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Author Topic: DL Playership Drive- Winter 2010  (Read 11414 times)

Cmdr_King

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Re: DL Playership Drive- Winter 2010
« Reply #50 on: February 14, 2010, 05:21:39 AM »
I said, earlier today, that I was pretty sure Soul Nomad would 'win'.  This was because it was the only 20+ player game which I hadn't seen bottoming out any lists.
I was almost right.

It turns out that, because lists were really damned big this time, the top end interest games got a huge boost.  As such, the best played of THOSE games, Mana Khemia 2, won by a lot.  So, y'know, I think it's telling us something there.

Otherwise, nothing truly unexpected.  SRW, despite some commanding playership, is really low.  Between that and significant DNRs, I don't think it's worth persuing.
KotOR and Eternal Sonata both achieved XS3 tier.
The PS3 games got their butts handed to them.  Meanwhilst, Tales of Vesperia did, if not good, then less bad than it's player count would suggest. 

Persona 1 was strange.  Largely because technically speaking it's a ranked game.  While low counts on new players from the PSP version wasn't unexpected, being below half the field for players total was.  Either there's more P2 voters than we realized, or there's been a bigger shift in voting than we'd have thought.  Something to chew on.

Tierkreis did worse on players by a llittle than I'd have thought.  Meanwhile, VPDS's playership is solid and it's got the best writer count.  Cool beans, as a fan of the game.

SO1 won in playership, and did better-than-I'd-have-thought for interest, but that version split worries me.  That a bunch of people that played it didn't say which version has also gotten them on The List.  Doom is coming.
DQV did similarly well despite being pretty bad last topic.  I choose to blame super.  General sentiment of "will be ranked someday" applies.

Soul Nomad.. well.  I think that, given the level of interest displayed overall, we should really really see if we can't decide whether it's rankable or not.  There were less DNRs than I expected, and I'm not sure if this means that people are more comfortable with it, if they were just more "I am uneasy" than "DNR DNR DNR!!!!", of even if I just can't read.

Anyway, less CK more otehr people.
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Dhyerwolf

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Re: DL Playership Drive- Winter 2010
« Reply #51 on: February 14, 2010, 07:12:27 AM »
Either there's more P2 voters than we realized, or there's been a bigger shift in voting than we'd have thought.  Something to chew on.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Neither one I think. Ellen/Nate have always just somewhat well even while drawing shittily I think. I highly doubt it's because of a wealth of P2 voters!
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Dark Holy Elf

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Re: DL Playership Drive- Winter 2010
« Reply #52 on: February 14, 2010, 07:41:07 AM »
Thoughts:

-Just doing a quick reread of the topic, although I guess only two people outright said DNR for Soul Nomad, a bunch more of us were too lazy to do so but had comments indicating they are clearly leaning in that direction. Myself included!

-SO1 frankly just failed it up in my eyes. Even assuming that all of the ??? people have played the same version, any given version has a playership of at most 14 players. If they're split 3/2 on versions then the stronger one has 12. This is 4-6 behind, say, MK2 and FE10. (DQ5 escapes my ire here because from what I gather the two versions are fairly similar, although 6+ SNES only folks are probably enough to get me to oppose anyone DS-only?)

-Covenant has nice numbers, though it's a highly problematic rank; if the purpose of this topic is to encourage a playership drive it seems a poor one to focus on. Still, there are worse filler ideas, because it does have at least a small core of relatively problem-free ranks in Cheripha and Lockswell.

-OG1 similarly has nice numbers but is an even worse ranking idea due to, uh, 6 DNRs. Not worth bothering as always.

-FE10, DQ5, and MK2 are the games I come out of this topic feeling happiest about because they are the only 3 games to be both reasonably high in players and with the few to no major strikes against them in rankability. Already touched on the other strongly played games (VPDS, SN, OG1, SO1 kinda). MK2 would be the uber-winner with its ease of access and high interest, which... should hopefully overcome the fact that the cast is 100% splitpath. Suspect it will, though. My support for next time (aside from possible FWs) will definitely be drawn from this trio.

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superaielman

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Re: DL Playership Drive- Winter 2010
« Reply #53 on: February 14, 2010, 01:43:08 PM »
Either there's more P2 voters than we realized, or there's been a bigger shift in voting than we'd have thought.  Something to chew on.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Neither one I think. Ellen/Nate have always just somewhat well even while drawing shittily I think. I highly doubt it's because of a wealth of P2 voters!

Yeah, Nate's a high profile godlike ( BtS) and that has always helped him pull his weight to a large degree.

Quote
-SO1 frankly just failed it up in my eyes. Even assuming that all of the Huh? people have played the same version, any given version has a playership of at most 14 players. If they're split 3/2 on versions then the stronger one has 12. This is 4-6 behind, say, MK2 and FE10. (DQ5 escapes my ire here because from what I gather the two versions are fairly similar, although 6+ SNES only folks are probably enough to get me to oppose anyone DS-only?)

I'd be fine with someone who was DS was easy to get, but DQ5's DS only PC is also an obscure splitpath. Yuck. 
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OblivionKnight

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Re: DL Playership Drive- Winter 2010
« Reply #54 on: February 14, 2010, 02:12:54 PM »
Is Deborah like Flora in the SNES version, where you never get to use her until you marry her and wait for 90% of the game to use her at the end?  Bianca is the only one you got to use in the SNES version, even for a little bit?  Hell, you got to use Bianca twice - once as a child, then again when exploring the dungeon for the Water Ring before the marriage. 

My main pushes are really going to be SN and DQ5 at this point.  MK2 and FE10 follow that.  AND WIZARD OF OZ.  >_>
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superaielman

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Re: DL Playership Drive- Winter 2010
« Reply #55 on: February 14, 2010, 03:32:24 PM »
Yeah, Debora's got a fairly limited time frame of use. She's a useful PC when she's around, but that... yeah.
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Cmdr_King

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Re: DL Playership Drive- Winter 2010
« Reply #56 on: February 14, 2010, 06:37:07 PM »
blah, adding CNP data now.  'tis relevant and all.
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Cmdr_King

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Re: DL Playership Drive- Winter 2010
« Reply #57 on: February 14, 2010, 06:49:40 PM »
Quote
FE10, DQ5, and MK2 are the games I come out of this topic feeling happiest about because they are the only 3 games to be both reasonably high in players and with the few to no major strikes against them in rankability

I have to disagree on FE10.  It just sorta looks crummy on every metric used.  Playership is a step down from the top, writers are surprisingly weak, there's not really the sort of "WANT TO PLAY SO MUCH" vibe Mana Khemia 2 gets, and over half of the non players responding can't play the game (assuming all the people who didn't tag it were being honest, which is unlikely.  It's probably closer to 3/4ths).

Mind, no game looks like a slam dunk right now, not even theoretical everyone-who-played-SO1-counts Star Ocean.  Keep in mind, with 36 respondents, and an average hovering between 60 and 65 in the DL, this topic represents over half the DL now.  If we suppose that the non-responders are more casual and thusly are less likely to have played anything (a safe one I think), then obviously any game here needs to be very, very solid to really be called 'ready'. 
I've been thinking of about 70% being the cutoff, which would translate to 25 players here.  FE10's issue is that, even if every person who didn't CNP the game actually could play it, they'd ALL have to do so to hit 25 players.  Considering that there's probably a reason they haven't played the game yet, this is unbelievably optimistic.

In other words, until we work out some sort of Wii distribution system, or magically get more people buying them, it's just not really up to rankable status.
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Dark Holy Elf

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Re: DL Playership Drive- Winter 2010
« Reply #58 on: February 14, 2010, 09:29:32 PM »
Personally I don't really give a crap about CNP. Are we supposed to not rank anything from next-gen systems ever? Obviously fewer people own the next-gen systems but if something looks like it is getting close anyway I am going to support it.

I actually take the opposite tack as you and, from what I've seen, believe that next-gen systems do better with non-responders than responders. For something like, say, Wizard of Oz, I'd agree with you that non-responders are less likely to have played it, but big-ticket games like Tales of Vesperia and Fire Emblem 10? No. I mean, I tend to assume that if anything, casuals are closer to GameFAQs, which has 66% Wii ownership and 58% 360 ownership.

Quote
I've been thinking of about 70% being the cutoff, which would translate to 25 players here.

So nothing is rankable then? <_< Highest number in this topic is 21. I tend to view the 18-21 spread as fairly insignificant, which is why I drew attention to the six-seven games with that much. (Next highest is 12, quite a bit lower.) It's pretty clear that they are the ones that deserve attention right now, and half of them have significant problems, sooo (and have at most 2-3 more players than FE10!).

70% seems pretty unreasonable to me, given divergent DL tastes in games. Not sure where I would set a cutoff if anywhere, it'd depend on case to case (as I mentioned, I will hold the likes of VPDS to a higher standard than I will less problematic ranks like DQ5 and FE10).

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hinode

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Re: DL Playership Drive- Winter 2010
« Reply #59 on: February 14, 2010, 09:50:38 PM »
Would it be possible for you to compile CNP numbers for the writer base instead of total responders, CK? While a theoretical high percentage of casual votes could offset non-writer forum regulars who can't/won't play a game, they can't make up for our fundamental need for writers. Something with only 6 or 7/18 writers is in a pretty dire place unless there's real growth potential sometime in the near future.

superaielman

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Re: DL Playership Drive- Winter 2010
« Reply #60 on: February 14, 2010, 09:55:49 PM »
Quote
Personally I don't really give a crap about CNP. Are we supposed to not rank anything from next-gen systems ever? Obviously fewer people own the next-gen systems but if something looks like it is getting close anyway I am going to support it.

We've pretty much done that to this point. I'm not sure if PS3/360/Wii are even rankable yet just by playership access. The fact that FE10 is the first and has hit a brick wall is a pretty bad sign there.
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Dark Holy Elf

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Re: DL Playership Drive- Winter 2010
« Reply #61 on: February 14, 2010, 10:03:26 PM »
Yeah, I'm aware we haven't ranked any and I know why. You'll note I've yet to support a next-gen game in the ranking topic! I just dislike the very defeatist attitude that hyping the CNP stat carries. Let the writer and player numbers speak for themselves.

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Cmdr_King

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Re: DL Playership Drive- Winter 2010
« Reply #62 on: February 14, 2010, 11:42:51 PM »
Quote
So nothing is rankable then? <_<

That was the implication, yes >.>

But more accurately, if rankings were tomorrow?  I wouldn't support any game listed.
Rankings are not tomorrow.  They're in... what, June?  So really, we could in theory pick any game, and in that time, get the entire DL to play it.  Even accounting for shipping time, time to play the game, and all that, four months is a lot of time to work with.
My feeling is more that a game finishing third in a ranking topic should look much better than FE10 actually does right now.  It's frustrating as hell, but the facts are pretty strongly against it right now.  Even supposing we take GFAQs at face value, and further assume all Wii owners have played FE10... we have 36 voters here, so say 30 non-responders in the DL voting base.  So, 20 Wii Owners/FE10 players.  That means we have 38 players out of a hypothetical 66 voters... a meager 57.6% vote draw.  While this is at least rankable, we've assumed a lot to get there.

hinode- I didn't happen to save any CNP data at all in my own notes actually, but I could take 10 minutes and figure it out easily enough.  FE10... I have 9 writers on the whipping list, of whom 6 listed themselves as CNP (and Super doesn't have a wii but didn't seem to think this was CNP worthy).  Of the three non-responding writers, I know at least 2 also can't play it.
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Dark Holy Elf

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Re: DL Playership Drive- Winter 2010
« Reply #63 on: February 15, 2010, 06:27:01 PM »
Quote
So really, we could in theory pick any game, and in that time, get the entire DL to play it.

Once you're into that territory, though, you need to stop and think about what games this is worth doing this for. The main reason I elevate FE10 to the level of MK2 and DQ5 despite being behind them in interest level in this topic is because I believe its interest level is higher outside the core responders (in a similar fashion to other Nintendo console games such as ToS and FE9 were), and that this was demonstrated in the last ranking period. Now, it's possible that at the end of the day, it isn't enough to catch it up (which would suggest we're barrelling down on a DQ5/MK2 ranking period next time). This is fine. But it certainly deserves consideration, especially when paired with the fact that FE10 in the DL seems to inspire more caring than DQ5, if likely not MK2.

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Yoshiken

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Re: DL Playership Drive- Winter 2010
« Reply #64 on: February 15, 2010, 06:32:25 PM »
That's where each of those three has it's strengths, though. MK2 has a decent internal draw and is popular amongst the DL. DQ5 is well-played and has the DS draw, but is an average game other than that. FE10 has a low internal but high external draw and is liked by those who have played it.

Personally, out of those, I'd pick MK2 and FE10, since I think there are better ranks to focus on for pulling in the DS draw and DQ5 (seemingly) has a low cast for ranking.

OblivionKnight

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Re: DL Playership Drive- Winter 2010
« Reply #65 on: February 15, 2010, 07:20:19 PM »
Randomly, where does Lost Odyssey stand here?  It has sold exceptionally well, and is on the XBox (where ToV and BD are), so has better penetration than the PS3 stuff.
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Re: DL Playership Drive- Winter 2010
« Reply #66 on: February 15, 2010, 07:32:35 PM »
I have played it and I think Eph has? Tal started it but didn't finish it. It isn't well-liked at all, and I don't think anyone here has actually gone to the trouble of outright *beating* it.

Cmdr_King

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Re: DL Playership Drive- Winter 2010
« Reply #67 on: February 15, 2010, 08:43:30 PM »
Quote
The main reason I elevate FE10 to the level of MK2 and DQ5 despite being behind them in interest level in this topic is because I believe its interest level is higher outside the core responders (in a similar fashion to other Nintendo console games such as ToS and FE9 were), and that this was demonstrated in the last ranking period.

Was it?

List of people supporting FE10 last rankings: Neph, Andy, Lance, snowfire, Yakko, Excal, Eph, Sei, Tal
Of them, Eph, Tal, Excal, Snowfire, and Andrew responded here.  Two of them, Snowfire and Andrew, haven't actually played FE10 (Snowfire can't, in fact.  Andrew has a Wii but hasn't played FE10 yet.)
So, Neph, Yakko, Lance, and Sei.  Of them, Lance and Sei responded in the last topic but not this one.  Lance, from his comments, hadn't played FE10 at the time but was about to, so he probably simply played it since.  Sei, however, didn't list it at all, leading me to suspect that he can't actually play it.  He and Snowfire both left comments along the lines of "well, we have to rank a Wii/360/PS3 game SOMETIME".
I mean, unless there were an uncommon number of suggestions for FE10 (I can't see that part of the site) from non-posting voters, I'm not really seeing any evidence of sizable external support.  And without that, we're looking at the same basic problem; internal has hit a wall just short of rankability.  Coupled with the relatively light writer count, I'm not really in favor of ranking the game as things stand, and since FE10 picks up players fairly slowly, without some sort of active effort on our part it's not going to be that much better by the next ranking season.

The problem is I just don't see much that can be done to help the game.  I know that I wouldn't be willing to trust my Wii to USPS or have it out of my possession for months, and I can't imagine many in the DL would be.  So barring badgering people into buying them for one game (or something even crazier, like pooling money to BUY people the system) I'm really at a loss.
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Re: DL Playership Drive- Winter 2010
« Reply #68 on: February 18, 2010, 07:29:27 PM »
Alrighty, time to refocus the topic.  Games of immediate interest are Mana Khemia 2 and the 20+ crowd sans Star Ocean 1 (my understanding of the split between them, unfortunately, leads me to feel that unless the PSP version could stand on its own, it's not really ready) and SRW:OG (hit hard by DNR).  This gives us...

Mana Khemia 2: Djinn, Nama, Yoshi, Super, Soppy, Doma, Shale, MEEPLE, Snowfire, Magic, Twil, Mage, Scar, Tonfa, Random, Sage, Rozalia, CT

Dragon Quest V:  Djinn, Monkey, Nama, Dhyer, Soppy, Shale, Ciato, Elfboy, Magic, Twil, Mage, Tonfa, Random, Rozalia, Andrew, CT

Valkyrie Profile: Covenant of the Plume- Nama, Yoshi, Soppy, Doma, Bard, Ciato, Snowfire, Eph, Nitori, Magic, Scar, Trancey, Tonfa, Andrew, CT

Soul Nomad: Alanna, Yoshi, Soppy, Doma, Shale, Elfboy, MEEPLE, Snowfire, Nitori, Magic, Twil, Random, Rozalia, Andrew, CT

So those with the means to play these games, if you could do so that'd be great.  For those that lack copies of games, we'll see what we can do.



re: Soul Nomad-

Since everyone seems content to complain about the game without really discussing the matter, I suppose I should summarize some viewpoints.

Case against is in largely two points  1) the DL cast is completely alien to the in-game cast and 2) Revya is headache.
To elaborate, Soul Nomad uses an unusual mechanic in which characters are organized into Rooms.  These rooms have a variety of traits (for example, they might impart First Strike, deal damage upon being summoned, a number of things).  These rooms may have anything from 1 to 9 characters, and on the field are summoned, move, attack/defend, and gain turns as a unit.  Rooms are arranged in 3x3 squares, with 3 slots on the front, middle, and back row.  Each unit has a different attack based on what row they are placed in.  The movement, affinity, turn speed, and what field tactics are available to a Room is determined by its Leader.  The precise number of slots available to a Room, and what bonuses it imparts, are randomly determined with a Room is generated.  There is no direct way to control what sort of traits a Room has, so essentially you have to roll the dice every time you make new rooms and keep trying until you get what you want.  Additionally, at the start of any given level, only one Room, Revya's, is deployed.  Revya has a unique command which allows her to summon other rooms to battle, and always acts first.  This can be used as many times as desired (as long as there is room in range to deploy the Room) per turn, and does not cost Revya anything aside from that Room already being deployed.  Revya additionally has special items which allow her to interact with town members.  These items can steal items or money from them, but a third interaction allows Revya to 'Fuse' with them, essentially draining a portion of their energy to permanently raise one of her stats.  While each NPC can be used once, and the scale of the reward draws from a limited pool, the precise stat and how much is gained is randomized.

These issues are traditionally resolved as such.  The rankable cast is assumed to be the leader of a room containing only them.  The character may place themselves on whatever row is beneficial, but the Room is assumed to impart no bonuses (a check against the insane randomness of the Room generation system).  With these in play, the characters are all fairly distinct and, while an invalid strategy in game, is an adequate representation of how the cast would preform solo and is imitable by players wishing to see how the cast performs using DL parameters.
Revya is assumed to be unrankable.  The ability to summon an army, coupled with the fluctuating nature of her stats, makes her unsuitable for the DL setting.  Additionally, given full use of the system, she can summon overwhelming offense in the form of First Strike Rooms which she summons on her initiative turn- in other words, not realistically beatable in the DL setting.

I believe this covers everything.
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Re: DL Playership Drive- Winter 2010
« Reply #69 on: February 18, 2010, 07:38:13 PM »
I guess it's a little late, but:

Played:
Mother 3
DQ V (SNES and DS, going to play PS2 version too)
Suikoden: T
Star Ocean 1 (SNES, maybe PSP version sometime)
Wizard of Oz
SRW: OG
Knights of the Old Republic
Fire Emblem 10
Persona 1 (PS, will get PSP version when it's a little cheaper)

Interested:

MK2
Soul Nomad


Little Inerest because no console:

Tales of Vesperia (360)
Disgaea 3: Absence of Justice (PS3)
Valkyria Chronicles (PS3)
Eternal Sonata (360/PS3)

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Re: DL Playership Drive- Winter 2010
« Reply #70 on: February 18, 2010, 09:00:49 PM »
For VP and DQ5, I lack a DS to play it. I believe I noted that.

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Re: DL Playership Drive- Winter 2010
« Reply #71 on: February 18, 2010, 11:56:57 PM »
Quote
This can be used as many times as desired (as long as there is room in range to deploy the Room) per turn, and does not cost Revya anything aside from that Room already being deployed.

It costs money.

DjinnAndTonic

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Re: DL Playership Drive- Winter 2010
« Reply #72 on: February 19, 2010, 12:43:44 AM »
re: Soul Nomad-

Since everyone seems content to complain about the game without really discussing the matter, I suppose I should summarize some viewpoints.

Case against is in largely two points  1) the DL cast is completely alien to the in-game cast and 2) Revya is headache.

Revya is assumed to be unrankable.  The ability to summon an army makes her unsuitable for the DL setting.  Additionally, given full use of the system, she can summon overwhelming offense in the form of First Strike Rooms which she summons on her initiative turn- in other words, not realistically beatable in the DL setting.

I believe this covers everything.

We could rank her as 'No Dominance Revya'. Even with full Fusion to every NPC in the game and game-system-given Initiative, without the summoning, she's just an Average to Low Godlike PC.

At the very least, she's usable in Board Tourneys as 'No Dominance Revya'... >.>;; She's probably the most interesting cast member, and it's only the game-system-y Dominance thing that's holding her back from being a good rank. Her advantage/weakness type spread is actually fairly cool and unique too. And Demon Force is fun turn 1 low-OHKO damage. Also, ranking Revya means Gig writeups, a definitely boon to the DL.

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Re: DL Playership Drive- Winter 2010
« Reply #73 on: February 19, 2010, 02:23:39 AM »
While limiting a dueller's pool of legal games seems to have worked in the past, anything more specific is asking for problems and people flat out ignoring, or even missing, the particular distinction in play, I think.  Better to just ignore Revya entirely, especially since we are trying to limit problems and address the people who are queasy about ranking it.

Monkey- ... right!  I'd totally forgotten that part.  Which... probably says enough about how trivial said cost is.

Soppy- If you hadn't, I know I inferred as much at the least.  That said, since you haven't played any of those games I think you don't really have to worry about that for a while >.>
« Last Edit: February 19, 2010, 02:25:12 AM by Cmdr_King »
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Re: DL Playership Drive- Winter 2010
« Reply #74 on: February 19, 2010, 02:30:17 AM »
Fair point, but Aeonless Yuna is fairly easy to understand any time she comes up in Board Tourneys and the like, Squadless Revya seems equally easy to conceptualize. As much as I'd like to see her Ranked, I don't think the DL would get behind the concept, though, so this is more aimed at Board Tourneys I suppose. And if we ranked her without the Squadless qualifier, then she's clearly going to be a Bluelike to a lot of people, so that's no practical.

I just wish there was some room for allowing this kind of limitation.