Twinfighting

[Talaysen]

But doesn't even that +4 threshhold need to be averaged by game as well?

Tibarn may be 11 points above average AS, but if more people in his game are doubling average, then shouldn't the other FE games' lower AS average be taken into account when you're figuring out their AS as -defense- against being doubled?

Nah.  It doesn't work linearly like CTB speed.  In a loose sense, it's exponential, so the difference between values is what matters, not the ratio.

Someone who is +4 doubles average.  This is completely independent of what the average is.  If it's 1 or 251, it doesn't matter.  Someone who is 4 above will double someone who is average.  Period.

This is different when you have CTB speed, where comparing to 1 or 251 gives you speeds of 500% and 102% respectively.

Weird things like this are the reason that I've mostly just been viewing AS as 'Do they double? yes/no'. FE speed rules are pretty headachey and I'm almost to the point where I'm just going to start treating AS as standard speed and doubling happens CTB-style.

The problem I generally see with this is that it makes that line between +3.99999999 and +4 (or 3.49999999 and 3.5 if you round) really really really important, when it's not that big of a deal in-game because enemies often have differing AS values.  I mean, I can see the argument, and it makes intuitive sense, but it... really overemphasizes that 0.0000001 way too much.

And as mentioned before FE characters actually have AS values to compare, so FE vs. FE matches will use them.  Makes no sense to throw them out there.

[Meeplelard]

EDIT:  This entire post refers mostly to FE vs. FE, specifically FE6 and after (where the +4 speed = double convention is used.)  The idea of AS vs. games without AS is to be ignored here since that's a totally different argument altogether.

But doesn't even that +4 threshhold need to be averaged by game as well?

What?  Doubling occurs when you're 4 points above average.  Tibarn is 40 speed to a 29 average; that's 11 points above average.  Lyn is, randomly, 28 speed to a 21 average; that's 7 points above average.  Therefor, FE7 21 Speed is equivalent to FE10 29 Speed.  This isn't a hard concept.  Its like how we do ANY speed averaging.  CT's 11 Average speed or whatever is equivalent to FF6's 35~ average speed, why can't we apply the same logic to FEs?

Tibarn may be 11 points above average AS, but if more people in his game are doubling average, then shouldn't the other FE games' lower AS average be taken into account when you're figuring out their AS as -defense- against being doubled?

First off, the reason more people double average in FE10 is cause its cast is much bigger than your standard FE.  Secondly, I have no clue what you're actually saying here.  What's this "lower AS" thing matter?  If a character is 4 points below their average AS, they are doubled.

Lyon has 0 FE8 speed, he gets doubled by damn near everything under the sun, even Nergal.  If FE8's average speed was only 3, then yeah, that 0 wouldn't seem as bad as Nergal's 14 or whatever, but FE8's average is in the 20s, so Lyon's ludicrously slow.
Flipside, Ike of FE10 has like 31 speed, faster than anyone prior in the series numerically outside of FE9 Naesala.  Thing is? FE10's average is 29...so he's only 2 points above average.  Thereby, he doesn't really double anything.

Weird things like this are the reason that I've mostly just been viewing AS as 'Do they double? yes/no'. FE speed rules are pretty headachey and I'm almost to the point where I'm just going to start treating AS as standard speed and doubling happens CTB-style.

There's really nothing hard about this to understand.  Games have different average speeds, as I noted above, FE AS is no different.  You have to find a way to make them compatible; FE7 does not have the same stat scale as FE8 (though, the two are close, I'm aware), which isn't the same as FE9, and all of them look nothing like FE10 and its stat scale which is much higher.  Given FE games don't give a shit about %, and its all about raw addition and subtraction, its easy to make an adjustment.

Just do the following formula to figure out whether FE characters double:
Character's Speed - Average Speed of their HOME game.  The enemies game is totally irrelevant.
Do this with both characters, then compare the two characters.  Note the above value CAN be negative; that just means how far below average you are.

So FE10 Tibarn would have a score of "+11."  FE7 Lyn would have a score of "+7."  Eirika without her legendary is "+8".  Nergal is "-10" or something really fail like that.  FE9 Ike is "+4" (for sake of argument, I'm rounding up)  Roy would have like a score of "+2 AS."

So Tibarn doubles everything in that list but Eirika.
Eirika doubles Ike, Roy and Nergal, but not Lyn, avoids getting doubled by Tibarn.  
Lyn gets doubled by Tibarn, avoids getting doubled by Eirika, fails to double Ike, doubles Roy and Nergal no problem.
Ike doubles Nergal only, avoids being doubled by Lyn, gets doubled by Tibarn and Eirika.
Roy doubles no one but Nergal, and avoids getting doubled by no one but Ike.
Nergal sucks and is doubled by everyone!

Do you understand?  Its a simple case of converting AS from their raw values into a +/- value relative to their respective averages.  Just going "Do they double y/n?" isn't fair.  Why should Florina double Fiora, when in game, when she faces an enemy of equivalent AS, she would fail miserably?  Its giving an unfair advantage to fast FE characters and slow ones to go "Do they double y/n?"
As we can see in the above list, while Ike and Eirika would both double average, if the two square off, Eirika should be doubling Ike under cause she's still got +4 Speed on him despite Ike's already impressive value.

[DjinnAndTonic]

But doesn't even that +4 threshhold need to be averaged by game as well?

Tibarn may be 11 points above average AS, but if more people in his game are doubling average, then shouldn't the other FE games' lower AS average be taken into account when you're figuring out their AS as -defense- against being doubled?

Nah.  It doesn't work linearly like CTB speed.  In a loose sense, it's exponential, so the difference between values is what matters, not the ratio.

Someone who is +4 doubles average.  This is completely independent of what the average is.  If it's 1 or 251, it doesn't matter.  Someone who is 4 above will double someone who is average.  Period.

This is different when you have CTB speed, where comparing to 1 or 251 gives you speeds of 500% and 102% respectively.

Okay, I understand what you're saying, but I think there's still some flaws, but perhaps my math is just off here.

Let's take the main character of a hypothetical non-FE game that has some kind of reasonable analog to AS. Only, instead of values in the 20s and 30s, we have values in the 500s or so. Jake McMainster of Theoretical game A here has an AS that is 40 points above average, but it takes a 50-point advantage to double something, so he'd only be doubling less-than-average AS enemies. Compared to an FE character though, he doubles everyone by their 4-point doubling rules. Obviously this is representative. How would you compensate for the difference?

This is what I was getting at as being confusing, though now that I've thought out a clearer example, the solution looks less troublesome than my initial impression. Didn't need the patronizing Meeple-lecture either, thanks.

[Meeplelard]

Are you asking what happens when 2 clearly different speed systems come up against each other, what happens?  That...is a case by case basis.

In all FEs starting from 6 and after, 4 points = doubling.  This has yet to change; even the DS remake of FE1 changed the 1 point convention to 4 points.  So likewise, they're completely compatible.  Its like CTB vs. CTB, basically, or heck, any system that allows for Double Turns, at least on a technical level (so ATB, Grandia's System, etc. all would qualify.)  The only difference is that we're comparing raw differences instead of % values, but that's just how things work out based on the two different samples, cause FE cares about raw differences, not the %, while traditional speed systems are the other way around.

Considering they're completely compatible, there's really no reason to worry about that.

Earlier FEs vs. Modern ones? A little tougher, that'd be Attacker vs. Defender definition scenario. 

Due to FE4, though, I'm inclined to go off Attacker's Definition cause its an aspect of the Pursuit skill here pretty much attributes that doubling is a trait of the attacker, not the defender.  This is just for following rules though; I let FE characters get doubled in the DL, cause it reflects that penalty in game, at least for modern FEs.  FE4, there's a clear restriction on doubling in regards to whether you have Pursuit or Not, so that's a little different.  FE6 and after, anyone with -4 AS vs. an enemy was obviously at a huge durability disadvantage, and similarly, faster characters had a considerable offensive advantage, so this better reflects that.


Its really no different than Incompatible weapon Triangles, where there are a variety of views.  I've heard ones like "Average out the Weapon Triangles!" and what not. Personally, I just go with a view where only the Offensive benefits of Weapon Triangle exist, by which I mean if Lyn were to attack Kongol, Lyn would get a Hit and Damage boost, but Kongol would be completely ineffected.  This makes the translating between 2 incompatible weapon triangles easy, since the FE character has no impact on the other character; they just get a stat boost/penalty to themselves.

[Talaysen]

Okay, I understand what you're saying, but I think there's still some flaws, but perhaps my math is just off here.

Let's take the main character of a hypothetical non-FE game that has some kind of reasonable analog to AS. Only, instead of values in the 20s and 30s, we have values in the 500s or so. Jake McMainster of Theoretical game A here has an AS that is 40 points above average, but it takes a 50-point advantage to double something, so he'd only be doubling less-than-average AS enemies. Compared to an FE character though, he doubles everyone by their 4-point doubling rules. Obviously this is representative. How would you compensate for the difference?

This is what I was getting at as being confusing, though now that I've thought out a clearer example, the solution looks less troublesome than my initial impression. Didn't need the patronizing Meeple-lecture either, thanks.

+40 when it takes 50 to double is like +3.2 when it takes 4 to double.  If the difference needed is different, THEN you have to scale it.  But when FE games are compared, the difference is always 4, so you don't need to scale.

The "flaws" only come up if you assume this +4 is absolute over every theoretical game, instead of just due to the fact all (relevant) FEs use it.