equipment-related stat changes in the DL then he is an awful awful awful Puny which doesn't really feel fair.

As far as I know, he doesn't copy equipment/items in-game, just what he keeps equipped...  Therefore, due to what's in-game, I'm not likely to extend that coverage to Ditto - it's not what Transform does at all.

If you want to let Transform have extra effects/coverages in the DL compared to what it does in-game, be my guest; I don't think that's right, myself...  I mean, it's not like Ditto's suddenly losing that Quick Powder after transforming, right?

And as for being a Puny...  He IS a 0.5 pick, after all.

SnowFire

  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 4964
    • View Profile
Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Week 29
« Reply #46 on: February 05, 2010, 11:39:27 PM »
I see the logic, but copying characters as if they were unequipped seriously feels like an overly legalistic consistency and not in tune with the spirit of the move.  At best I'd say that's an argument for not copying accessories.  It's impossible in Pokemon for half somebody's attack stat to be from a "weapon" since everything is inherent.  The result is that Ditto would translate in a wildly unintuitive way to the DL where, even ignoring Ditto's other problems, he would automatically lose against basically all PCs (and would continue to do so if he had great HP and other starting stats). When something like that happens, I think that's a sign that something is wrong and see if there's some way the character can be interpreted more intuitively.

I'd be especially wary of doing that in the Dungeon.  I have my own wacky theories about some characters but I try and keep the strangest of them out, or at least the ones that would massively change a character's point value.  If my interp of a 4.0 character makes him a 1.0 character, well, for the purposes of the Dungeon and of being fair to the person who picked that person, use the interp that makes them at least closer to a 4.0.  It's not quite so bad with Ditto but that's still changing a 0.5 character to a 0.0 character pretty much.  (Yes, situational use against monsters / bosses /characters from games without equipment, but bad AND very specific limited use.)

Yoshiken

  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 2068
  • Yay!
    • View Profile
Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Week 29
« Reply #47 on: February 06, 2010, 12:09:04 AM »
The result is that Ditto would translate in a wildly unintuitive way to the DL where, even ignoring Ditto's other problems, he would automatically lose against basically all PCs (and would continue to do so if he had great HP and other starting stats).

There's a reason he's labelled as Puny on the stat topic as well as being a 0.5 pick after doubling speed.
He has his uses in the Dungeon - take Firefly, for example, alongside Ryu/TL - but he is still not worth much due to the time it takes to get going. If you can get Ditto its turns, it'll probably do damn well, it just needs that support.

Nephrite

  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 2052
  • President of the Great United States of America
    • View Profile
Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Week 29
« Reply #48 on: February 06, 2010, 12:29:55 AM »
The result is that Ditto would translate in a wildly unintuitive way to the DL where, even ignoring Ditto's other problems, he would automatically lose against basically all PCs (and would continue to do so if he had great HP and other starting stats).

There's a reason he's labelled as Puny on the stat topic as well as being a 0.5 pick after doubling speed.
He has his uses in the Dungeon - take Firefly, for example, alongside Ryu/TL - but he is still not worth much due to the time it takes to get going. If you can get Ditto its turns, it'll probably do damn well, it just needs that support.

I didn't know Quick Powder doubled his speed originally, I probably need to increase him to 1.0 because of that.

Clear Tranquil

  • Garden of Innocence
  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 2331
  • Your dreams shatter and burn! Punishing! Blossom!
    • View Profile
Re: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Week 29
« Reply #49 on: February 06, 2010, 02:39:38 AM »
Team Unoriginal | Bartz, Fogel, Peppita, Aeris, Ditto (Quick Powder)(MT)
[Bartz: Mime, Mix, Summon, Time] (Monk/Thief/Chemist/Time Mage)
[Floor 6c: Super Smash]
*These enemies take 40% damage from all attacks. (i.e An attack that does 200 normal damage does 80 to them)
Team Unoriginal vs. Ursula, Peter, Frog and Bob (S2) - Fogel and Peppita no care about puny 40% reduction
*The enemies get to doubleact.
Team Unoriginal vs. Valeria, Robo, Pikachu, Wigglytuff and Lucario - Ok I'll buy Ditto double speed, faster than Heracross   with Choice Scarf hype (thank you pokewiki) I don't know how fast Valeria is but I'm willing to give Ditto the benefit of the doubt here. Any energy expended on Ditto and/or Fogel (does Pikachu hit Fogel's evade at all?) means that less pressure is being piled on Bartz and if he does have anti thunder/paralysis gear to add to his plentiful healing/revival he either just supports/buffs/revives/healz while Peppita smashes and Aeris also helps to hold the forte with Cure 3 + Regen (stuff like Dragon Power - Halves physical and magical damage - Protect Drink for Safe/Protect, Dragon Shield for elemental resists and Giant's Drink for HP doubling help -a lot- for stalling) or statuses out peeps while Peppita smashes. If he goes for the stall that's another thing added to the chances of Aerith getting a limit =P I haven't really thought about Pep's counters for this fight but when in doubt go with counters base physicals and normals =P If nothing else they will reduce *some* of the damage Peppita takes and combined with Bartz/Aeris supporting this leaves her more leeway for smashing. Bartz is probably the most dangerous person on Uno's team (even if he doesn't have Mirage stuff and if he does why is this floor in debate >.> Bartz probably breezes with Mirage stuff) but Fogel and Peppita are also very dangerous (and this is with ignoring any argument for FF's GT)  plus the threat of Aerith's limits can't be ignored either. If enemies start by making Ditto ded they're ignoring Uno's most dangerous player and if they make Bartz ded they're ignoring Fogel and Peppita >.> <.< >.> Ignoring any of these three and letting them run rampent isn't good.
*The enemies must be killed twice. They resurrect fully restored when they are killed. If they are hit with a fatal status, they remove it and lose a "life."              
Team Unoriginal vs Mario, Toadstool and Bowser- Fogel SMASH, Peppita SMASH and then powerdanced Fogel and Peppita SMASH again.  
*All actions against these enemies can be countered, including debuffs. They must counter with a weapon attack.
Team Unoriginal vs. Ike, Roy, Marth and Lyn - Don't counters own Fire Emblem?
*These PCs cannot be hit with any kind of status or stat downs, including things like MP Damage, equip breaks or otherwise unblockable status.
Team Unoriginal vs. Ness, Charizard, Blastoise and Venusaur - Worst case scenario. Let's go with Snowfire and say Bartz and Ditto are ded. After poking around in dungeon chat with various questions on Charizard's damage options I'm confident Charizard's normals don't flat out OHKO Peppita and Aeris (might be close in the latter's case but yeah - that also makes it more likely she's getting a limit) and I allow Peppita to counter Pokemon Normal/Normalish/Fighting types anyway. They have Flare Ring (on a weapon if need be) and Dragon/Fire Armlet for his fire moves. Aeris also has a sleep blocker. Say Fogel/Peppita SMASH takes Ness, with Charizard attacking Peppita in between Fogel and Peppita's turn, Venusaur then sleeps Peppita, Aeris healz, Blastoise does something but Fogel and Aeris w/th Princess Guard are now powerdanced. Should be enough to take out Charizard and the team has a speed advantage from there. Even if a sleeping Peppita does become ded this only means enemies are going to have to target Aeris eventually and I think she's able to keep up with the remaining damage here with Cure3 which means limit Pulse of Life. Then everyone becomes alive again >.>

A single limit from Aerith at any point puts this floor in the bag for Uno and I think she eventually does manage to get at least one sooner or later unless you're really, really harsh on limits or something <.<  Having a limit lying ready in wait for taking on a boss is not unusual in game anyway, I think I'll allow that for dungeon bosses too. At least allowing Aerith to start with a 50% bar works. Limit initiative when selected is also something to consider.

EDIT-Better case scenario, Ditto transfers into Peppita for the Fire Emblers and counter haxes away (assuming those Fire Emblers are ones with short range melee weapons and/or attacks >.>) Since Peppy doesn't take damage during her counter frames Ditto HP is less of a concern =-)
« Last Edit: February 09, 2010, 02:11:48 PM by Clear Tranquil »
"A Yeul that loved to sing. A Yeul who wished to travel. A Yeul that collected flowers.... Every one of them was unique"