Is it just me, or does FFXIII sound...kinda bad

[metroid composite]

I keep hearing stuff that just sounds like I wouldn't like it much.  For instance....

AI party members.  You can't switch who you're controlling in-battle.  For the first half of the game you can't even choose which character you control (later in the game they let you pick party leader).

Some good stuff (they heal you after every fight, so you don't have to waste time) some weird stuff (no MP, apparently) and...

Speed it sounds like they're using the Hoshigami system, where each turn you get 2 bars (4 bars by the end of the game) and you choose a bunch of actions until you run out of bars (some actions costing more time) and that's your turn.  It's a speed system that...well...has potential to be done right, but I've seen it done wrong so many times.  I'm told walking does not use up your bar, at least, which is the usual huge flaw of this system (makes it such a bad idea to charge an enemy as they'll then get to attack back three times in a row).


I mean, I dunno: when people talk to me in vague terms, they say it's a game with a tactical battle system that's all combat and plot, no minigames or sidequests, and the combat makes you think a lot.  This sounds great in the abstract.  But whenever I hear more technical details it all leaves me very worried.  Then again, if someone had described Fire Emblem as a game with only attack commands and with breakable weapons, before I played it I'd be like "okay, sounds like a 4/10" whereas FE7's 10/10 for me.  So...I guess I shouldn't completely write it off.  Still....

[superaielman]

The FF main series hasn't had a game I'd call really objectively good since FFX, so I wouldn't be floored if 13 was not great either. *Sets fire to FF11*

[Anthony Edward Stark]

Eh, I struck it from the list of games I might possibly rent when I realized it was just another attempt by Square to make an MMO without the overhead or their crippling inability to make a tolerable MMO.

Also, don't make your placenames fucking PUNS.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Yeah, FE parallel may end up holding. I do agree with those concerns, but remain very excited nonetheless. Ryan is playing it and has nothing but good things to say about it, and I usually trust his opinion on RPGs.

[Cmdr_King]

I'm holding off judgement until the US release at a minimum since... well, Square usually packs some new stuff into US releases, and it's the sort of content than Niu ranted about being missing (ie sidequests, etc)

[Grefter]

Yeah, FE parallel may end up holding. I do agree with those concerns, but remain very excited nonetheless. Ryan is playing it and has nothing but good things to say about it, and I usually trust his opinion on RPGs.

Not to knock his taste in games but Ryan suffers from abject optimism like the rest of you weird Canadians.  I am glad to see the world is setting Metroid straight and getting her all paranoid about it.

Just personally, don't care and it sounds shit really, but I will buy it anyway since fuck I bought Infinite Undiscovery and the Last Remnant fucking TWICE so I may as well get FF13.  Some day they will do the FF9 thing again and try to appease to their old fans and will maybe make a decent fucking game by trying to reproduce FFX.

[metroid composite]

Ryan is playing it and has nothing but good things to say about it, and I usually trust his opinion on RPGs.

To be fair, I have also heard it said that Crisis Core is one of the games with closest gameplay, and Ryan went out of his way to say "I love the game, but Elfboy I don't think it'll fit your tastes."

[Meeplelard]

I've heard nothing but good things about the game too, for all that some of the ideas sound questionable.

My friend said that FF13's plot style is akin to FF6's, in that its totally linear at first, but 2nd half sand-boxes out and becomes totally side quest centric (when I equated it to FF6's scenario, he said its more or less exactly like that), but honestly dunno beyond that.  Personally, I like that idea cause...well...it worked in FF6, and more games need to do it damn it!

The only complaint I heard my friend say was that FF13's Music is a bit...generic.  He didn't say bad, he said more like all the music sort of is stale, in that they don't really capture the scenes much, and everything feels interchangeable to a degree.  Its like the music is all just kind of in the background, instead of actually adding to the scenes; you can't really deny that some songs really do add to a scene, so its disappointing that, should this be true, FF13 didn't really capture this as FF games are generally good about it.

I don't think comparing FF13 to FF11 and FF12 is realistically fair at all.  FF11 is an MMO (which was a dumb move to put in the main stream series if you ask me), so by nature, its appealing to a totally different fan-base.
FF12...was getting mixed reviews.  FF13 I keep hearing generally good things about, but FF12 was either objective comparisons like "Its very MMOish" or luke warm to flat out bad reception.  You watch the game and it doesn't really look appealing either; FF13 doesn't sound like it has this problem.

Also, personally, I remember how I felt about hearing about the two games:
FF12, for a number of reasons I won't get into, didn't sound appealing to me.  I eventually bought it cause, you know, fan of the series, I might as well give it a chance (I don't regret doing this either, as I ended up liking the game.)
FF13, I am actually excited for, despite the "keep information at a minimum, watch 0 trailers, etc." factor to avoid me going all DISSIDIA MEEPLE all over again. 

Of course, I am taking the CYNICAL approach and going to assume the game is crap before even playing it.  Why?  So if it IS crap, I'm not disappointed.  If the game proves me wrong and is good...well, I end up pleasantly surprised.  Yeah, going with such an approach makes life easier for gaming <.< >.>

[Excal]

I...  yeah.  The little I have seen of it, and been able to understand, as well as what I have heard from Ryan, I'm actually kind of excited over it, which is something that I haven't really been able to say since FFX.  And unlike Crisis Core, he did not bring up anything along the lines of it not being to our tastes.

Granted, he was still getting battle tutorials when we saw him playing, but the fact that it seems the system has tactical depth and the challenge to make you have to use it looks promising.

[Scar]

The game really never struck me as something I REALLY wanted to play. That and...well I don't have a 360 or a PS3 to play the game makes it a non issue anyways.

But, if/when I get a new age system I wouldn't buy FF13 until it it drops to the greatest hits shelf and pick it up 20 bucks new.

If it turns out to be a good game, I would be super shocked.

[Bobbin Cranbud]

I'm still somewhat leery.

I remember an early Nomura quote on the game in which he described Lightning as something like "a female Cloud," and, well, I didn't much like Cloud and don't much like that type of character cast as a female.

AI party members, and not being able to switch from a character I don't have reason to think I'll like, sounds bad, too.

But then I think, this is an FF game: beautiful graphics, fascinating worldbuilding, tight gameplay, lots of content, and a story I am very likely to think highly of.  And it's an FF game PACED LIKE UNCHARTED.  No going off the rails.  No inane townie dialogue.  Just one awesome scene after another, be it story or gameplay, only 30-60 hours of it instead of 10-15.

As long as either Lightning surprises me by being likable, or the supporting cast is at least solid, or the world is especially interesting, I'll probably like this one a lot.  And I think at least one of the three should fall within the realm of possibility.

[metroid composite]

I remember an early Nomura quote on the game in which he described Lightning as something like "a female Cloud," and, well, I didn't much like Cloud and don't much like that type of character cast as a female.

I'm pretty sure Nomura meant that visually.  Since, y'know, he's an artist not a writer, and their faces are practically identical:

[Grefter]

But then I think, this is an FF game: beautiful graphics, fascinating worldbuilding, tight gameplay, lots of content, and a story I am very likely to think highly of.  And it's an FF game PACED LIKE UNCHARTED.  No going off the rails.  No inane townie dialogue.  Just one awesome scene after another, be it story or gameplay, only 30-60 hours of it instead of 10-15.

Argh, while the possibilities there are interesting can you imagine playing 30-60 hours of uncharted?  They are great games for what they are, but keeping that up for that long?  I would just be worn out, you would chew through so much plot that the start of the game would have to look nothing like the start of it.  There is a great deal to be said of pacing, something as long as your standard FF RPG definitely needs its filler points just to give you a breather (Which should not be taken as an excuse for 20 minutes of cutscene).

[NotMiki]

I'm still somewhat leery.

I remember an early Nomura quote on the game in which he described Lightning as something like "a female Cloud," and, well, I didn't much like Cloud and don't much like that type of character cast as a female.

You could come up with a fairly specific 1-sentence description that would apply equally well to Terra or Cloud, you know.  Amnesia, special quasi-genetic characteristic shared with the bad guy, dead almost-love-interest, etc.  Even if they produce another character with nominally similar characteristics, it won't mean much until you see how they fit in the world and with other cast members.

[Anthony Edward Stark]

I'm still somewhat leery.

I remember an early Nomura quote on the game in which he described Lightning as something like "a female Cloud," and, well, I didn't much like Cloud and don't much like that type of character cast as a female.

You could come up with a fairly specific 1-sentence description that would apply equally well to Terra or Cloud, you know.  Amnesia, special quasi-genetic characteristic shared with the bad guy, dead almost-love-interest, etc.  Even if they produce another character with nominally similar characteristics, it won't mean much until you see how they fit in the world and with other cast members.

But when your director describes someone as "a female _____" then it's usually a pretty safe bet that they're not going to be trying to differentiate that character much from the one they're cribbing off.

[metroid composite]

I'm still somewhat leery.

I remember an early Nomura quote on the game in which he described Lightning as something like "a female Cloud," and, well, I didn't much like Cloud and don't much like that type of character cast as a female.

You could come up with a fairly specific 1-sentence description that would apply equally well to Terra or Cloud, you know.  Amnesia, special quasi-genetic characteristic shared with the bad guy, dead almost-love-interest, etc.  Even if they produce another character with nominally similar characteristics, it won't mean much until you see how they fit in the world and with other cast members.

But when your director describes someone as "a female _____" then it's usually a pretty safe bet that they're not going to be trying to differentiate that character much from the one they're cribbing off.

You know, Harry Potter managed to engage me through 7 books, with the only stipulation being "this is a slightly older version of Harry Potter".

I mean, next you'll be telling me that sometime in the next few years there'll be a new RPG character that's a tomboy princess, a new large male not good at expressing his feelings, a new perkly slightly annoying but generally adorable little girl, and a new villain only motivated by pure evil.

Stereotypes don't often turn me off.  For that matter, stereotypes used properly are actually an excellent character tool.  Jane Austen is often considered one of the best character authors ever, and what she does is captures personalities we might know in real life, extracts them into a stereotype, and then exaggerates the stereotype until it's ridiculous and funny.  The problem with most RPG stereotypes isn't that they're stereotypes, but rather they're overused stereotypes.  Even then, if a game is meant to be fast to get into, having a supporting cast of recognizable one-dimensional stereotypes gives most people an immediate groundwork where the player can be comfortable, and a groundwork in which you can throw in a couple of more complex characters while keeping the overall feel of the game lighthearted and easy to follow.

Of course, if you're NOT aiming for lighthearted and easy to digest, then this becomes a terrible idea; you'll want to cut out the riff-raff (like they do in, say, Koudelka).  And I love Koudelka.  But *shrug* comedy vs tragedy and all that.  I'd like to play a few more games that trend towards the tragedy side, but...main-series-FF?  Not the first place I'd go looking.

[alanna82]

The other party members are AI controled? And people are complaining about this why? Persona 3 had AI controled party members and its a great game.

[Rozalia]

I really don't see the problem with AI controlled party members, I mean you're hardly going to be able to control 4 characters anyway so why not. Throw in some gambits and I'll be right chuffed.

[Bobbin Cranbud]

Argh, while the possibilities there are interesting can you imagine playing 30-60 hours of uncharted?

I'm pretty sure the thought of this retroactively appeared to early man, inspiring the concept of a Heaven comprised of eternal bliss.

Seriously, though, I sort of understand what you're saying... but I'm fairly sure it wouldn't apply to me.  Uncharted 2 (1 had occasional pacing hiccups) was perfectly paced and had to end where it did because of its story, but if that had been "episode 2" out of 5 and we'd jumped right in to "episode 3" after the credits rolled, I'd have been delighted.  I don't see any particular reason you couldn't tell a novel-length rather than movie-length story in such a cinematic fashion, provided you do use plot-induced pacing breaks as deftly as Uncharted 2 did.

Now, there's now reason to suspect Square-Enix will nail the pacing to THAT extent, but I'm fairly confident in their ability to deliver what amounts to a decent SF/F adventure novel in visual form interspersed with gameplay I find interesting, since they've basically done that again and again but with breakups in the action.

You could come up with a fairly specific 1-sentence description that would apply equally well to Terra or Cloud, you know.  Amnesia, special quasi-genetic characteristic shared with the bad guy, dead almost-love-interest, etc.  Even if they produce another character with nominally similar characteristics, it won't mean much until you see how they fit in the world and with other cast members.

Who is Terra's dead quasi-love interest?  General Leo?  They have basically one scene together and even that's not explicitly romantic.  I don't think that's comparable to Aerith x Cloud, which the game actually sells as a romance (or tries to, in its clumsy, awfully-translated fashion).  Locke's the one with the quasi-dead love interest in FF6.  And Setzer.  And it's Celes who shares an origin story with the villain; in FF6 it's Terra who is MORE special by dint of being a true hybrid rather than an augment, whereas in FF7 Sephiroth is.

Besides, I took the quote, perhaps wrongly, to be about personality, not backstory (as you're saying) or appearance (as mc is saying).

Meh, hopefully I'll be proven wrong, anyway.

[Excal]

Hmm, oddly enough, FF7 always felt more like it pushed Tifa/Cloud rather than Aeris to me.  Probably because of the scenes on Disc two where Tifa helps Cloud figure out who he is, and the talk they have on the Highwind about motivations.

[Grefter]

I dunno man, I think it would work if you split it into different episodes because it would be quite clearly designed to be easilly partitioned off into individual pieces.  That story telling style does not lend itself to multiple climaxes, it is all very cinematic and all that, but with that comes your three act story structure (or short stories if you want to parallel it with a more literary analogue).  The reason the 60 hour games work is because like you say they follow a more novel story telling format which trend towards multiple climaxes.  This lends itself to multiple stages of build up which inherently brings us that sweet sweet filler that we are trying to avoid (Classic ham fisted example here would be Tales of Destiny with the middle of the game where the break after the first climax is amazingly sharp and harshly jumped into).  

I dunno, it just lends itself to much to either emotional whiplash with the constant flurry of peaks and troughs, or you end up with something which is just a chain of climaxes (Tantric RPG OH YEAH) which is not a great way of actually conveying a coherent story.  Sure it works great in say Devil May Cry, because it is silly, but a serious story?  I dunno man I just won't be sold on it until I really see it.

I think the best example would be to say trying to read all of a large series in one hit, sure you might really love the series, but doing it all at once is just draining.  I am yet to actually get all the way through the Star Wars OT without being a little bored.  I am just plain worn out by Empire that I don't really feel like doing Jedi.  And I mean like Empire is one of my favourite movies of all time, but you get to the betrayal at Bespin and I just start to zone out.  That is only like 4 and a half hours in.  That is the kind of thing you are looking at doing there really.

I think my point is repeating itself and you already said you got it.  I will say this though, that exact structure does actually work really well in the Episodic gaming space  (I would love to quote Halflife 2 here but bah, stupid Episode 3).  I dunno, Sam and Max it worked really well, but you aren't dealing with a serious narrative there, but it definitely went through the peaks and troughs consistently and it was all good fun as a whole and in individual pieces, but they all really needed each other to be a full game.

As for FF7.  Cloud x Barret is canon.  This is a Nomura game. (And it pushes both the serious love interests  Aeris is pimped hard on Disc 1 and Tifa on Disc 2 and Disc 3 has no plot).

[DjinnAndTonic]

Disc 3 was Cloud x Sephiroth.

[Anthony Edward Stark]

I'm still somewhat leery.

I remember an early Nomura quote on the game in which he described Lightning as something like "a female Cloud," and, well, I didn't much like Cloud and don't much like that type of character cast as a female.

You could come up with a fairly specific 1-sentence description that would apply equally well to Terra or Cloud, you know.  Amnesia, special quasi-genetic characteristic shared with the bad guy, dead almost-love-interest, etc.  Even if they produce another character with nominally similar characteristics, it won't mean much until you see how they fit in the world and with other cast members.

But when your director describes someone as "a female _____" then it's usually a pretty safe bet that they're not going to be trying to differentiate that character much from the one they're cribbing off.

You know, Harry Potter managed to engage me through 7 books, with the only stipulation being "this is a slightly older version of Harry Potter".

I mean, next you'll be telling me that sometime in the next few years there'll be a new RPG character that's a tomboy princess, a new large male not good at expressing his feelings, a new perkly slightly annoying but generally adorable little girl, and a new villain only motivated by pure evil.

Stereotypes don't often turn me off.  For that matter, stereotypes used properly are actually an excellent character tool.  Jane Austen is often considered one of the best character authors ever, and what she does is captures personalities we might know in real life, extracts them into a stereotype, and then exaggerates the stereotype until it's ridiculous and funny.  The problem with most RPG stereotypes isn't that they're stereotypes, but rather they're overused stereotypes.  Even then, if a game is meant to be fast to get into, having a supporting cast of recognizable one-dimensional stereotypes gives most people an immediate groundwork where the player can be comfortable, and a groundwork in which you can throw in a couple of more complex characters while keeping the overall feel of the game lighthearted and easy to follow.

Of course, if you're NOT aiming for lighthearted and easy to digest, then this becomes a terrible idea; you'll want to cut out the riff-raff (like they do in, say, Koudelka).  And I love Koudelka.  But *shrug* comedy vs tragedy and all that.  I'd like to play a few more games that trend towards the tragedy side, but...main-series-FF?  Not the first place I'd go looking.

It's not that they're reusing an archetype so much as they seem to be setting their sights pretty low. Miyamoto isn't going to tell you "Super Mario Galaxy 2 is Super Mario Galaxy but with different levels. $49.99." Attaching tits to Cloud isn't going to make the story inherently different any more than it does when I play Lady Gunslinger in Arcanum instead of Gentleman Gunslinger. Maybe the character enjoys a different style of genital, and maybe this time you can bang Metzger and he'll release Vic, but it doesn't really change the character.

I suppose if you enjoy Cloud and FF7, then you might be psyched to just get more of the same. Sure, I'd be psyched if Square said "We are making a new Front Mission game. It is basically Crescent Hawks' Inception but with better graphics because it's not on a 3.5" floppy." But if your goal is just to serve up more of the same, then you're not really trying to tell a story, you're just fanwanking. And that's kind of what it seems like he's trying to do, since most of the comparisons I've seen Nomura make just describe the game in terms of another game.

[Meeplelard]

From what I understand with FF7...

CloudxAerith was the original intended pairing.  But mid development, they decided to pull the Disc 1 stunt, cause they wanted to try something different for once, and do a gutsy move like "kill off the stereotype deus ex machina driven female lead!" for a number of reasons.  With that done, they thus elevated Tifa's role to be somewhat greater than originally intended, naturally, to fill the gaps that were probably originally intended for Aerith (and naturally, rewrote factors to fit Tifa's character personally, like actual past connections with Cloud, so Tifa played the part effectively, rather than feeling completely forced and an utter replacement.)

The end result is that FF7 pushes both pairings, kind of.  Disc 1 is definitely CloudxAerith-centric, the game even goes as far as to have Cait Sith say "You two are a perfect couple! Poor Tifa..." but then they kill off Aerith, and she doesn't get revived, so whoops, can't push that pairing!  ANd since CloudxTifa could easily be built upon, they basically decided to go from there.

Its worth noting that Aerith is clearly intended to be the canon date.  Not only does she have the highest initial "Love" score, she also wins all tie breaks (and Barret loses all tie breaks ), IIRC. 

Basically, CloudxAerith felt like it was originally intended, but due to changes in developmental stages, they decided to hook Cloud with Tifa at the end by killing off Aerith so they don't have to explain why Cloud randomly dumps her for the girl with a bigger rack.

You know, talking about these changes in FF7's plot mid development made me realize just how much more insulting FF12's changes were.  FF7 changed stuff and managed to make it work, cause they didn't do a half assed job, like make Tifa work WITH the scenes, not be forcefully shoved in there so she can get boned by Cloud by the end of the game.
FF12? "Hey, Vaan's the real main now in BASCH's story!  No, beyond the early narrative, we haven't adjusted the plot at all to compensate for Vaan being the true lead...so we accidentally kind of main Ashe the game's protagonist...but then Balthier is the self proclaimed 'leading man' so all the fans are going to claim him of course, since he's just THAT DAMN SEXY!"

FF12, I like you, but dear god did you fuck up badly on plot in so many ways.

[Anthony Edward Stark]

Well, outside of the very end of the game, nothing you do matters at all, so who the protagonist of the narrative is doesn't have much of a bearing on anything. If could be anybody and it wouldn't make a difference, since everything important is crammed in to the last dungeon and on.