Author Topic: Rank Characters based on In Game Use: Reboot!  (Read 141553 times)

Cmdr_King

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Re: Rank Characters based on In Game Use: Reboot!
« Reply #800 on: August 12, 2012, 11:23:37 AM »
Breath of Fire 4:

Eh, fuck it.  Don't remember this game at a party usefulness level.

Suikoden DEFG:

Eikei: 2/10.
Eileen: 6/10.  Pretty good, but it's Suikoden 1.  Easy to replace.
Fu Su Lu: 2/10.  Almost certainly a generic fighter.
Fuiken: 4/10.  Hm.  Res rune if I'm not mistaken.  I forget if Suikoden 1 gave you many of those but honestly it's a bad rune aside from revival and you don't NEED that in Suikoden 1. 
Fuma: 2/10
Futch: 2/10
Gen: 2/10
Gon: 2/10
Griffith: 2/10

Feather: 2/10.
Freed Y: 3/10.  He holds his own more or less when they force him on you but there's no compelling reason to put him in the party voluntarily I think.
Futch: 3/10.  Pretty much as above.
Gabocha: 2/10.
Gadget: 2/10
Gantetsu: 2/10.  Man I mixed this dude up with Genshu for a second.  Like hell I remember what he did otherwise.
Gengen: 2/10.
Genshu: 2/10.  Yeah, I know.  But it's not like you have to use him.
Gijimu: 4/10.  Not great, no bad, but good taste in runes to start with. *yoink*

Duke: 3/10.  He has some value in war battles just because you can throw his crew in a unit and they won't embarrass themselves but even then it's not a great option.  Among the worst in the cast outside that.
Dupa: 3/10.  Lizards suck, but as above you can quickly get Dupa into some sort of fighting trim for war battles at least.
Edge: 3/10.  Random mediocre fighter with a minor in not utterly sucking at magic.  Not a great build for this game.
Elaine: 3/10.  She's got the stats but not the skills.  Or was it the other way around?  Anyway, water runers are a dime a dozen here.
Emily: 8/10.  Punch it until its dead.
Estella: 6/10.  Estelle's easily the best non-Geddoe mage, having S ranks in both offensive magics.  How useful that is... eh, she'll generally make one of the split parties in the endgame, at least for me.
Franz: 3/10.  See edge.  I find Franz/Ruby less tempting than the other mounted pairs.
Fred: 4/10.  Best all-around tank, I think.  I don't find that super useful in Suikoden III but it's a niche.
Fubar: 5/10.  The raw offensive punch of Hugo/Fubar is pretty nice while you build up Hugo's skills, and I've definitely opted for it in the endgame although it's probably not that great an idea.
Futch: 4/10.  What'd I give bright?  4?  'kay.
Gadget Z: 2/10.  Not much to him.  Monster in a game not friendly to them.
Gau-3: 4/10.  Probably the best duke crew member out of the box?  Hits reasonably hard and doesn't fall over easily.

Eugene: 2/10
Gau-4: 2/10
Gretchen: 2/10. Dammit Suikoden IV.

Dinn: 3/10.  There's better tanks.
Eresh: 3/10.  Interesting on paper but not worth the effort.
Ernst: 6/10.  Ernst is neat.  My memory is that his damage type (dark maybe?) isn't terribly resisted, and the stun move has some value here and there.
FaSoLa: Abstain
Faylen: Abstain
Faylon: Abstain
Gavaya: Abstain
Goesch: Abstain
Gunde: Abstain
CK: She is the female you
Snow: Speaking of Sluts!

<NotMiki> I mean, we're talking life vs. liberty, with the pursuit of happiness providing color commentary.

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Rank Characters based on In Game Use: Reboot!
« Reply #801 on: August 12, 2012, 05:39:58 PM »
Quote
Elaine: 3/10.  She's got the stats but not the skills.  Or was it the other way around?  Anyway, water runers are a dime a dozen here.

Elaine has fine (unexceptional) stats and an A in Lightning, which a storebought Wizard Hat and a spare Lightning Magic Ring can make an S. She's basically Estella trading some magic charges for a 3-swing physical and better durability, and I will take that trade in Suikoden 3 any day.

Erwin Schrödinger will kill you like a cat in a box.
Maybe.

DjinnAndTonic

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Re: Rank Characters based on In Game Use: Reboot!
« Reply #802 on: November 14, 2012, 03:50:24 AM »
*pokes topic* Hey Meeple, where is my next batch of Suikoscrubs to mock?

SnowFire

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Re: Rank Characters based on In Game Use: Reboot!
« Reply #803 on: September 05, 2013, 06:14:26 AM »
#fedl thread hijack time, now that we've all had time to play through the game once or thrice, it's thread-necro time.  Huge cast is huge, so just one game.

Obligatory note: This is just an excuse to chat about the cast.  Character rankings can and will vary by difficulty level, by Casual vs. Classic, by normal endgame vs. free postgame vs. all DLC, by no grinding / occasional grinding / lots of grinding.  That's okay, just use whatever rating you feel fits.  3/10, φ/ π, Ko/Meeple, it's all good.

Fire Emblem: Awakening

Chrom
Avatar
Lissa
Frederick
Sully
Virion
Stahl
Vaike
Miriel
Sumia
Lon'qu
Donnel
Ricken
Maribelle
Panne
Gaius
Cordelia
Gregor
Nowi
Libra
Tharja
Anna
Olivia
Cherche
Henry
Say'ri
Tiki
Basilio
Flavia

Lucina
Owain
Inigo
Brady
Kjelle
Cynthia
Severa
Gerome
Morgan
Yarne
Laurent
Noire
Nah

Gangrel
Walhart
Emmeryn
Yen'fay
Aversa
Priam

SpotPass characters
DLC characters

SnowFire

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Re: Rank Characters based on In Game Use: Reboot!
« Reply #804 on: September 05, 2013, 07:04:58 AM »
As far as I'm concerned, Awakening is a well-balanced cast, barring a few well-known outliers.  I could easily see fitting most of the cast from 5-7, but that'd be boring, so I've exaggerated a tad.  I've additionally been nice and generally weighted characters more toward where they shine - the aftergame matters more for the kids (almost all of whom would be a bit meh for the normal lategame due to spending it in catch-up mode) and less for the adults (many of whom are a bit meh then!).  So yeah, results in an inflated average, which is good, that means that most of the characters at least have some niche where they're authentically good.

Characters I haven't used seriously in my 3 playthroughs get a ?.

Chrom - 7/10.  Most reliable front-line beater early, hits 3 weaknesses between Falchion & Rapiers, gets Aether hax & Javelins late.  A bit nervous to send him against true hordes alone, though, as his Aether/dodging rate isn't always reliable.
Avatar - 9/10.  It's pretty hard for the Avatar not to be the best - even if you hate Tactician, Robin can Second Seal to whatever your favorite class is and have the right stat build for it.  And will support with everyone, including hard-to-please types, and will have a level advantage thanks to Veteran.  Tactician/Grandmaster is fine anyway, and Ignis & Rally Spectrum hold up in the aftergame if you care, or can be replaced by whatever crazy build you want.
Lissa - 5/10.  Staff users are all kinda interchangeable, you want at least 2 but their stats don't matter THAT much.  Lissa's your only option early, gets the earliest start on gaining levels, and if she got RNG-screwed you just replace her with Mari or Libra anyway.  Also, Chrom tends to be someone I'll sometimes leave not paired-up, and he & Lissa usually have a good support, so if I need an emergency pair-up for him it's nice that his (also unpaired) healer also supports.
Frederick - 7/10.  Gets you out of any scrapes in the earlygame, and also makes a solid Pair Up (+4 Str / +4 Def for Sumia?  Yes pls).  Is the Messiah in Lunatic earlygame.  You probably shouldn't be using him directly by C8 or so, but even then, he makes perfectly decent Pair-Up bait if you want to keep using him.

Sully - 6/10.  Averagey McAverage the Cavalier.  She works.
Virion - 4/10.  Virion is authentically useful for the first 10 Chapters + associated Paralogues or so!  The battles are small enough that Virion can set up, chip down some dudes, and let others move in to finish them off, or vice versa.  By the time you hit end turn, you've either killed everything or built a little wall around your squishy backline and Virion is in range of 0-1 enemies.  Then you move forward again and repeat killing off more enemies.  Meanwhile, Virion OHKOs all the flyers.  ...then you hit the backhalf of the game.  Suddenly, Virion's suspect speed growth bites him: he now fears getting doubled & OHKO'd, and the map design makes it much harder to protect an aggro Virion, and he's certainly not going to handle hordes by himself.  Oh, and few characters care about a +SKL pair-up.  He's not totally useless, there's occasional Longbow hax and he can still perma-hide in a Pair-up and let his wife get to slaughter fliers for free, but meh.
Stahl - 3/10?  Meh.  Stahl's in an awkward spot.  He doesn't have quite the raw defense to be a Kellam / Nowi-esque tank who doesn't care if he's doubled, yet he doesn't have the speed to ensure he never gets doubled.  At least going Paladin would help fix his Resistance some.  Seems like he'd be among the characters who most benefit if you funnel extra XP his way, at least - an extra 5 levels for +3 DEF / +2 SPD suddenly means he's far harder to kill (unlike dodgy characters whose extra 5 levels might leave them still doubling & killing everything on your turn, and still killable via bad luck on the enemy turn).
Vaike - 4/10.  The Vaike is practically your only option for axes early, and the boatload of HP means he's among the best in the game at eating 1-2 powerful attacks.  Hero promotion gets him some badly needed Skill & Sol to increase his survivability.  Still, the speed problems, which restrict his feasible pair-up options to speedsters, means I can't in good conscience give him too high a score, though he's absolutely usable.  Is kinda trashy toward the end & in the postgame anyway.
Miriel - 4/10.  A glass cannon with a bit too much glass and not enough cannon for my tastes.  Also, the Avatar can cover frying Knights & Wyvern Riders with magic early, and Miriel will be competing against Tharja & Henry come the midgame.  Far from a lost cause of course, especially if you get a Celica's Gale early, and worst comes to worst she can spam Physic Staves from the rear lines in the last chapters as a Lissa variant.
Sumia - 8/10.  Amazing.  Fast, dodgy, a great pair-up, flying mobility, good times.  She has some minor issues - she can get STR or DEF screwed if unlucky, her support options are a tad limited, and she fears ninja assassins with bows.  But whatever.  Also gets bonus points for being by far the best Gangrel slayer with high RES / SPD / dodge / WTA.

Lon'qu - 6/10.  Serviceable swordmaster.  Makes for great pair-up bait w/ slower & tankier females or Vaike.  Resistance problems can lead to some heart-stopping enemy turns (3 enemy mages who 2HKO Lon'qu but only have a listed 40% chance of hitting - does fate hate you?).  Notably worse on Lunatic where he should just be a speed boost for some other character.
Donnel - 3/10?  Way too much effort babying him early.  To add insult to injury, he's not even particularly good for the deeper aftergame for all the work he takes.  If I want to grind up someone with a bad start, I'll wait for the kids.
Ricken - 2/10?  Ew.  Okay, more durable than Miriel, but loses the ability to kill shit, and now fears getting doubled.  Also, if I want a Dark Knight type who hits both defenses, you can breed some pretty scary kids for this purpose who will smoke Ricken.
Maribelle - 3/10.  I have consistently gotten a worse Maribelle than Lissa in 3 games, more so than the stat topic would indicate - maybe Mari's meh base's fault.  Risks both deadly OHKOs & doubles with her HP/DEF/SPD, and her magic is bad enough that Physic / Rescue's range can be a bit shorter than I'd like in the midgame.  Still, staff users can only be so bad.  (Also if you must have combat Maribelle, there's Falcon Knight / Dark Flier for the comedy option, I suppose.  Especially if you can grab a Shockstick.)
Panne - 6/10.  Taguel is not particularly inspiring, starts okay but seems to fade fairly quickly, and no WTA/WTD is actually worse for someone based around dodging.  She does make a very good Wyvern/Griffon Rider if you're willing to spend that early Second Seal on her, though, she ends up Cherche with more speed (and THREE WEAKNESSES if on a Wyvern).  Fears mages no matter what path you take, though.
Gaius - 6/10.  Lon'qu with a rockier start & thief utility.  Sure.
Cordelia - 8/10.  See Sumia, but occasionally won't double (weird!), but has better STR & MAG and thus can go Dark Flier safely not needing the Lancefaire.  Also summons Severa (sigh) which from a strictly mechanical perspective is pretty good.  Is one of the rare adults who is deep aftergame qualified thanks to being able to dip into Sorc for the Vengeance-powered Falcon Knight w/ Tomebreaker & Galeforce.
Gregor - 5/10.  Gregor is run-of-the-miller guy.  Average stats all around, but perfectly serviceable.  Erring to 5 rather than 6 because if he has a potentially weak stat it's speed (bad choice), and there tends to be a lot of strong competition in the sword-users category in your average runthrough.
Nowi - 8/10.  Yes, Nowi's 30/5 stats are comparable to Tiki's L20 stats.  Yes, she risks being doubled, especially without a pair-up.  Yes, it probably violates child abuse laws to send her onto a battlefield.  Doesn't matter.  She's a champion tank in a game that rewards one.  FEA throws too many enemies at you at times, especially in the later half, to try and math out potential survival rates.  Nowi + a halfway decent pair-up (either DEF, SPD, or both) can cheerfully go trot into an enemy horde, draw their fire, and come out alive.  And unlike, say, Kellam/Stahl/Gregor, her weapon naturally has 1-2 range, and her Resistance is good, too.  Finally, even if you don't want to use her seriously, Manakete is a great pair-up, so you can slot-fill with her easily to buff a character while waiting for new recruits.

Libra - 5/10.  Uh, sure, if you got Lissa & Maribelle killed already or something he's ready to go.  Usually think that a Lissa should be barely behind him (L15) by recruit and will be better long-term, though.  And of course all staff users bow to Anna.  His front-lines ability fades later in the game - especially on Lunatic, where he's getting doubled & murdered by everyone a mere 5 chapters later.
Tharja - 9/10.  Tharja has terrible skill, meh resistance, and can be pretty tricky to recruit (especially on Lunatic).  And it doesn't matter because WTF Nosferatu.  What makes the Dark Mages even more amazing is how they hack the AI: the AI, in the absence of a OHKO, wants to inflict the maximum damage possible, but is blind to how Nosferatu works.  So while they'll ignore, say, Manaketes given the opportunity, they'll cheerfully charge the Dark Mages rather than get real damage on the bruisers.
Anna - 7/10.  The ultimate utility character.  Heals, dodges, thiefs, hits both defenses via Levin Sword…  great stuff.
Olivia - 3/10.  Blargh, Dancer in a game where it's more about drawing the enemy out on their turn than striking with your own offense, post C11 certainly.  And if you do use her in an aggro strategy, and somehow something nearby lives, you better hope she dodges despite her massive underlevelness & meh Dancer XP, at least on Classic.  Sure, if you stall for dance dance revolution grinding / EXPonential growth her to Second Seal range, she makes a perfectly valid Peg Knight or Myrmidon, but she still loses points for that initial underlevelness.
Cherche - 6/10.  Hits like a truck, tanks physicals, and eventually gets lance or swordbreaker hax evade for the late game.  Nevertheless, her poor speed makes her choosy in supports, and she fears a lot of enemies (mages / archers / dragonslayers), more so than the Pegasus Knights.  Still fine of course, just have to be careful with her.
Henry - 8/10.  Nya-ha-ha-sferatu hax rides again.  Trades Tharja's skill problem for a speed problem, and a rocky start (whee getting doubled by some enemies on your join map).  But high skill has it uses; he's better than Tharja at killing stuff dead with Waste, for example!
Say'ri - 5/10.  RNG-proof Lon'qu you don't need to grind up (and notably better than Lon'qu on Lunatic).  Loses a point for her extremely needy supports, though - the Avatar or Tiki, both in-demand?  Ack.  Better than the postgame crew on that note, at least.
Tiki - 8/10.  See Nowi, except better stats, fewer missions, and a more restrictive set of potential supports.  Awesome, in other words.
Basilio - 5/10.  Probably great if you're doing a no-grind run, especially a no-grind Classic Ironman run or the like.  Holds up surprisingly well on Lunatic, too, and can use a Killer Bow from the start for those C24 & C25 flyers.  Still, a bit underlevel (especially if you've grinded even a little) & restricted supports = meh.
Flavia - 5/10.  See Basilio.


Lucina - 8/10.  Is Chrom with better stats but a level disadvantage, at worst.  +1 point for various haxy options inherited from mom & aftergame suitability, as Lucina is very easy to build into your most potent offensive tool to kill things dead with thanks to Rightful King + Aether + any other proc.
Owain - 5/10.  Owain's fine.  You can make use of his decent Magic & Resistance as a Trickster or Dark Knight or something, or you can just have Astra & Swordfaire in any beatdown class like Paladin and mock mages with hungering sword hands.  EDIT: Sure I'll dock him a point for parent issues.
Inigo - 4/10.  Inigo's weird.  He's probably a slightly weaker Severa if you're using Dancer Olivia on Casual (and non-existent w/ Dancer Olivia on Classic).  He obviously gets way better if you can give him Galeforce which you are likely getting anyway w/ battle Olivia, although he won't complain about Astra or Swordfaire, but waiting that long leaves perilously little normal game left (since unlike Cynthia/Severa, Olivia is both underleveled AND had to Second Seal on over to get to Dark Flier).  Obviously seems like he'd be pretty good in the aftergame.  EDIT: I still don't know what to make of Inigo.  IF you grind Olivia up a ton for Galeforce and grab him with overleveled parents, he does rock the aftergame, but he's so insanely unlikely to get for the main game, except for maybe late Lunatic w/ grinding.  Call it a 4?  Clearly worse than Severa...
Brady - 2/10.  Underleveled Cleric, woo, when the main thing you care about Clerics is their staff ranking & their magic, and the thing saving them is their high level off of the XP bonus.  Worthless for the normal game, but I suppose if you grind 'em up there's usual broken kid possibilities.  EDIT: Even after grinding him up some, he's still bad.  Yeesh, WTF, Brady.  Down to a 2 you go.
Kjelle - 7/10.  Tank in a game that rewards tanking.  Good pair-up as a Great Knight for a lot of characters who want some extra Str/Def and move, like Lucina or SM Owain.

Cynthia - 8/10.  I might have gotten lucky, but Cynthia has always been awesome for me, sometimes even more so than the Sorcs, which is high praise.  Chrom!Cynthia has Aether and can just murder everything physically, is easy to catch-up, and probably inherits Lancefaire.  Henry!Cynthia on Lunatic inherited Tomebreaker, which was huge, and could be a dangerous magey Dark Flier who hits both defenses and doesn't fear Wind Mages.
Severa - 8/10.  Crazy stats, probably inherits Galeforce, has Armsthrift to be a good legendary weapon wielder.  Probably inherited something useful from dad, too.  Pint-sized murder machine with an inferiority complex.
Gerome - 6/10.  Okay, if Gerome has access to Hero (easy), he can eventually set up the triple Breaker defense, which is kinda cool.  Still, slightly uninspiring growths & speed and mom's fear of archers / mages / weakness-hitters can create some exciting moments when using Gerome.
Morgan - 8/10.  At absolute worst, can be a Rally Spectrum bot.  Otherwise, the Avatar with fewer missions and slightly more restricted support opportunities and the other gender's skill options.
Yarne - 6/10.  Seems like being a kid might give him the raw stats to make Taguel work.  Or he can just Second Seal to something else appropriate before returning.
Laurent - 5/10.  Second seal him to Sorcerer immediately, get Sorc, hurray.  Except he'll get some useful inheritance skill from dad, unlike Miriel (and maybe free Tomefaire from mom).  Even then, kind of uninspiring, which is weird for a Sorc, and he's probably terrible if he goes Dark Knight or Sage.
Noire - 3/10.  Better than Virion in every way except Strength both times I've recruited her.  Unfortunately, the Sniper's time has already passed, so she's still worse.  There's rejuggling her to something totally different a la Brady, but eh.
Nah - 8/10.  See Tiki, pretty much, except a wider set of skill choices thanks to dad.


Gangrel - ?/10.  I have failed to recruit Gangrel twice.  Oh well.  EDIT: Make that three times.
Walhart - 5/10?  His stats are good, so I've used a Conquest-only Walhart just to fill a slot on Rogues & Redeemers 3, which works, I guess.  He magically forgets the Aegis/Pavise/Luna/Rightful King combo he had before, so you have to grind 'em back up if you care about using him for Apotheosis, which I wouldn't due to meh supports.
Emmeryn - 5/10.  Healer with good postgame stats & A-staff ranking basically ready to go.  (Why they decided Miss Peace could zap dudes with Thoron I'm not sure, but not thinking too hard about this one.)
Yen'fay - 5/10.  Analogies: Say'ri is to Lon'qu as Yen'fay is to Say'ri.   Yen'fay has better stats and is even more RNG-proof than Say'ri, yet somehow has even fewer support options as he's Avatar-only.
Aversa - 8/10.  Shadowgift, hell yeah.  The best of the postgame lot by a mile.  Why yes I'll have a Dark Flier with Vengeance, Tomebreaker, Shadowgift, & Galeforce running around Nosferatu / Waste / Brave Lancing dudes as appropriate.
Priam - Byblos/10.  His recruit map is the last stage of the vanilla postgame, so N/A there.  I guess he's mostly ready to go for Apotheosis if you need a slot filled, but I mildly prefer DLC Ike for actually having Aether rather than the Sol/Luna combo.

SpotPass characters - Not my cup of tea/10.  I'm sure it's cool for some people they can make a team entirely of mage girls they met off the Internet, but eh.  The retrogame-specific characters are sort of interesting, but since they're all splayed out in level, you can't really do a Path of Radiance characters runthrough of Awakening or anything.
DLC characters - No supports?  Bleh.  I did use a few for some of the late aftergame missions with very high deploy counts (Rogues & Redeemers 3, Apotheosis).  DLC Catria is kinda ridiculous - Dark Flier w/ Lancefaire, Tomefaire, Galeforce, Astra, great stats, and perfect class choice, so she can easily grab, say, Rally Spectrum as well.  7/10.  DLC Ike has Aether & random other useful stuff.  6/10, there's not much left to use him on but that's solid.

tl;dr: Sorcerers, Dragons, Peg Knights, & Lucina goooood.  Ricken bad.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2013, 12:11:21 AM by SnowFire »

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Rank Characters based on In Game Use: Reboot!
« Reply #805 on: September 05, 2013, 09:19:51 AM »
Ciato and I talked these over as I wrote this because FE nerding is fun and five playthroughs helps for analysis more than 2-3. We rate on the assumption that the player's goal is to beat the game, not to do oodles of optional content. They player should also be striving to beat the game with a minimal amount of grinding. Lots of grinding makes anyone good, and hence makes it difficult to discern differences between characters.

Rankings are based on hard classic.

Chrom: 7/10. Chrom sorta has that Ike9 feel. His stats are good without being great, and there's little about him weapon- or class-wise which is terribly exciting. Prf weapons are neat, and at least he eventually gets 1-2 range (although lacks Ike9's outstanding supports, to complete that comparison). Lategame, if he wants to give up rapier for extra move, paladin is a nice choice (same weapons, similar stats). Sword only until promotion + a weapon rank increase is a bummer but oh well.
Avatar: 9/10. Robin is typically considered the best PC in the game. While I find him/her a bit overrated at times (Veteran gives a few extra levels, not ten or anything silly like that). Speed can be a bit of a problem, but a +speed build helps that out a lot. Still, Robin is really good. Fast-growing mage with decent overall stats, with amazing variety. Grandmaster itself is great, with solid overall stats and eventually Rally Spectrum (Robin can be good even if s/he gets RNG-screwed!). Dark Mage and Nosferatu is obviously very effective as well. And Robin (along with Morgan) is probably the most practical Dark Flyer in the game; lets her use her magic off great speed and mobility. Also can support EVERYONE which is nice, particularly because the game has three "excellent but very limited supports" PCs later.
Lissa: 3/10. Speeding up cleric exp gain was a nice thought, but unfortunately IS decided to kind of crap on Lissa anyway, by creating Libra and Anna, two PCs who join not that far into the game with better stats/weapon ranks than Lissa can ever hope to have.
Frederick: 8.5/10. Frederick is interesting. His trajectory for unit worth, in a vacuum, is comparable to that of Marcus7... which is to say he ages far worse than Seth or Titania. Yet he feels much better than Marcus7 anyway. This is partly because FE13 has a pretty difficult start, so Frederick gets to really shine there. But it's also because no other FE13 PC especially shines early, the way Oswin or Guy (especially HHM) do. He never gets completely worthless; he'll always kill generals well (hammer) and gives solid pair up bonuses. Overall he's an excellent unit despite being so bleh late. (And utterly indispensable on Lunatic, of course.)
Sully: 6.5/10. Good all-around stats and a horse. There... isn't much else to say about her! She's unexciting, but very solid. She's like Kent or Forde, but more solid statistically... no real stat weaknesses that matter. She's generally a bit more of an earlygame PC, as GK/Paladin both lack particularly good skills and generally other PCs catch up on move somewhat.
Virion: 3/10. Virion sucks. Those bases are awful, and he's in a bad class. To give him a little credit, they did do a pretty good job of not letting him get easily outclassed at his niche (no random prepromo with a bow rank until very late), and bad FE13 PCs aren't as bad as many other bad FE PCs because of better overall balance.
Stahl: 5/10. As Miriel noted, he is the averagest. Unlike Sully his stats are lopsided. Tanky horseman is kinda nice, though the speed really isn't. Mostly an earlygame PC. FE13 favours offence over defence later in the game, and you get better defensive PCs anyway (ones who don't run screaming from valkyries and dark fliers). Still, he's a workable all-rounder.
Vaike: 3.5/10. Vaike is somewhat a return to pre-FE9 warriors. Great strength, great HP but not actually durable, blah speed. In fact his speed is just as blah as Stahl's until promotion (and only better then if he goes hero), and he has less move/durability (str gap isn't big enough to care). So he kinda fails to excel as either an offensive or defensive unit.
Miriel: 6/10. As was alluded to with Robin, mages are pretty good in this game again. Their move was fixed, the def/res gap is decent. As such Miriel, with her solid speed and magic, makes a good class cannon, but that def is certainly a problem. Has access to dark mage, which compromises her speed somewhat but really fixes her durability with Nosferatu. Late, there's also the option of valkyrie to gain move and speed. She's not as good as Robin, Morgan, or Tharja, but there's no shame in that.
Sumia: 7.5/10. Fast as hell. Flight is good (despite having more downsides in this FE than most). Her strength isn't great, but thanks to doubling everything she has good offence anyway. Generally works as a specialist for killing fast enemies (who are often dangerous and hard to kill)... valkyries, swordmasters, Gangrel, etc. The pairup system helps her a fair deal... she can ferry low-move people, she can switch to avoid archers, and she gives very valuable stats. Weak support list does hurt a bit though.
What's-his-name: 4/10. Also benefits a lot from pair up, since it can fix his move! But it'd be nice not to have that problem from the start. And he's very slow. Overall definitely feels worse than Stahl, who isn't that much less durable and has a far better package otherwise. Still works as a decent defensive PC for a while, though ultimately will be outclassed by various others.
Lon'qu: 5/10. He's... a lot like Sumia with no pegasus (a big part of what makes Sumia good)? And much less res and no lances, which weirdly matter for some of the units they both want to troubleshoot. He has a lot more trouble finding a niche, as such.
Donnel: 2.5/10. I'll give Donnel one thing; at least he actually has a payoff. This is more than many units of his type can claim. That said he's still pretty bad. Panne's a better option if you want to feel like you're cheating with an early second seal. The most efficient way to use him is probably just to make him a pure support for some woman in your army who likes 'em young, and pop out a more usable kid with his awesome ability.
Ricken: 3/10. Bad. What's up with that speed? He's not nearly defensive enough to make up for it... heck, Tharja is similar while having dark magic and real speed! Never mind Henry, if you really want a slow tank mage.
Maribelle: 3.5/10. Having a pony makes her better than Lissa. Unfortunately Libra/Anna still kick her ass. So a bit better than Lissa, but not much.
Panne: 7/10. Taguel's a bad class, but Panne is good anyway. You can use her as a weird myrmidon variant who eventually falls behind a little due to weaker weapon options late, or you can second seal her into wyvern knight where she has dumb stats and incredible mobility. I'm not sure how much I want to reward her for this since there are other PCs who want an early second seal, but it's hard to argue with the reward for little effort.
Gaius: 5/10. Lon'qu with a worse start but with some cool thiefy things. Balances out to... similar.
Cordelia: 7.5/10. Alternate Sumia. She's slower, and despite being distinctively fast herself this definitely matters! Doesn't troubleshoot certain classes as well. But dang, her stats otherwise. Nice strength, okay durability. She avoids 2HKOs much more than Sumia and does kill some things Sumia doesn't.
Gregor: 4.5/10. Like Vaike, he... doesn't really excel at much. I always find myself comparing him to Lon'qu and preferring the latter, despite the latter being unspecial. Gregor is still better than Vaike - he's not as slow, and gives better pair up bonuses, for instance. The merc tree feels very uninspiring as well.
Nowi: 5/10. She has a rough start, but if she gets rolling, she becomes a very solid defensive unit; basically impenetrable. Unfortunately Nowi always has pretty crappy offence. And there's a better manakete who is good from the start. She's not bad, certainly, but I can't bring myself to be super-impressed by her. Weird case.
Libra: 7/10. Healer! With good offence for a while, and good durability for a fair bit longer! By the end he's pretty crappy stat-wise, but hey, even at the end he's not really any worse than Lissa/Maribelle are for the whole game. Isn't quite the utility god Anna is, but still an excellent unit.
Tharja: 8.5/10. Tharja is outstanding. Probably the best PC on this list who doesn't rely on weird intangibles like Robin or Frederick, she's just a straight-up great combat unit who joins at average party levels and kicks ass forever. Decent durability, good speed (especially for her slug-like class), good magic, and Nosferatu spam just lays waste to things while keeping her safe. She has two weak stats but they are minor stats with so many ways to fix... Anathema, adjacenet units are +20 hit right there, Goddess Icons are low-demand stat boosters, etc. Dark magic rocks, she has good stats and has access to it with no shenanigans.
Anna: 8/10. She has some disadvantages on Libra... mostly the lower staff rank and a bit lower concrete durability. But she has many advantages on him: mobility, speed (Libra gets doubled later), evasion (especially once she picks up Lucky Seven). And midgame she even beats down problem enemies with the Levin Sword. So she's significantly better than Libra. Who is already good.
Olivia:  2.5/10. Ciato and I agree about most things when it comes to FE unit worth, but we disagree on dancers. I think they're outstanding units, she thinks they're pretty bad (the GBA ones, at least). But we both agree Olivia is hugely problematic. She's way too fragile; lots of things one-round her. Unlike most frail units you can't pair her up or you're using TWO units to give one unit an extra turn, which spits on dancer action economy. And by the time she joins you have more than enough staff users so there's little reason to double their actions specifically, for instance. And in a game with ninja reinforcements, that durability is just extra problematic. She has combat but it's not worth discussing.
Cherche: 6/10. Stop. Hammertime. The nice thing about Cherche is she joins around the time you want to start easing off Frederick, so suddenly there's an axe niche which needs to be filled. She also has the good grace to start on a map filled with hammer-bait so she can get started easily. Otherwise, she's Vaike on a wyvern with way more defence and... slightly more speed and... no real stat disadvantages worth talking about. She's still not amazing since "more speed than Vaike" is still pretty slow; the pegasus knights are definitely better. But she's pretty good.
Henry: 4.5/10. After lots of failed attempts (Ilyana, Sanaki, Ricken) at slow mages, they finally made one that actually works. He'd be ridiculous outside speed: magic, defence, skill(!!), HP, you name it. Unfortunately the speed is... definitely bad. Getting doubled does kinda ruin Nosferatu-tanking pretty badly, his def is good but not good enough to deal with that. Henry's problems are pronounced enough, and he himself late enough, that it's hard to enough the competition from second seals for his awesome nosferatu role. Though you can argue you can never have enough.
Say'ri: 6.5/10. Say'ri is hilariously better than Lon'qu in almost every way (not speed or skill! Yeah she's still fast enough for virtually all purposes, unlike Cordelia). She's defensively solid for such a fast/dodgy unit, has good strength and is in a good class which blossoms well late (Astra, Swordfaire, Amatsu). So basically by using her you skip all the bad parts of Lon'qu and get right to the ass-kicking. Her limited supports are a flaw but are mitigated by the fact that she supports Tiki, who wants her badly.
Tiki: 8/10. Tiki's decent until Level 30. Tank, can expect to be about where Nowi was without any raising. But could be better, certainly. Then she "promotes" and becomes some sort of monster because her stats go nuts. Won't die ever, suddenly gets pretty good offence. Tank the world and seriously weak everything you don't kill, mop up, win.
Basilio: 5/10. Oh hey, there's that bow rank prepromo! With that monstrous strength he can just one-shot pegs and double wyverns, so he's great against flyers. He also crushes generals of course. Not too great otherwise, but at least he's modestly durable. Joining late with no supports is a bummer, though.
Flavia: 5/10. Basilio who lacks his niches (beyond killing generals, though she's not quite as good at it), but with better stats. I'm not sure if her better overall makes up for what Basilio does to certain problematic enemy types. I think sliiightly worse but it's close.

Many kids are worse versions of their mothers, with a few exceptions. They're underlevelled, and often hard to recruit due to being in maps which aren't easily defeated until mid-Valm at the earliest. Being that underlevelled that late means either you suck until you promote, or you promote immediately and waste the child niche of theoretically having good stats for their level.

Lucina: 7.5/10. She has a bit of slow start though obviously the least slow of the kids by definition. Once she gets rolling though, woof. Sumia (speed!) or Robin (Veteran!) are both amazing mothers, and they're two of the only three she's likely to have (Sully, the third, isn't bad either). She quickly grows into Chrom plus a bunch of speed and with a free invincible healing wyvern-slaying Silver Sword. She beats her father for enough of the game that I do think she's a bit better overall.

Owain: 2/10.
Inigo: 2/10.
Brady: 1/10.
These characters have several problems. First of all, they are the children of healers/dancers, neither of whom pair up well; they make awful pair up partners in both directions (they can't support attack, AND they barely need stats from a pairup partner themselves). They also have bad stats and pass said bad stats onto their children, particularly str for Owain/Inigo. Brady meanwhile, is only notable as crappy healer (seriously, D rank?!?), behind Anna, Libra, AND the Maribelle you've presumably used.
Kjelle: 5/10. One of the easier kids to recruit for a number of reasons. Knight isn't a good class, but once she graduates to a better class (Great Knight most easily) she'll likely have very solid stats.
Cynthia: 6/10. Has the usual kid problems but she's very fast and very mobile which helps. Speed + Aether (if she gets it) works pretty well, and can fill in as a decent Falcon Knight. She's a bit problematic if her father isn't Chrom (or Robin) but eh, she can manage.
Severa: 4/10. I'm not terribly sold on her stats considering her problems as a child character. She's a good rallier with certain parents, such as Kellam or Vaike. Rally Speed+Def or Speed+Str? Not that much worse than Spectrum, and you'll have it earlier.
Gerome: 3.5/10 Pretty hard to get even for a kid character, worse version of Cherche not really exciting.
Morgan: 7/10. Easlly the best of the optional kid characters. Robin is probably the most in-demand parent, and Morgan has him/her for sure. Especially devastating if passed good magic/speed, since his/her build leans towards being a powerhouse mage/sorcerer/dark flyer/etc.
Yarne: 5.5/10. Good stats, but taguel sucks. Sounds a lot like Panne. Again you should probably switch him to another class, but E ranks hurt even more later in the game. Still reasonably solid by kid PC standards.
Laurent: 4.5/10. Another mage. If raised he is certainly better than Ricken. Is Miriel so good that you need an alternate version of her? Probably not, but he's an okay option.
Noire: 2.5/10. Archers are bad, and Tharja isn't going to be passing much strength down to her. Better than the trio of bad male kids because at least Tharja is a good PC who pairs up easily. But worse than Virion because man she doesn't even have Virion's niche.
Nah: 3.5/10. Has an unusually difficult joining map, which means she's probably not joining any earlier than Tiki, who is obviously superior. Plus you're already using Nowi and she's probably near the point of super-promotion. edit: that said she pans out pretty well it seems.



Gangrel
Walhart
Emmeryn
Yen'fay
Aversa
Priam

Pass on all of these.


Also I second the notion that this game is decently balanced overall. We scored the PCs from 1 to 9 to emphasise the differences but if we were using the same scale as most games, it would be a bit tighter most likely.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2013, 06:15:47 AM by Dark Holy Elf »

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Random Consonant

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Re: Rank Characters based on In Game Use: Reboot!
« Reply #806 on: September 05, 2013, 10:22:18 AM »
Chrom: Ike9 really the point of comparison here, yes.  7/10, he's not particularly amazing but he doesn't offend in any area (except range I *guess*).
Avatar: Has all the options, all of them.  9/10
Lissa: Hello token sucky staffbot.  3/10
Frederick: Smacks the earlygame around.  Falls off like a rock later, which is a shame, but that early game performance is still worth something like 7.5/10 because this isn't 2004.
Sully: Unexciting yet acceptable.  6/10.
Virion: ruffles why are you the only one with a bow rank for a long time and why do you suck so bad.  2/10.
Stahl: He is in the 50th percentile of everything.  okay not really but boring yet semi-okay.  5/10
Vaike: Does not fill me with the carings.  3/10.
Miriel: Gets the science done.  And by science I mean blowing up dudes.  Too bad about being made of moist toilet paper.  6.5/10
Sumia: Evidently they learned from FE11/12 and made pegasus knight weakness hilariously relevent.  Still good despite that.  7.5/10
Kellam: yeah this is char rankings, not really gonna go along with the running gag here.  That said, armor knights do not fill me with the carings, and Kellam isn't actually that amazing at it anyways.  3/10.
Lon'qu: Uninspiringly okay.  5/10.
Donnel: he may have a payoff but that fails to make me care.  1/10
Ricken: ILYANA IS THAT YOU?  2/10
Maribelle: uh she has a pony.  3.5/10
Panne: Sure, reclassing to Wyvern Rider hype.  6/10
Gaius: Hi thief lonqu.  5/10
Cordelia: Hi sumia alt.  7.5/10
Gregor: Gregor is sadly mediocre.  4/10.
Nowi: Can tank but that's about it.  At least she has range, unlike Kellam.  4/10.
Libra: Hi staffbot that actually has a period of not embarrasing himself at everything.  6/10.
Tharja: you know the deal here.  8/10.
Anna: a staffbot and a door opener.  What an amazing concept, really.  Only took 13 games.  7/10.
Olivia: and this is how you put a dancer into DO NOT WANT territory.  2/10.
Cherche: hi wyvern meido please smash these guys and please don't get one-rounded by ninja HM valkyries while you're at it.  6/10
Henry: Sadly Henry is not that great.  4/10
Say'ri: hi better lonqu alt.  6/10
Tiki: hi better nowi alt hi level 30 hi second seal and suddenly what is this i don't even.  8/10
Basilio: Has his uses.  5/10.
Flavia: Is okay.  5/10.

Lucina: Is kind of nutty.  8/10.

Owain
Inigo
Brady
Kjelle
Cynthia
Severa
Gerome
Morgan
Yarne
Laurent
Noire
Nah

Gangrel
Walhart
Emmeryn
Yen'fay
Aversa
Priam


Abstain on the non-Lucina children, too much of a headache, if I had to care at all I'd assess Cynthia/Morgan/Kjelle at most.  DNR the "aftergame" folks for obvious reasons.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2013, 06:33:01 AM by Random Consonant »

Reiska

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Re: Rank Characters based on In Game Use: Reboot!
« Reply #807 on: September 05, 2013, 11:12:27 AM »
Oh boy, here we go.  I'm rating characters based on Hard Casual for what it's worth, with the assumption that some DLC is done (including paid DLC) and grinding is not off limits but is not done to extremes either; however, I will note some instances where conditions vastly change scores from Hard Casual.

Chrom: 7/10.  He's good, and one of the better FE lords overall, I think, but he's got a shallow class pool for reclassing shenanigans and he's not so great that he can't get stat-screwed (it's just pretty uncommon).

Robin: 10/10.  Seriously.  Holy crap she translates badly to the DL but in-game... Veteran is one of (if not THE) most broken skill in the game, access to almost every class allows absolutely ridiculous combinations of skills that most PCs can't assemble, and even without reclassing Tactician/Grandmaster is a pretty excellent class.  That said she's "only" a 9 or a 10 without a reclass.

Lissa: 4/10.  She's only that high because she's your only healer for the first five maps, and the next one you get isn't really appreciably better.  I've never seen her turn out especially well, either, she has some of the worst growths in FE13 (for all that in any other FE game, she'd be a pretty good PC, just not here).  Completely obsoleted by Libra and Anna.

Frederick: 5/10.  Decently helpful early on, but I'd peg him as definitely weaker than Seth and probably weaker than Marcus as well; he feels like he has a definite expiration date for combat use, although he holds up for a long while still as a pair-up partner.  Rating goes up a lot in Lunatic mode where he's absolutely essential to being able to get anywhere at all, even though he still expires there.

Sully: 7/10.  Good but not great early cavalier.  Tends to be the better of the two on her own merits.  Not much else to say about her.

Virion: 2/10, and he only gets those points for being entertaining in his plot scenes.  Mechanically he's trash, and grinding doesn't really save him - if you really want an archer, there are better archers via reclassing (hell, Chrom).

Stahl: 6/10.  See Sully.  I'd switch their ratings in Lunatic as Stahl's peculiar strengths seem to be better than Sully's there and Stahl has better long-term utility as a pair-up partner than Sully by quite a bit.  As usual for red/green cavalier pair, though, the two of them are pretty much "use whichever one turns out better."

Vaike: 5/10.  Okay.  Needs a reclass to Berserker ASAP to really perform, but there are generally better things to do with early Second Seals.  He does pay off if you do it in my experience though.

Miriel: 6/10.  Has a pretty shaky start, is good when you work past it, and she can (and should) reclass to Dark Mage/Sorcerer.  SF's comment about the balance of glass vs. cannon being off is fairly apt.

Sumia: 7/10.  Much of what I said about Chrom applies here; her class pool is lousy for reclassing, she's a bit vulnerable to Str screwing.  She cares less than Chrom about the former, though, because she has Pegasus Knight.  I generally find Cordelia to be more useful on average, but the two are more or less interchangeable.  Restricted support options hurt her a bit.  Still, pegknight.

Kellam: 3/10.  Okay pairup bait I guess, not much good at anything else, Nowi and arguably Stahl perform his main trick just as well.

Lon'qu: 6/10.  Less useful than average for an early myrmidon in my opinion, largely because he feels notably less durable than most of them in practice.  Certainly usable though, makes a good pair-up partner.

Donnel: With him, I really have to go more in depth, because he is SO dependent on difficulty settings and the amount of grinding you're willing to do.  *If* you're willing to grind him out of villager, he's a 10/10, because his stats are basically stupid as soon as he reclasses out at villager 10 and they only keep getting more stupid.  If you're not willing to grind him, or you're playing on Lunatic in general, he's 0/10 and not even worth recruiting IMO.

Ricken: 2/10 for bringing you your first Elwind tome.  Doesn't have Dark Mage, very clearly worse than Miriel (and Miriel already has a bad start).  If he didn't bring Elwind he'd be 0.

Maribelle: 3/10.  Lissa with a bit of extra movement and worse stats five maps later.

Panne: 9/10.  Good right when she joins as Taguel, gets nuts with a level 10 reclass to Wyvern Rider.  I can't recommend her enough, she's a staple in my teams.

Gaius: 5/10.  Worse Lon'qu with thief utility who joins right before a much better thief.  Only gets this many points because of supports.

Cordelia: 8/10, see Sumia, except she can sometimes get Spd screwed instead of Str.  Has less difficulty patching stat holes than Sumia does because she has unrestricted supports.  Pegknight.

Gregor: 5/10, mostly for how entertaining he is in cutscenes, as his mechanical properties are again worse than Lon'qu.  Keeps Nowi alive in C8, that's an in-game use I guess.

Nowi: 9/10, and this is probably going to be my controversial rating here.  I'm of the opinion she needs very minimal actual babying/grinding to get to a functional level - she should be able to pick up a level or two in her join chapter, then armed with a couple Concoctions she can easily tank large portions of Paralogue 4 with an appropriate pair-up (Kellam or Gaius or Gregor or Lon'qu are the best options, IMO) and quickly catch up in levels.  She never doubles much of anything without some RNG luck or abusive pair-ups (Gaius might get her there), but she has some of the most ridiculous enemy phase combat you can get in this game without Nosferatu, and this game favors enemy phase even more than usual for various reasons.  Dragonstones being 1-2 range really help her.

Libra: 7/10.  Pretty much categorically better than Lissa despite being a prepromote.  His combat isn't even bad for a while. 

Tharja: 10/10.  Buyable Nosferatu, all I have to say.  Her start is much less shaky than Miriel's.  Feed her secret books, no one else wants them.

Anna: 7/10.  Better Gaius that also has staff utility although she starts with a bad rank.  Not bad!  Probably worth an arms scroll to speed up her staff rank.

Olivia: 3/10.  I'm not a big dancer fan and don't really understand people who hype them, maybe I just don't get the finer points of dance tactics.  I guess if you do really complicated bullshit with rescue staff chains but whatever, not my cup of tea.

Cherche: 6/10.  I like her a lot as a character but she is just not as good as either of the pegasus knights.  She's probably the best first generation non-reclassed axe user with actual availability though. 

Henry: 5/10.  Most of those points are for his personality, buyable Nosferatu really cannot save starting Speed that bad, especially when he joins later than Tharja.  I mean, doubled by your join chapter?  No.

Say'ri: 6/10.  Perfectly acceptable substitute for Lon'qu, only drawback compared to him is shallow supports.  However, she supports Tiki, and Tiki benefits from her support in SPADES.

Tiki: 10/10.  Everything I said about Nowi also applies to her, only she's great right out of the box.

Basilio: shrug/10.  Never used him.  Decent endgame filler if you lost all your axe users.

Flavia: shrug/10.  Never used her, decent endgame filler.  Probably the better of her and Basilio.

Children PCs: The usefulness of non-Lucina, non-Morgan children PCs in general is heavily tied to your grinding level and intent to do DLC, particularly the DLC maps that go into harder-than-endgame territory.  Children PCs have generally much more diverse skill options (as SF noted, the majority of the first generation cast simply cannot hack it in deep aftergame).  Catching most of them up in maingame without a modicum of grinding, however, is difficult at best (a few exceptions do exist).

Lucina: 8/10.  Better version of her father in every way, unless you stick her with Maribelle as a mother or something, and even then it's pretty impossible for her to be worse than her father. 

Morgan: 9/10.  The only reason Morgan is a point lower than Robin is because Morgan doesn't have the length of playtime Robin does to really flex the broken, since Morgan's potential is obviously higher with moderate grind.

Most of the others I'd simply peg as -1 or -2 points from their mothers, really, based on the criteria I gave above.  Noire is probably the best archer in the game if you actually want one, for what it's worth.  Actually wanting one is dubious though.

« Last Edit: September 06, 2013, 12:10:25 AM by Reiska »

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Rank Characters based on In Game Use: Reboot!
« Reply #808 on: September 05, 2013, 04:51:04 PM »
Reiska: I'm not sure if there's going to be any "official" count of this, but if there is, you should know that scores above 10 are counted as a 10, so if you actually want to highlight the difference between Robin and Morgan (and I'd argue you should, but obviously that's your call) you should drop the latter below 10.

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Meeplelard

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Re: Rank Characters based on In Game Use: Reboot!
« Reply #809 on: September 05, 2013, 07:26:00 PM »
I'll count the votes up if people show actual interest in the topic again; when, I have no clue, but yeah, I can legitimately revive it.  People do need to actually make some effort at posting, and just going "blech, I don't like that cast!" is exactly a great way to kill the topic (I do fully acknowledge that doing all of Suikoden was possibly a bad idea though.)
[21:39] <+Mega_Mettaur> so Snow...
[21:39] <+Mega_Mettaur> Sonic Chaos
[21:39] <+Hello-NewAgeHipsterDojimaDee> That's -brilliant-.

[17:02] <+Tengu_Man> Raven is a better comic relief PC than A

Luther Lansfeld

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Re: Rank Characters based on In Game Use: Reboot!
« Reply #810 on: September 05, 2013, 09:22:10 PM »
no, insisting on making people rate boring things is the way to kill the topic >_>
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Re: Rank Characters based on In Game Use: Reboot!
« Reply #811 on: September 05, 2013, 09:46:14 PM »
Rate every single Pokemon by gen plz
NO MORE POKEMON - Meeplelard.
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Meeplelard

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Re: Rank Characters based on In Game Use: Reboot!
« Reply #812 on: September 05, 2013, 09:49:34 PM »
no, insisting on making people rate boring things is the way to kill the topic >_>
'

I acknowledged Suikoden was a bad idea!  But there were some people who weren't voting even after complaining about things like "I can't vote on that" and I specifically put something that I knew they were interested in and they still didn't vote (not naming people, but there were people who did that.)

Pokemon...I'd only do that if there really was a large amount of requests for it...for obvious reasons...and then some <_<
[21:39] <+Mega_Mettaur> so Snow...
[21:39] <+Mega_Mettaur> Sonic Chaos
[21:39] <+Hello-NewAgeHipsterDojimaDee> That's -brilliant-.

[17:02] <+Tengu_Man> Raven is a better comic relief PC than A

SnowFire

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Re: Rank Characters based on In Game Use: Reboot!
« Reply #813 on: September 05, 2013, 10:36:43 PM »
What Ciato said.  But you pointed it out yourself already, so I think we're all on the same page.  (There are exceptions where reanalyzing a game makes sense, of course - I'm sure that people's impressions of FF5 classes changed a bunch once 4JF started running, for example.  But that cast is smaller than all the Suikos.)  Anyway, I appreciate the offer Meeple, but I got this one for totaling the stats (if needed).  IIRC, you use Hatbot to calculate the rankings; I'm not a fan (even ignoring the fact it's a lot of work!) because that tends to freeze the ratings at the time and lock people out from contributing to old games because it'd be a pain to recalc.  (For all that this topic is really about an excuse to talk about the game not to find the One True Ranking anyway.)  Just stick everything in a Google Docs spreadsheet and use the magical "Average" function, problem solved (aside from the initial data entry).  Easy to add new rankings if need be, too, can't be lost when moving between computers, etc.  There are a reasonable number of interesting games to pick from that have actual interest that have not been ranked, which I'd be happy to put up as well.  (LFT classes, Mother 3, etc.).

Since it's rag on Meeple hour apparently (in all seriousness, we do appreciate the work you did in maintaining the thread before), Meeple got on people's cases before for how they voted, threw out rankings that weren't serious enough, wanted everyone to use a strict 10 point scale and not use decimals, etc.  I hinted at this in the post above, but I am going to explicitly state that is not how I do things.  Rankings are subjective personal analyses.  This is a safe space for your nerdy thoughts if you want to share them.  If you think Cyan is a 10/10 character, you're weird, but that's your opinion and more power to you.  So there is absolutely no problem with "I irrationally love Character X and play the game in such a way that X is great, 11/10 character of the year stand back GameFAQs."  If you give silly rankings, awesome, just non-numerical ones might get left out of the spreadsheet. :)

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Rank Characters based on In Game Use: Reboot!
« Reply #814 on: September 05, 2013, 10:45:53 PM »
Well, I would strongly suggest you do continue the cap of 0-10 on ratings, if nothing else. Otherwise it would be simple for someone to come along and say "Jogurt is obviously the greatest character of all time, 99/10" and suddenly he ends up with a high score. (Of course people are free to post 11/10 ratings to show strong feelings, just for averaging purposes they should defiitely be capped IMO.)

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Maybe.

Meeplelard

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Re: Rank Characters based on In Game Use: Reboot!
« Reply #815 on: September 05, 2013, 10:49:21 PM »
Quote
Since it's rag on Meeple hour apparently (in all seriousness, we do appreciate the work you did in maintaining the thread before), Meeple got on people's cases before for how they voted, threw out rankings that weren't serious enough, wanted everyone to use a strict 10 point scale and not use decimals, etc.  I hinted at this in the post above, but I am going to explicitly state that is not how I do things.  Rankings are subjective personal analyses.  This is a safe space for your nerdy thoughts if you want to share them.  If you think Cyan is a 10/10 character, you're weird, but that's your opinion and more power to you.  So there is absolutely no problem with "I irrationally love Character X and play the game in such a way that X is great, 11/10 character of the year stand back GameFAQs."  If you give silly rankings, awesome, just non-numerical ones might get left out of the spreadsheet. :)

The joke thing was because there were a number of people in a previous iteration of the topic that were doing crap like this, in addition to people like OK trying to be cute but weren't.  Also, I never said "don't use decimals", I said "don't be obnoxious about them."

There are people who rate things drastically and are serious about it; trust me, we've seen this a lot in the previous topic, and I am going to count them.  Yet, when we have a gameplay discussion, and people go "I deduct 2 points because this character has a bad personality!" in a topic all about gameplay...you can see why I took that stance.  I understand you don't care as much, but everyone should at least be something similar to the same page.

"I played the game this way and they were great!" is legitimate subjective way to look at the character...I won't deny that.  Play-style is what allows these things.  Yet, outright saying "I know this character is great, but I hate their personality, so I deduct points from them as a result!" is...yeah.  Not to mention someone in this topic outright deducted points from a character just because people were "overrating them" (this led to someone else actually adding the exact same number of points to the character purposely to offset it <_<); this is no longer gameplay discussion, it's just trolling and sniping at others.  That's why ground rules are sometimes needed.  If you want to do things your way, by all means go ahead.

Also, back then, for the anti-decimal thing (at least beyond the 10ths place) was because of two things that have since changed.  One is unfamiliarity with Spread Sheets (I've since gotten at least a little familiar with them that I could pull it off), as well as Hal did create the "!avg" function which gets the Average nonsense done for me as is.  Back when I use to do this, that wasn't available at first (Hal created it mid-way), so I had to count them manually (if there was an easier way, no one told me it!), and having a "6.125" in the mix can really fudge with counting.


Honestly, I was thinking of continuing this topic as is, just ending Suikoden where it stands (as I said, BAD IDEA on my end), and if people really wanted to recast something, they'd say it.  People can still vote on older games (as Random did with Wild ARMs), even if it ends up not being counted, people like to express their thoughts.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2013, 10:53:05 PM by Meeplelard »
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Luther Lansfeld

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Re: Rank Characters based on In Game Use: Reboot!
« Reply #816 on: September 05, 2013, 11:23:40 PM »
Well Elfboy and I had long discussions which has most of my thoughts... so...

Fire Emblem: Awakening

Chrom 7 he's ike(9), for god's sake he even has AETHER
Avatar 9 speed is a bit of a problem but otherwise top notch
Lissa 2.5 oh for fuck's sake she gets credit for being the only healer early?
Frederick 8.5 Jeigan OIFEY OF FE13 LOL
Sully 7 hey i'm kent with better stats
Virion 2.5 hey i'm wil without better stats
Stahl 5.5 hey i'm sain with high def?
Vaike 3 continuing the proud tradition of slow and bad FE axe dudes
Miriel 6.5 ~ all the science you don't understand
it's just her job seven days a week~
Sumia 7.5 they do a decent job of trying to emphasize the weakness of the pegs but that speed is so huge for killing valkyries and other fast enemies
Kellam 4 a solid unit mired in bad move and low offense
Lon'qu 5 kinda like sumia without flying and a worse weapon type for dealing with the fast enemies
Donnel 2 make the babby wittle boy
Ricken 2.5 a better ewan. ricken shouldn't be a better anyone.
Maribelle 2.5 horse vs. early game niche for her vs. lissa
Panne 7 an oddball character, second seal candidate and generally a better lon'qu if you get her going
Gaius 5 he and lon'qu are two sides of the same coin
Cordelia 7.5 in general i value sumia's speed more sometimes and cord's str/def more sometimes, balances out
Gregor 4 tankier than vaike but also a bit too slow
Nowi 4.5 time to go into a frothy moral panic, no, not a bathing suit, 0/10
Libra 7 mari and lissa i'm real happy for you and I'm gonna let you finish but libra is better than ya'll in every way. including at a beauty contest
Tharja 9 nos tank that is fast? yes plz
Anna 8 wait wait wait you just gave me a character to replace lissa and mari that is even better than libra. game... balance?
Olivia 2 dancers are low move units which rely on people being close to them in the best of times, in the worst of times you have a getting OHKOed machine like Olivia
Cherche 6 tankier than thou
Henry 4 a good attempt at the slow mage build but a tad too slow
Say'ri 7 doubles pretty much everything and can take care of herself durability wise
Tiki 8 a walking tank with decent offense
Basilio 5 is a specialist at the murder of low def fliers and generals
Flavia 5 is a more solid PC than Basilio statistically but low def flyer killing is definitely a niche to have late game

I am mean to children. *rides off on a broom*

Lucina 7.5
Owain 1
Inigo 1
Brady 0.5
Kjelle 5
Cynthia 5.5
Severa 3
Gerome 3
Morgan 6
Yarne 5
Laurent 3.5
Noire 2
Nah 2
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Random Consonant

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Re: Rank Characters based on In Game Use: Reboot!
« Reply #817 on: September 06, 2013, 12:12:42 AM »
That reminds me, I never played catchup ratings for G3/MK1/SH1/SH2 :v.

Mana Khemia:
Vayne Aurelius: Good crowd control and the stats don't offend.  Also has SLPHR PLS which is handy. 7/10.
Jessica Philomele: Timed card healing is pretty good.  Doesn't inspire much on either the durability or the damage front but she doesn't really have to much.  6/10.
Nicole Mimi Tithel: At least she's fast and has non-SP offense.  Non-SP offense is kind of a pain though.  6/10.
Flay Gunnar: Hello boss damage.  6/10.
Pamela Ibis: Pretty much all her worth is lategame.  I guess giving her Common Skills makes her better for warm body purposes but even then she doesn't inspire.  3.5/10
Roxis Rosenkrantz: Also has a rough start, but doesn't go on for as long as Pamela's and he's still better off the bat due to actually having a skillset that doesn't kill him, and is much better once he gets going.  7/10.
Anna Lemouri: GT ID attached to damage affords her a randombusting niche, and she does have a weird speed/switching game, but the raw offense doesn't inspire.  5/10.
Muppy Oktavia Vondercheck VII: Start with some fucking AP next time you damn tadpole.  D-Support is excellent but it's still three chapters down the line from when he joins and he pretty much doesn't have anything else going for him.  3/10.

Shadow Hearts:
Yuri Volte Hyuga: Yuri kind of needed to have MT from the word go to justify a 10 to me, but good lord that is some grade-A manhandling of puny game.  9.5/10.
Alice Elliot: Battery healing forever, SH1 really is the Yuri/Alice comedy tour.  6/10.
Zhuzhen Liu: The worst of the warm bodies, hello terrible stats and terrible skillset.  3/10.
Margarete Gertrude Zelle: The most balanced of the warm bodies, but slapfights for Zhuzhen for worst skillset.  4/10.
Keith Valentine: The most durable of the warm bodies, has theorhetical quirks but so hard to care.  4/10.
Halley Brancket: The fastest of the warm bodies, but only marginally so compared to Margarete.  Still, he's essentially the last one to have forced segments which means he'll be ahead of the level curve and his skillset is basically the best of the four in practice.  4.5/10

Shadow Hearts Covenant:
Karin Koenig: Solid all-rounder, Geuschbenst is good for combos.  6/10.
Nicholai Conrad: No.
Yuri Hyuga: Less overly powerful compared to the first game, but incredibly more versatile.  Energy Charge is kind of dumb and he at least can pick up the most useful Arc buffs around the same time as they become available to others (whether or not getting them ASAP is a good idea, however isn't something I'll comment on).  Admittedly if I weren't sticking to the closest half-point he'd rate lower than Yuri1 anyways, but I am so 9.5/10 it is.
Gepetto: oh wow it's zhuzhen with an even worse skillset.  3/10.
Blanca: Karin variant, trading some physical power and durability (I believe) for some more magic and speed.  However this doesn't let him meaningfully outperform Karin against randoms and the unique skillset blows for the longest time (ewwwww Soul Comet) making him an inferior choice against bosses.  4/10.
Joachim Valentine: Joachrythyms so aren't worth hyping, gtfo gold bat.  Beyond that he brings poor randombusting stats but acquits himself well enough against bosses.  4.5/10
Lucia: Strike booster effect is a winmore in practice (as in if you're good enough at the ring to care about it in the first place, the game's pretty much already had a fork stuck in it) and none of her other aromatherapy options are worth caring enough about to justify a slot on the team, particularly since she has too many junk options as is.  At least she's a decent mage but she doesn't bring much to the table boss-wise.  4/10.
Anastasia Romanov: Best pure mage doesn't say much, but at least snaps and getting the most worthwhile-in-practice skillset of the pure mages raises her to an average score.  5/10.
Kurando Inugami: Bad for a dungeon and then becomes Yuri-lite.  8/10.
Ouka: Non.
Raiden: Nein.
Hien: Nyet.

Grandia 3:
Yuki: Whirlwind, but otherwise he's pretty average.  5.5/10
Miranda: Jeigan, leaves as she starts to suck.  5/10.
Alfina: The more durable of the two mages and the better one in practice, being able to restore SP is a plus.  7/10.
Alonso: Bad for most of his existence.  Picks up once he gets better equipment but by then he's about ready to leave.  3/10.
Ulf: Line target cancel is something at least, though that's pretty much all he has over Yuki in the specials department.  4/10.
Dahna: The more damaging of the two mages, but pretty frail and her specials are kind of junk.  6/10.
Hect: I guess she's around for enough time.  7/10.

VySaika

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Re: Rank Characters based on In Game Use: Reboot!
« Reply #818 on: September 06, 2013, 03:58:51 AM »
WARNING!! WARNING!!
Gate pays no attention to how they are "supposed" to end up on average, only to how they wound up for me(or extrapolating how they would have been had I done less optional content) and how much I value that kind of party role/general build. I do not even know what people's growths ARE. So if my opinions vary wildly, well, there you go.

Chrom - 8/10. Very good, great skills, great class, solid amount of support options with largely good characters. Strong enough that forged javelins work just fine after promotion and getting from E to D is not hard.
Avatar - 10/10. Options/10.
Lissa - 4/10. Not great, but I do love me some storebought Rescue Staff spamming, so she doesn't actually fall far behind on levels. Hard to pair off if you're not expressly doing randoms/DLC/etc for it, though, so minus points there.
Frederick - 8/10. He's more of a 7 to me, but when I get around to seriously trying Lunatic, I know I will have to crutch on him so hard it's not even funny. Also, being a Jeigan is less terrible here as he has pair-up to keep him viable late giving his pair up bonuses and Support Defend+ to whoever he's with.
Sully - 7/10. Solid cav, but not fantastic. Does the job, and has a great daughter at least, but I find she's often just shy of the strength or speed she needs to kill shit on her own. Makes great pair-up bait though.
Virion - 6/10. Okay, I dunno about the average Virion, but in my runs he has been amazing....after gaining some levels. Start is rough, though. I'll leave it at that, since I clearly got RNG blessed Archest of Archers.
Stahl - 4/10. Stahl...has problems. I like him anyway, but he just feels too slow, not quite durable enough, and just a bit overall lacking. While Sully, his rival Cav, and Kellam, his rival tank, can get shit done without pair-up...Stahl really feels like he needs it too much.
Vaike - Vaike/10(okay, 4/10). Stahl, trading the ability to sometimes survive hits for the ability to sometimes kill things. Also, if you want a Berserker and don't feel like making Robin it, he's your only real choice until kids. Hey, IS, stop making the Berserker line either hard to access(only one Ocean Seal~), or terrible(prepromo only~), or both.
Miriel - 5/10. Feels like the baseline for mages in this game.
Sumia - 6/10. Flyer, but...not a good one. Only so bad you can be with that move and flying, though. Again, that's all I'll say since I apparently got RNG screwed on Sumia two runs in a row. Sumia? Killing things ever? Sounds like a bad joke to me.
Kellam - 4/10. Doesn't feel right to give him a higher rating then Stahl, for all that I find him more useful. Kellam is Stahl+ on stats....but Knight movement. Yeah.
Lon'qu - 5/10. Feels pretty average. More useful as an Assassin then a SM imo, but either way not really good enough to do shit on his own, but not bad enough to feel like he lags behind. Average works.
Donnel - 6/10. God King Donnel, Lord of the Stats. Buuuut that rough start is painful. Mostly, I love him for having huge luck + Armsthrift if you send him towards Merc. I gave him a forged Lief's Sword when I made him a merc. He was still using that sword into Hero. Still, in a game where your concern is beating it with a minimum of fuss, he's not that hot I suppose.
Ricken - 1/10. I find Ricken borderline unusable. I tried to use him this time, he was terrible. Bad speed, bad offense, and his defenses are not that good either. He has nothing. I'd give him a 2, except he also makes a terrible parent and what do you know, there are enough guys to pair up with all the ladies without him.
Maribelle - 4/10. Horseyhealer, again with me and Rescue staff shenanigans so I have no trouble using her. Harder to keep her alive then it is Lissa, though. -1 for that, +1 for the move. Same score.
Panne - 7/10. Rough start, but once she gets rolling she's a beast. +1 for being the best user of a Second Seal besides Donnel.
Gaius - 6/10. He keeps getting compared to Lonqu, but I find them fairly different. Gaius has wound up waaaaay dodgier for me, but has even less ability to kill things. Effective evade tanking + thief skills is sweet despite the damage woes.
Cordelia - 7/10. Feels like a better Sumia across the board, but still not durable enough in evade or concrete to risk sending her too far away from the main force.
Gregor - 3/10. Despite how much I like Armsthrift, Gregor feels like he is just barely useful as soon as he joins...and if he gets his first couple levels as bad ones, he becomes bench bait very quickly.
Nowi - 5/10. Tanky, but has to be babied a bit to get her any sort of real offense. Not as good as Panne is with the second seal, so she doesn't get that same credit.
Libra - 6/10. Healbot, the obvious Bolt Axe user if you pick one up, does the job and does it well.
Tharja - 9/10. Nos is brutal, yeah. Has the stats to back it up, and as a nice bonus, the Dark Mage/Sorc skills are pretty good.
Anna - 6/10. She really is Libra+, but lack of support options gets dinged a point.
Olivia - 2/10. She can be really good. I had to baby her SO MUCH to get her to be strong enough to hang with the main force, though. On randoms, because she sure as hell can't manage that on sticking to maingame. Also while doing that, she died a bunch. Turned out great in the end, but Donnel did not take that much effort, AND he had a higher payoff.
Cherche - 7/10. Flying tank with some serious power? Yesplz.
Henry - 5/10. Henry has survivability problems for me, but I can see the potential there.
Say'ri - 5/10. Lonqu+? Yeah, works. Lack of support options makes me irritable, though.
Tiki - 8/10. Out of the box very strong dragon. Does the job, does it well, has a great supports in Sayri and Lucina, who kinda badly want a good support option.
Basilio - 5/10. Out of the box archer, mangles things but lack of supports that late is painful.
Flavia - 4/10. Like Basilio, but less useful IMO.

Lucina - 8/10. Better then her dad late, but Chrom has those early maps to be a badass on. Feels comparible.

Not doing the rest of the second gen, since....well, how they turn out depends so much on who you have them inherit stats/skills from.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2013, 06:37:48 AM by Gatewalker »
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OblivionKnight

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Re: Rank Characters based on In Game Use: Reboot!
« Reply #819 on: September 06, 2013, 12:57:33 PM »
Quote
Since it's rag on Meeple hour apparently (in all seriousness, we do appreciate the work you did in maintaining the thread before), Meeple got on people's cases before for how they voted, threw out rankings that weren't serious enough, wanted everyone to use a strict 10 point scale and not use decimals, etc.  I hinted at this in the post above, but I am going to explicitly state that is not how I do things.  Rankings are subjective personal analyses.  This is a safe space for your nerdy thoughts if you want to share them.  If you think Cyan is a 10/10 character, you're weird, but that's your opinion and more power to you.  So there is absolutely no problem with "I irrationally love Character X and play the game in such a way that X is great, 11/10 character of the year stand back GameFAQs."  If you give silly rankings, awesome, just non-numerical ones might get left out of the spreadsheet. :)

The joke thing was because there were a number of people in a previous iteration of the topic that were doing crap like this, in addition to people like OK trying to be cute but weren't.  Also, I never said "don't use decimals", I said "don't be obnoxious about them."

There are people who rate things drastically and are serious about it; trust me, we've seen this a lot in the previous topic, and I am going to count them.  Yet, when we have a gameplay discussion, and people go "I deduct 2 points because this character has a bad personality!" in a topic all about gameplay...you can see why I took that stance.  I understand you don't care as much, but everyone should at least be something similar to the same page.

"I played the game this way and they were great!" is legitimate subjective way to look at the character...I won't deny that.  Play-style is what allows these things.  Yet, outright saying "I know this character is great, but I hate their personality, so I deduct points from them as a result!" is...yeah.  Not to mention someone in this topic outright deducted points from a character just because people were "overrating them" (this led to someone else actually adding the exact same number of points to the character purposely to offset it <_<); this is no longer gameplay discussion, it's just trolling and sniping at others.  That's why ground rules are sometimes needed.  If you want to do things your way, by all means go ahead.

Also, back then, for the anti-decimal thing (at least beyond the 10ths place) was because of two things that have since changed.  One is unfamiliarity with Spread Sheets (I've since gotten at least a little familiar with them that I could pull it off), as well as Hal did create the "!avg" function which gets the Average nonsense done for me as is.  Back when I use to do this, that wasn't available at first (Hal created it mid-way), so I had to count them manually (if there was an easier way, no one told me it!), and having a "6.125" in the mix can really fudge with counting.


Honestly, I was thinking of continuing this topic as is, just ending Suikoden where it stands (as I said, BAD IDEA on my end), and if people really wanted to recast something, they'd say it.  People can still vote on older games (as Random did with Wild ARMs), even if it ends up not being counted, people like to express their thoughts.

Hey random time to check back in on stuff.

So..."I don't want to name names" and "it was OK" is kind of a dick move if you ask me, but whatever.  I was not really intending to make a lot of comments on this, but...eh, it's been a while, so why not.  While this may come off a tad harsh...I guess that's somewhat intended, but not my main goal.

Quote
He's trying to be cute and be ULTRA SPECIFIC cause I asked to not do "x.75" and such cause that was really annoying me in the other topic (he was the only one doing that; people doing x.5s was rare initially, OK decided to abuse the fuck out of it and then go as far as x.25 and x.75).  Generally, he's not doing a good job of it if you ask me, cause I don't believe for a second he actually thinks they're necessary and is trying to be different, etc.  Gourry a while back did a better job rating things out of 255 just to annoy someone, if you ask me <_<

This was said way, way back on page 6 or so.  Seriously, as I mentioned, this is all about me trying to come out and differentiate between characters that are really similar.  After you made that comment (which I think is ridiculous - you have an issue with my serious rankings, and then said someone trolling the topic was doing better, when that wasn't even my intention!).  I understand it was a joke, but it's like you were insulting me for trying to provide insight into your topic that you constantly wanted more votes in! 

After that, I did a couple rankings out of 128, and used Roman Numerals (out of 10, so still appropriate!), and Tal did binary (also out of 10, so still appropriate!).  We stopped that on page 8 after you made a comment about it.  I admit, that was trolling since you made the comment earlier, which was stopped a long time ago.  In addition to the games being boring (and real life in many instances - I missed a lot of deadlines due to work, but still ended up ranking them afterwards), another thing I know turned people off to this topic (having talked to others about it) was the way you made comments as above.  It frankly seemed like you were only encouraging a specific way to rate and insulting others for being a bit different but still conforming to your ruleset for ranking.  I agree with the elf that a 1-10 scale should be used for normalization purposes, and that this is meant to be an objective scaling, which I think people generally were doing overall (and giving a rating with a comment about personality does not necessarily indicate that's the pure reason they ranked them there, especially with other reasoning).  Again, not really meant to be an attack on you, Meeple, but I know there were several people turned off by those constant comments that often felt belittling at points. 
[11:53] <+Meeple_Gorath> me reading, that's a good one

[19:26] * +Terra_Condor looks up. Star Wars Football, what?
[19:27] <+Terra_Condor> Han Kicks First?
[19:27] <%Grefter-game> Vader intercepts.
[19:27] <%Grefter-game> Touchdown and Alderaan explodes in the victory

SnowFire

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Re: Rank Characters based on In Game Use: Reboot!
« Reply #820 on: September 07, 2013, 11:00:03 PM »
Since the occasional disagreement can be more interesting than all the agreement, some more comments on FEA Kids, especially Nah.... 

I do think that Elf / Ciato rankings on kids are mostly fair enough if you only care about completing the game, with the exception of Owain & Nah.  I do think that rating the kids should presume you are using both parents, *but* that can get weird if you're 100% refusing to grind for the non-combat characters as Elf hinted at already.  Mostly in that if you're using Olivia-as-a-dancer / healer Maribelle/Lissa, they probably aren't paired up and are getting support points way too slowly by spreading out the healing / dancing.  So the kids just don't plain exist.  I suppose if you were doing no-grind AND deeply wanted to use Owain/Brady, you could wait for promotion, then have battle Sage/Valk Lissa & Maribelle pair-up with their future husband for the midgame, and put someone else in charge of healing?  Inigo is just kinda doomed meanwhile in such a scenario, battle-Olivia-as-a-dancer isn't gaining any levels, so you're using her similar to Elf's suggestion on Donny where her sole job is to luck-twink someone in a pair-up, and Inigo iis stuck relying solely on his father for some stats.  And hell, even if you grind Olivia up some, you still only want to recruit Inigo pretty dang late, so yeah, he's really an aftergame focused character (or Lunatic w/ some grinding).  Brady, uh, yeah, he's terrible for all the reasons stated without baking in grinding / potential aftergame nonsense.  Owain, however, I think gets the biggest boost from "assume at least a tiny bit of grinding so that Lissa isn't getting married super-late AND Lissa isn't deeply underlevel."  His stats should not be THAT bad, especially if he's got a fighter father, and if Lissa married Henry or something, well, you know what to do, you now have a not-slow Dark Mage or whatever.

Meanwhile, no arguments that if you just want to complete the game, Cynthia / Yarne / Kjelle deserve some credit for being reasonably easy to get early and having the raw stats to make the catch-up stage not pure pain, but even then, they're only averageish ultimately, you can just keep adults deployed and probably be fine too.  (Except for maybe Lunatic.)

The one ranking I think can't be written off as "varies with what you assume the parent did and grinding" is ranking Nah at ~2ish and also ranking Tiki at ~8ish, though.  Tiki & Nah are basically the same; they should not be so far apart.  Yes, Nah's & Gerome's recruit map are insanely hard for whatever reason (far harder than Noire's or Tiki's, whose Paralogue numbers suggest they should be comparable), so you're getting her lateish.  I did it after C20 (Walhart's last stand) in my most recent playthrough after frustration from attempting it earlier (C17-18ish?) and having Maribelle OHKO'd due to a surprise wall opening and someone being barely in range and OHKOing on the nose.  (Shifting walls, Counter-Warriors, Waste & Ruin, Mire, yeesh.)  However, waiting is not a big deal, it just means her parents stats will be even better, and Nah doesn't have the "hopelessly behind in weapon levels" problem.  I had a slightly overlevel Nowi for the occasion (30/7, husband Gaius at 20/14 Assasssin), a result of Nowi & Gaius soloing half of Yarne's recruitment map.  (Send dragon to go deal with the mounted troops in the forest because screw attempting to fight hordes of high-move enemies fairly, send ENTIRE REST OF ARMY to deal with Armor Knights.  Ocassionally toss Physic in her direction, eventually Rescue so that she can replace her Dragonstone from the convoy due to killing everyone.)  I actually still have the stats available, Tiki was recruited after C19 and had only done C20:

Str/Skl/Spd/Lck/Def/Res , no Dragonstone bonuses
L10 Nah
18/18/19/18/17/11

L25 Tiki
23/20/22/25/20/16

That is *not* that far behind for being 15 levels off.  And Nah can hold her own if used carefully (even more carefully if Nowi wasn't a tad overlevel, sure). By the end of her recruit map, she was L15.  Since she's naturally tanky, it's not like you have to concoct situations where there's just 1 wounded guy in range for fear of the kid getting slaughtered by.  Nah is Tiki, do you want a late-joining dragon who will murder everything y/n.  I can see penalizing her some points for what is still a *somewhat* rockier start than Tiki, and the triple/quadruple dragon grlz army is expensive to field (yikes at Dragonstone / DS+ prices), but she should at *least* be comparable to Cynthia or Yarne, a character that doesn't embarrass themselves in combat.  There's also penalizing for just not having much game left due to the optimal time to do her Paralogue being so late, but eh, Basilio & Flavia get okay ratings, and characters like Athos usually get good ratings, so.

Incidentally, on the note of the dragons....  a *fun* way to play the game is to have "slots" for users, so you've got your cavalier, your sword-user, your axe-user, your tank, your mage, your archer, etc.  And that's how Virion got used twice by me - hey I want to deploy an archer.  Objectively speaking though, I'd have been fine just plain deploying a better unit and skipping out entirely on the archer niche.  I certainly would have given Nowi a 5/10 myself before this playthrough: hey, I'll use her for pair-up bait for a few chapters then bring in the superior Manakete.  However, if you could deploy an army of all Ephraims in Sacred Stones, would you?  Dragons are kinda boring strategically since they do well against almost everything, but aside from cost issues, I suspect "optimal" playthroughs have no problem with just using 'em all.  Sure, Nowi is worse than her dragon competition by the endgame, but she's still good.  And even if Nowi hypothetically did 0 damage, this is the game with pair-up attacks, while she takes 2 damage a shot her boy-toy can murder everyone instead on counters.  (Goddamnit, Japan.)
« Last Edit: September 08, 2013, 01:44:19 AM by SnowFire »

Luther Lansfeld

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Re: Rank Characters based on In Game Use: Reboot!
« Reply #821 on: September 07, 2013, 11:37:30 PM »
(I will respond to this when I have a device with an Excel spreadsheet.)
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Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Rank Characters based on In Game Use: Reboot!
« Reply #822 on: September 08, 2013, 01:18:34 AM »
Yeah, the problem is that for a kid to be good, his/her parents both need to be up-to-speed level-wise. And keeping a healer or dancer well-levelled means using them for healing or dancing, i.e. not gaining supports very fast. I think that's definitely an extra hoop those kids have to jump through. It's true that the later you recruit a kid, the better their stats are, but they're still only gaining stats 2/3 as fast as their parents before you recruit them, so generally speaking they'll be more useful if recruited sooner.

Past that, I don't think Owain looks very good anyway? Even assuming his parents are both up to speed, Lissa just... doesn't pass very good stats. She has bad strength, bad speed, and bad defence, probably the three most important stats for a physical Owain. The skills she's likely to pass are bad too (except Healtouch, but a kid who needs a second seal is not my idea of a practical healer). Owain's own bases are kinda meh, particularly strength. I'm not sure what father would really salvage him as a fighter option compared to Kjelle, Cynthia, Yarne, Sevara, etc., all of whom have mothers with better stats and comparable or better overall base stats themselves. Now, Lissa can pass down decent magic, but that has its own host of problems: the non-Robin male mage parents pass bad speed down (something Owain really doesn't need), and unlike Laurent, Owain will need a second seal to use magic (that or rely on Levin Swords which are in short supply) putting him in need of further levelling before he starts paying off.


On that note, also related to Lissa, in your Libra comments you'll note that Lissa is better long-term. This... isn't really true at all, though you'd sadly think if should be. Here are their stats as Level 20 War Clerics (yeah you can promote Lissa differently, but you can second seal Libra to Sage also, so whatever).

Lissa: 53.5 HP, 19.3 Str, 26 Mag, 22.2 Skl, 25 Spd, 32.7 Lck, 16.6 Def, 22.1 Res
Libra: 56.1 HP, 21.6 Str, 25.5 Mag, 23.5 Skl, 23.5 Spd, 18.6 Lck, 17.7 Def, 23.6 Res

Lissa's got a small speed lead which is certainly nice, but it feels offset by Libra's win in concrete durability (and ability to use the Bolt Axe, I suppose). It's certainly possible Lissa wins this exchange but it's extremely close, and any victory here does not offset a large part of the midgame where Libra is dramatically better.


Regarding the manakete points, I should note that I'm not averse at all to using multiples of a class. In FE9, for instance, you should very obviously use lots of paladins, and scored the game appropriately. For what it's worth, though, I'm a little less taken with general manakete hype? Even once manaketes go into their post-second seal awesome phase, they don't have amazing offence, just amazing defence, and you don't need that many units with the latter. It's possible I'm underrating Nah in particular somewhat, though, my kneejerk was "manakete gained after chapter 20 who is 20 levels away from their exp spike = meh" and honestly the stats you posted did little to convince me otherwise. A late PC who starts underlevelled and even at best is your #3 manakete just isn't very impressive.

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SnowFire

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Re: Rank Characters based on In Game Use: Reboot!
« Reply #823 on: September 08, 2013, 02:15:35 AM »
Re Owain: Yeah, it's a minor nitpick.  I think we all agree on the substantive points, just a matter of weighting them.  Owain potentially can be terrible, sure, I'm just willing to toss him a bone for his theoretical use even in a no-postgame, little-grind run.

Re Libra / Lissa: I freely admit I might be biased that my time using Libra was on Lunatic, where he was doubled and murdered whenever any mean enemy units got near, and wasn't a particularly inspiring Pair-up either.  Meanwhile, Lissa hasn't usually been THAT behind for me to give him much midgame credit - if Lissa is L13-15 by Libra join, whatever.  Anyway, War Cleric is a hilarious class, but I do think part of the Lissa ~ Libra hype is from Lissa going to Sage which is usually better (C14 excepted!).  I find that's far more useful if Lissa needs to kill something; there's a niche of enemies she'll authentically kill, now (Wyvern Riders, Knights), and mages don't have to make the Hand Axe vs. Killer Axe choice War Clerics do.  Sages in a pair-up can do some offense, too.  And yes, you can get to L10 and Second Seal Libra I suppose, but eh.

Re Nah: Well, L10->20 still come reasonably fast.  And it's the stats that matter: if Nah's stats are comparable to Tiki's, and Tiki is good, then either both should be good or both be bad.  It's not "if you catch Nah up to Tiki their stats are comparable," it's "starting Nah and starting Tiki only slightly favors Tiki, they're both comparable, and if you catch Nah up to an equal level she is actually better."  Starting at L10 rather than L20 is pretty much an advantage that Nah has on Tiki, even if the L1-10 spike comes later.  And yeah, maybe Nah will be your #3 Dragon, but that still isn't a bad place to be, at least IMHO.  See Makalov, etc.

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Re: Rank Characters based on In Game Use: Reboot!
« Reply #824 on: September 08, 2013, 04:43:59 AM »
Whee, weighing in on these points.

Re: Owain. The problem is, Owain is not likely to *exist* on a no-postgame, little grind run. Healers don't build supports fast, you kinda need to grind those to get Lissa to S. Can't have her only heal the same guy every round, and she doesn't pair up well(since she doesn't have an attack to double attack with and all), and if you do pair up with her to get the supports....she's not gaining exp, so Owain gains less. Just not seeing it.

Re: Nah. I'm going to be the one to say it here. "Oh man, Nah was really good after I *favored Nowi and Gaius to comical levels*, she's totally as good as Tiki" is what I read that bit up there as. Send Nowi/Gaius pair up to tank half of a fairly dense map on their own? Sorry man, that's not really normal Nowi use. This is why I neglected to rank the kids, because this kinda stuff happens. Use the parents alot? The kids get good. Use them just enough to get the S support and don't grind much? Also don't favor any specific pair so the exp is more spread around? They end up less good.

EDIT: To expand on this a bit, I am *expressly grinding* to get parents to 20/15ish levels if I want to pass on those skills this playthough. And you know what it's requiring? A lot of grinding. For each pair. Some got their levels from maingame use(Chrom/Sully(Who hit 20/1 and 20/5 before Lucina joined due to immese favoritism), Avatar/Cordelia, Donnel/Miriel), but the rest are taking grinding. And alot of it. Being in the process of doing this myself is why I feel I can call that blatant parent favoritism. Hey, I'm doing it too! Doesn't mean I'm going to claim Laurent is a badass because of it, though.

That being said, I'd personally give Nah a 4-6 rating somewhere around there, depending on what skills she inherits. I haven't played Lunatic yet(beyond the first few maps), maybe she's better on that. But for Hard, and aiming for a general lack of grinding? Yeah, she's one of the better kids. Still not as good as Tiki. I also don't penalize people for having hard recruitment maps, though. If I did, take a point off of her, since that one is just crazy.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2013, 04:53:51 AM by Gatewalker »
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