Is it just me, or does FFXIII sound...kinda bad

[DjinnAndTonic]

Hmm... this -does- make me wonder how you could interpret 'Chains' in the DL. Since Chain is dependent upon an enemy's chain limit value.

I suppose you could take the average chain limit value of all the endgame randoms and use that as the baseline value needed to activate chain mode.

Alternately, since it's a defensive weakness of FF13 enemies more than an offensive property of FF13 PCs... you could just throw it out. I'm not sure how Tallychu is doing it.

[PKNintendo]

Chaining is a big part of the game I disagree with the notion of throwing it out. EVERYONE can be chained, be it fellow L'cie (Cid) final boss etc.

I say we opt with the average chain limit.

[Talaysen]

Average chain resistance (80%) and stagger point (240%) is what I was using.

[Dhyerwolf]

Is chaining even relevant 1 on 1? I'm not at endgame yet, but there's absolutely no way that a single character can stagger any enemy by him or herself since Ravagers need another class to maintain chain durations.

[Talaysen]

Chaining is because it increases damage.  Stagger, not so much.  And a few people get both Commando and Ravager in their main roleset (Lightning, Sazh, and Snow).

[Rozalia]

Is chaining even relevant 1 on 1? I'm not at endgame yet, but there's absolutely no way that a single character can stagger any enemy by him or herself since Ravagers need another class to maintain chain durations.

Lightning can but I'm not sure on the rest but Sazh and Snow should also be able to also. If you allow summons (Which I do) then it stops being an issue full stop of course.

[PKNintendo]

Your kidding right?

Sazh is the BEST chain builder in the entire GAME.

His other unique weapon is Antares Deluxe. Antares Deluxe increases Sazh's
chain bonus. Using his unique ability, Cold Blood, Sazh can rapidly stagger as
the leader or in a support role.

Lightning is also pretty decent with Army of one but aside from those 2 I don't think the cast can build up chaining that well.


PS: It was on the last page but will this site ever feature FFXIII characters?

[Rozalia]

Lightning is also pretty decent with Army of one but aside from those 2 I don't think the cast can build up chaining that well.

Snow has both Commando and Ravager so I don't see why he can't. He'd just most likely be dead before he can pull it off.

PS: It was on the last page but will this site ever feature FFXIII characters?

Has any PS3/360 game been ranked yet? That needs to change I think and FFXIII sold shedloads so sales won't be an issue. What might be a problem is the shift system as after the shift you start with a full bar half the time.

[Taishyr]

major problem with ranking is writers, which FFXIII definitely does not have enough of yet

I'm not as stringent on no. of writers as super is (mainly depends on -which- writers have played it) but yeah FFXIII is definitely not in the running just yet. There might be a XBox 360/PS3 game up in the future, but right now most of them are too low on staff members here to support. Would be nice to have otherwise, but that's not the case!

[PKNintendo]

I don't suppose I can WRITE for FFXIII.


(probably not) but I'm always here to provide opinion, facts and stats. (I also have the strategy guide)

[dude789]

It definately has rankable and unique duellers though which is a plus. It will be interesting to see how they translate.

[DjinnAndTonic]

I figure that FF13 will get at least be considered as a ranking idea. There's not many interp problems and Tal's already making a stat topic, so it certianly translates well enough. We're really just waiting on playership. More internally than externally.

[Talaysen]

Army of One and Cold Blood have a chain rating of 0 unless the target is staggered, so they are worthless for getting an enemy to the stagger point.  Once the enemy is staggered, they increase chain by quite a bit, but at that point Commando spam is probably more efficient in a duel anyway.

[PKNintendo]

What do you mean? Can't you just build up stagger with ravager moves, stabilize it with a commando attack and use Army of one/Cold blood to really finish it. I mean it built up the stagger bar really fast...

[Talaysen]

Ravager spam raises the chain by about 10-15% to "average" chain resistance, and stagger point is 240%.  That's 10-14 turns, not including the times you have to slow down the gauge with Commando.  Fights generally won't last that long.

[Grefter]

Late on this, but a lot of your analysis of character stuff is completely and totally aftergame analysis, which is all well and good, but most discussion in this thread regarding character worth is going to be regarding the regular portion of the game (You know, that part that everyone has to play, not just the people that really like it?) which is going to skew character use in different directions.  While Sazh is indeed really good during the regular game, the main benefits of Cold Blood and his Blitz do not really apply until you get to those extremes in statistics and the fact that huge enemies are not super common during the regular game. 

Remember there is a whole ton of game before Chapter 10 and there is a non-negligible bit after it as well.

[PKNintendo]

Sazh is still very good throughout the game because he gets haste over hope. He starts to deep slightly during chapter 13 when Hope gets Haste and what not but is makes a comeback post-game.

[Grefter]

Exactly, Sazh is far from bad during the main game, but the big fights that are much of an issue during the main game Haste isn't really an advantage.  You go into those fights prebuffed with both offensive and defensive shrouds.  So you are more looking at a good healer/Ravager with options of good defensive buffs (so if it is a long fight you are back to being vulnerable after shrouds are gone) compared to Sazh who brings Com/Rav to the table which you have preeeetty solidly covered with Lightning with the ability to rebuff your key offensive buffs after your shrouds run out.   Suffice to say if a fight took the 5 minutes or so it takes Shrouds to run out you are looking at a boss that you are turtling against or something where blitzing is just straight up not your best option (That or you are ... really bad at blitzing the enemy?) and if you are looking at one of the enemies with Dispel I would be questioning the net benefit of extra turns spent rebuffing Haste with ones gained over just continuing to deal without the Haste.

He really shines in Randoms where you are likely to get good use out of Haste, he definitely isn't Snow who you either have to leverage into the party or just pretty much never use.  Compared to the raw effectiveness of Lightning's setup for most of the game or the things that Vanille, Hope and/or Fang bring to the table from their toolboxes there is no real shock that people are going to be a bit underwhelmed by "Brings Haste and redundant party building skillset".

He is a functional choice and there is definitely situations that he is optimal to apply to, but they aren't situations that you honestly can't get by without him.  The person's slot he best fills is Lightning really and using him instead there is akin to using Snow in a party.  You have to either forgo a strong defensive option or leverage him into the party because you want to use him.  That is absolutely fine, but not everyone is super peachy keen on dropping the raw powerhouse that is Lightning or rejigging their slightly less optimal unhasted party in the situations where you don't need the defensive options that come with having a Sentinel and/or Saboteur or Hope's Synergist skills available (Because you know, reshuffling Paradigm Shifts is not exactly the most fun thing you can be doing.)

Sazh would likely shine far more in a game without Shrouds, but the game has them and they are broken, so boohoo.

Edit - For reference, I used Sazh for a few reasons, one being I like having haste for randoms sometimes and he was the only character in the game I gave 2 shits about, so hey may as well give him a spin right?  Well for a game that is all about constantly shifting battle field roles and all characters multi tasking, all but one of Sazh's Paradigms were with him as Ravager with one option of him as Synergist, usually in a Com/Rav/Syn setup that was used to flip between that and Com/Rav/Rav for trash enemy face rolling.

[PKNintendo]

Ah an avid FFXIII player. I like you.
You also know Sazh well enough so that's good.

(Ironically I didn't like him personally, EVERYBODY seems to like him but eh... I just don't see it)

Meh, Shrouds are very difficult to come by until the end where you can buy them. They are limited in quantity and I ran out REALLY quickly. Maybe you are conservative but once I used them up, I found myself relying on Sazh for the good buffs for a while. Hope was the ******** frail and I figured I need a commando too. Chapter 13 was where I tossed him for hope. Suddenly this BAMF could actually TAKE A HIT, and he learned haste so why use Sazh? He was very weak and he just didn't do it offensively.

(I think we can all say that Light/Fang/Hope just dominates this game)

It wasn't POST game where Sazh picked up use. His Ultimate weapons give him MASSIVE power boosts, and their abilities are too good to pass up.  Augment maintenance greatly boosts the duration of buffs and can be useful in many fights. (cough final boss cough) and Stagger maintenance is really haxy.


Don't forgot about Sazh Blitzing adamantoise kill at 1:44 secs. (search it up on youtube)




A character that I found that was LVP was Snow. He was the best sentinal for a while, but why would I use him over Fang who is a lot stronger offensively? One might argue that Snow has the ravagar class but fang as access to the saboteur class. Everyone knows that RAV/RAV/SAB>>>RAV/RAV/RAV
She was also a lot stronger than him and could take a hit. I much preferred Lightning (elude ftw) over him too.

[DjinnAndTonic]

Ah an avid FFXIII player. I like you.
You also know Sazh well enough so that's good.

(Ironically I didn't like him personally, EVERYBODY seems to like him but eh... I just don't see it)

Snrk. Man, I wish I could troll Grefter so obliviously. <3

[Anthony Edward Stark]

That IS a pretty mean thing to say.

[Grefter]

Eh I have been called worse. 

Shrouds are rare enough that I finished the game with like 5 of each without ever purchasing some, so eh.  That is with half the side quests done and a good portion of the way made through one run into Orphan's Cradle before I plateaued on Chapter 10 Crystarium and my ability to care.  You shouldn't really need to use them for anything other than bosses or maybe some encounters if you really feel like overextending yourself (Deceptisol of course not really mattering).  So meh.

I am confused as to what you mean by Sazh doesn't pick up just in the post game because his ultimates are good.  Getting your hands on a Trapzahedron to upgrade to a tier 3 weapon takes a retardedly huge amount of time spent cash grinding to be able to afford, well past the point where you have maxed out your Crystarium for the chapter.  The final 2 chapters are balanced pretty cleanly around having capped out Tier 2 weapons.  I mean you can pretty easilly get that 5 star the final boss trophy with them.  Ultimate weapons are pure aftergame grind fuel.

For the record and to get the jokes, I hated this game with a burning passion.  But that doesn't mean I can't engage discussion about optimal gameplay and try to give some kind of justification for the views expressed by others in the thread.

[DjinnAndTonic]

I finished the game with half the side quests done and a good portion of the way made through one run into Orphan's Cradle before I plateaued on Chapter 10 Crystarium and my ability to care.

For the record and to get the jokes, I hated this game with a burning passion. 

It amuses how much Grefter hates this game and yet he's certainly played it for much longer than I did.

[Meeplelard]

I hated ;_; like pretty much the entire way through, and I still played that to more or less completion.

And that's a good 30 hours more than I spent on FF13, and I LIKE FF13!

[PKNintendo]

I hated ;_; like pretty much the entire way through, and I still played that to more or less completion.

And that's a good 30 hours more than I spent on FF13, and I LIKE FF13!

You hated what now?




Anywho Grefter I wasn't being sarcastic.

I am confused as to what you mean by Sazh doesn't pick up just in the post game because his ultimates are good.  Getting your hands on a Trapzahedron to upgrade to a tier 3 weapon takes a retardedly huge amount of time spent cash grinding to be able to afford, well past the point where you have maxed out your Crystarium for the chapter.  The final 2 chapters are balanced pretty cleanly around having capped out Tier 2 weapons.  I mean you can pretty easilly get that 5 star the final boss trophy with them.  Ultimate weapons are pure aftergame grind fuel.

Fair enough sir. The worst of it is that Sazh ultimate weapon takes a Dark Matter. (-_-)
I guess I'll have to do with the Proceons/Sirus Side arms.