<Untitled IAQ Project>: Round 4: Characters, Status, Equipment, Specials, etc

[Dark Holy Elf]

if full healing is going to be something necessary by endgame

It shouldn't be. Otherwise you're pretty much forcing the player to use one of two(?) full healers and that's ridiculous. We just need to design bosses such that they can be overcome by other means. Still... PCs could probably use a bit more scattered healing moves in general, even if we stay clear of the overpowered type (fullhealing, MT, etc.).


Also, Djinn wanted me to post this: if we're going to have "MP draining" in fact be a general resource attack, then the general idea seemed to be as folows. An MP drain may drain X% of MP, and also...
-Takes x% off the focus meter
-Has an x% chance to inflict Overheat status on characters with cooldown skills, giving them a 2(?) turn cooldown on all their moves.

This hopefully balances the moves against all types of resources and removes the need for specific passives to affect them. I'm not really a huge fan of resource-draining attacks in general mid-dungeon, but if we make them it should be noted they hit the MP users harder long-term and the other resources harder short-term, which... makes sense given the resource type. I guess charged moves aren't affected by this at all?

We need to start talking about how we're actually going to handle stats and stat growth beyond some letters which look pretty but ultimately tell us nothing besides comparatives. I have some ideas on the matter but for now I'd like other people who are interested to also start thinking about concerns such as:
-Which stats should rise with level up, and how much higher should they be at endgame than earlygame?
-Same question, for equipment.
-Just how much better is an A than a C than an F (etc.) in every given stat? Answer doesn't have to be the same for all stats, mind.

Do keep the mechanics in mind, especially for what that means for the stat spread (the third point).

[Dark Holy Elf]

Stat comparison finally up on the wiki. Note that if any character's stat changes, let me know so I can edit it (you can do it yourself if you either feel like recalculating the averages or figure out the pattern of how the average changes as you change individual stats <.<).

[Dark Holy Elf]

Okay, more mechanics ideas.

Criticals

Discussed this in chat, but the current crit formula favours light weapons to too great a degree. This makes katars possibly overpowered and greataxes lose their main niche. Proposed a new formula:

Critical hit: Damage is doubled, OR target Def is halved, whichever results in most damage.

This causes crits to still maintain their niche of cutting through high Def, but doesn't make them useless for high-atk weapons/too good for low-atk.

Stat growth

My general suggestion is that stats grow linearly from about X at Level 1 to 2X at endgame. This is roughly what is done by, say, Wild Arms XF, and I think it works really well for keeping the feeling of progress that people enjoy yet not having levels be any sort of god stat.

Just for reference, although the numbers are totally arbitrary, I'm going to suggest that 60 be the stat average for Level 1 and 120 be the stat average for endgame. Basically because I like stats to stay on a one-byte scale, and 60 has a lot of factors (math nerd reasons, yes!). This is arbitrary and if anyone actually CARES this can be changed very easily to anything. (EDIT: ended up not using this for this post, so who cares <_<)

Acc, Eva, and MEva do not grow with level, as has been discussed previously. They may grow with weapons/armour a bit. Not worried about that for now.

Equipment

In general, I would suggest that an average ATK weapon (i.e. guardian blades and spears) have ATK that is 2x as great as an armour with average DEF (i.e. medium armour, or an average enemy). This is an easy number to keep track of and allows for fairly flexible overcoming of defence by weapons.

Not sure how fast I see it growing but I don't think it matters too much yet.

How much stats mean

So yeah.

As outlined in the "goomba" example", which I am going to assume covered D/A-, A-/D, and C+/C+ stat builds, we have some general ideas of how Strength and Dex should work. A- should have double the Strength of D. This implies a pretty large spread, which is fine.

I am going to propose that C is 100%, and each rank is +/-10% from that. So G is 20% (lulz), D is 70%, A- is 150%, and S is 180%. This means that, with identical weapons and number of swings, A Strength does double the damage of D+ which does double the damage of F. Works for me. Makes low Strength pretty laughable at physicals but this is fine. Good thing Ilona has swings coming out of her ass, and Fahim never uses his Str ever, and Kasia has crossbows. Dunno about Eirwen, but I guess she was meant to be pretty bad at physicals.

Now for Dex. Same curve basically works, I think, maybe a liiittle tighter because it's more defensive as well. +/-9% works. Then A- has 145% and D has 73%... so just under double, like the example. So, assuming an average Dex weapon (guardian blade, again?), A and above swing 4 times, B and above 3, C and above 2, against an average Dex enemy. Offhand this works. Weapons will modify this, as will various other things. On the reverse end, C and below are swung twice against, D and below three times, and it gets quickly worse from there (Though do remember the first swing is 2x as good as the rest). Mostly means Erastus gets raped by many enemies, as the stats currently stand. May need to shore up some low-Dex PCs as a result, though I do really like the idea of some heavy armour people with bad Dex. Could give a lot of enemies terrible attacking Dex, too (i.e. heavy weapons, in practice). But do keep in mind Dex as a defensive stat in mind! It does things! Important things!

Now, durability. General feeling is that HP spread should be relatively small, defences twice as large since they're hit half as often. Actually, no, because healing is (or shouldn't be) percentage based, they're not that potent. Anyway, going with +/-4 for HP (A HP has 124%, F has 76%) and +/-6% for defences (so A Vit takes 26% less from physicals and F takes 46% more). Some durabilities, ignoring Dex/armour/evade (which matter a lot) here...

Aurel: 1.89 pdur, 1.74 mdur
Rafael: 1.71 pdur, 1.40 mdur
Isolde: 1.37 pdur, 1.37 mdur
Noemi: 1.00 pdur, 1.00 mdur (zomg... actually this is slightly below average)
Mirek: 0.64 pdur, 1.36 mdur
Fahim: 0.62 pdur, 1.25 mdur
Ilona: 0.49 pdur, 0.76 mdur
Meilin: 0.49 pdur, 0.74 mdur (note: probably about to be changed to a B HP/G Vit/F+ Spit which will result in 0.58, 0.78)

Works generally.

Gah, need to go to sleep, this works for now. Tomorrow will think about speed, int, and accuracy/evade. Read and respond plz.

[DjinnAndTonic]

Some more things discussed in chat:

Yiu's Coin Launcher skill was given a major nerf/rebalancing. It now has a set cap for the amount of money that can be fired at once and it deals ITD damage. This should get outclassed roughly 1 or 2 dungeons after he joins the party. At which point, the only use for the full ITD amount is against extremely high DEF enemies. And even then, it's only 60% accurate. If he misses, though, at least it inflicts the Disoriented status~ More likely, the skill is more useful as a 40% status move, by spamming 1-coin shots. At least until he gets his awesome status items.

Xun may be a bit too durable. Considering dropping his HP down half a rank.

Kasia may be a bit too good still, despite the rebalancing, consider dropping her speed half a rank.

Isolde and Aurel need their Cooldown times listed. To standardize, 1-turn Cooldown = one turn where the move cannot be used. This is how NEB noted it in Meilin and Kasia's skillsets.

Nearly all healing is currently listed as %-based. Draining skills are already based on damage (and therefore INT). So that means that only Eirwen, Meilin, Xun, Yiu, Katarine, and Erastus need to edit their percentage-listed skills to be INT-based (with a power modifier from the skill itself, obviously). Eirwen's healing was discussed as "The Initial Healing burst is INT-based, but the follow-up regen is %-based." Katarine's Biogenesis may or may not stay as a %-based skill due to her limited charges. Kasia's healing is already listed as INT-based.

Fahim's spell ranges still need to be edited to be closer-ranged to make his terrible pDurability matter and give him something of a nerf.

Support Bonuses were discussed. The decision was to allow the player to disable a PC's Support Ability from the menu if they didn't want/need the boost and just wanted to bring that PC along as a reserve member.
Support Skills need to be toned down a little, and are being reimagined as Retreat Skills. When a PC falls, they have the option of Retreating the battlefield and allowing the Support PC to switch in (and now the Retreated character cannot be revived this battle). During this, the Retreat Skill is activated, granting a fairly decent positive effect to the party/field.

Ilona could still pick up an ID move, though it might be excessive since... Current people with ID: Mirek, Yiu, Shao, Rafael, Kasia. Mirek's 100% ID requires a full Focus meter. Yiu's 100% ID is turn two at best, but comes in two flavors, both mitigated by Item resources (he's supposed to be the best ID whore in the game, too). Shao's ID isn't 100% and is turn two at best. Rafael's ID is MT, but has a <50% hitrate. Kasia's 100% ID has an extremely long chargetime, is mitigated by her physical accuracy, and is a late-gained skill (though it should probably have a Cooldown time as well).
If Ilona were to pick up an ID move, I'd envision it as something that plays off of her 'multiple hits'-themed build, and maybe have it require a Scythe (for the flavor~). "Ilona's hits X number of times, based on DEX, with a 10% chance of ID per hit. 40% Focus." As a suggestion.

Enemy Encounters: Thinking that Enemies use slightly more physicals than magical attacks. Actual phys/mag skill distribution should be about 50-50, but since all enemies will have a basic physical, it leans towards more physicals.
Thematically, even natural wildlife can use the Flow, so non-human enemies like Lantern Wolves and Disquieted Abominations can tend to have more magical attacks.
Humans, on the other hand, should tend more towards physicals. They've developed more weapons, and the people that can use Dissonance tend to be leaders/nobles. However, against Imperial Military Soldiers, the distribution should skew back towards magical since the Military goes out of its way to employ as many mages as possible.

DEX-based multiple attacks may require a 'Swing Cap'?

We're definitely giving Shao that Healing Trap. That gives us two full-healers in the whole cast (three if you count Claire's Once-per-dungeon Divine Fruit), and Shao's is turn-2 at best, plus would add the same Dissonance poisoning that Kasia's does.

I think that was everything that was discussed recently.

[074]

re: Ilona's ID move:

Backstab (20%): Adds Speed to Strength for damage and auto-crits, but only hits once regardless of Dexterity difference. Has a chance to instantly kill the target. If a knife/dagger is equipped, ignores defense and lowers target's Strength, Vitality, Dexterity, and Speed by 5%.

Tal beat you to it before it was mentioned.  


That aside, it's worth noting the following:

Rafael's ID is MT, but has a <50% hitrate.

Half-true.  That's on Code EA (Hex-target variant), not Code AE (the single-target version).  Focused variant, I'm seeing as very accurate.

Katarine's Biogenesis may or may not stay as a %-based skill due to her limited charges.

Noting that Katarine is not only running off of limited charges, but also D intelligence, is regen-type, and is pretty much carrying the healing for Team Isolde when there's nobody in the fifth slot, before you go too far with the "need INT-based healing" bit for her.

Isolde and Aurel need their Cooldown times listed. To standardize, 1-turn Cooldown = one turn where the move cannot be used. This is how NEB noted it in Meilin and Kasia's skillsets.

Fully aware of this.  I've been trying to think of Isolde's cooldown times myself, but they're pretty damn tricky to balance.

[EDIT]  Because I have nothing better to do, listing relative PC durabilities alongside DEX, EVA, and armor.

Physical:

Aurel: 1.8944, Heavy Armor, C Dex, F- Evade
Rafael: 1.716, Medium Armor, D- Dex, F- Evade
Artur: 1.5872, Heavy Armor, D Dex, D+ Evade
Isolde: 1.3688, Heavy Armor, D Dex, C Evade
Shao: 1.3216, Medium Armor, B- Dex, D Evade
Jin: 1.3216, Light Armor, D Dex, D Evade
Erastus: 1.16, Heavy Armor, F+ Dex, D Evade
Xun: 1.12, Light Armor, D- Dex, D Evade
Kasia: 1.1024, Medium Armor, D Dex, F Evade
Claire[Base]: 1.08, Medium Armor, C Dex, C Evade
Yiu: 1.06, Medium Armor, B Dex, C Evade
Faulheit: 1.0175, Light Armor, C- Dex, C Evade
Noemi: 1.00, Medium Armor, B Dex, C Evade
Eirwen: 0.68, Light Armor, B+ Dex, C Evade
Katarine: 0.6688, Light Armor, A- Dex, A- Evade
Mirek: 0.64, Light Armor, S Dex, A Evade
Fahim: 0.616, Light Armor, C Dex, G Evade
Selena: 0.608, Light Armor, D Dex, C Evade
Meilin: 0.4872, Light Armor, B Dex, B+ Evade
Ilona: 0.4864, Light Armor, S Dex, S Evade

Magical:

Aurel: 1.7408, Heavy Armor, F- Evade
Erastus: 1.71, Heavy Armor, B- Evade
Kasia: 1.4144, Medium Armor, B+ Evade
Rafael: 1.3992, Medium Armor, D+ Evade
Isolde: 1.3688, Heavy Armor, C Evade
Faulheit: 1.3632, Light Armor, F Evade
Mirek: 1.36, Light Armor, D- Evade
Fahim: 1.2496, Light Armor, A+ Evade
Shao: 1.1872, Medium Armor, D Evade
Yiu: 1.18, Medium Armor, C Evade
Jin: 1.0528, Light Armor, C Evade
Xun: 1.0528, Light Armor, F+ Evade
Noemi: 1.00, Medium Armor, C Evade
Claire[base]: 0.8208, Medium Armor, C Evade
Artur: 0.8192, Heavy Armor, F Evade
Ilona: 0.76, Light Armor, B Evade
Selena: 0.752, Light Armor, D- Evade
Katarine: 0.7216, Light Armor, A- Evade
Eirwen: 0.68, Light Armor, C Evade
Meilin: 0.6688, Light Armor, D- Evade

[Dark Holy Elf]

Dexterity

Proposing a change to it. It used to be 2 swings at 100% opponent's Dex, then 3 swings at 125%, 4 swings at 150%, 5 swings at 175%... but this method has a problem. Basically as the dex gap gets wide, extra swings start coming relatively quickly. If A is swinging against B 6 times, then as little as a 10% increase in Dex could raise this to 8. This leaves large gaps in Dex open to ridiculous swing counts which doesn't quite seem reasonable. So, new plan:

2 swings at attacking Dex >= 100% of opponent's Dex
3 swings at 125%
4 swings at 160%
5 swings at 200%
6 at 250%
7 at 320%
8 at 400%
9 at 500%
(possible swing cap here? Or something like a 10th swing that does full damage as a finisher if you hit 750% or something)

Basically this makes it so that every time you raise your Dex by 25% of its previous value, you get another swing (technically it's 28% for swings 4 and 7 but who cares, the rounder numbers are worth it). Prettty sure this will make things make more sense but I need to crunch some numbers, could be wrong.

EDIT: This idea is stupid and means light weapons have no advantage at getting extra swings beyond the base. I suck. <_< Please ignore it, I leave it here because there were posts discussing it.

Hit and Evade

Yay, easier stats!

-C corresponds to 40%, and each change from there is +/-5%, so G acc/eva is 0% (makes sense) and S is 80%. This does not increase with levels.
-Weapons add to hit. I picture the average weapon hit being about 70%. So C hit with an average weapon = 110% hit.
-Armour subtracts from evade, if medium or heavy. Heavy armour = -20% evade. Medium armour = -10% evade. Yes, the DEF boost is worth it, unless you're a dodge whore like Ilona (who wouldn't equip heavy armour even if she could!). So a PC with C evade and medium armour has 30% evade.
-Accuracy formula is the braindead easy (Hit-Evade)%. So "perfectly average" hits "perfectly average" 80% of the time. I am in favour of enemy median evade being lower, though, with some freaky outliers to reward accuracy, because too much 80% accuracy on the PC end is kinda annoying IMO. It's fine on the enemy end.
-Ilona has 70% effective evade against "average" hit, while various PCs with bad evade have 0; median is again, around 20%.

Oh yeah, and I see both weapon and armour hit/evade going up by 20% as the game goes on, such that the "ultimate" heavy armour has no evade penalty at all! Seems fitting. Oh yeah the ultimate light armour has +20%, of course.

MEvade is simpler. Average MEvade = 40% as usual. Average spell hit = 120%. MEvade should not go up as the game goes on. Don't see armour helping it at all normally, may be a few freaky exceptions akin to the Aegis Shield in many FF games but yeah.

ATK and DEF

Hoo boy. I will say right now that I am tempted to drop the effect of Vit slightly, but I said I'd do this first and take a look at how it affects things.

Okay, let's start with ATK. Arbitrary stats time sez: earlygame weapon ATK is average 40, doubles as game goes on. DEF, 20, same doubling. Here's what some weapons look like! (NOTE THESE MAY NEED TO BE REBALANCED, general idea is what matters)

Hammers: 55 ATK, 0.6 Dex Mult
Greatswords: 48 ATK, 0.8 Dex Mult
Axes/Maces: 44 ATK, 0.9 Dex Mult
Guardian Blades: 40 ATK, 1.0 Dex Mult
Light Swords: 36 ATK, 1.2 Dex Mult
Knives: 32 ATK, 1.4 Dex Mult
Gloves: 28 ATK, 1.7 Dex Mult

Bows: 45 ATK, 0 Dex Mult
Crossbows: 41 ATK, 0 Dex Mult, treat Strength as ATKx1.5
Javelins: 38 ATK, 0 Dex Mult
Throwing Knives: 32 ATK, 1.0 Dex Mult
Darts: 29 ATK, 1.2 Dex Mult

Now, defence:

Light armour: 16 DEF, 20 MDEF
Medium armour: 20 DEF, 20 MDEF, -10 EVA
Heavy armour: 28 DEF, 16 MDEF, -20 EVA

Remember that heavy armour is rare, so the average is around where medium is. Yes, heavy/medium is a large gap, heavy armour is supposed to be cool like that, since it's rare. It pays by having lower MDef. Light armour doesn't get the flipside of this benefit since it is emphasising evade (whereas heavy armour people don't really care that they are giving up evade), although I imagine the fluky highest-MDef armours might be light? That can be worked out as time dictates.

Yes, heavy armour (barely) makes gloves tink. Granted, this is PC vs. PC so it may not actually work like that, but gives you an idea.


Let me chew over what some of these numbers may mean for damage. And yeah, I still haven't dealt with Int yet. It should probably vary... less than Strength since it is quadratic, but more than most stats even so.

[VySaika]

I take it that's supposed to be 7 at 330%, not 230%? Though even if so, that leaves it as an 80% increase between 6 and 7, but then a 70% between 7 and 8, which feels a bit odd.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Whoa Gate is keeping up with this! Sweet! Anyway editted, should be 320.

[VySaika]

Yeah, I read it. I just don't contribute because when it comes to anything creative I'm the poster child for Does Not Play Well With Others. <_<

[Dark Holy Elf]

And now I'm thinking that the new dex formula is too harsh on light weapons anyway. Scratch that post, let me think about this and crunch some numbers.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Yes, can the change to dex I made above. What was I thinking? Doesn't let high-swing weapons keep up at all.

Now, taking the damage formula as is, average damage (C str, guardian blade) at earlygame is 1200. Going to divide this by 10. So 120 for the first hit. Lategame, 240. Not really much of an increase, hmm. Oh well. We can make ATK and DEF rise faster if people want to see characters improve more than this.

Here's what some PCs look like, relatively, at "endgame". I'm assuming an enemy with C dex, 10% evade against C acc, and +/-5% per acc tier compared to spears and throwing knives. I got lazy with hit after Noemi anyway. TAKE THESE WITH A GRAIN OF SALT blah blah I am making lots of assumptions, this doesn't tell the whole story, and so on. I also don't know most skill mults, and can't yet touch magic in general. Ignoring crits too, which do matter.

Number of swings is in parentheses. A + indicates the character is close to getting another, and a - indicates they're close to losing one. This MATTERS A LOT because enemy dex does vary, after all.

Noemi:
504 damage at 80 hit with a greatsword. 684 at max MP. (2-)
480 damage at 95 hit with a light sword. 780 at max MP. (4-)
432 damage at 100 hit with a knife. 792 at max MP. (5-)

Note that Noemi can more than double her damage using her cooldown skill which adds her INT to her STR. This is probably broken, especially at full MP. 1700+ damage? Yikes.

Kasia
258 damage at 90 hit. (Crossbow)
AP Shot: 381 damage for a 1/3 turn charge time (going to change this to 1/2)
96 damage at 60 hit. (whip) (1)

I'm assuming Kasia's Acc rises to an effective C (i.e. +30%) due to her Marksman skill.

Aurel
546 damage at 80 hit, hammer. (1)
468 damage at 95 hit, Shortspear. (2-)
Reckless Strike: More damage in exchange for lowered defences for one turn, cooldown. Good finisher anyway.

Shao
504 damage at 100 hit, spear. (2-)
538 damage at 110 hit, light sword. (3)
470 damage at 115 hit, gloves. (6-)

He hits elemental weaknesses whenever the hell he wants, so potentially he's very damaging. His techs probably raise his damage some, too, how much depends on where their MP cost is set.

Isolde
650 damage at 90 hit, hammer.
L1 Dissonant Edge probably raises this to about 750.

Steel Force is probably around 900+ damage. 1000+ with L3 Dissonant Edge. Blade of Calamity is probably around 1250/1350. Oversurge leads to potential insanity buuut it comes at a heavy cost. Oversurge Blade of Calamity with L3 Dissonant Edge = 3000+. Holy shit. <_<

Faulheit
323 damage at 120 hit, crossbow

Damage with other weapons isn't worth mentioning. Crossbows dominate too much with that D strength. Vacuum Shot, assuming it adds full INT, is around 700. All of this is assuming he doesn't move, he loses 20% damage without this. He also has magic.

Katarine
480 damage at 95 hit, light sword (4+)

No damaging techs. She's very fast but frail, about what you'd expect.

Ilona
223 damage at 110 hit, scythe. (2-)
269 damage at 125 hit, guardian blade. (4+)
274 damage at 130 hit, knife. (7)

Backstab damages, same weapon order (30% focus): 792, 528, 845
Flurry Rush (50% focus):
-Scythe hits 6 times: 612
-G. Blade hits 18 times: 3197
-Knife hits 17 times: 910

Enlightened State (100% focus): Can crank out ~1100 damage with the two free turns and is scary beyond that.

Guardian Blade Flurry Rush should probably be nerfed so it is either 3x Dex, OR auto-crit, but not both. This leaves its damage at 1680 or 1599 depending on which one is chosen. Anyway, I'm underselling her damage a little at higher focus levels because focus raises her Dex, but it only raises it slowly so it won't be a big deal.

Selena
216 damage at 95 hit, staff. (1)

Mage alert.

Mirek
530 damage at 125 hit, guardian blade. (1)

This increases slowly as turns go by, until a large boost at 100 focus. At this point he does 1224 damage. (spammable!) Needs Claire to get him there in a reasonable time frame. Peace is available turn 1 and does more, but at a focus cost.

Eirwen
173 damage at 100 hit, knives (5)
134 damage at 85 hit, cookware (3)

No martial training in a party of people who at least have a little! It shows. Not what she's about, naturally.

Artur
714 damage at 95 hit, hammer (1). Does some of this as HT splash damage.

His moves suggest he can do quite a bit more than this. Surprisingly bruisy and accurate (B+) for someone so tanky and not overly slow. Mildly opposed to him having 3 move (even if it can only be used for a physical) on top of this.

Rafael
259 damage at 75 hit, axe/mace. (1)

Mage alert.

Claire
360 damage at 115 hit, guardian blade. (2-)
336 damage at 90 hit, pike. (1)

Firemelon: Use a turn, then SMASH for 1440. Not much to say here, fast and charges for smash, though this needs an item. Or just fast and a bit weak but not too weak.

Yiu
432 damage at 90 hit, axe/mace. (2)
432 damage at 100 hit, knife. (5-)
336 damage at 100 hit, glove. (6)

Plus some item stuff for more but situational/rare damage. He's not the God-King's heavy hitter, but is competent and with nice options to take advantage of different enemy types.

Meilin
655 damage at 110 hit, greatsword. (2-)
390 damage at 125 hit, longbow.

Linear Sniper for ~500?, Twin Sniper is 30 focus for 780. Rapid Sniper averages around 2000 damage, but... 100 focus (see Mirek comments) and it burns it all. Swordskills are less about overt damage, but the greatsword base is certainly solid enough. Definitely a glass cannon.

Xun
264 damage at 90 hit, shortspear. (1)
238 damage at 85 hit, javelin. (1)

I'd say "mage alert" but "summoner alert" is more like it. He's weird.

Fahim
43 damage at 55 hit, staff. (1+)
Dual G's in his offensive stats! Yeah.

He'll basically never be pushed back into them due to all his YOU CAN NOT STOP ME FROM CASTING abilities he has. Damage is actually very high due to S int and being able to hit weaknesses on everything.

EDIT: They don't have skills, but they do have stats and weapons, so...

Erastus
420 damage at 90 hit, hammer. (1)

Heh, better than you'd think for a mage. Go go Erastus!

Jin
714 damage at 45 hit, hammer. (1)

Lots of damage for the big guy when he -does- connect, but he has problems with this. Just a few. <.<


So, there you go. Please don't overreact to any of this, it's all damage against a single, idealised enemy who may not exist. Physical (slash/pierce/impact) resistances, evade, dex, def... these will all change! Note also that the above comparison gives little nod to accuracy and less to crit, both of which may be significant. And speed, and skillset, and durability... lots of variables at work.

But overall, I like the look of things, and think in general the formula as proposed is workable.

Feel free to suggest changes to weapons from the ones I randomly assumed!


EDIT: Remembered that hit average is currently C+, so I am going to suggest PCs have 5 less hit than I've said so far so we don't have a super accurate party, ORRR just assume the median enemy has 25(+20 with levels) evade to accomplish what I've been saying.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Oh yeah, since I didn't say as much... assuming each point of speed is +/-5%, I'm assuming. So S is exactly 2x F. Speed is linear etc.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Assuming for now that MP grows from 200 to 400 as the game proceeds, and that each rank is worth +/-10%.

Changed Kasia to be MP-based. And more specifically,

<Elecman> Overhauled how her healing and whip skills work, nerfed AP Shot slightly, she has MP now. Buffs retain cooldown in addition to small MP costs. Healing is generally rather costly.

B MP stat since I should keep track of this. Also think Jin's stats were changed, note to self, change them. Note to self, edit Meilin's stats to A- Dex, B HP, G Vit, F+ Spi (slightly more durable but more to the point focusses on HP over defences to suit her fighting style; higher Dex because her only swingable weapon is so heavy that she needs it to swing twice against 102% average enemy Dex).

[DjinnAndTonic]

Okay, after a big discussion about trying to make the battle system organized to reflect the plot's magic system, we have shuffled a few resource-types and expanded on the explanations for everything.

Firstly, taking a look at the cast from the story perspective:

Nearly the whole cast are mages of some flavor. This is why they can survive being healed from Dissonance, which would otherwise severely hamper a normal person's immune system (or completely destroy it, depending on the amount of healing needed). Fahim's mother is a severely disabled person who was Dissonant healed despite her body being unable to take it.

The rest of the cast are Guardians, and Yiu. The Guardians are, unbeknownst to themselves, using a Perfect form of the Flow in microscale in their Focus skills, which makes them different from normal physical skills. To summarize: the relaxed, focused state is Quieting. It dulls the effects of Disquiet around them (a sort of aura) and protects them from their own. In the moment they strike, they free their emotions, using a sort of combination of Resonance and Dissonance to enhance their weapons and themselves. They are, in turn, protected by their own Quieting aura, which is then cancelled out by their own self Resonance.

Yiu is generally the only one using completely non-magical means to fight, but even he has some latent Resonance affinity to survive the magical healing, and with some help from another mage, he can utilize the Flow slightly. As a God-King Royal, this lack of Flow Talent makes him something of a black sheep, which is one reason he's trying so hard to be the prophesized hero and restore his honor.

Way back when, it was proposed that Flow Use was utilized differently depending upon which Sense a person used to access their skills. The most common type was Sight Sense, which is what Noemi uses. The other types were more rare, but all of them can be represented with the other Resource types our cast already uses.


Tying this to gameplay:

Guardian skills are special, no exceptions. This is a big plot point. Only people who use Guardian skills can utilize a Focus meter. The three Guardians are obviously using this, and Meilin from the God-King Tribe can also be a descendant of the original Guardians. The original Guardians were the actual bodyguards of the First Practicioner, who were scattered when he disappeared. They were reorganized as a part of the military when the Empire formed and needed people who could handle the small Disquieted areas (many of which were left over from the FP's time when they were formed, not from the industrial use of Dissonant Farming).

Pure physical skills are somewhat rare. Even the ones that seem purely physical may in fact have a subconscious magical component to them. Especially if the user is a Touch mage. They sense the Flow directly on their skin and manipulate it without needing to think, so they may in fact not even realize they are doing it. Conversely, someone like Isolde, who is a trained Military Tactile Mage, is clearly using it consciously... and far more powerful than most. Known people who are using flow-enhanced physicals are Isolde, Aurel, Kasia, and Shao (and Noemi after being trained by Isolde). Artur may also be using the Flow, but he may just as likely be using his pure strength. All of these PCs can use Cooldowns to some degree.

Sight magic is the most common form of Sensing the Flow. Most Dissonant mages are trained to use this, and some Resonant mages tend towards this as well. Noemi, Fahim, Faulheit, and Selena are pure Sight mages. Erastus, Kasia, Meilin, and possibly Rafael use Sight magic in addition other senses.

Sound magic is fairly uncommon and manifests by using Songs to cast magic without draining one's own energies. Erastus and Jin use this.

Taste magic is fairly common, but hard to utilize offensively. It generally requires imbuing food Items with Flow energy. Eirwen and Claire use this.

Mind magic is a difficult form of using the Flow because the user does not Sense it directly with one of their five senses, but must intuit how to use it through study, experience, or empathy. Often, using a spell once does not imply that a user can do it again without mental preparation, similar to D&D Wizards who study their spellscrolls. This manifests as spell 'Charges' that are ripped from the user's mind once used. Katarine and Shao are dedicated military students of this art. Xun is a more empathic student, and needs time to commune and train his pets to summon them and link to their minds with this art. Rafael utilizes this type of magic, but has learned a method to keep the spells within his mind at an intense physical cost to his health due to the accumulation of Disquiet this powerful kind of Flow Use creates. This suits his research just fine as he is searching for a method to change the biological structure of humans to withstand the Disquiet and adapt to it.

tl;dr:
Guardian Skills (Quieting/Physical/Perfect Flow Hybrid): Focus (Mirek, Ilona, Claire, Meilin
Pure Physical and Flow/Physical Hybrid Skills aka Touch magic (Dissonance/Resonance/Non-typed): Cooldowns (Isolde, Aurel, Kasia, Shao, Artur, *Meilin, **Noemi)
Pure Flow Abilities: Everything Else *
*Sight Magic (Dissonance/Resonance): Standard MP (Noemi, Erastus, Kasia, Fahim, Faulheit, Selena, Eirwen, Artur)
*Sound Magic (Resonance only): Songs (Erastus, Jin)
*Taste Magic (Resonance only): Food Items (Eirwen, Claire)
*Mind Magic (Dissonance only): Charges (Erastus, Shao, Katarine, Xun&Pets)
**Mind Magic-Unique (Disquiet-type): HP consumption (Rafael)
Unique style (Tools?): Item-use (Yiu, note that some items have magical properties imbued into them, including a pure Quieting-type skill that Noemi derives)

*Meilin's Touch Magic is precisely that. Her Healing spells require her to be able to touch a target. (Melee range)
*Noemi learns to use some basic Cooldown skills from Isolde.

The reasoning behind this is to make the gameplay reflect the gameworld, so there are a few changes to the original designs. Notably: Kasia picked up MP in addition to Cooldowns; Artur and Shao became Cooldown-users; Shao and Xun&Pets became Charge-users

[DjinnAndTonic]

Jin thoughts:
Suggestion: Status Resistance Song - Provides 50% Status Resistance to all allies in hexes Jin, increase by 25% for each turn used.

Depending on how much status immunity we put on the accessories... having a status resistance chance is pretty damn useful... especially since I forsee our group giving enemies status like crazy. And not being particularly lenient with full status-blocking

Oh, do note that we don't have a dedicated debuffer (although, Eirwen might be able to work as such). Plenty of status-slingers, and a few people have debuffs scattered in their skillsets, but no one who really specializes in it

And it seems like this niche would suit Songs really well.

Suggestion: Call the Speed song "Temporal Tempo"~

Songs can perhaps boost stats for allies and lower them for enemies at the same time. Doesn't make a ton of sense, but they are magical songs, after all.

If we had Tales of style skits, I can see this happening:
Fahim: "How does he do that? Why do his songs hurt the enemy, but they help us?"
Xun: "He says he uses the Flow to make the music sound horrible to our enemies' ears."
Fahim: "So does that mean he doesn't actually know how to sing, he just makes it sound like he does to /our/ ears?"
Xun: "I have wondered about that for ages. We may never find out."



Story thoughts on Artur:
I was thinking that his fight and departure from the party can be less of a Kasia-level 'betrayal' and more just a personal grudge against Mirek due to concerns over Eirwen. More specifically, I imagine that Eirwen gets hurt at some point, Artur blames Mirek (who is probably already blaming himself anyway, but...) and he basically loses it at Mirek and all the jealous feelings come pouring out and his only coping mechanism is to attack Mirek. It also helps make the concept of Artur being redeemable a bit easier.

Artur is 21 to Mirek's 23. I can see a large maturity gap there. Especially considering Mirek's relatively harsher past.

Gameplay Suggestion for Artur: keep him basically as is, drop him to 1 move, let him double (or even triple?) move at the cost of an action (passive, or an active like "Barrelling Charge" or something). Because damnit we need more 1 move fighters. 3 move heavy armour is silly regardless.


Personality notes on Claire:
When Magic first conceived the idea, she was rather quiet, and very shy. A weakness for sweets, especially the sweeter fruits, though.

Imagine Eirwen dragging Claire everywhere for shopping for different things, with Eirwen getting excited about having someone to play dress-up with and Claire having an expression on her face that just screams "HEEEEEEEEEEEELP!"

Claire could be part of Mirek's recovery. Since he's training her, having someone depend on him seems like a really good way to build his confidence back up.

The entire group seems vaguely dependent on each other. Its actually kinda funny. Mirek's group really plays up elements of how people develop in relation to each other and focuses on ideas of the importance of interaction and human connections. Compared to standard "Friendship is power" type tropes, this is a group that REALLY needs each other. Even Artur.

"Codependency is power" - the new trope


NEB and Xun collide:
[2010-03-21 15:26:24] <Djinn> Okay, make you a deal. I'll go read it and give you my thoughts if you can come up with a good animal to be Xun's Tankaphant or Armorpede
[2010-03-21 15:26:47] <Elecman> Deal is only on if I can make a legendary hippo.
[2010-03-21 15:27:40] <Djinn> Actually... that fits an ocean planet surprisingly well
[2010-03-21 15:27:49] <Elecman> Indeed.
[2010-03-21 15:27:55] <Elecman> Tropical too

[2010-03-21 15:29:20] <MishaArsellecLune> NEB just wants PC Hippopressor.
[2010-03-21 15:29:29] <Elecman> and?


Also, I tagged every skill in the game (except Erastus's at the moment) with Dissonance, Resonance, Quieting, Disquiet, Unified Flow type (Guardian skills). If it isn't labeled with one of those 5 things, it's non-typed/physical! This means that Silence is pretty damn brutal since it shuts down basically everything. Which... considering that most Silence skills are Quieting-type abilities, is pretty fitting.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Something I just realised: the damage numbers based on the assumptions I have made so far are actually wrong, I was forgetting to divide by vitality (more specifically, I was "assuming" it increased from 1 to 2 as the game goes on). <___< Granted, we could still get those exact numbers by replacing the "divide by 10" in the damage formula with "multiply by 6". I kinda think multiplying by 6 is inelegant and there's really no need to be married to the above numbers, and most importantly, the numbers are relatively correct, which is what matters. (i.e. if Mirek is said to do 3x the damage of Eirwen, that will hold regardless of the error I made or constants we assume).

So anyway, before I worry about fixing this, I think this is a good time to pose some questions:


1. Should vitality and spirit grow more slowly than other stats?

Basically, assuming they grow at the same speed, then they effectively cancel each other out, meaning that, if she equips the same weapon at all points, that Level 5 Isolde attacking Level 5 Yiu does exactly the same damage as Level 55 Isolde attacking Level 55 Yiu. To be clear, Isolde is stronger at higher levels, but the benefit to her damage is entirely cancelled out by the fact that Yiu is more durable by an equal proportion.

Is this okay with people? If not, one solution is to grow Vit/Spi at a slower clip... say increasing to only 1.33x at endgame instead of 2x. This would result in a 50% gain in damage over the course of the game against an equal-levelled target, before equipment.

My vote is probably for the former (so the Isolde/Yiu example a paragraph up) but this is really ultimately cosmetic/thematic and I am fine if people feel differently.


2. Rate of growth of damage in general. Currently the assumption is that damage (after factoring in increasing Def/MDef and Vit/Spi) increases by a final factor of 2x over the course of the game. We can raise this if we wish to have an increased feeling of progression. This can be accomplished either by the slowing of Vit/Spi growth described above, OR by having equipment improve more rapidly, OR by a combination of both. Do note that whatever final increase in damage we decide on will necessitate a similar increase in HP, which would then mean HP grows faster than other stats. Not sure how much this is worth caring about.

Again, my vote is for the status quo of a 2x increase in damage, but again this is one I can see varying on.

[DjinnAndTonic]

Ugh, cleaning this up took ages.

Anyway, Erastus wiki page is up. http://www.rpgdl.com/wiki/index.php?title=Untitled_IAQ_Project_Characters_Erastus

Please check it out and comment.

[DjinnAndTonic]

Listing the name of every mexican food that comes to mind.

Will try to match them to Eirwen's skillset soon. Any names that you absolutely hate, please speak now.

Arroz amarillo
Camote
Guacamole
Jicama
Pico de Gallo
Queso de Cuajo
Salsa
Burrito
Carne Asada
Chalupa
Empanadas
Enchilada
Menudo
Nachos
Picadillo
Quesadilla
Rajas con Crema
Taco
Tamale
Tortilla
Tostada
Tequila
Churros
Flan
Dulce de leche
Platano

[074]

I would like to point out that, at least as far as those go, that a number of those are condiments/toppings/sides.  (Guacamole, Pico de Gallo, Salsa), and that tortillas are more often used as a component than an actual food item.

[Talaysen]

1. Should vitality and spirit grow more slowly than other stats?

Basically, assuming they grow at the same speed, then they effectively cancel each other out, meaning that, if she equips the same weapon at all points, that Level 5 Isolde attacking Level 5 Yiu does exactly the same damage as Level 55 Isolde attacking Level 55 Yiu. To be clear, Isolde is stronger at higher levels, but the benefit to her damage is entirely cancelled out by the fact that Yiu is more durable by an equal proportion.

Is this okay with people? If not, one solution is to grow Vit/Spi at a slower clip... say increasing to only 1.33x at endgame instead of 2x. This would result in a 50% gain in damage over the course of the game against an equal-levelled target, before equipment.

My vote is probably for the former (so the Isolde/Yiu example a paragraph up) but this is really ultimately cosmetic/thematic and I am fine if people feel differently.

Don't really have a problem with it as is.  Kind of prefer the same growth for all stats.  And I kind of doubt our PCs are going to be attacking each other much anyway.  Better comparison is against enemies who won't be "levelling up".

2. Rate of growth of damage in general. Currently the assumption is that damage (after factoring in increasing Def/MDef and Vit/Spi) increases by a final factor of 2x over the course of the game. We can raise this if we wish to have an increased feeling of progression. This can be accomplished either by the slowing of Vit/Spi growth described above, OR by having equipment improve more rapidly, OR by a combination of both. Do note that whatever final increase in damage we decide on will necessitate a similar increase in HP, which would then mean HP grows faster than other stats. Not sure how much this is worth caring about.

Again, my vote is for the status quo of a 2x increase in damage, but again this is one I can see varying on.

2x seems fine with me, assuming we keep the 2x growths for all other stats.  Will note that if we wanted a higher damage boost, all we have to do is make enemy vitality increase slower.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Okay, formalising some numbers and battle mechanics. First of all, yes, magical damage is still absent. There's a reason for this besides my laziness (really!). Since relatively fewer characters use magical attacks I intend to balance the formula (specifically the K constant, below) around them, their Int stats, and the range of spell powers they have. Remember that the magic damage formula will be:

(Spell Power + Int * K - MDef) * Int / Spi


Stats

Level 50 is the assumed endgame level, Level 0 is the assumed base level. The stat growth formula is

Stat = Base stat * (Level + 50) / 50

If you all hate Level 0 with a passion because LEVELS MUST START AT 1 then change the first 50 in the above formula to a 49, and levels will go from 1 to 51 and accomplish the same thing.

This formula applies to HP, MP (except for Erastus) and the core stats: Str, Dex, Vit, Int, Spi, and Spd.

For the notes below, "average" indicates the value of a stat that is rank C, whether or not this is the actual statistical average.
-Base stats for all of the above EXCEPT HP and MP average 60 (meaning 120 at endgame).
-Base HP averages 800 (-> 1600)
-Base MP averages 200 (-> 400)
-Accuracy, Evade, and MEvade do not grow with levels. All three average 40 before equipment. Unlike the "core stats" they are regularly modified by equipment, however.

Base stats vary by the following amount per rank difference (i.e. from C- to C to C+ to B-, etc.), again assuming C as the average:

HP: 30 (3.75%)
MP: 20 (10%)
Str: 6 (10%)
Dex: 5.4 (9%), rounded to the nearest integer
Vit: 3 (5%)
Int: 4.8 (8%), rounded to the nearest integer
Spi: 3 (5%)
Spd: 3 (5%)

Acc: 5% raw (i.e. C+ is 45, B is 55, S is 80, etc.)
Eva: 5% raw
MEva: 5% raw


Equipment

The core equipment stats (Atk, Def, and MDef) also roughly double in potency from earlygame to endgame. Unlike with personal stats this is not the result of a formula but instead is an approximation to the precise stats on pieces of equipment scattered throughout the game.

All weapons possess an Atk stat, while all armours possess Def and MDef stats (though in rare cases these may be 0). Def and MDef, like core stats, initially average 60 and rise to 120. Atk stats are twice as high, averaging 120 and rising to 240. IF IT WERE DESIRED, we could cut Atk stats in half so that they are on the same scale as Def/MDef and core stats, but this would necessitate a "x2" beside ATK in the damage formula which is otherwise needless.

Specific stats for equipment have been posted earlier, though they are only approximations. All of these stats are now TRIPLE what I originally listed. This means that weapon Atk typically ranges from 84->168 (gloves) to 165->330 (hammers), while armour defences typically range from 48->96 (light armour Def, heavy armour MDef) to 84->168 (heavy armour Def).

Weapons also add directly onto Hit, while armours add directly on OR subtract directly from Evade. Average weapon Hit is 70 earlygame, 90 lategame. Average armour evade rises as the game progresses as follows:

Light armour: No bonus -> +20
Medium armour: -10 -> +10
Heavy armour: -20 -> no penalty

Average enemy Evade rises from 25 to 45, meaning that C accuracy wielding an average Hit weapon strikes an average enemy 85% of the time. Note that the actual statistical average accuracy is around a C+, so this true average hits around 90% of the time. Naturally, enemy evade will vary widely, however.


Speed

Speed: Is linear, meaning that 200 speed gets twice as many turns as 100 speed. Like many CTB-like systems, the game uses a clocktick system for determining turn order.

At the start of a battle, every combatant has the number of clockticks until his or her next turn determined by

TurnCounter = 10000 / Spd * rechargeMod

At battle's start, rechargeMod is typically 1 (although for Mirek, it is 0). Every clocktick, TurnCounter is decreased by 1 (normally). On a clocktick in which a PC's TurnCounter becomes 0 or negative, they get a turn. At the conclusion of this turn, the above formula is called again, and the result is added to their current TurnCounter. Actions with fast recharge times will have RechargeMods that are below 1, while slower actions (if any exist) will have RechargeMods above 1.

Defending has a flexible RechargeMod but is always at least 0.5.
Weapon switching has a RechargeMod of 0.5.
Charged moves have RechargeMods as listed in their descriptions, and the PC gains a "charging" status when one is selected. On the PC's next "turn", they do not get a choice of action, but instead their charged move resolves. Then, the TurnCounter formula is called anew with a RechargeMod of 1. (Yes, this means the use of charged moves delay a character's next true turn.)

TurnCounters of all PCs are displayed visually on a vertical graphic which, at battle's start, is scaled such that all PCs and enemies will always (normally) be visible on it, i.e. it allows for TurnCounters which are anywhere from 0 to 10000 / (slowest PC or enemy's Spd), plus some extra (50%? More?) to be safe. Thus, in battle, all combatants can be seen marching up the gauge at equal speeds, getting their turn when reaching the top, with slower (or slower recharging) characters dropping down further than the fast after each get their turns. Attacks with varying charge and recharge times will have their effect on the PC's next turn shown visually as the player chooses the commands, in a fashion similar to Final Fantasy X or the Shadow Hearts sequels.

(Note that 10000 is a totally arbitrary constant which only matters for coding purposes and affects nothing the player can easily detect.)


Formulas

Accuracy = (Hit - Eva)%

For physical attacks, Hit uses the Accuracy stat (base Acc modified by weapon in the case of PCs). For magical attacks, Hit is simply a number taken directly from the magical attack used. Physical techniques can also have accuracy modifiers, which may be positive or negative, but this is not the norm.

For attacks with multiple swings or which target multiple targets, each individual swing and target gets its own hit check. The same applies to critical checks, below.

Physical damage = FS * (Atk - Def) * Strength / Vitality

FS stands for "first swing". The first swing of an attack (including the only swing if only one is made) has FS=2; all swings beyond the first have FS=1 (note: Ilona has a passive which changes this).

The damage formula is thus refreshingly simple. For all swings beyond the first, if the attacker and defender have equal Str/Vit, then damage is literally just Atk - Def (with the first swing being double this). Strength/Vitality gaps multiply this damage in the appopriate direction.

Swing count

Only applies to physical attacks. Compare the attacking Dexterity (Dex multiplied by the DexMod of the equipped weapon) to the Dex of the target enemy. If a physical attack targets multiple enemies at the same time, then the highest target Dex is used.

If attacking Dex is lower than defending Dex, then only 1 swing is made.

If attacking Dex >= 100% of defending Dex, then 2 swings are made
If attacking Dex >= 125% of defending Dex, then 3 swings are made
... 150% -> 4 swings
... 175% -> 5 swings
... 200% -> 6 swings

... and so on. More formally,

Swing count = (Attacking Dex * 4) / Defending Dex - 2  (rounded down, minimum of 1)

If all attacks hit and do not crit, total damage is then: (Swing count + 1) * (Atk - Def) * Strength / Vitality

Critical hits

A critical hit does either:
Final damage = old final damage * 2
or
Calculate attack with target's Def replaced by (old target's Def / 2)
whichever results in HIGHER damage. Which version to will do more damage can be predicted by checking whether Atk is over or under Def*3/2.

Critical rate is based entirely on a combination of weapon and modifications due to passive and active skills.


--

Think that does it for now! tl;dr version: not much new, just formalised things for people to refer to, need to copy this to the wiki. Only notable changes were a slight weakening of the of durability stats' spreads (though not by much) out of respect for the fact that their effects stack with armour multiplicatively, and a triple of all Atk/Def/MDef stats from what I previously posted in order to make the damage formula cleaner. Also the first formal writeup of how our speed system works, though for the casual reader all you need to know is that it is linear (like, say, FFT).

On a side note, part of me wants to start giving a lot more moves RechargeMods.

[AndrewRogue]

Since I keep forgetting to suggest that, I'd like to bring up the idea of a morale system of some sort. Something vaguely like a more notable support system in that, when PCs are occupying hexes with other PCs and conditions are met, there's a chance they'll get some sort of bonus for the remainder of the battle at the start of their turn (preceded by some short audio clip dialogue). I've always wanted a battle system where PCs are more responsive to who is involved in the battle and what's going on, so I think the idea has some merit, but wanted to see what people would think.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Seems potentially workable. You mentioned cutscenes, if these "morale bonuses" can activate more than once (or some small finite number) per game, how do you avoid them being repetitive? Or is that just not an issue? Depends on the content of them I suppose.

My only issue with the idea is I think we are erring on the side of having too many reasons for allies to band together in a hex in general. Of course, the solution to this is to give lots of enemies HT (more than the PCs have) and I suppose this is reasonable enough.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

A distinct solution could also apply the bonus only to adjacent hexes rather than within the same hex.

[DjinnAndTonic]

Okay, formalising some numbers and battle mechanics. First of all, yes, magical damage is still absent. There's a reason for this besides my laziness (really!). Since relatively fewer characters use magical attacks I intend to balance the formula (specifically the K constant, below) around them, their Int stats, and the range of spell powers they have. Remember that the magic damage formula will be:

(Spell Power + Int * K - MDef) * Int / Spi

I'd like to see a new physical damage spread against average so we can start balancing Spell Powers for how much damage they deal in comparison to physicals.

Also, just from a cursory glance, there's a lot of spells that are going to need to work off of slightly different formulas?

And in the absence of armor for enemies, I'm guessing we're just assigning MDEF (and ATK/DEF) values to the enemy itself? Or does each enemy get weapons/armor, too?

Stats

Level 50 is the assumed endgame level, Level 0 is the assumed base level. The stat growth formula is

Stat = Base stat * (Level + 50) / 50

If you all hate Level 0 with a passion because LEVELS MUST START AT 1 then change the first 50 in the above formula to a 49, and levels will go from 1 to 51 and accomplish the same thing.[/quote]

Personally, I kind of like the concept of Level 0. This seems to work for the most part. Though I thought we might have varying stat growth at different parts in the game? Like a PC that grows slowly from level 0 to 30, but then jumps up in power from 31 to 50? If this is too difficult to balance though, there's other methods of doing this with armor/weapons/skill power-ups.

-Base stats for all of the above EXCEPT HP and MP average 60 (meaning 120 at endgame).
-Base HP averages 800 (-> 1600)
-Base MP averages 200 (-> 400)
-Accuracy, Evade, and MEvade do not grow with levels. All three average 40 before equipment. Unlike the "core stats" they are regularly modified by equipment, however.

Ah, so we can definitely have some weapons/armors that increase base STR or SPD, for example? I'm assuming that these boosts would figure into skills that are directly affected by STR/SPD, etc.

Base stats vary by the following amount per rank difference (i.e. from C- to C to C+ to B-, etc.), again assuming C as the average:

HP: 30 (3.75%)
MP: 20 (10%)
Str: 6 (10%)
Dex: 5.4 (9%), rounded to the nearest integer
Vit: 3 (5%)
Int: 4.8 (8%), rounded to the nearest integer
Spi: 3 (5%)
Spd: 3 (5%)

Acc: 5% raw (i.e. C+ is 45, B is 55, S is 80, etc.)
Eva: 5% raw
MEva: 5% raw

HP ranks don't vary much at all, do they? Is that really how we want to play it? Especially considering that most PCs will be the same level for most of the game due to Suikocurving.

Equipment

The core equipment stats (Atk, Def, and MDef) also roughly double in potency from earlygame to endgame. Unlike with personal stats this is not the result of a formula but instead is an approximation to the precise stats on pieces of equipment scattered throughout the game.

All weapons possess an Atk stat,

Don't all weapons have DEX modifiers too?

while all armours possess Def and MDef stats (though in rare cases these may be 0). Def and MDef, like core stats, initially average 60 and rise to 120. Atk stats are twice as high, averaging 120 and rising to 240. IF IT WERE DESIRED, we could cut Atk stats in half so that they are on the same scale as Def/MDef and core stats, but this would necessitate a "x2" beside ATK in the damage formula which is otherwise needless.

I agree, it's pretty needless to force ATK and DEF (and SpellPower+INT/MDEF) to work on the same scales. Since we're making all the formulas and stats 100% visible, there's just no need.

Specific stats for equipment have been posted earlier, though they are only approximations. All of these stats are now TRIPLE what I originally listed. This means that weapon Atk typically ranges from 84->168 (gloves) to 165->330 (hammers), while armour defences typically range from 48->96 (light armour Def, heavy armour MDef) to 84->168 (heavy armour Def).

I'm just guessing that Light Armor MDef is about 84->168 too?

Weapons also add directly onto Hit, while armours add directly on OR subtract directly from Evade. Average weapon Hit is 70 earlygame, 90 lategame. Average armour evade rises as the game progresses as follows:

Light armour: No bonus -> +20
Medium armour: -10 -> +10
Heavy armour: -20 -> no penalty

Average enemy Evade rises from 25 to 45, meaning that C accuracy wielding an average Hit weapon strikes an average enemy 85% of the time. Note that the actual statistical average accuracy is around a C+, so this true average hits around 90% of the time. Naturally, enemy evade will vary widely, however.

I'm 100% behind these numbers here. Simple, but it feels right.

Speed

Speed: Is linear, meaning that 200 speed gets twice as many turns as 100 speed. Like many CTB-like systems, the game uses a clocktick system for determining turn order.

Is our Speed spread such that any of our PCs will double any of the other PCs?

At the start of a battle, every combatant has the number of clockticks until his or her next turn determined by

TurnCounter = 10000 / Spd * rechargeMod

At battle's start, rechargeMod is typically 1 (although for Mirek, it is 0). Every clocktick, TurnCounter is decreased by 1 (normally). On a clocktick in which a PC's TurnCounter becomes 0 or negative, they get a turn. At the conclusion of this turn, the above formula is called again, and the result is added to their current TurnCounter. Actions with fast recharge times will have RechargeMods that are below 1, while slower actions (if any exist) will have RechargeMods above 1.[/quote]

I'm pretty certain that slower actions must exist. I was under the impression that all of our skills added slight recharges to make them different from Physicals. So... translated into numbers, I would imagine that:

Most Melee Physicals = 1 RechargeMod
Some Ranged Physicals = 1.1 RechargeMod
Most Physicals Skills = 1.2 RechargeMod
Most Magical Skills = 1.3 RechargeMod
'Speedy' Physicals = 0.8~0.9?
'Speedy' Skills = 0.5~0.9?

Defending has a flexible RechargeMod but is always at least 0.5.
Weapon switching has a RechargeMod of 0.5.
Charged moves have RechargeMods as listed in their descriptions, and the PC gains a "charging" status when one is selected. On the PC's next "turn", they do not get a choice of action, but instead their charged move resolves. Then, the TurnCounter formula is called anew with a RechargeMod of 1. (Yes, this means the use of charged moves delay a character's next true turn.)

Okay, I thought we actually did away with this mechanic? Especially since we have movement. I thought that once a PC got a Turn, their actions resolved immediately (there might be a few exceptions like Kasia's bowskills?). 'Recharge'Mod implies that their -next- Turn is delayed, not their current Turn. At least, that's how I was reading it up until just now.

TurnCounters of all PCs are displayed visually on a vertical graphic which, at battle's start, is scaled such that all PCs and enemies will always (normally) be visible on it, i.e. it allows for TurnCounters which are anywhere from 0 to 10000 / (slowest PC or enemy's Spd), plus some extra (50%? More?) to be safe. Thus, in battle, all combatants can be seen marching up the gauge at equal speeds, getting their turn when reaching the top, with slower (or slower recharging) characters dropping down further than the fast after each get their turns. Attacks with varying charge and recharge times will have their effect on the PC's next turn shown visually as the player chooses the commands, in a fashion similar to Final Fantasy X or the Shadow Hearts sequels.

Just in the interest of keeping the battles speedy, I propose that Clockticks are not -actually- counted in real time. We use the bar to show just how far apart turns occur in, and the Clockticks still affect how long Statuses and such last... but instead of counting down Clockticks in seconds (or fractions of seconds) and watching the turn icons slowly move up the bar, I propose we allow 'empty' sections of the TurnBar from the 'resolve section' to 'next PC/enemy action icon' to flash red, dissappear, and immediately allow the next unit to perform its actions. This is similar to the Mana Khemia system where blank TurnCards are shuffled out immediately instead of slowly counting them down in real time second fractions. The Clockticks should still be preserved mathematically, but they shouldn't force the player to wait around for an actual internal Clock to tick them off.

Formulas

Accuracy = (Hit - Eva)%

For physical attacks, Hit uses the Accuracy stat (base Acc modified by weapon in the case of PCs). For magical attacks, Hit is simply a number taken directly from the magical attack used. Physical techniques can also have accuracy modifiers, which may be positive or negative, but this is not the norm.

For attacks with multiple swings or which target multiple targets, each individual swing and target gets its own hit check. The same applies to critical checks, below.

So, for low-accuracy types, having multiple swings is better, since they'll have more chances to deal at least -some- damage, as opposed to single-swing weapons, where they are more likely to deal 0 damage to a target. At least, that's what I'm seeing. It's fairly balanced by the fact that if a single-swing weapon -does- connect, they'll do their full damage potential.

Physical damage = FS * (Atk - Def) * Strength / Vitality

FS stands for "first swing". The first swing of an attack (including the only swing if only one is made) has FS=2; all swings beyond the first have FS=1 (note: Ilona has a passive which changes this).

The damage formula is thus refreshingly simple. For all swings beyond the first, if the attacker and defender have equal Str/Vit, then damage is literally just Atk - Def (with the first swing being double this). Strength/Vitality gaps multiply this damage in the appopriate direction.

Where does Elemental resistance/weakness come into play? For both magical elements (Fire, Ice, etc.) and Physical elements (Slash, Pierce, Blunt). And possibly magical typing (Resonance, Dissonance, Quieting, Guardian-type, Disquiet) might become a factor? I realize that this is the formula for physical damage, but we have a few physical-type skills with Elements attached and Flow-Typing listed that seem to use the Physical formula.

Swing count

Only applies to physical attacks. Compare the attacking Dexterity (Dex multiplied by the DexMod of the equipped weapon) to the Dex of the target enemy. If a physical attack targets multiple enemies at the same time, then the highest target Dex is used.

DexMod is a multiplier? I was thinking it would be additive.

If attacking Dex is lower than defending Dex, then only 1 swing is made.

If attacking Dex >= 100% of defending Dex, then 2 swings are made
If attacking Dex >= 125% of defending Dex, then 3 swings are made
... 150% -> 4 swings
... 175% -> 5 swings
... 200% -> 6 swings

... and so on. More formally,

Swing count = (Attacking Dex * 4) / Defending Dex - 2  (rounded down, minimum of 1)

If all attacks hit and do not crit, total damage is then: (Swing count + 1) * (Atk - Def) * Strength / Vitality

Looks good.

Critical hits

A critical hit does either:
Final damage = old final damage * 2
or
Calculate attack with target's Def replaced by (old target's Def / 2)
whichever results in HIGHER damage. Which version to will do more damage can be predicted by checking whether Atk is over or under Def*3/2.

Critical rate is based entirely on a combination of weapon and modifications due to passive and active skills.

Interesting idea. I like it.

Think that does it for now! tl;dr version: not much new, just formalised things for people to refer to, need to copy this to the wiki. Only notable changes were a slight weakening of the of durability stats' spreads (though not by much) out of respect for the fact that their effects stack with armour multiplicatively, and a triple of all Atk/Def/MDef stats from what I previously posted in order to make the damage formula cleaner. Also the first formal writeup of how our speed system works, though for the casual reader all you need to know is that it is linear (like, say, FFT).

On a side note, part of me wants to start giving a lot more moves RechargeMods.

Mostly approve, I listed my questions throughout. RechargeMods in particular I'm kind of leery of, depending on how you're defining them. It sounds more like you're pushing for more skills to have ChargeMods, like Kasia's bowskills, which seems odd, since I'm really not sure how Charging is going to work in a system that has movement. It sounds like a skill with a ChargeMod would have to allow a unit to Move twice. Once on their initial choosing phase (since that's when everyone chooses their Movement due to it resolving immediately), and then once again when after they've chosen their Charging move and delayed their turn slightly, their turn 'comes up again'. And if their target has moved between 'initial choosing turn' and 'after the charging phase turn', then they might have to readjust things.

I think it works fine with Kasia's bowskills because they can hit everywhere on the field and don't require Kasia to move~

RE: ANDREWROGUE

Like... Fire Emblem supports? I'm not sure I like the idea, oddly enough. I think I'd prefer Double/Triple/Quadruple Techs a la Chrono Trigger (or WA4) than the FE system. Though, I can definitely see ways to make it a unique mechanic from FE, so maybe? I really can't think of what kind of effects it would grant or what kind of conditions would need to be met. Perhaps if you give a few examples, I can get behind the idea. But as of now, it doesn't sound particularly appealing to me.