Parties & Rivals Team Tourney - Finals

[SnowFire]

Results.  3/4 of the champs finally lost a match, with only Ramza's crew sailing undefeated through the tourney.  The mighty Brahman falls at last, albeit only by a vote.  And those darn meddling kids from Inaba High finally meet their match with a different super-soldier.  And the Tenkai Stars prove that while they might be pretty light on vocabulary, they're not on power and defeat the Elemental True Rune holders.

Godlike
Brahman (Digital Devil Saga) vs. Vayne, Jessica, Nikki, Flay, Pamela, Anna (Mana Khemia) (3-2)
Guv, Yangus, Jessica, Angelo (Dragon Quest VIII) vs. Lady (Shadow Hearts: FTNW) (4-1)
Zophar (Lunar: Eternal Blue Complete) vs. Sulphur (Phantom Brave) (3-1)

Heavy
Ulrika, Chloe, Pepperoni, Goto, Enna (Mana Khemia 2) vs. Ryu, Rei, Momo (Breath of Fire III) (3-0)
Yosuke, Chie, Yukiko, Teddie (Persona 4) vs. Indalecio (Star Ocean 2) (4-3)

Middle
Ramza, Agrias, Mustadio, Orlandu, Meliadoul (Final Fantasy Tactics) vs. Hugo, Fubar, Sgt. Joe, Lilly (Suikoden III) (5-1)
Xorn (Grandia III) vs. Lavos (Chrono Trigger) (5-1)

Light
Pikachu, Charizard, Blastoise, Venusaur, Snorlax, Espeon (Pokemon) vs. Loki (Valkyrie Profile) (3-2)
Luke, Guy, Tear, Jade (Tales of the Abyss) vs. Ashley, Brad, Lilka (Wild Arms 2) (4-1)

Bonus Match
Tir, Riou, Thomas, Lazlo, Freyjadour, Tenkai Star [Suikoden Tierkreis] (Suikoden series) vs. Hugo, Chris, Geddoe, Sasarai, Luc (Suikoden III) (4-1)

All right.  Finals were always going to be a bit wacky in Double Elim, but short version is that if 2 teams remain, it's a standard finals, and if 3 teams, it's a mini-round robin of theoretically 3 matches, except that 2 have likely been played already.  This gets to be even wackier due to my mistaken matchup in round 2.  As it happens, of the three teams left in Godlike with a single loss, they've...  all played each other already due to the mistake.  So that mini-round robin is done already!  Middle also wrapped up last week, Ramza's already beaten Xorn.  Luckily there are still matches to play in Heavy and Light, and we've invited a special Ubergodlike (or "Bluelike" as some people call it) match to go along with the bonus to fatten things up.

---
Historical matches:
Brahman (Digital Devil Saga) vs. Guv, Yangus, Jessica, Angelo (Dragon Quest VIII) (5-0)
Brahman (Digital Devil Saga) vs. Vayne, Jessica, Nikki, Flay, Pamela, Anna (Mana Khemia) (3-2)
Guv, Yangus, Jessica, Angelo (Dragon Quest VIII) vs. Vayne, Jessica, Nikki, Flay, Pamela, Anna (Mana Khemia) (4-4) (Meeple tiebreak)

Ulrika, Chloe, Pepperoni, Goto, Enna (Mana Khemia 2) vs. Indalecio (Star Ocean 2) (3-0)
Ulrika, Chloe, Pepperoni, Goto, Enna (Mana Khemia 2) vs. Ryu, Rei, Momo (Breath of Fire III) (3-0)

Xorn (Grandia III) vs. Ramza, Agrias, Mustadio, Orlandu, Meliadoul (Final Fantasy Tactics) (4-2)

Pikachu, Charizard, Blastoise, Venusaur, Snorlax, Espeon (Pokemon) vs. Loki (Valkyrie Profile) (3-2)
Luke, Guy, Tear, Jade (Tales of the Abyss) vs. Pikachu, Charizard, Blastoise, Venusaur, Snorlax, Espeon (Pokemon) (3-2)
---

So congratulations to our Godlike champion...  Brahman after all, because to keep things simple we're using full vote margin 'cause it's easy to calculate, and Brahman's crushing victory over DQ8 gives it the day.  But the Mana Khemia team would totally have won using Schwartz Sequential Dropping which would have judged more on "whose loss was the least convincing," as the MK team loss was by 0 votes, but Brahman's was by 1.  So I will cheerfully embezzle the prize money from the sun and give it to the spunky alchemy students who are apparently completely broken when they work together.  And congratulations to Ramza's team as well; who'd have thought that a team with so little healing would conquer Middle?  Okay, Dark Sword / Wish / Icy Lightning Strikes from the sky do well enough, it seems.

Anyway, there's still business to settle.  The speed of said settling varies, as while the Ubergodlike match will probably be wrapped up in a turn, this week's bonus match takes years.  Everyone knows that the difficulty of a boss is decided by how many forms it has, so let's set the best bosses the DL has to offer against each other...  unscaled.  It'll be fun!  ...maybe.

And oh yes.  Usual reminder that boss HP is unscaled and party size limits are enforced (so 3 characters out max for FFX).

As a reminder, the Mana Khemia 2 / Pokemon team can still win despite having no matches this week, it just will depend on tiebreakers since they've already played the other 2 finalists.  Since this is still a bit short as far as matches...  this is also the comments thread.  Any thoughts, ideas, or complaints on the tournament?  Was double elimination okay, or was seeing the same contestants too boring?  Nominations for a next go-round are also welcome, though it certainly won't be run for awhile if it happens.

Ubergodlike
Tidus, Aeonless Yuna, Auron, Kimahri, Wakka (Final Fantasy X) vs. Souji, Yosuke, Chie, Naoto (Persona 4)

Godlike

Heavy
Indalecio (Star Ocean 2) vs. Ryu, Rei, Momo (Breath of Fire III)

Middle

Light
Loki (Valkyrie Profile) vs. Luke, Guy, Tear, Jade (Tales of the Abyss)

Bonus Match
Nega Filgaia (Wild Arms 3) vs. Nyx Avatar (Moonless Gown once-per-battle) (Persona 3)

[superaielman]

Ubergodlike
Tidus, Aeonless Yuna, Auron, Kimahri, Wakka (Final Fantasy X) vs. Souji, Yosuke, Chie, Naoto (Persona 4)- Hassou Tobi is MT and brutally accurate.


Godlike

Heavy
Indalecio (Star Ocean 2) vs. Ryu, Rei, Momo (Breath of Fire III)- Too much MT offense.

Middle

Light
Loki (Valkyrie Profile) vs. Luke, Guy, Tear, Jade (Tales of the Abyss)- Carnage Anthem is enough pressure.

[Yoshiken]

Ubergodlike
Tidus, Aeonless Yuna, Auron, Kimahri, Wakka (Final Fantasy X) vs. Souji, Yosuke, Chie, Naoto (Persona 4) - Yeah, there's no way they can avoid HT. Yuna can Protect Auron, but then he can't do anything and would be on critical, or she can Auto-Life someone, but then they can't do much without the others coming in to sweep.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Heavy
Indalecio (Star Ocean 2) vs. Ryu, Rei, Momo (Breath of Fire III): Buffed Tiamat solos this pretty easily.

Middle

Light
Loki (Valkyrie Profile) vs. Luke, Guy, Tear, Jade (Tales of the Abyss): TotA's MT healing isn't good enough, and only Jade has useful offence here.

[dude789]

Ubergodlike
Tidus, Aeonless Yuna, Auron, Kimahri, Wakka (Final Fantasy X) vs. Souji, Yosuke, Chie, Naoto (Persona 4) FFX team can't stop HT.

Godlike

Heavy
Indalecio (Star Ocean 2) vs. Ryu, Rei, Momo (Breath of Fire III) Did Momo get MT healing or was it only Ryu? If Ryu's the only one with it then Indalecio just puts too much pressure on the BoF team for them to create any offense.

Middle

Light
Loki (Valkyrie Profile) vs. Luke, Guy, Tear, Jade (Tales of the Abyss)

Bonus Match
Nega Filgaia (Wild Arms 3) vs. Nyx Avatar (Moonless Gown once-per-battle) (Persona 3) I want to say that Nega had a form that required Replay to beat.

[SnowFire]

Re Hassou Tobi: What stops the FFX team from opening with Tidus / Auron / somebody, Tidus Slowgaing off Sonic Steel, Auron swapping for Wakka, and Wakka Triple Fouling Souji?  If nothing else a blinded Souji is going to have horrible hit on Hassou Tobi.  (Granted, there's still the problem of dealing with Naoto then.)

Light
Loki (Valkyrie Profile) vs. Luke, Guy, Tear, Jade (Tales of the Abyss) - Really close.  Inclined to say that the Loki MT physicals hype wipes out whoever Tear & somebody else aren't healing (Jade?), then Loki switches to Indiscriminate once only two targets are left?  My Loki HP respect is not huge but think he might barely make it.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Re Hassou Tobi: What stops the FFX team from opening with Tidus / Auron / somebody, Tidus Slowgaing off Sonic Steel, Auron swapping for Wakka, and Wakka Triple Fouling Souji?  If nothing else a blinded Souji is going to have horrible hit on Hassou Tobi.  (Granted, there's still the problem of dealing with Naoto then.)

Souji immunes physicals with the Persona that has Hassou Tobi and immuning an offense element in P4 also makes the status effects attached to an attack of the immuned element whiff.

[Talaysen]

Ubergodlike
Tidus, Aeonless Yuna, Auron, Kimahri, Wakka (Final Fantasy X) vs. Souji, Yosuke, Chie, Naoto (Persona 4) - Hassou Tobi is only 100% base accuracy.  Modified by LUC, but Souji's isn't exactly special.  I've definitely seen it miss when not buffed.  Yuna's still got good odds of evading this.  I doubt it's enough, since most of the team is dying to it and Yuna can't patch them all up.

Godlike

Heavy
Indalecio (Star Ocean 2) vs. Ryu, Rei, Momo (Breath of Fire III)

Middle

Light
Loki (Valkyrie Profile) vs. Luke, Guy, Tear, Jade (Tales of the Abyss)

Bonus Match
Nega Filgaia (Wild Arms 3) vs. Nyx Avatar (Moonless Gown once-per-battle) (Persona 3) - I don't think Replay was required for that form.  Magic still did damage, but it had very high magic defense.  Though I think only non-elemental magic worked.  Nyx Avatar is lacking almighty in most forms, so that's kind of a problem.

[Dhyerwolf]

Light
Loki (Valkyrie Profile) vs. Luke, Guy, Tear, Jade (Tales of the Abyss)- Tear MT invincibility has like a one turn duration...which works pretty well here

[DjinnAndTonic]

Light
Loki (Valkyrie Profile) vs. Luke, Guy, Tear, Jade (Tales of the Abyss)- Tear MT invincibility has like a one turn duration...which works pretty well here

Can the TotA team tank one round of Loki offense though? Because Force Field is really slow to cast, even by Tales' magic standards. I guess if you see all ARPGs as average, then there's a 50/50 chance that Force Field goes off before Loki's Dragon Orb? I guess with Tear's Pendant and Jade decent magic defense, those two might survive and then Tear/Jade solo (duo?) Loki with a Force Field/ Jade magic damage loop, assuming their resources outlast Loki's HP?

[Dhyerwolf]

Yeah, Loki gets a turn, but he can't really do anything with it since I don't think he can OHKO anyone (Well, it's really the mages that matter. EF is solid, but even shitty TotA elemental resistance helps). After that, Tear and Jade slowly team up to wear him down while Luke and Guy uh...exist pretty much. Suppose Jade could run out of MP though.

[Rozalia]

Ubergodlike
Tidus, Yuna, Auron, Kimahri, Wakka (Final Fantasy X) vs. Souji, Yosuke, Chie, Naoto (Persona 4) - If Souji is involved I see no reason to powerdown Yuna. Result is Souji and his school buddies can all say hi to Mt overkill that comes in seven different flavours.

[Yoshiken]

So, Tidus opens with First Strike Slowga, followed by... what? Yuna Protects Auron to survive an HT, and then they can't do anything. P4 team wins.

And Rozalia, the match specifically says Aeonless Yuna. Whether you'd do that or not is irrelevant.

[Rozalia]

I don't see why Yuna sould be downpowered at all as it isn't fair, not to mention Souji Mr Broken himself is involved. Not that it matters as my one vote isn't going to change anything.

So, Tidus opens with First Strike Slowga, followed by... what? Yuna Protects Auron to survive an HT, and then they can't do anything. P4 team wins.

No. Yuna summons Anima/bahamut/Shiva/whatever and Kills the whole enemy party with an overdrive. Also why would Yuna open with Protect anyway? HT uses Hp so she can just holy Souji to near death to stop it. Without that opening HT Souji dies anyway due to being slowed down. Then Souji could start with a slow persona instead right? Then Yuna has her aeons damn it.

[Pyro]

No. Yuna summons Anima/bahamut/Shiva/whatever and Kills the whole enemy party with an overdrive. Also why would Yuna open with Protect anyway? HT uses Hp so she can just holy Souji to near death to stop it. Without that opening HT Souji dies anyway due to being slowed down. Then Souji could start with a slow persona instead right? Then Yuna has her aeons damn it.

The P4 team can be brought down to 1 HP but not killed off immediately. Though if you let everyone on the FFX team start off with full overdrives it doesn't even $*&%(* matter.

[dude789]

I don't see why Yuna sould be downpowered at all as it isn't fair, not to mention Souji Mr Broken himself is involved. Not that it matters as my one vote isn't going to change anything.

So, Tidus opens with First Strike Slowga, followed by... what? Yuna Protects Auron to survive an HT, and then they can't do anything. P4 team wins.

No. Yuna summons Anima/bahamut/Shiva/whatever and Kills the whole enemy party with an overdrive. Also why would Yuna open with Protect anyway? HT uses Hp so she can just holy Souji to near death to stop it. Without that opening HT Souji dies anyway due to being slowed down. Then Souji could start with a slow persona instead right? Then Yuna has her aeons damn it.

So you're giving Yuna both Aeons and an Overdrive gauge? Even with both the P4 team has a good chance of winning. The Overdrive activates Endure for everyone and the P4ers use the massive lag to buff up, heal and slaughter the summon before smashing the FFX team when they come back.

[Yoshiken]

Except Yuna doesn't have her Aeons. I can see the argument behind thinking Yuna should have her Aeons, but that's not the question here. Since the match explicitly states 'Aeonless Yuna', then vote on Aeonless Yuna, simple as that. It doesn't make her much worse anyway, considering she still has Holy and the stupid evasion/MDef.

Secondly, why would the Aeon have an Overdrive? Duelists generlaly aren't given a full Limit/Overdrive/Meter/whatever, so why should the Aeons?

Holy... Okay, that one is a good move. But then, yeah, Souji just changes and uses 100% ID or status. With Yosuke/Naoto providing that too, alongside good speed and a lack of weaknesses, I can't see the FFX team being able to do anything.

Ninja'd - Yeah, guess everyone else picked up on that one too. And I'd even forgotten about Endure! Wow.

[Rozalia]

Even with both the P4 team has a good chance of winning. The Overdrive activates Endure for everyone and the P4ers use the massive lag to buff up, heal and slaughter the summon before smashing the FFX team when they come back.

You forget Anima/Magus Sisters overdrive isn't just a single hit but several. If endure kicks in whats it matter anyway? Yuna just summons another Aeon when the first falls and bam whole team destruction again.

Holy... Okay, that one is a good move. But then, yeah, Souji just changes and uses 100% ID or status. With Yosuke/Naoto providing that too, alongside good speed and a lack of weaknesses, I can't see the FFX team being able to do anything.

You allow that then its fully reasonable to allow aeons. If not then I see no reason why I shouldn't be allowed to take Overpowered Yuna vs Overpowered Souji or Aeonless Yuna vs Izanagi only Souji.
I am in the wrong due to it listing Aeonless Yuna true but I see this aeonless thing everywhere and am quite frankly sick of it.

I can see the argument behind thinking Yuna should have her Aeons, but that's not the question here. Since the match explicitly states 'Aeonless Yuna', then vote on Aeonless Yuna, simple as that.

Fine then, Souji gets similer ristriction and is stuck with just Izanagi. P4 team loses.

[dude789]

I don't think endure activates until all of the hits are finished. I remeber fighting Margaret and when she used her PCed Hassou Tobi Yukiko survived it because of Edure.

You may not be happy with Aeonless Yuna, but in this case that was an intended restriction placed on the FFX team to make the fight more interesting. It's true that Souji is by far the strongest fighter in that match, but the FFX team has numbers and is generally more effective than the rest of the P4 team. I think the fight could theoretically be more interesting than people are making it out to be with all the status shenanigans the FFX team can use. 

[Yoshiken]

Think the problem with FFX status is that it's all either Overdrive or ST. When both Naoto and Souji are throwing around ID and Yosuke's backing it up with some status, they need to have MT status to do anything.

And yeah, Endure is checked at the end of a turn, so multi-hit moves run into Endure, as Dude said.

...Although I'm still not seeing why Overdrive really matters. If you're giving the entire FFX team Overdrives to begin with anyways, they've probably won with Eject on Souji.

[Rozalia]

And yeah, Endure is checked at the end of a turn, so multi-hit moves run into Endure, as Dude said.

Doesn't matter. Yuna gets a turn the moment Anima Falls so Magus Sisters can Delta attack to finish off the whole P4 team. Last I checked Endure works once per fight and no amount of buffing is stopping Delta attack.

...Although I'm still not seeing why Overdrive really matters. If you're giving the entire FFX team Overdrives to begin with anyways, they've probably won with Eject on Souji.

That works too but I prefer delicious overkill, not to mention it might hit endure so I saw no need to mention it.

It's true that Souji is by far the strongest fighter in that match, but the FFX team has numbers and is generally more effective than the rest of the P4 team.

What is the point of numbers when most of them die the moment Souji gets a turn? As I've said if my view on allowing Yuna Aeons is invalid then I'll just restrict Souji instead. I'm not trying to start a fight or anything I'm just voting the way I am due to reasons I've mentioned.

[Yoshiken]

Then restrict Souji. The most common way to do that is to limit him to not changing Persona and... oh, Yoshitsune immunes physicals and has Hassou Tobi.

2/3 ways of looking at this fight have the P4 team winning, and it seems ridiculous that you're maintaining this argument solely to make the FFX team win.

[Talaysen]

Yoshitsune blocks Light element, Holy doesn't do crap here.

Doesn't matter. Yuna gets a turn the moment Anima Falls so Magus Sisters can Delta attack to finish off the whole P4 team. Last I checked Endure works once per fight and no amount of buffing is stopping Delta attack.

Yuna does not get an instant turn when a summon dies.

[Rozalia]

Yoshitsune blocks Light element, Holy doesn't do crap here.

Last I checked it was non-elemental.

Yuna does not get an instant turn when a summon dies.

Well this here strikes me as odd , I myself remember Yuna getting a turn everytime an aeon died (Except against Seymour with the multiple actions). Even freaks like Omega and the dark aeons who I'm guessing have some considerable speed didn't stop it.

Then restrict Souji. The most common way to do that is to limit him to not changing Persona and... oh, Yoshitsune immunes physicals and has Hassou Tobi.

Holy is not physical and stops Hassou Tobi. Yoshitsune is faster then his teams healers but slower then Yuna so Souji isn't pulling anything off.
Every member of the FFX team is getting at least one turn before the P4 team which includes Tidus who'll break the speed differance even more. The FFX team have a pick of the P4 team besides Souji who isn't doing anything anyway to pick off. Souji then gets a turn with his team mangled and a massive speed differance, I see no way to come back from that.

[dude789]

She does not get an instant turn. Its pretty easy to see against the last summon duel with Belgemine. If one of Yuna' aeons dies against the Magus Sisters there's a decent chance of them getting a turn and hitting her before she can summon again. IIRC, while holy isn't one of the big four elements there are a couple of enemies who are weak to it. I think Yunalesca and the ghost type enemies are the big ones.