Parties & Rivals Team Tourney - Finals

[Yoshiken]

Yeah, Holy is an element in FFX. Not one of the main four, but there are things that resist/immune it and not Flare/Ultima, so it's not NE.

I'll point out that, even ignoring Souji (and Aeons), the P4 team would probably still win. Chie has good damage and can attach some status, Yosuke has damage and status and Naoto has Mamudoon/Mahamaon with Boosts. All three are evasive, fast and have exactly what is needed to break the FFX team.

I know you wanted the FFX team to win; I know you don't agree with Yuna not having Aeons; the FFX team has been majorly spoiled here. Whatever. The arguments you're making now are ridiculously flawed and are becoming tiresome.

[DjinnAndTonic]

The FFX team have First Strike weapons, they should be able to do some damage before Souji HTs. I know at least Tidus and Auron have initiative, and there's probably another one, I haven't played in forever. FFX team starts with 3 Firststrike PCs, switches in its big damage PCs, they gang up on Souji to stop HT (even if they don't kill him). And... isn't there an ID blocker in FFX? That should even the playing field right there.

No time to stat topic anything, but I thought I'd post my initial impression.

[Yoshiken]

Depends on the legality of it. Think Deathproof is a little too obscure for most, Death Ward might be accepted, but does nothing if Souji is using his 100% ID. And even with Deathproof, everyone except Naoto has other status to play with.

[Talaysen]

The FFX team have First Strike weapons, they should be able to do some damage before Souji HTs. I know at least Tidus and Auron have initiative, and there's probably another one, I haven't played in forever. FFX team starts with 3 Firststrike PCs, switches in its big damage PCs, they gang up on Souji to stop HT (even if they don't kill him). And... isn't there an ID blocker in FFX? That should even the playing field right there.

No time to stat topic anything, but I thought I'd post my initial impression.

No, that doesn't work.  Just about everything the FFX team has is physical, which Yoshitsune nulls.  Holy's out as well (they do have a chance if Holy wasn't nulled, but too bad).  The best damage they have is Kimahri's Ultima, which is less than half average damage.  This match is so lopsided towards the P4 team it's not even funny.

Yoshiken: Souji doesn't have 100% ID.

[Yoshiken]

...Huh. What was I thinking of then? :s

Either way, variety of status available still makes it a null argument.

[dude789]

No, that doesn't work.  Just about everything the FFX team has is physical, which Yoshitsune nulls.  Holy's out as well (they do have a chance if Holy wasn't nulled, but too bad).  The best damage they have is Kimahri's Ultima, which is less than half average damage.  This match is so lopsided towards the P4 team it's not even funny.

Yoshiken: Souji doesn't have 100% ID.

Doesn't Samsara/Die for Me with Mudo/Hama Boost come really close though?

[Talaysen]

Doesn't Samsara/Die for Me with Mudo/Hama Boost come really close though?

Probably about 90% or so.  But that's still going to suck after Deathward.  I have no clue if it's legal or not, just replying to the arguments presented.

[Rozalia]

Whatever. The arguments you're making now are ridiculously flawed and are becoming tiresome.

Not much more can be said really. I've stated the explaination for my vote and argued it a bit but theres nothing to gain in repeating it.

[SnowFire]

Oh, well.  Didn't realize that the Souji nulls physicals = nulling most of FFX's status argument would play out.  Seems like coulda gone with normal Yuna as intended for a better matchup (though I doubt it'd have turned things much for me with my low Magus Sisters AI respect). 

As a random thought experiment, though, adding Lulu would still totally upend the match for FFX's side, right?  Even disallowing doublecast Ultimas, switch Auron->Lulu, doublecast Death->Death seems pretty scary regardless, since if Souji switches to Lucifer for maybe Light/Dark void is taken as ID resistance, he's not nulling physicals anymore letting Wakka status hype take the day.  Tidus's opening Slowga plus some Auto-Life on Yuna means that it'd be an uphill climb for the P4 team...

[DjinnAndTonic]

Nah... Death+Death would even the playing field a bit, but Souji would stick to Nulling physicals to keep the status at bay. Since Death would kill Souji, and since AFAIK it's ST, this means that the other P4 cast members will gleefully sacrifice themselves to keep it from ever hitting Souji. And since all of -them- have Endure, that's 6 shots of Death (or at least 3 shots of Death + 3 pokes from other FFX PCs, depending on how you'd allow the 'targetting' to take place) before Lulu even hits Souji. And arguably Naoto immunes it.

[Clear Tranquil]

* Clear Tranquil boots FFX cast

* Clear Tranquil boots P4 cast

=-)

[SnowFire]

Djinn: ....good point.

Anyway this closes theoretically tomorrow though I doubt I will have time to get to it and it's the last round anyway.

[DjinnAndTonic]

Ubergodlike
Tidus, Aeonless Yuna, Auron, Kimahri, Wakka (Final Fantasy X) vs. Souji, Yosuke, Chie, Naoto (Persona 4) - Hassou Tobi is only 100% base accuracy.  Modified by LUC, but Souji's isn't exactly special.  I've definitely seen it miss when not buffed.  Yuna's still got good odds of evading this.  I doubt it's enough, since most of the team is dying to it and Yuna can't patch them all up.

Godlike

Heavy
Indalecio (Star Ocean 2) vs. Ryu, Rei, Momo (Breath of Fire III)

Middle

Light
Loki (Valkyrie Profile) vs. Luke, Guy, Tear, Jade (Tales of the Abyss)

Bonus Match
Nega Filgaia (Wild Arms 3) vs. Nyx Avatar (Moonless Gown once-per-battle) (Persona 3) - I don't think Replay was required for that form.  Magic still did damage, but it had very high magic defense.  Though I think only non-elemental magic worked.  Nyx Avatar is lacking almighty in most forms, so that's kind of a problem.

Oh yeah, votes and stuff.

I'd be really interested in seeing this tourney again, though the number of good candidates for this sort of thing feels kind of limited, there's just too many games that have crazy interp split with their team settings. It's really hard to make balanced matches.

One fun Godlike suggestion would be WA3 team with Mediums.

AtL2 team makes an interesting Middle/Heavy team.

MOAR Suiko3 teams~ This time Chris, Geddoe, or Thomas' party. Fills in whatever Heavy/Middle/Light gaps you need.

Scrub battle suggestion: ToS Sheena with a constantly-full Overlimit mode (so she can summon things) vs. AtLC Chongara. SUMMONER BATTLE!!!

DQ4 team w/ Wagon could probably win some matches in Middle/Heavy.

Oh, but we left out the obvious champion-level team from Phantasy Star 2~  LOL Rolf in a team setting ^_^

[Talaysen]

Nah... Death+Death would even the playing field a bit, but Souji would stick to Nulling physicals to keep the status at bay. Since Death would kill Souji, and since AFAIK it's ST, this means that the other P4 cast members will gleefully sacrifice themselves to keep it from ever hitting Souji. And since all of -them- have Endure, that's 6 shots of Death (or at least 3 shots of Death + 3 pokes from other FFX PCs, depending on how you'd allow the 'targetting' to take place) before Lulu even hits Souji. And arguably Naoto immunes it.

P4 PCs can only guard Souji once per battle, so it's 3 shots of Death regardless, not 6.

Not that it matters.

[SnowFire]

Yeah, my original thought was to go just FFX vs. P4, but toned it down a bit for sanity.  Seems FFX got toned down too much, though who knows, maybe doublecast Ultima hype would taken it with the fullteam. At least the other matches were good!  Though the blathering self-hyping "Why do you resist when you know I am unstoppable because I said so" Nyx failed it up against the power of evil inverse planets.

Ubergodlike
Tidus, Aeonless Yuna, Auron, Kimahri, Wakka (Final Fantasy X) vs. Souji, Yosuke, Chie, Naoto (Persona 4) (Lots-Rozalia)

Heavy
Indalecio (Star Ocean 2) vs. Ryu, Rei, Momo (Breath of Fire III) (2-2), tie

Light
Loki (Valkyrie Profile) vs. Luke, Guy, Tear, Jade (Tales of the Abyss) (4-3)

Bonus Match
Nega Filgaia (Wild Arms 3) vs. Nyx Avatar (Moonless Gown once-per-battle) (Persona 3) (3-0)

So...  results!


---
Brahman (Digital Devil Saga) vs. Guv, Yangus, Jessica, Angelo (Dragon Quest VIII) (5-0)
Brahman (Digital Devil Saga) vs. Vayne, Jessica, Nikki, Flay, Pamela, Anna (Mana Khemia) (3-2)
Guv, Yangus, Jessica, Angelo (Dragon Quest VIII) vs. Vayne, Jessica, Nikki, Flay, Pamela, Anna (Mana Khemia) (4-4) (Meeple tiebreak)

Ulrika, Chloe, Pepperoni, Goto, Enna (Mana Khemia 2) vs. Indalecio (Star Ocean 2) (3-0)
Ulrika, Chloe, Pepperoni, Goto, Enna (Mana Khemia 2) vs. Ryu, Rei, Momo (Breath of Fire III) (3-0)
Indalecio (Star Ocean 2) vs. Ryu, Rei, Momo (Breath of Fire III) (2-2), tie

Xorn (Grandia III) vs. Ramza, Agrias, Mustadio, Orlandu, Meliadoul (Final Fantasy Tactics) (4-2)

Pikachu, Charizard, Blastoise, Venusaur, Snorlax, Espeon (Pokemon) vs. Loki (Valkyrie Profile) (3-2)
Luke, Guy, Tear, Jade (Tales of the Abyss) vs. Pikachu, Charizard, Blastoise, Venusaur, Snorlax, Espeon (Pokemon) (3-2)
Loki (Valkyrie Profile) vs. Luke, Guy, Tear, Jade (Tales of the Abyss) (4-3)
---
Brahman wins Godlike by tiebreak of margin of victory!
Ryu, Rei, and Momo win Heavy since Indalecio is thrown out with a 0-1-1 record in the final set, and they beat the Mana Khemia 2 team!  (Would still have won even if Indalecio had won, just on tiebreaks then.  Unless Indalecio had won by 3 or more votes.)
Ramza, Agrias, Mustadio, Orlandu, Meliadoul win Middle by defeating Xorn in the finals!
Loki wins Light with a 2-0 record in the final round robin!

Well, I thought it was fun.  Amusing that Loki and Ryu both took round 1 victories before clawing their way back.  In retrospect, while Loki's not really a good Middle, his Extension Force / Carnage Anthem backup game was better than I recalled, so yeah, not overly surprising he took Light.  Ramza definitely gets the surprise award, I was not expecting his team to do as well as it did, but that's FFT for you.  Also I am very glad that the Mana Khemia 1 team was moved to Godlike rather than Heavy, as with a different tiebreak system they would have won Godlike!  A nice performance regardless.

I'm thinking that for next time, rather than final bosses, we do henchmen instead.  So Dhoulmagus, Kornell/Violetta, the FF4 Elementals, that kinda stuff.  Reason is that the number of final bosses who qualify for Godlike - and even Heavy - is actually fairly small, considering that a lot get thrown out for being complete interp headaches or being too swingy/spoilery (Unscaled FF12 Vayne, for example, wins damn near any slugfest against a boss yet gets soloed by Lilka).  Henchmen at least allow for more team-ups since any team can be made Godlike by adding enough support...  though on the downside the matches get more difficult to vote on (at least team vs. a single boss tends to be simple).  Not sure there's a good way around that.  At least there are still plenty more hero-teams to be made!