Author Topic: Twinfighting (Read 3221 times)

Pyro · « **on:** February 13, 2010, 06:22:46 PM »

Since there is no weekly topic...

Palom and Porom (FF4) vs. Parry and Madchen (DQ5)

Scar · « **Reply #1 on:** February 13, 2010, 07:34:56 PM »

Do Sabin and Edgar count as twins?

Jo'ou Ranbu · « **Reply #2 on:** February 13, 2010, 07:38:08 PM »

Sure. They don't count as little girl twins unless you're particularly insane, though.

Scar · « **Reply #3 on:** February 13, 2010, 07:39:47 PM »

Ok then, new match idea!

Sabin and Edgar vs Mary Kate and Ashley Olsen

Make it HAPPEN!

Meeplelard · « **Reply #4 on:** February 13, 2010, 08:03:18 PM »

You fail to see the point, Scar...

Sabin and Edgar are twins...but they're also adults.

Porom and Palom are 5 years old, Parry and Madchen are 8 years old. IOWs, they're not just twins, they're young elementary school (if that) children who helped save the world!

Edgar and Sabin are also not totally fucking stupid conceptually, showing that "Hey, Twins don't have to do everything together!" and what not (plus they have too much character and personality compared to the 4 characters here <.<) Ok, I guess Parry/Madchen are justified for a number of reasons, as the game doesn't pretend BEST MAGES EVAR!!! despite their age.

That said, I'd kneejerk Porom/Palom based off FF4a. They're both good at speed there, IIRC, and FF4 status should gun down at least the Daughter, if not both, or they can just focus all their damage to one. I think it doesn't help that Son's best damage is Lightning based, which both resist, and Daughter's is Fire based, which at Porom at very least resist (I think Palom misses fire?)

Scar · « **Reply #5 on:** February 13, 2010, 08:25:26 PM »

The figaros can square off against the older, crack-head versions of the Olsen twins!

For comical justice!

superaielman · « **Reply #6 on:** February 13, 2010, 09:04:32 PM »

Depends entirely on Parry and Madchen's speed for me. It's not a bad fight, just really, really short.

hinode · « **Reply #7 on:** February 13, 2010, 09:17:40 PM »

Parry is a bit below average, Madchen is gamebest or close to it.

Pyro · « **Reply #8 on:** February 13, 2010, 10:14:11 PM »

Elfin charm reduces status rates, so I'm pretty sure I see Madchen and Parry taking this. Especially with Bounce in play.

SnowFire · « **Reply #9 on:** February 14, 2010, 03:30:02 AM »

Parry getting a turn is gg thanks to the Zenithinian Shield, and I always felt that FF4 status rates are somewhat overhyped. Inclined to use FF4o, too, which has pretty bad HP, and Madchen can probably have a MT 2HKO here, though admittedly she also has to tank the status. Elfin Charms are storebought and pretty decent, so yeah, leaning DQ5. But good fight.

If DQV takes on the Figaro twins though think it's a bit uglier. Even with Elfin Charm hype Noiseblaster is 100% by default and I don't think an Oomphed Parry OHKOs Edgar even ignoring Edgar's block. Even if Edgar was eventually taken down Sabin can revive and fullheal Edgar, and when he's not he's unleashing Air Slashes and Bum Rushes to keep the pressure on.

BaconForTheSoul · « **Reply #10 on:** February 14, 2010, 09:02:38 AM »

Mary Kate and Ashley easily beat Sabin and Edgar.

Edgar would bang any female that moves... twins are an absolute must. They simply tell Edgar to take out Sabin and they're his. So now this comes down to Edgar v Sabin. Edgar busts out Chainsaw and wins! MK and Ashley then tie Edgar up (assuming he's into that) and put a dagger in his heart.

Rozalia · « **Reply #11 on:** February 14, 2010, 10:10:52 AM »

One problem with that, Sabin eats Chainsaws for breakfast. Edgar and the twins get suplexed and pinned for the 1-2-3 because any match involving sabin MUST be a wrestling match.
*Insert mandatory "He's broken in half" comment*

Pyro · « **Reply #12 on:** February 14, 2010, 03:31:28 PM »

Sabin + Edgar vs. Madchen + Parry isn't very fair.

Sabin + Edgar vs. Eirika + Ephraim.

There ya go.

superaielman · « **Reply #13 on:** February 14, 2010, 03:33:30 PM »

Sabin/Edgar vs the FE8 siblings comes down to them one rounding Edgar and picking apart Sabin, no? WAIT NO SABIN CLEARLY USES HIS REVIVAL SKILL TO SAVE THE DAY

DjinnAndTonic · « **Reply #14 on:** February 15, 2010, 04:40:26 AM »

Figaro Siblings vs. Pegasus Sisters?

I mean, there's 3 of them and Triangle Attack is nasty...

B-but Autocrossbow and Sabin's Air elemental Blitz hit weakness!

SnowFire · « **Reply #15 on:** February 15, 2010, 05:11:00 AM »

Yeah, sounds bad for Pegasus Sisters. Air Blade would OHKO all of them, Noiseblaster also ruins them, they can't kill both in time.... though on second thought Noiseblaster is slightly interp-possible, if one sister wakes up another, then maybe that sister could finish off Edgar? Not how it works in FE, but whatever, they aren't twins anyway.

Basch & Gabranth qualify too, though figuring out what the hell with Basch is tricky. Off the top of my head Parry / Madchen murder them with a buffing game, and the FF4 twins... depends on twins damage respect. Gabranth's offense is horrible but he's got okay HP and I think has a chance of getting a long combo? If Palom / Porom are too slow with the damage they might theoretically sneak a win here since Basch can hopefully keep Porom healing-locked while Palom's the only damage-dealer. Then again I think Gabranth's combo chances only go up at low health (by which time Basch will be dead or Frogged) so maybe not.

BaconForTheSoul · « **Reply #16 on:** February 15, 2010, 12:18:17 PM »

At 20/15 Ephraim is slightly quicker than Sabin. As in 1.09% cast average to 1.07%. Not sure if Sabin has anything that he could equip to change this at the expense of defense.

Eirika doubles Edgar
Ephraim hits Edgar
One of the 3 hits should crit... and 5 hits should drop Edgar easily enough.

If Sabin can fix his speed then Mantra could actually become relevant.
Eirika doubles Edgar
Sabin heals
Ephraim can't kill.

Eirika could probably kill with a crit+hit anyway... so it depends on if you see her second turn critting Edgar. If Edgar does get a turn... it's noise blaster ahoy! I'd kneejerk and say Eirika/Ephraim win this.

Oddly enough, the Pegasus sisters probably win as well. They're all faster than Sabin and 2 of them probably double Edgar. Edgar dies, and Sabin can airblade for 4x damage, but airblade blows. Even 4xed it'd only do 6800ish to a 9000 kill point. I don't think Edgar's epic physical counters would do 2200, even to the defense of the Peg knights... although it's possible it'd word on Florina, which would lead to her death and give Sabin a chance to win it.

Both end up being pretty good matches though.

Dark Holy Elf · « **Reply #17 on:** February 16, 2010, 07:42:30 AM »

Quote

Air Blade would OHKO all of them

Not even close! Go look where Air Blade falls on the endgame damage curve. Never mind that FE7 pegs aren't weak to wind (Excalibur, and Fimbulvetr if you want to argue that is Wind) anyway.

Noiseblaster is pretty bad news, though yeah, the unconfuse thing does happen in FF6 so I'd certainly see it happening here.

DjinnAndTonic · « **Reply #18 on:** February 16, 2010, 07:55:59 AM »

If a Pegasus Knight is FF6-Confused, does she hit herself? And if she -does- hit herself, can she Double? I mean, depending on your interp of FE speed and AS... Peg Knights could be Average Speed but regularly double most opponents, so when Confused, she would take her turn at Average Speed, but Double herself. In theory anyway.

Dark Holy Elf · « **Reply #19 on:** February 16, 2010, 08:04:09 AM »

If a FE character self-targets they would definitely use FE rules for doubling, and you don't double someone with the same speed as you, which includes yourself. I hope everyone uses FE AS for doubling in FE-FE matches whether or not they take the "other casts are average AS" view. Matthew and Guy do not both double each other or anything similarly nonsenical.

Meeplelard · « **Reply #20 on:** February 16, 2010, 02:45:09 PM »

High Speed has the purpose of not just allowing you to double, but also allowing you to AVOID doubles.

I mean, yes, both Nergal and Eliwood don't really double much, so in that regard, their speed difference is negligible...FOR OFFENSIVE PURPOSES. At this point, AS goes from an Offensive stat to a Defensive one. Eliwood can avoid doubles from a fair amount of enemies since his speed is average; it takes a genuinely fast guy to double him, much like it takes a genuinely slow guy for him to double them. So he's not really at any major disadvantages defensively.

Nergal, meanwhile, gets doubled by nearly everything and their turtle (I'd say Dog, but dogs are often fast, so its not fair <.<), which is why his Low AS matters.

IOWs, people need to stop equating AS to simply "DO YOU DOUBLE?!" as "DO YOU GET DOUBLED!?" is equally important. The latter just doesn't come up for fast characters for obvious reasons, and the former for slow characters. For this reason, the idea of Florina doubling herself is ridiculous.

DjinnAndTonic · « **Reply #21 on:** February 17, 2010, 12:48:09 AM »

Quote from: Dark Holy Elf on February 16, 2010, 08:04:09 AM

If a FE character self-targets they would definitely use FE rules for doubling, and you don't double someone with the same speed as you, which includes yourself. I hope everyone uses FE AS for doubling in FE-FE matches whether or not they take the "other casts are average AS" view. Matthew and Guy do not both double each other or anything similarly nonsenical.

Well, I understand what you're saying. It makes a certain amount of sense to compare PCs from the same game directly. However, what about something like Matthew vs. Colm? FE7 stats are generally lower than FE8 stats, so a direct comparison is skewed in Colm's favor.

Where do you draw the lines between 'Doubles everything' 'Doesn't double or get doubled' and 'Doubled by everything' ?

Meeplelard · « **Reply #22 on:** February 17, 2010, 04:57:31 AM »

Its simple...

You compare them to their respective averages.

For example, when we were comparing Fire Emblem Lords, Tibarn was banned cause he's too good, despite falling under the technical definition (Leader of an Army w/ a Unique Job.) The person I was discussing this said Lyn may stand a chance a since she'd avoid a doubling and has bows to nail Tibarn's 3x weakness, I said that wasn't necessarily the case, we compared and Tibarn does indeed Double Lyn. naturally, we weren't going "Tibarn is 40 FE Speed, Lyn is 29 FE speed!" or whatever; that's just silly! We did it more like this:

Tibarn is 11 Points above average speed relative to his game. Lyn is 7 points above average speed relative to her game. 11 - 7 = 4. You need 4 points to double in an FE game, therefor, Tibarn doubles Lyn.

Eirika, meanwhile, barely avoids a double, being 8 points above Average, thus only 3 below Tibarn. However, she still loses cause while Siegliende hits a weakness, she can't avoid counters the way Lyn could, and that weapon lowers her speed below the threshold.

So yeah, raw speed doesn't matter, its still relative speed. You just simply do Character's Speed vs. their respective average, then compare the two. So a +4 AS speed doubles a perfectly average FE character, even if their numeric speed is identical (this matters mostly for FE10 vs. FE6-9)

DjinnAndTonic · « **Reply #23 on:** February 17, 2010, 06:31:30 AM »

But doesn't even that +4 threshhold need to be averaged by game as well?

Tibarn may be 11 points above average AS, but if more people in his game are doubling average, then shouldn't the other FE games' lower AS average be taken into account when you're figuring out their AS as -defense- against being doubled?

Weird things like this are the reason that I've mostly just been viewing AS as 'Do they double? yes/no'. FE speed rules are pretty headachey and I'm almost to the point where I'm just going to start treating AS as standard speed and doubling happens CTB-style.

Dhyerwolf · « **Reply #24 on:** February 17, 2010, 08:27:13 AM »

I don't really understand Djinn's post, but not sure I'd see Tibarn doubling Lyn because he needing an extra 20 levels to get to that extra +4 threshold of 11 over her. So just for example if they were both the top of pack in their home games, it would seem reasonable that they'd be seen as about equal. Edited in: Need to be less lazy about getting the numbers for percentage of doubled/doubled by against in game enemies since I theoretically take it against that anyways.

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Author Topic: Twinfighting (Read 3221 times)