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Author Topic: <Untitled IAQ Project>: Round 5: Plot Revisit (Let's start putting it together.)  (Read 14441 times)

AndrewRogue

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More rambling.

-On Timelines and Maps and On My
Should work on these somewhat. Not overly critical, but they do help with some conceptual matters. Have some rough stuff laying around.

-On Ei
Its getting cleaned up, but she's still a little too "Mirek Love Interest" (which is unshocking, given their origins) but come on. I'm better than this. Its improving though. Honestly, part of it is that she and Mirek come from similar problems, just slightly different methodologies. They both really have no one of note in their lives, and both really need someone they can rely on. For her, Mirek proves an odd and rock who doesn't exploit/abandon her and impresses her and... well, she's a young gal. She probably deals a lot with growing up, nature of relying on people and her own power/independence. As the most normal in the group by a ridiculous margin, as well as if we stick with Gier as Daddy, it goes relatively without saying that power/helplessness/standing up for yourself/doing what you can is all pretty integral to her character and works well with her thematics.

-On Mirek
Generally reviewing him after realizing I did a similar character a while back. Taking a look at what I learned.

-On Kasia
-Why does she crush on Noemi anyway? Childhood thing that just sort of matured oddly makes sense to me. Part of Noemi's thing IS that she is highly charismatic and inspirational, hence she manages to sweep up all these PCs in her wake.

DjinnAndTonic

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Now it is rambling time

Yay, I love Andy rambles!

Quote
-On Tiercek
Haven't talked about him much. Not sure I need to. His motivations are pretty simple and straightforward. If we account for some of the above (notably that stricter dissonant regulations are more recent...) then he has more motivation if we put him on the more aged end, which was the intent anway. Keep in mind the Guardians likely have some support from variable sources as well. Honestly, is it shocking that a guy whose life and organization are devoted to creating some stupid middle class and economic stuff (essentially) would be a little bitter about the whole thing and start resenting the system? Someone whose bretheren regularly die doing this stuff so you can enjoy a first practitioner forsaken sandwich? Seriously, you bastards ought be worshipping these people. *grumble*

Good to see him formally talked about, and this was basically my impression of him, too.

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-On Erastus
It hasn't been talked a lot about on his villainous motivation, except that its pretty much there the entire time and also largely stems from disillusionment and bitterness, but if you think about it, it plays well into the above. The wheel turns, the past repeats... Erastus has fought against this shit before. he's been in the middle of this shit before, he's seen it beaten, he's seen the toll... and he's seen it come back again. Yeah, its all well and good you guys ended up being big damn heroes for whatever reason. What about next time it happens? Or the time after? A magic cure all? Har har, how long until THAT gets abused? Protecting the Empire? An Empire that has nearly collapsed how many times now and has an ungrateful nobility barely supporting it? Bet that lasts a while. PFT a love interest. Had one, had kids, bought the t-shirt, then she died. Its well and good making someone else one of your top reasons for fighting, but when some random dude knifes her, you're gonna be standing right here delivering this same damn speech. Erastus is despair, plain and simple. He can see the good, but he also knows the bad is just coming to come right back around. Hence why he wants to try again with people he thinks both understand and are decent folks. He's oddly a deconstruction of the whole genre, calling into question all the motivations and justifications and triumphs with a simple call of "Well and good, but you do realize its going to get fucked right up again, right?" The game ends forcing the PC to question whether it was worth it at all. Its actually kinda distressingly heavy. Kinda wonder if its too much.

I don't think it's too much, I rather like the serious tone you have going with him, especially...

Quote
Really, he's a cute mirror to Tiercek and Gier who believe they can make things right. Erastus actually kinda agrees. You can win against tremendous odds. It'll just all go to hell again.

This just sounds cool.

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-On Isolde
Military high commander should be her father. Why? Because.
Don't really feel strongly about this, but my kneejerk was against it.

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-On the perfect magic form
Did you know its weaker then normal dissonance and be notably more complicated? Cost of not having backlash. Civilization will still need to adapt.

You know, it would have really helped me to understand the plot more had I known this sooner. It makes the Perfect Form seem a lot less like Deus ex Machina with this little tidbit.

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-On Sigils
That covers all of it. I was calling it 'Soul Sense' for lack of a better term and because it ties in with the Soulless.

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-On Claire
Gier killed her sister. That is all. Or kills her. I dunno. That plotline needs to be figured or ignored.

If you want to keep with the slightly depressing theme, you could really play up the 'twin connection' thing that's so overused in games like this. Claire could very much be searching with the attitude of 'I know she's alive. We're twins, I'd know if she died."

And then it turns out that Gier killed her before the game even started. That'd be a really mean subversion of the trope, but that's why I like it.

074

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Okay, some commentary on the outline updates.  I admittedly have a couple of beefs here, some which were somewhat addressed in chat.  But given that you said you'd forget, I might as well bring them up here.

Problem 01: Pushback of Selena fight, and the immediate recruitment issue.

Selena's second fight was placed during the Island escape sequence initially.  This, I feel, was a good idea for varying reasons.  Amongst other, this seemed like a good point to bring that subplot to a climax (and deal with the aftereffects of handling it badly there).  She would then, if she survived, be recruitable if you took the right plot options later on after the timeskip.  It also wouldn't make it immediately obvious that she'd be recruitable at that point, with the way I see it.  It's a matter of timing, for one.
The next reason: Second fight with her, she's ideally using a strong flow amplifier (with a potentially fatal drawback).  The idea would be that she's up against whatever party Isolde would be head of that was split off after the UIM was obtained, out of the eyes of superiors (and her mercenary followers would have said variants of "Screw this, I'm taking the advance and .  The big reason why the second fight with her before the timeskip, but recruitment after: She would need time to deal with the shock of having lost even at what would be her strongest.  The fact that revenge is apparently just not possible.  The fact that this is a fight she just can't win.  The hatred stays, but the logic sets in.
Reason the third, and one that if ignored would be open to some -serious- fridge logic.  Why would she join up with her 'enemy' right after trying to kill her again?  Why would Isolde -consider- such a thing right then and there?  It'd sound like a bad judgment call to me.  Not exactly a victory for pragmatism there.  The timeskip gives things time to cool down if Selena lives through the second fight.  I wouldn't see another attempt to kill her there, though.  Seems to me more like it'd be a somewhat out of the way thing, there.  Somehow seeing the recruitment occurring in a bar--if, of course, you appeal to pragmatism and logic accepting that you're not going to make her hate you less instead of trying to mend things over.


Problem 02: Apparent removal of segments and ignorance of antagonists

It seems like things were unusually shortened--at the request of others.  I understand that this is partly due to the outline being just that; an outline.  At the same time, however, it feels like some things were shortened a bit too much.   I'll go over a few spots that gave me a bit of irritation and what I could see doing there.

First Practitioner's Island: Aside from the second Selena fight being pushed back (This was just covered, and I have no intention of going back over this), the island was originally going to be set up as a fake endgame.  It was originally seen that it would potentially be a split-party dungeon, with a significant boss from the losing faction on each path (or a chain of such bosses if there's a lack of split-party).  Splitting's easy enough to justify (detection), and I imagine that even if they docked on a different section from the Imperial and Guardian ships, there'd be some crossover of paths.  Plus shortening the escape sequence, well...aside from the issues above, feels like Isolde's underlings would follow to help her rather than just leave with Noemi. (Okay, Faulheit might be tempted to leave with Noemi, but Katarine is pushy).  I guess it just feels a bit too 'convenient', so to speak.

Missing people: None of the subordinates aside from Josef and Orienna are mentioned.  I'm not sure if this was intentional or just a side-effect of the outline format.  Cutting characters is the last thing I want to occur, though, especially since we need named subordinates that don't do something like show up for one chapter just to be killed off in the same chapter before anything like meaningful characterisation can occur.  I'm looking at you, Fire Emblem.

Shortened Campaign: The campaign against Tiercek (from start to Tiercek's death) feels too short.  I more imagined it as earlier described; four separate missions to differing areas for party members; more overt military-style ones for Isolde and Yiu, and covert stuff for Noemi and Mirek.  Possibly with selectable parties for those, and a relevant significant antagonist as boss there.  After that, then a fortress/capital raid (Split-party dungeon pulling out the stops.  We're going after the BBEG, we might as well make this sequence as impressive as possible.  We can put nameless midbosses here.) culminating in the fight against the BBEG (In this case, Tiercek).  The stuff afterward is fine.  I just want a bit longer of a campaign here, so to speak.  I know I'm asking for something that goes against the request to shorten it, but this feels a bit too short as-is.

Also, I have a bit of an idea on how the Gier fight on the Guardian path should go down.  It is viable to have him be fought alone


That aside, a bit of commentary and an idea.

Not seeing the High Commander being her father.  That feels a bit...eh.  Perhaps having a relative on the council (We do need to fill those guys out, after all!), but not the High Commander.  It makes the level of trust in her ability feel a bit more significant if the High Commander isn't directly related by blood to her, after all.

Gier having killed Claire's sister: Thought we were trashing that storyline.  But if not, that would be a nasty way to have that subplot end in a downer

Isolde and Selena, regardless of how they are now, were at one point friends of a sort.  If Selena does die, I can see Isolde taking some kind of memento if she does die during the second fight (Possibly the amplifier[likely burnt out at this point, just to keep it from being directly usable], making it an accessory specific to her at that point).  Just an odd thought, not necessary, and a more silent way of mourning.

Other thoughts on Isolde: She's the type who internalizes a lot.  That much is readily apparent.  It would make a good point that, at some point, she likely would have to release her suppressed anger and frustration at some point.  I'm not sure when, but it's something that would probably be seen looming ahead; it would happen, the question is just when and how.
<+Nama-EmblemOfFire> ...Have the GhebFE guy and the ostian princess guy collaborate.
 <@Elecman> Seems reasonable.

AndrewRogue

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-The Twelve God Kingdoms
Need to be better integrated, ala the nobility and crumbling empire thing. It gets an earlier section (wherein the cast goes and visits the TGK), and, like the nobility, probably feature more prominently into the variable arc, since Yiu has to interact heavily with them either way. We don't have to do too much with them (compared to the nobility, at least), but we still need to do a little more.

-Yiu's Crew
Is actually surprisingly okay. Their quirky characterization needs to be a bit better explored, but otherwise they aren't too critical. Them and Yiu are probably the most unit-ish group outside of Mirek's.

-Artur, again
More seriously though, I think his positioning needs to be a little less... hrm... kind? Not to say he needs to be cruel or anything, but more insensitive/less generally useful to Ei. I really dun feel like playing up a real love triangle, so she needs a reason to lack romantic interest in him. Which, glancing back at my own notes, means he's just not the sort of dude you can count on as a rock or reaching out or supporting you. Not saying we must make him an absolute, unlikable bastard... just play up what he really qualifies as: a spoiled high school athlete. He does good things, he's clever, he knows how to help out and he's used to getting his own way. To all outside eyes, he looks like a helpful guy and just gets naturally rewarded. When you're in-deep, you see that its all for the greater self-interest. Negligent parents who still treated him decently (I doubt Rafael is particularly poor) spawn this sort of thing. Playing down the Ei thing is probably better, since the nature of their relationship is more about how people grow from that stuff. Not to say it shouldn't do some normal dramaz to some degree, but hey. Honestly though, pretty much fully justifies everything that he does and puts him in a unique position in the group (doing it to be a hero and all that comes with that). I imagine during the early arcs he's a decent source of information and helps out certain PC groups a fair amount, generally cementing his position as occasionally off-putting, but useful and likable. His relationship with his parents, on the whole, is undoubtedly pretty strained, and I have to imagine there is some disappointment on Rafael's end that his son came out this way. Hence why I think the Mirek dialogue branches should chain into Rafael and Artur chatting it up. Honestly, that relationship needs some talking about anyway. I don't really purport them being too much in contact, but ehhhhh.

-On Josef
Needs to actually look a friend to Mirek and prove it at some point. Should really just play up the fact that he was frustrated by the way he and the other loyal Guardians were treated. He's probably from one of the other plantations too, to emphasize that Guardians did network it up. Guardian victory, he's probably instrumental in Mirek not dying (we'll call it his heel-face turn), Imperial path... I 'unno. Still trying to mentally work that one out. Actually, I guess since he was another talent with a powerful shroud ala Mirek, he could be Gier and co successfully navigate the island on that path (since, presumably, on the Guardian path, they don't do so hot at).

-On Gier
Ho hrm, Ei/Gier plot is probably only really strong in the Imperial path. On the Guardian path, its likely more about the military PC's relationship with him. The more differences in the paths, the better to some degree. Don't want to leave any dangling loose ends, but things should resolve along different lines.

-On Isolde and Aurel
Did people still want some generalized romantic plot here? I don't think its a terrible idea and it definitely helps some PC relations, but I'm not sure exactly how squicky people find nearing double digit age difference relationships. Its an interesting choice and does add a fair amount  to their characters, especially if it goes to say that it was an amicable split due to their own priorities being in the same place... with the Empire and her people. Also adds one to the variable relationship checklist we've got going. Make Rafael a divorcee and we've actually caught all of them, I think.

DjinnAndTonic

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-Artur, again
Generally prefer him to be likable, even if that means you may have to deal with a genuine love triangle. Also, I would support him actually having two parents, and perhaps an over-attentive mother, which would explain the spoiled brat thing if you go that route.

Quote
-On Josef
Needs to actually look a friend to Mirek and prove it at some point.
I will note that I see that Excal listed his age as 36 to Mirek's 23. I find it hard to believe that a best friend relationship developed from that. If the age is unnegotiable, then I'd suggest a surrogate father-type relationship instead.

Quote
-On Gier
Don't want to leave any dangling loose ends, but things should resolve along different lines.
This sounds like a good idea in general.

Quote
-On Isolde and Aurel
Did people still want some generalized romantic plot here? I don't think its a terrible idea and it definitely helps some PC relations, but I'm not sure exactly how squicky people find nearing double digit age difference relationships. Its an interesting choice and does add a fair amount  to their characters, especially if it goes to say that it was an amicable split due to their own priorities being in the same place... with the Empire and her people. Also adds one to the variable relationship checklist we've got going. Make Rafael a divorcee and we've actually caught all of them, I think.
I don't recall any talk of Aurel being Isolde's former romance... and also I thought Isolde was only 30 while Aurel is 24? That's not a huuuge difference. If her age can changed for no good reason like I'm guessing must have happened, then it's actually very impractical for them to have had a past relationship, since Aurel will be in the range of like 16 while Isolde is in her 30s... >.>;;

AndrewRogue

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Okay, some commentary on the outline updates.  I admittedly have a couple of beefs here, some which were somewhat addressed in chat.  But given that you said you'd forget, I might as well bring them up here.

Problem 01: Pushback of Selena fight, and the immediate recruitment issue.

Selena's second fight was placed during the Island escape sequence initially.  This, I feel, was a good idea for varying reasons.  Amongst other, this seemed like a good point to bring that subplot to a climax (and deal with the aftereffects of handling it badly there).  She would then, if she survived, be recruitable if you took the right plot options later on after the timeskip.  It also wouldn't make it immediately obvious that she'd be recruitable at that point, with the way I see it.  It's a matter of timing, for one.
The next reason: Second fight with her, she's ideally using a strong flow amplifier (with a potentially fatal drawback).  The idea would be that she's up against whatever party Isolde would be head of that was split off after the UIM was obtained, out of the eyes of superiors (and her mercenary followers would have said variants of "Screw this, I'm taking the advance and .  The big reason why the second fight with her before the timeskip, but recruitment after: She would need time to deal with the shock of having lost even at what would be her strongest.  The fact that revenge is apparently just not possible.  The fact that this is a fight she just can't win.  The hatred stays, but the logic sets in.
Reason the third, and one that if ignored would be open to some -serious- fridge logic.  Why would she join up with her 'enemy' right after trying to kill her again?  Why would Isolde -consider- such a thing right then and there?  It'd sound like a bad judgment call to me.  Not exactly a victory for pragmatism there.  The timeskip gives things time to cool down if Selena lives through the second fight.  I wouldn't see another attempt to kill her there, though.  Seems to me more like it'd be a somewhat out of the way thing, there.  Somehow seeing the recruitment occurring in a bar--if, of course, you appeal to pragmatism and logic accepting that you're not going to make her hate you less instead of trying to mend things over.

Well, the main reason why I placed it like I did is its kinda awkward to randomly wedge that fight into the island escape, I feel. Not undoable, but awkward. The main problem I have with the fridge logic is that, well... why would pragmatic Isolde suffer her to live and let her off the hook the first time? Leaving the loose end floating seems even more silly then trying to recruit her after the fight. At the very least, if you kept her nearby in that situation, you'd have a method of monitoring her. If you just let her roam free... well, who knows when the next nasty surprise will happen? Its not undoable, but it does fly pretty heavily in the face of her characterization.

Quote
Problem 02: Apparent removal of segments and ignorance of antagonists

It seems like things were unusually shortened--at the request of others.  I understand that this is partly due to the outline being just that; an outline.  At the same time, however, it feels like some things were shortened a bit too much.   I'll go over a few spots that gave me a bit of irritation and what I could see doing there.

First Practitioner's Island: Aside from the second Selena fight being pushed back (This was just covered, and I have no intention of going back over this), the island was originally going to be set up as a fake endgame.  It was originally seen that it would potentially be a split-party dungeon, with a significant boss from the losing faction on each path (or a chain of such bosses if there's a lack of split-party).  Splitting's easy enough to justify (detection), and I imagine that even if they docked on a different section from the Imperial and Guardian ships, there'd be some crossover of paths.  Plus shortening the escape sequence, well...aside from the issues above, feels like Isolde's underlings would follow to help her rather than just leave with Noemi. (Okay, Faulheit might be tempted to leave with Noemi, but Katarine is pushy).  I guess it just feels a bit too 'convenient', so to speak.

Missing people: None of the subordinates aside from Josef and Orienna are mentioned.  I'm not sure if this was intentional or just a side-effect of the outline format.  Cutting characters is the last thing I want to occur, though, especially since we need named subordinates that don't do something like show up for one chapter just to be killed off in the same chapter before anything like meaningful characterisation can occur.  I'm looking at you, Fire Emblem.

Shortened Campaign: The campaign against Tiercek (from start to Tiercek's death) feels too short.  I more imagined it as earlier described; four separate missions to differing areas for party members; more overt military-style ones for Isolde and Yiu, and covert stuff for Noemi and Mirek.  Possibly with selectable parties for those, and a relevant significant antagonist as boss there.  After that, then a fortress/capital raid (Split-party dungeon pulling out the stops.  We're going after the BBEG, we might as well make this sequence as impressive as possible.  We can put nameless midbosses here.) culminating in the fight against the BBEG (In this case, Tiercek).  The stuff afterward is fine.  I just want a bit longer of a campaign here, so to speak.  I know I'm asking for something that goes against the request to shorten it, but this feels a bit too short as-is.

Also, I have a bit of an idea on how the Gier fight on the Guardian path should go down.  It is viable to have him be fought alone

Precursor: Keep in mind this is obviously an abbreviated outline and doesn't cover everything. That, or I forgot it was a game and we don't have any gameplay for the variable arcs.

Actually, I totally disagree with it being a split dungeon, considering one of the large premises is that this place is so horrendously disquieted that you need excellent guardians to not go crazy nuts here. There CAN (and probably should) be splittish elements, but I don't think it ought be a full fledged split dungeon. Can be discussed, though.

Escape should not be long to long to begin with, otherwise it ruins all sensation of haste/franticness. Also, nobody ever said Isolde got lost alone. And really, I could imagine a yell from Isolde ("Do your damn job and don't worry about me!") would keep them in line even if they were being separated from her.

Subordinate mention failure was intentional and not. Honestly, I can't recall them 90% of the time anyway, so I just excluded them. You can easily see where they can be stuck in, though. But yes, some consistency is important.

I'm fairly neutral. Looking at  it, I think I agree with you though.

Quote
That aside, a bit of commentary and an idea.

Not seeing the High Commander being her father.  That feels a bit...eh.  Perhaps having a relative on the council (We do need to fill those guys out, after all!), but not the High Commander.  It makes the level of trust in her ability feel a bit more significant if the High Commander isn't directly related by blood to her, after all.

Gier having killed Claire's sister: Thought we were trashing that storyline.  But if not, that would be a nasty way to have that subplot end in a downer

Isolde and Selena, regardless of how they are now, were at one point friends of a sort.  If Selena does die, I can see Isolde taking some kind of memento if she does die during the second fight (Possibly the amplifier[likely burnt out at this point, just to keep it from being directly usable], making it an accessory specific to her at that point).  Just an odd thought, not necessary, and a more silent way of mourning.

Other thoughts on Isolde: She's the type who internalizes a lot.  That much is readily apparent.  It would make a good point that, at some point, she likely would have to release her suppressed anger and frustration at some point.  I'm not sure when, but it's something that would probably be seen looming ahead; it would happen, the question is just when and how.

The main problem with it being "some other guy" is that then that "some other guy" should probably vaguely figure into the story somewhere. And we're pushing it on includable stuff. The more ones that need actual characterization, the more space we have to dedicate to them, and the more designs I have to squeeze out of Djinn. And I dunno. Honestly, speaking from personal experience, parents are the harshest judges of their children. And considering this was a guy who court martialed his own daughter... *shrugs* Not overly pressured either way, though. It was just a thought.

On Claire: No idea. She does need something if she doesn't want to be a fairly weak tertiary, but it... does make a depressing amount of sense if she disappeared during the revolution. I mean, I hate downer ends as much as the next guy, but... sometimes...

No comment otherwise.

074

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Well, the main reason why I placed it like I did is its kinda awkward to randomly wedge that fight into the island escape, I feel. Not undoable, but awkward. The main problem I have with the fridge logic is that, well... why would pragmatic Isolde suffer her to live and let her off the hook the first time? Leaving the loose end floating seems even more silly then trying to recruit her after the fight. At the very least, if you kept her nearby in that situation, you'd have a method of monitoring her. If you just let her roam free... well, who knows when the next nasty surprise will happen? Its not undoable, but it does fly pretty heavily in the face of her characterization.

It's easy enough to explain in the first fight.  Selena's magic specialty is light.  Most of the time, you're just seeing short blasts--but that's partly because it takes more effort to focus enough light into a form that's coherently harmful to a target.  It'd be easier to explain, then, that something meant simply to provide cover for escape (via obscuring brightness and/or simply blinding) would take less effort, even over an area.  She keeps this seldom-used, partially because Strahl-Bombe is more combat-effective (since it harms while blinding), and partially because others would start to expect it if she didn't keep it as a trump card for when things went bad.  So functionally, she and her mercenaries escape under the cover of an extended magical flashbang.  Roughed-up and with a bruised ego, but still alive and free.

Second fight, assuming she lives, she'd still be in -bad- shape.  Partly her body thanks to the amplifier, but also her psyche, as it gets hammered into her head rather harshly that she simply could not win.  And if you really want Isolde on her own on the escape, we could have the Selena fight occur on a short split segment on the way in(For some reason, I also see potential Brightslapping/Brightpunching, but that may just be me).  Possibly, she passes out at some point.  (And it's viable, thus, to make a secondary requirement for her recruitment during the escape in the case of Guardian path; if you want her to live, you'd better drag her ass out of there on the way out.  Might work doubly if Isolde's not around at that point.  There might be some other secondary requirement on Imperial path, or perhaps it's easier to recruit her there.  One of the two ways.)

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Honestly, I can't recall them 90% of the time anyway, so I just excluded them.

Man, I must do a shit job at design.
<+Nama-EmblemOfFire> ...Have the GhebFE guy and the ostian princess guy collaborate.
 <@Elecman> Seems reasonable.

Excal

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I wouldn't worry too much about it, Nama.  Subordinates are by their nature forgettable.  It is like trying to make a marshmallow scary.

AndrewRogue

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Andy rambles on Eirwen.

<SadAndy> As per my random  blathering, among my characters who needed more examination was poor Ei, as she still suffers a little o'ermuch from the love interest issue, a partial consequence as she's undergone a lot of revisions over the course of when this was a solo project. She kinda wrapped back around.
<SadAndy> So I got to sitting down and thinking about her and what we had, what this meant and what to do with this.
<SadAndy> From obvious thematic points, aside from her connections to Mir (which are important and deserve their own examination, since their coupling is largely about coming to terms and people growing together anyway), her big points are that she has a pretty fucking terrible father under current visioning and is the most "normally" powered person.
<SadAndy> Which, honestly, at its own level, has to be kind of personally depressing unless you can work out justifications for yourself. I mean, hell, I'm plenty talented, and people who are better at other things still make me feel bad about myself.
<SadAndy> I got a little sidetracked thinking about her artist side, since she treats cooking like that, and it kinda started to come to me. I mean, one thing that artists really search for (at least some of them) is... well, recognition.
<SadAndy> It starts to build up a bit. She grew up fairly unremarkable, had a father who totally ditched her father (this should be family, I can type, I swear!), (debatable relationship with her mother) and it kinda builds up logically that she feels... kinda personally... meaningless. Unimportant, might be the more appropriate word?
<SadAndy> Young adult, too.
<SadAndy> More feeding into that.
<SadAndy> She's probably lonely. She gets by and survives efficiently and puts on a good face, and does love what she does, but she feels really disconnected from the people around her. She's not really important for the fact that she is herself. She has very limited connections (multiple factors to it) and probably resents it.
<SadAndy> I mean, thinking on it from a tropey point, she's the girl next door, with the kind of sad reality that implies when you think about the term itself.
<SadAndy> In the scheme of things, she's unremarkable, and if she died (prior the plot, at least)... well. No one probably would really care.
<SadAndy> Now. This is kinda downer, so keep in mind, the intent is not to create an emoblob. She isn't.
<SadAndy> But it does help explain a lot of things.
<SadAndy> These aren't like, say, surface concerns. Their the sort of stuff that come out when you lay down in bed at night and stare at the empty blackness all around you.
<SadAndy> But playing with it, it makes a lot of sense and plays into some common things. Also balances the pairing in a bit in that they realistically both need someone like the other in their life.
<SadAndy> It also says a lot about why she's willing to pack up and leave or why she helps Noemi.
<SadAndy> She wants a purpose. She wants to do something meaningful. Her skills aren't necessarilly the most useful thing ever in a fight, but she's got a lot of useful practicality that she can lend and she wants something to  apply them to.
<SadAndy> She both has a desire to matter to someone else and to matter in the grand scheme of the world.
<SadAndy> Which totally explains a lot about her, I think. It also might go a long way towards explaining how she interacts with others
<SadAndy> I think. Feels like this clearrs her character out quite a bit and gives her a lot of individualized depth, since she was suffering on that front earlier.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2010, 02:47:18 PM by AndrewRogue »

074

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It is like trying to make a marshmallow scary.

MARSHIE.  NEVER FORGET MARSHIE.
<+Nama-EmblemOfFire> ...Have the GhebFE guy and the ostian princess guy collaborate.
 <@Elecman> Seems reasonable.

Excal

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It's kinda hard to forget the guy who lost to Jogurt in a fair fight.

074

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Since Djinn was interested in having more Disquieted Beasts that lack name, character, or plot significance, this made me ponder where what sort of bosses were most likely.  Partly out of curiosity, partly out of an interest of saying we don't need more nameless plotless disquieted headless chickens abominations, I opted to look over the plot outline up to the start of FPI (Still saying that's where pathsplit should begin).  These are all estimates, just as a reminder.

Prologues: Don't see anything that -really- counts as bosses in Isolde's or Mirek's.  Noemi's has the chicken.
 Noemi 1: Yiu&co.
 Isolde 1: Black Noise.
 Noemi 2: Human boss likely. 
Isolde 2: Black Noise, again.  This time with full abilities. 
Mirek 1: No boss here, unless Orienna's underlings count. 
Noemi 3: Could be anything. 
Mirek 2: None. 
Noemi 4: disquieted boss likely. 
Mirek 3: None, seems almost like an intermission in and of itself
 Isolde 3:  Disquieted beast, possibly also a Guardian. 
Noemi 5: Disquieted presences? 
Festival Attack(Isolde): Another disquieted beast, apparently.  We really need to spread those around more. 
Festival Attack(Mirek): One-shot Guardian boss. 
Festival Attack(Noemi): Tiercek (holding way the hell back, I imagine).
 Isolde 4: No boss. 
Noemi 6: No boss. 
Mirek 4: No apparent boss. 
Isolde 5: Mercenary/ies.  Possibly one-shot, or it's viable to introduce Jade, Nadine, and Tanja here before they recur under Selena later on.  (Escaping is always an option for them unless you just want some oneshot boss to kill.)
Noemi 7: Disquieted boss, Yiu&co.
Mirek 5: Orienna.  She's definitely a viable fight here.  If not, one-shot Guardian Boss.
Noemi 8: WILD SEA BEAST. 
Isolde 6: Selena and her mercenaries. 
Mirek 6: Rass, Isolde, Faulheit, and Katarine. 
Noemi 8: Protector thingy? 
Isolde 7: Oneshot Guardian boss. 
Noemi 9: Possibly none.  If there is one, could be anything.
The Attack: Lots of choices.  Could be bosses depending on your choices. 
Noemi 10: Yiu&co, other bosses depend on which path party is on (Splitpath should happen at the start of FPI, I think, not once the UIM is reached)

As an interesting note: bosses by viewpoint:

Noemi: 13+ bosses.  Five human (three of which are Yiu and his group), four Disquieted, two nontyped, and two that could be anything.
Isolde: 8-9 bosses, pending on if the Guardian in Isolde 3 counts.  Four Disquieted, the rest are human.
Mirek: 3 bosses.  Four if you count Orienna's underlings in the first, and one of them you don't even have to win.

Observations: Mirek must be the laziest ex-Guardian ever.  3-4 viable bosses and not one of them is a Disquieted Abomination.  Isolde, on the other hand, appears to be wading up to her ass in Disquieted Abominations (roughly half or just below half are Disquieted Abomination fights).  Noemi has a couple of fights that don't fit either Disquieted or Human, oddly enough.(WILD SEA BEAST is the new Most Awesome Fight)
<+Nama-EmblemOfFire> ...Have the GhebFE guy and the ostian princess guy collaborate.
 <@Elecman> Seems reasonable.

AndrewRogue

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Although its not built in, most of the "empty" Mirek boss chapters can have "bosses" fairly easily slotted in. And honestly, if we want to play up the encroaching Disquiet thing, it wouldn't be too hard to squeeze in a couple of notable Disquieted fights along the lines there. Anyhow. to bust it down.

Mirek Prologue can stick a tutorial "boss" fight against drunks/thugs/hooligans. C1... yeah, Guardian underlings. I mean, this is the first time they've been fought. C3 can be reworked to feature a Disquieted boss. Which shores things up a bit more in that regard, I think.

AndrewRogue

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Character notes with Sopko, abridged version. PCs with ovaries only.

Eirwen: Started her, just confirming my previous statements, really.

Noemi: Nammuch to say. She's fine.

Isolde: Bit of a cold fish. Awkward response to flirting (a bit of social ineptness due to inexperience, not comic, honest discomfort).

Katarine: Marginally OCD. Wakes early, goes to bed late due to necessary preparations of sigils, neatness, etc. Not really overly serious about things, but kinda highstrung so goes overboard. Likely wears make-up and grooms meticulously to cover up the fact that she has serious bags and sleep deprivation. Lives in a very vicious circle.

Adm H Sopko (1:59:39 AM): To steal a term from Gorth: She's the type that needs some serious deep-dicking and a good night's sleep

Illona: Loyal to her cause, but developed cynicism from what occurred. Not really bothered with her role in it, because she chose her path and stuck to her guns. Probably more snarky on the humor end. Not down or depressed, just not necessarily a true bubbly ray of sunshine. Serious about Guardian stufff.

Claire: Kid sister type. Rich, young daughter of a slightly negligent about parenting, successful at his work trader. Probably falls into the grating/annoying kid type a bit, but balances it out by not being central, being honestly hardworking and the emotional cheapshot shit with her sister.

AndrewRogue (2:53:57 AM):   Four years back from when plot starts, Guardians went Roguue.
AndrewRogue (2:54:00 AM):   *rogue
AndrewRogue (2:54:19 AM):   After about a year, the military put down the "revolution"
AndrewRogue (2:54:27 AM):   And the Guardians were driven underground.
AndrewRogue (2:54:31 AM):   Well. The traitorous ones.
AndrewRogue (2:54:45 AM):   The untraitor ones were all like "check it out, we stayed cool and loyal ^_^"
Adm H Sopko (2:55:05 AM):   Aww
AndrewRogue (2:55:13 AM):   To which the basic population responded "shut the hell up, Guardian scum. You all ruined our lives."
Adm H Sopko (2:55:13 AM):   I was hoping for terrorist girl ^ ^
AndrewRogue (2:55:26 AM):   Loyal Guardians: "=("
AndrewRogue (2:55:52 AM):   Claire lost track of her sister in that year and hasn't heard from her since.
AndrewRogue (2:56:26 AM):   So she's all like, "I bet if I got better and awesome and all guardian-y I could find her!"
Adm H Sopko (2:56:36 AM):   So her main motivation is finding her sister. Got it
AndrewRogue (2:56:39 AM):   So, she joined the government replacement group.
AndrewRogue (2:56:45 AM):   The Plantation Guard.
AndrewRogue (2:56:50 AM):   Who, quite frankly, are red shirts.
AndrewRogue (2:56:57 AM):   Whereas most Guardians would have names.
AndrewRogue (2:57:11 AM):   So she's like "This sucks and is totally NOT what I wanted."
Adm H Sopko (2:57:50 AM):   So... incredibly naive, slightly spoiled, loyal to her family... she honestly sounds like nobility
AndrewRogue (2:57:55 AM):   And she chance encounters Mirek, who WAS one of the predominant Guardians in the city, and a loyal to boot. And she's all like *squee!* "Uhm, uhm, uhm... m-maybe... c-could you teach me?"
AndrewRogue (2:58:04 AM):   Mirek: "No."
AndrewRogue (2:58:11 AM):   Claire: "=("
AndrewRogue (2:58:24 AM):   Claire: "Please?"
AndrewRogue (2:58:30 AM):   Mirek: "No."
AndrewRogue (2:58:52 AM):   Mirek: "Also, stop being a plantation guard. you will get your ass killed."
AndrewRogue (2:59:02 AM):   Claire: ";_;"
AndrewRogue (2:59:12 AM):   Claire: *sob story*
AndrewRogue (2:59:45 AM):   Mirek: *sigh* "Fine. Whatever. Stop doing itt and I'll let you watch me practice or something."
AndrewRogue (2:59:55 AM):   Eirwen: "You should totally agree to it. He does it without a shirt."
AndrewRogue (3:00:00 AM):   Eirwen: <3
Adm H Sopko (3:00:04 AM):   So... she's annoying, dependant and needy?

Meilin: Sexy, self-assured, self-confident, flirty... far too tolerant of Yiu's insanity and tends to overrate herself (should not be played up comically). It works.

Kasia: Abandoned Bleach plot. Hard worker and dedicated, but just not smart/competent at the level of the top tiers of the cast (i.e. Noemi). Works hard to keep up, but can't. Struggles and grows desperate/frustrated with this.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2010, 08:22:05 AM by AndrewRogue »

AndrewRogue

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More with Sopko and Andy, PCs with dangling junk edition.

Erastus: Works.

Aurel: Average rank and file. Might be bordering a little too much in that direction. Decent guy, but not particularly stand out or special. Mrf. Make sure he's not too stern/serious, just that he takes his work seriously.

Shao: Debating his importance to his family. Revise a bit, give him a brother who originally wanted this position, but was too up in the heir hierarchy to do it, so Shao stepped in. Friendly rivalry. Twists the job to do it his own way.

Mirek: Consider some elements of acute stress/PTSD.

Artur: Guy in it for #1. Not a bad person, does good things willingly, but expects fair compensation and what not. Is somewhat used to getting his way. Doesn't intentionally put people out, but can be quite impositional/thoughtless at times.

Adm H Sopko (1:47:13 AM):   I mean, he's the guy you like but also tolerate

Rafael: Keep in mind he's kinda a failed researcher. Probably frustrated, regretful about the family thing, but not open about it.

Selena: Lacks dangly bits, but I was reminded I forgot her by Sopko. Then I claimed a headache and ran away screaming to take a break.

Hunter Sopko

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Putting down the whole conversation about Katarine, so people don't get the wrong ideas >.> She ended up actually being my favorite coming out of this.

AndrewRogue: Katarine...
AndrewRogue: She uh.
AndrewRogue: Exists.
AndrewRogue: I guess.
AndrewRogue: Neat freak, organized, likely a bit OCD in some ways.
AndrewRogue: Her magic requires a ton of prep time, so she goes to sleep late, wakes up early
Adm H Sopko: Bags under her eyes probably covered with lots of makeup
AndrewRogue: Booted out of normal military service to serve under Isolde.
AndrewRogue: Implying competence, but NOT being suited for service
Adm H Sopko: Mm
AndrewRogue: (Isolde got a couple "special" recruits for her freelance work)
Adm H Sopko: Honorable discharge or actual booting?
AndrewRogue: Former. Its not a real omega squad.
AndrewRogue: Its just people with real skills and talent that... wouldn't work out well in the normal ranks
Adm H Sopko: I could see her being at the end of her first term and it being recommended to her that she shouldn't re-enlist
Adm H Sopko: And being funnelled to Isolde instead
AndrewRogue: *nods* That works better
Adm H Sopko: Whats her personality like so far? I mean, the sleep pattern I could see her being high strung even without the OCD
AndrewRogue: She's basically meant to be the opposite of the lazy, laid back Faulheit.
AndrewRogue: So yeah. A bit high strung. A bit overly intense probably. Very serious about everything she does.
Adm H Sopko: I dunno
Adm H Sopko: About the last one, I mean
AndrewRogue: Actually, in retrospect, its probably untrue anywawy.
AndrewRogue: Not sure. It makes her a little too harsh anyway.
Adm H Sopko: Mm. I can see it as being not that she's THAT serious, but she's just generally so wired that she goes overboard on it anyway.
AndrewRogue: That... makes a lot of sense.
Adm H Sopko: To steal a term from Gorth: She's the type that needs some serious deep-dicking and a good night's sleep
AndrewRogue: Hrrrrm. I agree, actually.
Adm H Sopko: There would definately need to be a Katarina without makeup portrait for laughs
AndrewRogue: Oh god, the bags. ;_;
Adm H Sopko: Heheh
Adm H Sopko: Anything else about her?
AndrewRogue: Nah. She's pretty much a tertiary character
AndrewRogue: I'd like some roundness, but I haven't done much with her because she's fairly unimportant
Adm H Sopko: Well
Adm H Sopko: I mean, the roundness is built in
Adm H Sopko: Though generally unnoticable unless you call attention to it
Adm H Sopko: She's living a generally unhealthy lifestyle mostly due to the career path she's chosen
Adm H Sopko: And then she's told that she's not really suited to it
Adm H Sopko: It's a vicious cycle of self-pity and lashing out at choosing this path fueling the high strung personality


More on the Claire conversation:
Adm H Sopko:   So... she's annoying, dependant and needy?
AndrewRogue: I dunno. I'm losing coherency on that one.
AndrewRogue: Your first assessment was awesome though.
AndrewRogue: And I ascribe to it.
AndrewRogue: I would like to avoid the latter being too strong, if possible.
AndrewRogue: Since annoying kid is... uh.
AndrewRogue: Annoying.
Adm H Sopko: Uh
Adm H Sopko: I'm not saying she should be
Adm H Sopko: I'm saying she IS
Adm H Sopko: Based on that
Adm H Sopko: Being naive, spoiled and loyal, she would obviously be a little annoying anyway
AndrewRogue: Fair enough. So let us fix that. I was mainly being silly in there. But you got the basic plot idea. The only real strong factors I had were shyness and that she IS a bit kiddy
Adm H Sopko: Thats not shyness
Adm H Sopko: That's like, the opposite of shy
AndrewRogue: (I honestly took liberty there)
AndrewRogue: We're hitting PCs I don't have much on.
Adm H Sopko: I'd say nix the shyness, honestly. I like how it's going on the other parts and it really doesn't seem to mesh
AndrewRogue: Works for me.
Adm H Sopko: Nobility is a strong possibility
AndrewRogue: i actually 100% agree after reading the way you phrased it.
AndrewRogue: Her personality... really does scream it
AndrewRogue: Well. TECHNICALLY
AndrewRogue: It screams middle class.
AndrewRogue: Which does exist in the world.
AndrewRogue: Upper-middle? Hrrm. Not nobility. Child of a successful merchant?
Adm H Sopko: Hmm
Adm H Sopko: Rich non-noble
Adm H Sopko: How's that work? Upper class non-noble? Such a thing or no?
AndrewRogue: Yeah.
AndrewRogue: Class structure is such that a middle-upper/rich non-nobility has had some space to develop
AndrewRogue: Its not HUGE
AndrewRogue: But its there
AndrewRogue: Her sister probably was also one of those semi-spoiled kids who joined the Guardians like it was Green Peace or something.
AndrewRogue: Then got dragged into the whole eco-terrorism thing that emerged.
AndrewRogue: (And, under current auspicions, was killed)
Adm H Sopko: Mm
AndrewRogue: (Thus making Claire such a pitifully sad PC)
Adm H Sopko: And awesome
AndrewRogue: Its cruel and goes against all my natural instinct, but it works so well.
Adm H Sopko: It does!
AndrewRogue: So. How do we play her type and story without being too grating. And round her a bit.
Adm H Sopko: Well, she's not that central. That in itself keeps her from being grating
AndrewRogue: FOR GENERAL REFERENCE. Mirek's group is become the "family" group out of all the groups.
AndrewRogue: Which is the one she's a part of.
Adm H Sopko: So she's the bratty little sister
Adm H Sopko: Shock and awe, she acts the part?
AndrewRogue: Pretty much
Adm H Sopko: Nothing wholly bad about that
Adm H Sopko: She's got her bad sides, but she's still earnst and hard working and tragic
AndrewRogue: That works.
AndrewRogue: She's got the spoiled kid attitude, but less of the work ethic elements?


Meilin and Isolde- Some clarification of the "Shouldn't be played up comically" comment... both Isolde and Meilin are fairly close to being characters without flaws. This generally lights a big warning light in my head. Meilin's big flaw was supposed to be her overconfidence, but depending on how it's presented it could seriously gloss over it, which is why that note is there. It SHOULD cause actual problems for her.

As for Isolde's, her's was that she was pragmatic, for all the good and bad it entailed. Granted, it can be, but from many points of view it really isn't. Her general personality kinda easily lent her to being incredibly awkward in social situations though, especially those with the opposite sex. Not the type you laugh at either, more the genuine, party-stopping embarassment kind. She's not really an ice queen, she does try sometimes, so thats where the cold fish thing comes from. Combining these settles pretty well for the character.

Aurel being average... well, I'll post the convo bit on it.

AndrewRogue: >_>
Adm H Sopko: Well
Adm H Sopko: It depends on your interpretation, really
Adm H Sopko: He's a competant, hard-working rank and file soldier. Is at least mindful about his orders and the aims of the army, even though he follows them. Had a fling with a superior officer! Sweet! But as expected that didn't work out. He was probably more upset at the breakup than she was. Assigned to work with Noemi, meh about it at first but gains interest. Gains a personal stake in it.
Adm H Sopko: It's... average
Adm H Sopko: To me at leaast
Adm H Sopko: Someone else might be more interested in it
AndrewRogue: Mmm. It makes sense.
AndrewRogue: Might just come down to how he's written. I'll keep an eye on that one.
Adm H Sopko: Mm

Originally when I heard his character traits I'd thought he was an officer, and he sounded so self-contridictory that he's almost schizo... but when Andy told me he was a normal soldier, things made more sense.He's just a painfully average kinda guy trying to make the most out of his situation.

I still caution against making Mirek as dark, quiet and broody as I've seen him bandied about. The PTSD thing might seem contradictory to this, but it manifests itself in a lot of ways that aren't that and I think the game could go without taking the easy way out of how the Betrayal affected Mirek.

For Artur... yeah. He doesn't necessarily need to be that likable. I like his personality as Andy put it. There's always at least one person in a group you tolerate more than like and he works really well at it.

AndrewRogue

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Finished (and by finished, I mean I completed a draft after realizing this would never happen if I didn't do something) some Mir side characters backstory through Eirwen's POV. Ended up clocking in at 14 pages because I hate you all. With some help and some time, I'll edit it up to suck less. But for now, priority is getting some similar pieces done for some other characters. If people have suggestions for something to do with it for easy viewing, suggest away.

074

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You could put it up on Google Docs and link to it.  Just a suggestion, really.
<+Nama-EmblemOfFire> ...Have the GhebFE guy and the ostian princess guy collaborate.
 <@Elecman> Seems reasonable.


DjinnAndTonic

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Thoughts for Isolde:

Someone as good of a soldier as Isolde probably comes from a family with some kind of military background. But if one of her parents was a ranking Dissonant soldier too, it would kind of destroy how we built her as a self-made woman. Instead, I was thinking maybe her father was actually a Guardian.
He probably quit the Guardians long before the Betrayal. Too dangerous, his wife said, now that he has kids. So he probably became some mundane worker... farmer? Blacksmith? I like Blacksmith, still pretty battle-oriented atmosphere for Isolde to grow up in.
Hmm... her younger brother was probably born with some kind of Resonant Soul Sense, thus making him a perfect inheritor for a blacksmith - he can even bind Sigils to the equipment! Kinda leaves Isolde without much hope for the family business. But that's okay, she's always loved her father's battle stories.
And she's always listened to her mother's cautionary tales about how she "wished he wouldn't have been a Guardian. Even an Imperial soldier would be a better job, at least they don't muck around in the Disquiet."

So Isolde eventually became a soldier. A good one. A ranking one. And when the Guardian betrayal happened, well, she was just such an easy target. Her dad was under no real persecution, he had quit the Guardians years ago. ...But Isolde? Who destroyed nearly her whole battalion? Maybe she's got a sympathetic Guardian leanings? After all, what can you expect from the spawn of a Guardian, even a former one?
Might explain how she manages to get Ilona to trust her, too.

Excal

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I think I actually dislike that idea.  Just feels like we're starting to tie too much into the Guardians at that point.  Not to mention, while this is a generally explained system, sometimes genetics does weird stuff through odd combinations and random throwbacks.

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*anger*