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Author Topic: Rank Characters based on In Game Use: Reboot!  (Read 140013 times)

SnowFire

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Re: Rank Characters based on In Game Use: Reboot!
« Reply #825 on: September 08, 2013, 05:20:22 AM »
Gate: Believe it or not, I am not really grinding at all on this runthrough!*  Well, not relevant for Nah, at least.  I am however not throwing XP at any of the parents outside the characters I'm using this runthrough.  There's still plenty of XP to go around!  This was not exclusive favoritism of Nowi the whole time, it was merely that she had a map where she ate a ton of XP because doing Yarne's recruitment earlyish means you probably should use a tactic like that (it would be her or a Dark mage w/ Nosferatu), and yes, I already said that Nowi ended up a tad overleveled.  Not by as much as you'd think, though.  According to Elf's numbers, Nowi / Taguel Panne should hit 30/17 around C25.  Having Nowi at 30/7 after C20 is not amazingly ahead of the game, and in fact is not surprising since levels 1-10 come super-fast.  It's within normal variance, I'd say.  Hitting somewhere from 20/10-20/15 on your vanilla humans by C20 is not hard at all either and does not require comical overlevelling or favoritism.

I know what you're talking about favoritism & parent grinding, though.  That's certainly what I did in my Lunatic Casual playthrough!  ...which is pretty useless for guessing child worth in Hard Classic no-grind, yes.  Later levels of Lunatic normal game are brutal enough to want some broken kids, though.

* Okay, so I *did* support grind Chrom / Maribelle early because I wanted to see the S conversation rather than get married by default.  I also wanted to use Olivia this run *on Classic*, so to prevent hair pulling out, she got ground via EXPonential Growth to be a L1 Pegasus Knight, but I stopped there - any XP after that she has to earn normally.  (And hell, she's still underleveled for combat even giving her those 9 free levels.)  I also grinded Noire a tad because lol archers.  None of that has anything to do with Nowi / Gaius, though.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2013, 05:54:26 AM by SnowFire »

Cmdr_King

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Re: Rank Characters based on In Game Use: Reboot!
« Reply #826 on: September 12, 2013, 09:59:03 AM »
Fire Emblem: Awakening- playstyle note: characters are generally assumed to just second-seal into their promoted class or their alternate promotion once levels exceeded 40, with exceptions for Olivia and Donnel who have to class change to be combat-viable.  I know, boring, but I tend to play games to DL parameters when viable, it's a quirk.

Chrom- 7/10.  Generically solid.
Robin- 7/10.  Very good, but unfortunately she really needs both offensive stats, plus speed and to a lesser extent skill, to pan out; more than minor screwage in any of them really wrecks her flexibility niche.
Lissa- 5/10.  Thanks to the way staves roll now, she tends to promote early, making up her statistical shortcomings somewhat.  At least enough to staffbot until superior options present themselves.
Frederick- 5/10.  Desperately needs that second seal into Paladin.
Sully- 7/10.  Good all around.  Serves your spear-y needs.
Virion- 2/10.
Stahl- 4/10.  I mean you could.  But why.
Vaike- 3/10.
Miriel- 6/10.  Basically a Magic Swordmaster, which I can dig.
Sumia- 7/10.
Kellam- 4/10.
Lon'qu- 5/10.  Magic Swordmaster better than regular swordmaster.
Donnel- 5/10.  I could almost see like an 8 (I mean, yes he has to eat a second seal, but he'll suddenly be your best unit when he does, just having base stats above 0 will make him statistically above your other characters at level 10-15) except he has to start over on weapon ranks, negating the stat advantage you already spent time and effort to get.
Ricken- 2/10.
Maribelle- 4/10.  Lissa but joins later.
Panne- 5/10.  Really wishes her L15 skill worked in other classes.
Gaius- -/10.  Suicidal.
Cordelia- 7/10.  Not meaningfully different from Sumia, aside from eugenics.
Gregor- 5/10.  Secretly is in fact a run of the miller guy.
Nowi- 3/10.  Her durability is a sham; she eats doubles to everything.  If you can get her to L30, this will rapidly correct itself but that takes a hell of a lot longer than Donny to pay off.
Libra- 4/10.  Staffbot.
Tharja- 8/10.  Nos, with some actual speed and concrete to back it up.  Crazy.
Anna- 6/10.  All purpose utility.  HP is problem.
Olivia- 2/10.  Worst dancer in the series.  She has SM, and can get great milage out of that, except she can't DANCE in any other class.  I get why they didn't want Dance to be transferable to other classes, that would make it an inheritable skill.  As is her options are either viable unit who's less good than others at killin', or a special unit that you can't deploy because she WILL die and inevitably fall behind and die even harder, ad infinitum.
Cherche- -/10.  Didn't get a good read on her.
Henry- 5/10.  Nos helps his speed issues be less damning but... still.
Say'ri- 5/10.  Is basically Lon'qu from what I could tell.
Tiki- 7/10.  Doesn't suffer Nowi's issue of her durability being effectively halved, and joins at a time when you can get dragon stone+ and way closer to L30 when the madness begins.
Basilio- 5/10.
Flavia- 6/10.

Hum.  I'll just note my own kids and parentage, and rate accordingly.

Lucina- 8/10.  Oh hi.
Owain- (Gregor) 3/10.  Lissa/Gregor hamper all his key stats.
Inigo- (Kellam) 3/10.  Not meaningfully different from Gregor (whee likely inheriting nothing from mom) aside from the inherent kid disadvantage.
Brady-  (Virion) 2/10.  No point, will never be better than your other healers.
Kjelle- (Donnel)  5/10.  Any kid of Donnel's will be a walking god so.
Cynthia- (Chrom) 8/10.  Pegga-Pony AETHER DEATH GODDESS.
Severa- (Stahl) -/10
Gerome- (Libra) -/10.
Morgan- (Frederick) 2/10.  Just not up to snuff.
Yarne- (Ricken) 2/10.
Laurent- (Lon'qu) 2/10.  Multiple Magic Swordmasters would get kinda redundant.
Noire- (Vaike) 2/10
Nah (Henry) 4/10.

Gangrel- 2/10
Walhart- 2/10
Emmeryn- 2/10
Yen'fay- 2/10
Aversa- 5/10
Priam- 2/10.  Only Aversa isn't a worse version of some other character.  Aversa is still really damn bad for when you get her, but Shadowgift is awesome so she at least merits some actual thought.
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SnowFire

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Re: Rank Characters based on In Game Use: Reboot!
« Reply #827 on: September 15, 2013, 10:37:48 PM »
Friendly ping / reminder: I'm going to update this in ~3 days or so.

MalcolmMasher

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Re: Rank Characters based on In Game Use: Reboot!
« Reply #828 on: September 17, 2013, 12:11:43 PM »
Chrom - 7.5/10 All-around good. Wishes he could get real 1-2 range before using a Master/Second Seal, though.
Robin - 9/10 Can do anything, including "be the best", only not all at once. Rally Spectrum, while late, is crazy good.
Lissa - 5/10 Heals. Levels quickly because of FE13 staff formulas, but even with a level edge she won't impress in combat.
Frederick - 6.5/10 Questionable long term potential, but excellent to indispensable at the start.
Sully - 8/10 Feels like one of the game's best units. Good stats, good class, and there are plenty of +Str/Def guys for her to choose from.
Virion - 4/10 Early archer, with all the traditional issues. The renown longbow is a nice trick, although he can't use it at base.
Stahl - 5/10 It feels weird to rank one cavalier so far below the other, but... Sully is indispensable, Stahl is not.
Vaike - 5.5/10 Teach is glad that Fighter can promote into Hero. His same-gender supports (Chrom and Lon'qu) merit recognition.
Miriel - 7/10 Good Magic and Speed, with DM/Sorc and Troub/Valk as class options if you've a Seal to spare. Durability is problematic, granted.
Sumia - 7/10 Tons of speed, and flies. Wishes she had more support choices, but being The Speedster is a good trick in a game when enemy speed is frequently a thing. Going DF for eventual Galeforce is not necessarily optimal but certainly worth considering.
Kellam - 4.5/10 The tanking is good early, but lategame Kellam is mostly just a backup guy. A solid one, mind you, but he's hardly alone in that.
Lon'qu - 5/10 Fast. It's a good place to start, but 1-2 range would be nice, too.
Donnel - 5.5/10 Villager is atrocious, but training Donnel is manageable, and I genuinely feel that he (and his kid) pay off in late/postgame. Also, a half point for Armsthrift hilarity, although objectively it's not worth delaying Hand Axe-cess.
Ricken - 2/10 Good things I have to say about Ricken: "better start than Donnel". End list.
Maribelle - 4/10 Better class than Lissa, better skills than Lissa, but she's still worse at their shared role. Which is a commendable achievement by game design, I suppose.
Panne - 7.5/10 What if Donnel's start didn't suck? Wyvern Panne does start sinking in the late game, since she can't ditch her bow/wind weaknesses without losing her 1-2 range, and like him she needs a Second Seal to get there at all. But the payoff remains impressive.
Gaius - 4/10 Between Lon'qu and Anna, I struggle to see the point of Gaius, but he's not _bad_.
Cordelia - 6.5/10 Better Str/Def and more support options than Sumia; on paper Cordy's better, but practice seems to lean slightly to the klutz.
Gregor - 4/10 "Hey, it's a Gen 1 guy that offers good Pair Up boosts!" "Throw him onto the pile with the others."
Nowi - 5/10 Give her a solid Spd/Def pair up (hi Gregor) and a ton of EXP early, and she does pay off. BUt if you _don't_ do that, you're not getting much out of her. So, 5/10 seems fair; Panne and Avatar cope with NOT being favored much better than Nowi does.
Libra - 5/10 Heals. Can fight okay, early on. Expect little else.
Tharja - 6.5/10 Skill and Luck are great dump stats to have, although she _does_ feel 'em. Dark Magic is great.
Anna - 6/10 Heals, picks locks, competent offense while the Levin Swords hold out. She's frail, but by FE13 healer standards...
Olivia - 5/10 Balanced performers are not as enjoyable as I had hoped. Still, when your plan calls for a dance, there's no substitute to accept.
Cherche - 5/10 Solid, if unexciting.
Henry - 4/10 More exciting, but less solid. Still, if you can work around the Speed...
Say'ri - 4.5/10 Good base stats, Anna's support list. Adequate filler, but I don't find myself needing filler too often in FE13 (or, at least, needing filler that can't unlock a Paralogue.)
Tiki - 5/10 See Say'ri, except that Tiki can hope to get to L30, seal to L1 and go for a snowball effect. Also, 1-2 range counters with no strings attached, always a plus.
Basilio - 3.5/10
Flavia - 3.5/10 Flavia is better against most enemies, but not great, and Basilio is better at Rally and backup. Eh, they can tie.

Trying for an aggregate-parent kid analysis. Usually I ignore "difficulty to recruit", but here I feel I need to give it at least some weight, since it winds up affecting how much trouble certain kids are to catch up.

Lucina - 7/10 Yeah, I think slightly below Chrom is fair.
Owain - 3/10 One of the easier Paralogues, but his mother is a mage and his father probably won't be, which hurts his combat potential.
Inigo - 2/10 Being Olivia's son is problematic, from a "exists in a reasonable timeframe while inheriting good stats" perspective. Recruitment chapter can get painful, too.
Brady - 2/10 Having Maribelle as a mother kind of ruins the point of being a kid, and I don't know why Brady of all people was randomly docked a weapon rank. He can spam Rescue for easy EXP, but why bother?
Kjelle - 6.5/10 One of the best kids.
Cynthia - 4/10 If you expect trouble training her for combat, have Mom pass down Rally Speed.
Severa - 5/10 Merc -> Hero is generally a great place to be, and she's better for rallies than Cynthia since she's more likely to inherit one from Dad.
Gerome - 3/10 Typically a late-joining project with dubious performance in his joining chapter. That's... hardly ideal.
Morgan - 7/10 Inherit Veteran (or immediately swap to Tactician) and enjoy.
Yarne - 5.5/10 Panne, except the start is worse and the finish is better (Yarne can tank bows!)
Laurent - 3/10 A slower, bulkier Miriel? That didn't work out for Ricken, either. I suppose there's always Dark Mage.
Noire - 4.5/10 Bows are a great way to have EXP fed to you, and 2-3 range bows are an adequate justification for doing so. Or you could reclass Noire into Dark Mage and be one weapon rank from Nosferatu, your call.
Nah - 2.5/10. Like her mother, but significantly more of an investment.

Gangrel - 2.5/10 Fast and, for a FE13 healer, bulky. But neither his healing nor his fighting are impressive.
Walhart - 4/10 Solid combatant. Pity about the supports, or lack thereof.
Emmeryn - 3/10 If you feel your healing is insufficient, there is a solution.
Yen'fay - 2.5/10 I do not find myself needing Swordmasters (or no-WEXP Wyverns/Snipers) in the late game.
Aversa - 4.5/10 - Galeforce is excellent. Shadowgift is neat, too.
Priam - 4/10 Stats are good, skills are good... hopefully, you still have something to fight.

Meeplelard

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Re: Rank Characters based on In Game Use: Reboot!
« Reply #829 on: September 17, 2013, 10:55:34 PM »
Chrom: 7/10.  Yeah, Ike9 works.
Avatar: 8.5/10.  Think some people are overrating Robin a tad, but nonetheless, very good character.
Lissa: 4/10.  Early game healer, isn't worth much beyond that.
Frederick: 5/10.  In theory, decent Jeigan who clearly has a time pass, but I've never felt needed to use him outside of getting Donnel, so dunno how much credit I can give him.
Sully: 7/10.  Solid Cavalier character.
Virion: 4/10. Not that solid Archer who can be alright, but probably won't be.
Stahl: 7/10.  On paper, Sully variant, in practice...dunno, haven't used much, but I'll just assume same score works.
Vaike: 5/10.  Early Axe user, not much beyond that.
Miriel: 6/10.  Decent early game mage, but as game goes on, better options exist, though she's never actually bad.
Sumia: 7.5/10. Good Peg Knight character.
Kellam: 7/10. if Pair Up didn't exist, he'd be lower but Pair Up does exist, so you can compensate for his flaws.  A tank who can seriously eat two crits in a row, and just not give a shit.
Lon'qu: 5/10.  Alright Myrm, but always feels like he's a bit lacking in Strength pre-Swordflaire, which is late.
Donnel: 6/10.  On one hand, he's one of the most painful things to raise ever.  On the otherhand,  when he gets enough levels, he becomes downright psychotic after a point, and that point is early enough that he can be useful.  Docking him a point for having to use nothing but E Rank weapons after "promoting" though.
Ricken: 3/10. I used him in my first game...I regret that decision and benched him eventually.
Maribelle: 5/10.  Lissa with higher mobility, and Demoisselle...this works.
Panne: Abstain.  I never used her with Second Seal, so to me she's unimpressive, but allegedly she gets much better with Second Seal so...
Gaius: 4/10.  I want to give more points to the Thief thing, unfortunately, someone later can fill that niche and more out of the gate.
Cordelia: 7/10. Sumia variant, feels a touch worse, so half a point lower.
Gregor: 5/10.  Always felt a tad too slow to be anything higher than average.  Makes good Pair Up bait I guess.
Nowi: 4/10.  Sorry but I don't see her as very useful.  I tried using her seriously on two files and she was unimpressive on both.  Tanky, sure, but never quite to the point where she doesn't die, and the lack of Offense is a legitimate problem since it means she has that much problems leveling up to keep her defense in check. 
Libra: 5.5/10. Prepromo with healing an adequate offense out of the gate, sure.
Tharja: 8/10.  Nosferatu Hax goes so damn far in this game, I can't stress how much I've fallen back on that strategy in my first game.
Anna: 6/10.  Why Libra wasn't higher; Anna can do the healing thing too, but also Thief uses and makes a prime Levin Sword user as a pseudo-Mage.
Olivia: 3/10.  Dancers are cool, Olivia has enough issues to make you not want to use one though.  Cost of most of my resets when I used her.
Cherche: 5/10.  I want her to be higher but both times she's felt kind of...eh.  Not bad, but nothing special either.
Henry: 6/10.  Tharja...with much worse starting speed who joins later.  That's enough for 2 points lower, sadly.
Say'ri: 6/10.  Solid Prepromo.
Tiki: 9/10.  My first file, I thought she was merely solid.  Second file, I second seal'd her and realized this isn't fair to the game and probably will not do that again simply out of pity for it!
Basilio: 5/10.  Good for filling up late game slots, not much else.
Flavia: 6/10.  See Basillio, but better at it I feel.

Lucina: 7/10.  The catch up time is a flaw, but infinite concoctions, 12 Might Weapon and immediate Aether + Rightful King make catching up easier than it could have been, and she's basically Chrom+ when she does catch up so...yeah, same score works.
Owain: 4/10.  Unimpressive, I found, sadly.
Inigo: 6/10.  Significantly more impressive, meanwhile.
Brady: 3/10.  Late game Healer who...ummm...er...yeah, no.
Kjelle: 7/10.  Found her quite effective once you get her out of Knight.
Cynthia: 6/10. A bit lacking in raw strength I found to really be effective.
Severa: 6/10.  Variation of INigo, I found.
Gerome: 5/10.  Similar to his mother, really.
Morgan: 8/10.  Yeah, Robin who needs to play catch up, I'll go with this.
Yarne: Abstain.  See Panne basically.
Laurent: 6/10.  Miriel with more late game worth once caught up.
Noire: 6/10.  Passable enough.
Nah: 3/10.  Nowi's problems all blown up further who joins later.

I find most of the kids are good at overcoming their catch up time, so I don't hold too many points off that, though, how hard the map is I possibly should hold against them.

Not going to rate the aftergame PCs because there's so little left there.

I'll rate the DLC PCs I did get though!  As a reminder, all of them have access to the same jobs Robin/Morgan have, and Marth has a unique job on top of that.

Marth: 7/10.  Basically another Chrom/Lucina, when all is said and done, albeit misses Aether and Rightful King but we'll say the class spectrum offsets that.
Roy: 3/10.  Gregor has comparable/better stats than him at a similar level, and joins earlier.  Roy's special trait of having Aegis early doesn't mean much when Aegis relies on stats to kick in, and Dualstrike+ doesn't really save him.  Oh yeah, he also misses the Mercenary skills.
Micaiah: 9/10.  Tharja+, loses Dark Mage skills in favor of Shadowgift...WINNING TRADE.  Makes a good Dark Knight for that alone, let alone a Dark Flier if you get her high enough.
Leif: 8/10.  Anna with a huge lead in stats.  Low on Staff levels but you can raise those faster than expected.
Alm: 5/10.  Free Dread Knight = Good!  The speed however kills his use notably, to the point where he needs a good Speed Pair Up to just not be doubled.  Hard to ignore Attack+10 of course, and if you put him in a fast class after he gets 10 levels, he gets way better.
Seliph: 7.5/10.  Dunno why but he felt less effective than Leif.  THAT SAID, he's still a male Galeforce user who gets Astra in a few levels and has stats good enough to justify it, so he's pretty darn good.
Elincia: 5.5/10.  Mobile Staff Bot, that's pretty much all she's good for.  Good at it mind you, but not much otherwise.
Eirika: 6.5/10. Good Bow User, of all things, makes a passable staff wielder too.  Just wish she had higher ranks in Lances so I could be more flexible with her second class, but send her into a path with Bows and she should be good.
Lyn: 4/10.  Sadly, uninspired Swordmaster who doesn't really have much going for her.  Zeal on a Female is a perk, but it's really kind of an "eh, who cares" one.

Ephraim, Celica and Ike are pretty much aftergame only given the maps you deal with, so yeah, don't count.
[21:39] <+Mega_Mettaur> so Snow...
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SnowFire

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Re: Rank Characters based on In Game Use: Reboot!
« Reply #830 on: September 19, 2013, 05:08:19 AM »
Results.  (In slightly nicer form, see the full spreadsheet, which also has everyone's votes as I recorded 'em.  It's here:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AnWZpz-xP-nLdHRnQVAwRHNhdnFtZFhrSm50UnVUdXc&usp=sharing )

Chrom     7.2
Avatar    8.9
Lissa     3.9
Frederick 6.8
Sully     6.8
Virion    3.3
Stahl     4.9
Vaike     4.0
Miriel    5.9
Sumia     7.2
Kellam    4.3
Lon'qu    5.2
Donnel    4.0
Ricken    2.2
Maribelle 3.6
Panne     6.8
Gaius     5.0
Cordelia  7.3
Gregor    4.4
Nowi      5.3
Libra     5.8
Tharja    8.4
Anna      6.8
Olivia    2.7
Cherche   5.9
Henry     5.1
Say'ri    5.7
Tiki      7.9
Basilio   4.8
Flavia    4.9
Lucina    7.7
Owain     3.0
Inigo     3.0
Brady     1.8
Kjelle    5.9
Cynthia   6.3
Severa    5.2
Gerome    4.1
Morgan    6.7
Yarne     4.8
Laurent   4.0
Noire     3.3
Nah       4.0


As everyone already noted, kid scores are a bit wonky due to fewer votes + vote weighting + variability, but so it goes.  Some statistics, silly and otherwise:
Adults + Lucina:
Average 5.6,  Median 5.3, Std. Dev   1.7
   
Everyone:
Average 5.2, Median 5.1, Std. Dev 1.7

Top ranked characters: Avatar (8.9), Tharja (8.4), Tiki (7.9), Lucina (7.7), Cordelia (7.3), Sumia (7.2), Chrom (7.2)
Bottom of the barrel: Brady (1.8), Ricken (2.2), Olivia (2.7), Owain (3.0), Inigo (3.0), Virion (3.3), Noire (3.3)
Averagest Joes: Henry (5.1) by the everyone median; Nowi (5.3) (the lil' attention-grabber) by the adults & Lucina median.  Lon'qu and Severa speedily hover between the medians at 5.2, bookended by the two slow tanks... whatever that means.
Most contentious: Morgan (std. deviation 2.3); also Nowi and Nah (Standard Deviation of 2).  Are underage dragon girls liabilities who get doubled and die, or unstoppable shock troops if somewhat unethical?  No one agrees.
Most concurred: Lucina, Chrom, and Lon'qu (std. deviation: 0.4).  Yet another parent-child pair, and also a sword dude.  Everyone agrees: blue hair is pretty good.  (Basilio, meanwhile, was *almost* a unanimous 5, but Malcom disagrees.  HELL NOOOOOooo etc.)

(Stats nerdery: why top 7 / bottom 7?  Because that's around "1 standard deviation above average" and "1 standard deviation below average.")

SnowFire

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Re: Rank Characters based on In Game Use: Reboot!
« Reply #831 on: September 19, 2013, 05:14:39 AM »
Anyway, most of the heavily played DL games were re-ranked already, so...  new blood time?  Picking the recent ranked games in the CKDL, except for Gen 5, as Pokemon ranking is weird.  (Probably an abridged set of Pokes if we ever want to do that one.)  It's odd, as I thought we've ranked CSTW before, but checking the archives, I can't find it (well, other than the character-based ranking), so here we go, along with the zany adventures of Buffacow the 9th.

Mana Khemia 2

Raze
Lily
Et
Yun
Puniyo

Ulrika
Chloe
Pepperoni
Enna
Goto


Cthulhu Saves the World

Cthulhu
Umi
Sharpe
October
Paws
Dacre
Ember
Dem

October
Elona
Dark Umi
Molly
Sara

Dhyerwolf

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Re: Rank Characters based on In Game Use: Reboot!
« Reply #832 on: September 19, 2013, 05:45:05 AM »
Mana Khemia 2
Of a small note, unlike MK 1, I don't really remember any notable switch skills, unlike in MK 1

Raze- 7. Durable, awesome Timed Cards, Analyze, Big Damage Shot to switch out on
Lily- 7. The awesome damage dealer of Raze's path.  She has basically all the damage types you want (cheap ST that's decently strong, timed cards, GT, MT) and it's very easy to give her skills that complement this. Might be a bit higher, but falls at endgame a bit (although still decent)
Et - 6. Et doesn't really appeal to my play style (racking up a lot of damage over a large number of turns with some variation). Obviously solid, but
Yun- 3. There, middling damage, horrible SP, could take hits worse.
Puniyo- 7. MT Revival+Healing, awesome at the final dungeon (not really a large factor, but tips between 6 or 7)

Ulrika- 7. Healing was solid, damage was okay but kind of whatever.
Chloe- 5. Great ST damage. Doesn't bring up else to the table, but as always, solid MAG at least lets you pick up whatever.
Pepperoni- 6. Tad better than Chloe overall, I think. He lacked SP, but was better on natural GT and taking a hit.
Enna- 8. Only Timed Card damage user on Ulrika's path was already a great niche. Interceptor is just another layer of greatness. Oh yeah, his Defend switch in was one of the few that stood out (cancel enemy action)
Goto- 1. Oh god, horrible. Doesn't even have the Mag to make anything worthwhile. The 1 point is for being the 5th in a 5 person game and I'm questioning whether that should even be worth a point.

My final team was Raze, Lily, Puniyo, Ulrika, Chloe, Enna
...into the nightfall.

VySaika

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Re: Rank Characters based on In Game Use: Reboot!
« Reply #833 on: September 19, 2013, 05:47:50 AM »
Mana Khemia 2

NOTE: I have only played Raze's path, and have not finished it yet. Closing in on the end, but I remember what a massive spike Vayne gets at the end of MK1, so would not be surprised to find Raze(or maybe even someone else!) getting one here. Still, I've played enough that I feel okay on rating in-game use for the majority of the game.

Raze - 7/10. Analyze is always good, plus the best boss slugger of the cast mid to late game. Considering how beefy MK2 bosses can get, this is a very important role.
Lily - 8/10. Random smasher extraordinaire. I find myself forgetting just how much damage she does MT. She's not all that impressive in the boss fights, but oh man does she mangle randoms something fierce. Oh, wait, she has solid timed cards plus a move that inflicts Slow. Nevermind what I said about the boss fights.
Et - 4/10. She's strong enough early that it feels wrong to rate her this much lower then Raze...but really earlygame MK2 is not that big of a deal. She's great for filling up that unite meter, I guess. Otherwise she feels like she has a pretty sharp fall off in the latter mid-game.
Yun - 4/10. Better then Et late...but mostly just there. His skillset largely feels like wasted potential, Blazing Suit never feels worth it, and his AoE move and line target attack are great but just cost too much. Again, compares poorly to Lily on randoms and Raze on bosses.
Puniyo - 5/10. Her MT healing is nice....and easily replaced by items. Best CS user by miles....but CSes are just not as good as innate moves I find. Still, only real source of competent elec damage with those CSes, and that's a common enough weakness that she gets credit for it.

Lily and Raze feel like the only two who are straight up indispensable. If I could only have 3, I'd take those two and Puniyo without a moment's hesitation. Not really inspiring for Et and Yun.
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SnowFire

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Re: Rank Characters based on In Game Use: Reboot!
« Reply #834 on: September 19, 2013, 05:54:45 AM »
Administrative note

Meeple chatted me up tonight.  He really wants to continue the topic himself and requested that he take over.  So Meeple'll be handling this going forward.

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Rank Characters based on In Game Use: Reboot!
« Reply #835 on: September 19, 2013, 06:06:19 AM »
Mana Khemia 2

I only played Raze's path, so obviously that colours some ratings.

Raze: 5/10. Tends to rack up decent damage with timed cards, but not incredible, and kind of eh in randoms IIRC.
Lily: 7/10. Magic generally felt much better than physicals. There's nothing about Lily that really dominates but she has good stats where it counts and she smashes randoms well.
Et: 5.5/10. Generally felt able to output more damage than Raze at most points. But fairly similar past that.
Yun: 2.5/10. Mediocre. Yeah see the other two fighters only much worse.
Puniyo: 6.5/10. Not as good as Lily (durability mostly?) for much of the game, then skyrockets to obvious MVP towards the end.

Cthulhu Saves the World

Pretty well-balanced cast I think, I may have to think this one over though.

Cthulhu: 6/10. He's pretty solid, your red mage type. Generally does good damage, and all his stats are solid. He can do a bit of everything.
Umi: 7/10. Glass cannons work well in Cthulhu's system, and Siren's Call is so damn good. Wasn't always as good as the other main PCs at their respective offensive niches (though close at the fighter side, at worst), but could do any style of offence, had good unites, status, etc.
Sharpe: 5.5/10. Brings the pain in boss fights. Decent in randoms if and only if you're going for ST moves.
October: 5.5/10. Mm. Slow and frail, but that MT pain.
Paws: 4.5/10. He struggles to keep a niche, although "fast and does random oddball stuff" could be much worse.
Dacre: 4/10. Great healbot in bosses, garbage in randoms until late and even then he's still worse than October. Unfortunately he joins around the point of the game where bosses are in decline and I care a lot more about randoms.
Ember: 3.5/10. Good for a game-worst PC, certainly. He can tank like a champ and Volcanic Aura had some uses in randoms. But... poor offence in a ball lightning game.
Dem: DNR.

October: 7.5/10. Her MT damage felt completely ridiculous in this mode, she makes the earlygame a joke and stays really good forever. Slow and not super durable, whatever, everything dies.
Elona: 5/10. Umi minus all the cannoning. Or Dacre plus actual offensive options. It works well enough.
Dark Umi: 6/10. Queen of ST smash. Dies to everything (seriously, makes October look like a tank). But at least she's fast!
Molly: 4/10. The Paws of Angels mode kinda.
Sara: DNR.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2013, 06:08:23 AM by Dark Holy Elf »

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Meeplelard

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Re: Rank Characters based on In Game Use: Reboot!
« Reply #836 on: September 19, 2013, 06:11:02 AM »
Ok, just wanna comment on a few things, because the next bits might be messy, so a bit of warning.

Going to count up the session before the dry spell, probably tomorrow, so expect to see that.  Silly to leave that hanging. 

We can continue MK2 and Cthulu simply because it's been started, be silly to stop now!

Probably won't be continuing Suikoden unless there's demand for it.

I will be using Snowfire's numbers, though modified a bit just to be consistent with my format; props for doing all that hard work for the game in any event.

And yes, I will be easing up on a number of...protocols?  Things are different this time around, for a number of reasons.


Hopefully that clears this up...and I probably could have done some of these points not in single lines and made the post look less silly.
[21:39] <+Mega_Mettaur> so Snow...
[21:39] <+Mega_Mettaur> Sonic Chaos
[21:39] <+Hello-NewAgeHipsterDojimaDee> That's -brilliant-.

[17:02] <+Tengu_Man> Raven is a better comic relief PC than A

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Rank Characters based on In Game Use: Reboot!
« Reply #837 on: September 19, 2013, 06:11:39 AM »
Also regarding the administrative thing, well, you two can sort out what this topic will look like going forward and that's your business, not mine. But I will say that I really like the extra information we got this time and I hope it continues in some form. (i.e. Meeple, please either use a spreadsheet yourself or outsource it to someone, pretty sure it'll save time compared to using Hatbot-averages long-term and will also make it much easier to keep track of the top 20 overall, etc. edit: Plus, as mentioned, it allows you to add scores later e.g. when Random rates things a couple years later :) )
« Last Edit: September 19, 2013, 06:17:03 AM by Dark Holy Elf »

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Meeplelard

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Re: Rank Characters based on In Game Use: Reboot!
« Reply #838 on: September 19, 2013, 06:31:49 AM »
Yeah, I can add in that extra stuff if you want.  I'll probably stop the top/bottom 20s (or whatever they evolve into) each post, and just add them into the initial post so I can constantly change them as they update from here on in.

I can start adding in older noms too, though I don't when (if ever) I'll get to adjusting things done dramatically after.
[21:39] <+Mega_Mettaur> so Snow...
[21:39] <+Mega_Mettaur> Sonic Chaos
[21:39] <+Hello-NewAgeHipsterDojimaDee> That's -brilliant-.

[17:02] <+Tengu_Man> Raven is a better comic relief PC than A

Random Consonant

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Re: Rank Characters based on In Game Use: Reboot!
« Reply #839 on: September 19, 2013, 07:06:42 AM »
Mana Khemia 2

Raze: Decently durable, but sort of eh on the randombusting end.  Analyze is good though.  6/10
Lily: Smashy for randoms, speed doesn't offend.  7/10.
Et: Lesser version of Raze more or less.  5.5/10
Yun: Warm body.  3/10
Puniyo: Good for CSes, but I kind of wish the innate skillset was a bit better.  Oh well, Taro's Sternness is still an absurd endgame spike.  6/10

Ulrika: Not quite as impressed by the times sphere healing but it's still nice and the stats don't offend.  6/10
Chloe: Good magic stat, world of book, but good lord do you need CSes for crowd control like what.  6/10
Pepperoni: At least he's durable.  5/10
Enna: Interceptor and cancel on a defend switch is a pretty good niche to have yeah, though I don't remember him impressing on raw offense.  6.5/10
Goto: Isn't even good at being a warm body.  1/10.


Cthulhu Saves the World

Cthulhu: He both deals damage and takes hits acceptably, although he's never amazing.  A few quirks end him up with an above average score.  5.5/10
Umi: Siren's Call and the cannoning are both pretty great.  7/10
Sharpe: Decent boss fighter.  5.5/10
October: Decent random buster.  5.5/10
Paws: Get a niche.  4/10
Dacre: Get some offense.  2/10
Ember: Get some offense.  2/10
Dem: DNR, basically aftergame.

October: Randomly a lot better than she is in vanilla.  I blame earlygame.  7/10
Elona: Well she's around for a lot longer than Dacre is and she actually has offense.  5/10
Dark Umi: Smash oh and please don't die to a stiff breeze.  6/10
Molly: Decent.  5/10
Sara: DNR
« Last Edit: September 20, 2013, 12:36:08 AM by Random Consonant »

Jo'ou Ranbu

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Re: Rank Characters based on In Game Use: Reboot!
« Reply #840 on: September 19, 2013, 02:50:20 PM »
Mana Khemia 2

Mana Khemia 2 character balance is actually pretty decent: no character is overcentralizing and, outside two obvious duds, each PC covers useful niches and pulls his/her weight. There's also a cool variance in party dynamics between paths: the two parties play very differently and you have to work with the resources they hand you individually: Raze's path provides you with superior overall offense and a lot of timed card options, crowd control and doom bailout, but it sucks at dealing with timed cards and the overall durability spread is also problematic. Ulrika's path, on the other gives you more varied and potent defensive options, better durability spread, stronger short-term offense and Enna to handle pesky timed cards, but no get out of jail for free card MT status healing+revival, little to no timed cards and far worse crowd control. The comparison ends up very interesting that way. Anyhow!

Razeluxe Meitzen: 5/10. The durability sponge in his own path, pretty much. Analyze and that are pretty much his niches, which I guess is fine, but nothing else is terribly interesting about him. On the other hand, he's never underwhelming, so perfect average works.
Lilianne Valendorf: 7.5/10. Clear MVP for 75% of the game. Versatile, cost-efficient offense in your innate skillset is all you can ask from a mage in MK2, and she's the best at it until the very endgame, covering it all: single-target, timed cards, crowd control via both GT and MT. Even when her offensive lead wanes at endgame, Glaceration is a fun niche (elemental resistances get laughed at) and she always has the stats at the right places where they matter.
Etward Dysler: 6/10. There are actually many small things about Et to like: her offense output is game-best long-term in Raze's path, piling up damage in many ways like a motherfucker, she's the first character to have timed card offense and the only one with powerful crowd control physicals (in the form of timed cards as well) for a long time. Her short-term output is problematic for a prolonged period, though (and always very cost-inefficient, though it stops mattering at some point), and her resources are somewhat high-demand. Durability is kinda sketchy too and she also has little means to boost her offense through equipment (no high-end crit+ weapons, no elemental offense to raise her damage through skills, etc.).
Yun: 3/10. Warm body. He comes into his own offensively at the endgame with Speedy Flame Bomb, which is good crowd control, and Flame Pillar, which is oddly powerful, but it's too little, too late.
Puniyo: 7/10. Healing that doubles as revival and status healing is always cool and the offensive ineptude on the base skillset is mitigated by common skills (remember, magic in MK2 is markedly badass). Lategame, she just becomes a monstrosity with Taro's Sternness. However, she always has statistical problems.

Ulrika Mulberry: 7/10. I find Ulrika to quietly be the borderline MVP of her own path. She has this neat niche as the mage with the best stats across the board and, while the healing is just decent, she's also the best at using Common Skills on her own path due to Mana Blessing, which suddenly fixes her earlygame offensive problems. Her status game is also oddly useful. Just generally has a very solid package, which is a pretty notable departure from Raze's middlingness.
Chloe Hertzog: 6/10. The short-term offense is pretty much unparalled (to the point of her scoring OHKOs nobody else can - even Pepperoni) and World of Booc is the better Analyze, along with having a neat support attack/defense skillset, but dear lord girl you have literally -no- crowd control without Common Skills. The stats also suck.
Pepperoncino: 5/10. Very durable and very damaging - even having -some- offensive variety in terms of crowd control - but he's very slow (due to having a lot of charge times on most of his skills) and magic is the superior option in Mana Khemia 2.
Ennarcia Dysler:  7/10. Shares the silent MVP moniker with Ulrika for very different reasons. Ennarcia's the only PC in Ulrika path to sport timed card offense, which they honestly -dearly- need, and it's also very cost-efficient and provides a bit of crowd control later too (or, alternatively, providing constant delay for much less cost-efficiency). But his real money lies in Interceptor: timed card offense is -nasty- against you and he's your only on-the-spot option to neuter them. Being all physical is a bit of a problem, but he also has a few very useful support attack/defend options as well.
Goto: 2/10. Awful. His only niches are stealing (lol) and getting instant turns eventually on support attack/defend. Otherwise, he has shoddy offense (middling offensive stats and crap mults) and cumbersome at best skills. Only thing keeping him from a 1 is the fact that having a warm body in MK system is significantly better than having a warm body in most other games, since more PCs improve your vanguard/support dynamics.

Rest later.

Cthulhu Saves the World

Cthulhu - 6.5/10. I don't really enjoy how poor his crowd control is, but his ST smash is very good and he has stats everywhere. Besides good damage, he's got tankiness and ways to exploit it against randoms, which I abused pretty hard as well.
Umi - 8/10. Wow, that durability blows. Wow, her skillset rules. Umi's ungodly versatile, sporting pretty much everything you want: healing, speed, damage, status, buffing, stat-busting, BAILOUT MT FULL HEALING OF DOOM AND DESTRUCTION... Siren's Call is also amazing. The durability keeps her from being even better, but CSTW does reward glass cannons with its system.
Sharpe - 6/10. Similar to Cthulhu, really. Better damage for a long time, but somewhat worse stats and the damage options are less interesting too.
October - 7/10. Wow, in spite of the paper durability and terrible speed, she's damn near the queen of randoms. Also capable against bosses, although not so much. The perfect ID is also a nice cherry on top, manhandling the tough individual HP blobs that show up in the lategame.
Paws - 4/10. Pretty haphazard. "Fast, does random stuff" is okay enough, though, and the MT sanity swapper is fairly cute.
Dacre - 4/10. Dacre sucks on randoms, but is quite good against bosses - frees up space for Umi offense to take the forefront and his own buffing is overall advantageous for party offense output. Problem is bosses take a nosedive more or less by the time Dacre joins, so that's not such a great niche.
Ember - 3/10. Fairly obvious game-worst PC. Being tanky is never bad in this game, at least, and he's not hopeless on randoms. He really needed more offense, though.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2013, 04:01:24 PM by Jo'ou Ranbu »
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> HEY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> LAGGY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> UVIET?!??!?!
[01:08] <Laggy> YA!!!!!!!!!1111111111
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> OMG!!!!
[01:08] <Chulianne> No wonder you're small.
[01:08] <TranceHime> cocks
[01:08] <Laggy> .....

Luther Lansfeld

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Re: Rank Characters based on In Game Use: Reboot!
« Reply #841 on: September 19, 2013, 05:33:28 PM »
Generally got the impression of Lily and Puniyo > Raze and Et > Yun from casually watching the game. :p

Cthulhu Saves the World

Cthulhu - 6/10. Good damage, not so good at MT the way I built him. (Not sure if he could be.)
Umi - 7.5/10. Fantastic damage, fast, and good healing.
Sharpe - 5/10. He's decent but not great.
October - 6/10. Good random smasher, bad against bosses.
Paws - 4.5/10. Decent at filling a hole but probably needed a tad more oomph overall. I still used him though!
Dacre - 3/10. Would be better in a game that isn't this one. The game is inherently ball lightning because of how the
Ember - 2.5/10. Is better than many of his archetype, which is sad.
Dem DNR

October - 7/10. Better in this mode due to strong earlygame. Seems to be even relatively worse against bosses.
Elona - 5/10 Suffices as party healer.
Dark Umi - 7/10 Trades healing and durability for EVEN MOAR DAMAGE! and is still fast as fuck
Molly - 4/10. A slighly weaker version of Paws who is better against bosses.
Sara DNR
« Last Edit: September 19, 2013, 05:36:19 PM by Luther Lansfeld »
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SnowFire

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Re: Rank Characters based on In Game Use: Reboot!
« Reply #842 on: September 20, 2013, 04:10:04 AM »
Rando comments: I'm obviously with Elf in strongly preferring some sort of spreadsheet continue to be used, preferably a web one (e.g. Google Docs, Dropbox, etc.).  Have it be nice & public & all - just copy mine and create your own (I was planning a separate interior sheet per game).  The extra stats are just fun and not that important; the ease in maintenance is.

Awakening retro comments (done before the rankings above): I edited my score of Brady down to 2 from my initial 3 after using him.  Oh god even with EXPonential Growth grinding he's bad.  Having Chrom as a father and he's still incompetent at combat, and despite being promoted and like 20/10, his Magic is puny as well, leading into the ol' "Oh I'll just charge forward into the horde and Rescue Staff back out.  Okay, attacked.  Oh.  Brady's HORRIBLE STAFF RANGE means he can't actually grab her back without moving into attack range himself, which is suicide.  Um.  Crap."  (Luckily, I'd deployed both Lissa & Maribelle as well, and had to Rescue chain them to have one of them get in range.  STILL).  Also knocked Owain down a point, yeah, those joining stats are worse than I thought, although I still think he's somewhat more salvageable.  Also I am now 0/3 in recruiting Gangrel.  I see.


Cthulhu Saves the World

Mostly with everyone else here.  I built my team for base CSTW more around strong ST damage for reference.

Cthulhu 6/10.  Works.  Isn't as dominating as might be expected but he's solid.
Umi 8/10.  Clearly the MVP since CSTW rewards ball lightning cannoning, which she can do, AND she can stall enemies with Siren's Call, AND she has solid healing, and she even gets the full-MT revive / status cure in Keep Fighting, which is awesome when you don't expect even boss fights to last past 7-9 turns or so.  A few cute Unites, too.
Sharpe - 6/10.  Fast ST damage, reasonable durability.  I'll take it.
October - 6/10 She kind of has to pick between uber MT damage and uber ST damage, but hey, she's good at both.  And if you went MT with her, you eventually get Death for broken ST 'damage'.  Pity about the speed & defense.
Paws - 4/10.  Cute tricks, some utility, is fast.  Is *fun* to use but sometimes just killing everything is better.
Dacre - 5/10.  Uhhhh.  I dunno what to make of Dacre.  "Cast an MT buff then MT healbot" seems a strong strategy against serious opposition, and he was quite helpful vs. the optional superboss.  And heck, not much wrong with that vs. randoms either, who cares that Holy is late.  Nevertheless, a strong feeling of meh since it feels like he doesn't pull his weight vs. easier randoms.  I'm probably still underrating him but whatever.
Ember - 3/10.  Has theoretical use (the all MT sweeping party, Volcanic Aura, use of Guard to draw attacks to him) yet I'd still rather use October.  Nice try at the slow tank, it feels like if Ember had been ubered anymore he'd be broken.
Dem Didn't use either.

I thought the Angels were pretty dang balanced, myself.  Played on Insane (although uh still not technically finished.  I should fix that.  2nd-to-last dungeon at least.)
October - 6/10.  I don't recall her earlygame sweeping being THAT good but maybe I picked the wrong level-up bonus.   Solid regardless.
Elona - 6/10.  Tanky, buffs over time, all the healing, ridiculous resouces, damage doesn't TOTALLY fail, she can help random-clear.  Solid support.
Dark Umi - 6/10.  The damage, all of it.  Fears the enemy damage, of course.  Super variable based on if enemies were spamming MT damage, if she can get away with draining hax, if she gets targeted at all, etc.
Molly - 5/10.  Yeah, she's got damage and tricks and healing and draining, so she's the ideal character to solo with if things go terribly wrong?  But all of her niches are done better by someone else in the full party.  Still solid, can defend to draw attacks to herself at worst and maybe get another round of Umi offense out.
Sara Nope.

Fenrir

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Re: Rank Characters based on In Game Use: Reboot!
« Reply #843 on: September 20, 2013, 03:20:51 PM »
Insane difficulty

Cthulhu: 5/10. The Cursed sword was the best thing about him. Otherwise he always felt substantially worse than Sharpe. The Insanity niche is cool but not that good, and it can backfire.
Umi: 6/10. She isn't fantastic against randoms, she kinda has to choose betwen healing (yes) and damage (no) and durability is a major issue. That said she's a better healer than Dacre.
Sharpe: 8/10. Very good speed/damage/durability makes him the most reliable damage dealer for the entire game.
October: 7/10. My midgame savior.
Paws: 2/10. I tried to find a niche for him the entire game. Meow is useful until Cthulhu gets the Cursed Sword. That's it.
Dacre: 4/10. So terrible against randoms. Can be a decent replacement for Umi as a healer against bosses.
Ember: 0.5/10. lol what

Meeplelard

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Re: Rank Characters based on In Game Use: Reboot!
« Reply #844 on: September 23, 2013, 03:16:26 PM »
I just want to note that I plan on doing updates on Saturdays.  Whether it's every Saturday or every other Saturday, I haven't decided; held back on this week because of when this session started (on a Wednesday.)  Just indicating this so people know what to expect when, and can hit me if I forget one week or something!

That said, overdue rankings:

Breath of Fire 4:
    AVERAGE   STD DEV
Nina   8.67   1.03
Ryu   7.33   1.03
Fou-lu   N/A   N/A
Ershin   4.33   1.03
Cray   3.17   0.68
Scias   6.75   0.76
Ursula   7.50   0.55

Cast Average: 6.29
Cast Standard Deviation: 2.10


Suikoden 3 DEFG
Duke   3.30   0.44
Dupa   2.80   0.44
Edge   5.30   1.30
Elaine   5.70   1.56
Emily   8.00   0.35
Estella   5.40   0.82
Franz   3.80   1.52
Fred   5.50   1.27
Fubar   5.20   1.10
Futch   5.00   2.23
Gadget Z   2.20   0.44
Gau-3   4.50   1.00

Highest Ranking of this Session: Nina w/ 8.64
Lowest Ranking of this Session: Gadget-Z w/ 2.20

Suiko 1/2/4/5 as I said did not gain sufficient votes from what I can tell, hence why not listed.  Also, no real point in getting arbitrary stats for Suiko 3 here since it's not the full cast; this is an exceptional situation, won't be the norm, don't worry.

Also, for my purposes, listing FE13 rankings in with the extra Decimal here:

Chrom: 7.17
Robin/Avatar: 8.94
Lissa: 3.94
Frederick: 6.77
Sully: 6.83
Virion: 3.28
Stahl: 4.94
Vaike: 4.00
Miriel: 5.89
Sumia: 7.22
Kellam: 4.28
Lon'qu: 5.22
Donnel: 4.00
Ricken: 2.17
Maribelle: 3.61
Panne: 6.81
Gaius: 5.00
Cordelia: 7.33
Gregor: 4.39
Nowi: 5.28
Libra: 5.83
Tharja: 8.44
Anna: 6.78
Olivia: 2.72
Cherche: 5.88
Henry: 5.06
Say'ri: 5.67
Tiki: 7.89
Basilio: 4.81
Flavia: 4.93

Lucina: 7.67
Owain: 3.00
Inigo: 3.00
Brady: 1.75
Kjelle: 5.92
Cynthia: 6.25
Severa: 5.20
Gerome: 4.10
Morgan: 6.71
Yarne: 4.80
Laurent: 4.00
Noire: 3.33
Nah: 4.00

Also, one last thing:
I have moved the Top/Bottom 20 to the first page of the topic.  From here on in, I will be updating that list rather than posting it repeatedly.  I feel if people are curious about the Top/Bottom 20, it makes more sense to put in an easily accessible place rather than repeatedly update every session.[/list]
« Last Edit: September 24, 2013, 11:20:06 PM by Meeplelard »
[21:39] <+Mega_Mettaur> so Snow...
[21:39] <+Mega_Mettaur> Sonic Chaos
[21:39] <+Hello-NewAgeHipsterDojimaDee> That's -brilliant-.

[17:02] <+Tengu_Man> Raven is a better comic relief PC than A

Meeplelard

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Re: Rank Characters based on In Game Use: Reboot!
« Reply #845 on: September 29, 2013, 01:16:18 AM »
Ok, might as well explain what's happening:

I'm listing everyone from the last session.  Those in itallics are "Have less than 5 votes" so regardless of their rating, they won't get on Top/Bottom lists.  With that said...

Mana Khemia 2:
   AVERAGE   STD DEV
Raze   6   1
Lily   7.3   0.45
Et   5.4   0.82
Yun   3.1   0.55
Puniyo   6.3   0.84

Ulrika   6.67   0.58
Chloe   5.67   0.58
Pepperoni   5.33   0.58
Enna   7.17   0.76
Goto   1.33   0.58


Standard Deviation of Raze Path: 1.57
Standard Deviation of Ulrika Path: 2.3
Standard Deviation of Entire (Ranked) Cast: 1.87

Cthulu Saves the World:
   AVERAGE   STD DEV
Cthulu   5.7   0.45
Umi   7.1   0.74
Sharpe   6   1.17
October   6   0.61
Paws   4.2   0.27
Dacre   3.2   1.3
Ember   2.3   1.15
Dem   N/A   N/A

October   7.05   0.76
Elona   5.25   0.5
Dark Umi   6.25   0.5
Molly   4.5   0.58
Sara   N/A   N/A


Standard Deviation of CSTW: 1.73
Standard Deviation of Cthulu's Angels: 1.12
Standard Deviation of Entire (Ranked) Cast: 1.53


If I screwed the above up in terms of who is what path or something, please speak up, I have not played either game.

THAT SAID, next game!  Please Read Footnote at bottom before rating:

Final Fantasy 4 (Advance):
Cecil:
Kain:
Rydia:
Tellah:
Edward-C:
Rosa:
Yang-C:
Palom-C:
Porom-C:
Cid-C:
Edge:
FuSoYa:

Edward-A:
Yang-A:
Palom-A:
Porom-A:
Cid-A:

Final Fantasy 4: The After Years:

Ceodore:
Biggs:
Wedge:
Cecil-T:
Rosa-T:
Cid-T:
Kain-T:

Rydia-T:
Luca:
Calca:
Brina:
Yang-T:
Ursula:

Palom-T:
Leonora:
Porom-T:
Edward-T:
Harley:

Edge-T:
Gekkou:
Izayoi:
Tsukinowa:
Zangetsu:
Golbez:
FuSoYa-T:

And for those who find them outright important...

Mysidia Black Mage (Ceodore):
Mysidia White Mage (Ceodore):
Fabulian Monk #1:
Fabulian Monk #2:
Fabulian Monk #3:
Mysidia Black Mage (Porom):
Mysidia Black Mage (Porom):
Mysidian Elder:
Damcyan Soldier #1:
Damcyan Soldier #2:
Damcyan Soldier #3:


Ok, a quick explanation for how we're handling this:

First off, for FF4 proper, this is based on only 2D versions of the game.  Yes, there are differences between versions like FF2us vs. FF4 Hard, but they're similar enough I feel it shouldn't cause too huge a discrepancy.  Mostly just saying "don't vote on FF4DS" where the game itself plays significantly differently.

FF4TAY is self explanatory.  For why a number of characters have a "T" on them?  That's just for organization purposes.  It makes the character easier to find and is basically labelling "This is their FF4TAY form."  Mostly there to help remind people which version they're talking about, but not really important.

The ones that are important, though, are the C and A, which are used on FF4 itself.  As we know, FF4 Advance brings back a number of temps as Permanent PCs and they get significant upgrades as a result.  Personally, I don't think its fair we have a huge discrepancy in ratings because "I didn't play this version so this character sucked" type responses.  on the otherhand, it was noted its not fair for those who didn't play one version to have to abstain from voting.

So best way to handle it is to rate those characters twice:

C = Classic.  The character in their original form.  None of the bonuses they get from the Advance version apply here.
A = Advance.  This is those characters taking those boosts into account.

Naturally, people who played Advance versions are still capable of voting on classic versions, but the reverse isn't necessarily true.  This is probably the best way to handle it, as complicated as I am making it sound <_<
« Last Edit: October 07, 2013, 05:01:09 AM by Meeplelard »
[21:39] <+Mega_Mettaur> so Snow...
[21:39] <+Mega_Mettaur> Sonic Chaos
[21:39] <+Hello-NewAgeHipsterDojimaDee> That's -brilliant-.

[17:02] <+Tengu_Man> Raven is a better comic relief PC than A

Luther Lansfeld

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Re: Rank Characters based on In Game Use: Reboot!
« Reply #846 on: September 29, 2013, 03:14:37 AM »
Final Fantasy 4 (Advance):
Cecil: 8.5/10. Cecil is a solid PC throughout the game; he goes through some harder times late but even then is still the third best PC?
Kain: 3.5/10. Takes care of himself well enough while in the party, but Jump is vastly inferior to Cover for a tanky character and his damage isn't very good without it.
Rydia: 8/10. Is a bit weak early, but by the final dungeon she just firebombs everything.
Tellah: 6/10. Is decent when he is around.
Edward-C: 1/10 no
Rosa: 7.5/10. Solid healer with good damage late.
Yang-C: 3.5/10. A bit like Kain.
Palom-C: 3/10. Bad but has some black magic which is kinda cool?
Porom-C: 2.5/10.
Cid-C: 3.5/10. A bit like Kain as well.
Edge: 4/10. One point for situational status damage use, but he is atrocious in the final dungeon where he is most present.
FuSoYa: 5/10. A decent temp, even with the low MP reserves.

Final Fantasy 4: The After Years:

Ceodore: 7/10. A solid PC one he catches up, but it takes him some time to do so.
Biggs: DNR
Wedge: DNR
Cecil-T: 3/10. Slow and bad damage? Sounds like my kinda tank!
Rosa-T: 7.5/10. Is pretty much the same character as in the original.
Cid-T: 3/10. Yeah he's pretty shitty.
Kain-T: 8/10. Fuck the universe forever. Scar designed this game didn't he.

Rydia-T: 8/10. Suffers through less bad early game but is less completely broken in the final dungeon.
Luka: 4/10. Minerva makes her better than her master.
Calca: 2/10
Brina: 1.5/10
Yang-T: 8/10.
Ursula: 8/10. Behold, the power of fisting action.

Palom-T: 7/10 Puts up a respectable fight vs. Rydia, but is still worse.
Leonora: 2.5/10. This is divine punishment.
Porom-T: 7/10. Puts up a respectable fight vs. Rosa, but is still worse.
Edward-T: 6/10. The MT healing is very yummy, but the lack of buffs turns me off a bit for the primary support person.
Harley: 1/10. No.

Edge-T: 8/10. Pumped some iron in the last 17 years of manchildery
Gekkou: 4/10. Axe people are not what they call good in this game.
Izayoi: 2.5/10. Bad skillset.
Tsukinowa: 2.5/10. Made of wet tissue paper.
Zangetsu: 2/10. Why are these fuggin' terrible characters even in the game
Golbez: 8.5/10. MVP due to having hella HP and dragging you through hard shit.
FuSoYa-T: 6/10. Was definitely the weaker of the two in his chapter but kept the thing afloat well enough.
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Random Consonant

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Re: Rank Characters based on In Game Use: Reboot!
« Reply #847 on: September 29, 2013, 04:34:49 AM »
Final Fantasy 4 (Advance):
Cecil: He is always around and never really bad.  7.5/10
Kain: Not really useful, but doesn't approach liability territory.  3.5/10
Rydia: Bad start but then she makes things go boom.  7.5/10
Tellah: Solid and around for parts where you need him.  6/10
Edward-C: lol.  1/10
Rosa: Heal all the dudes.  7.5/10
Yang-C: A bit like Kain.  3.5/10
Palom-C: Kind of eh.  3.5/10
Porom-C: Kind of bleh.  2.5/10
Cid-C: Kind of like Kain.  3.5/10
Edge: Spends time as a blood stain on the floor.  3/10
FuSoYa: Eh.  4/10

Edward-A: Still not very good.  1.5/10
Yang-A: A bit better than Kain with the bonuses?  4/10
Palom-A: Hey now he has spells.  5.5/10
Porom-A: Hey now she has spells.  5.5/10
Cid-A: A bit better than Kain with the bonuses?  4/10

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Re: Rank Characters based on In Game Use: Reboot!
« Reply #848 on: October 03, 2013, 02:18:16 AM »
Final Fantasy 4 (Advance):
Cecil: 9/10. Doesn't have a ton of damage lategame, but has everything else. He fits what you need from a game like FF4 perfectly, which is a lot of durability and some support.
Kain: 4.5/10. Kain's always competent, he's got a good stat spread and useful equips... till the very end. Fuck the Holy Lance. -2 if we're counting 4a, he's probably up there for worst option you can take in the final dungeon.  His Avenger build is very good on damage and Cecil shouldn't use it (no cover!) which is his saving grace for the midgame.
Rydia:  8/10 .What others said. No real MP concerns either. She is kind of bad early on and struggles in a few boss fights, but it's not enough to ding her score.
Tellah: 6/10. He's kinda bad until he gets his spells back, but look the fuck out afterward. He is near total dead weight in Zot, but the earlier boss ass kicking is too good.
Edward-C: 0.5/10. Okay, no. He is Rydia without magic. That is beyond awful.
Rosa:  7/10. She's very useful for bosses and is surprisingly okay at physicals.  Holy is nice offense but it's awfully late.
Yang-C:  5/10. He's pretty competent, high HP and can always hit an elemental weakness. Status claws are okay but Edge gets much more use out of them. The Hell Claw's status is kinda shitty, Fairie claw has a nice species weakness but lowers accuracy, which makes the speed boost a eh tradeoff. Catclaw is great but is awfully late unless you get lucky on a drop.
Palom-C: 5.5 Yay offense! Less yay is the HP.
Porom-C: 2.5/10. Really bad in practice, she's Rosa with 2/3ds the HP.  You only really use healing on bosses in FF4 (and certain dangerous randoms, but that's after she leaves), and the ones during her arc tend to get Tellah'ed pretty badly. Most of her use comes from holy arrow physicals being fairly competent on Mt ordeals.
Cid-C: 3/10. Slow and less durable than you'd expect due to no shields. Gaia hammer is a fantastic weapon that Cid does not get to use for long enough; you get it at the very tail end of his last dungeon.  Cid's something of a weird case on equips as well. In spite of using heavy armor, he gets no real use from them in the main game. He's best off running the Kenpo Ki/Headband for the stats, even ignoring the metallic cave.
Edge: 5/10. The fact that most of his use until the Moon relies on estortic strategies like Catclaws and hitting species weakness says it all about how bad Edge is at first otherwise He has the *same HP* as Cid did when he first joined and his defense is a liability until Genji Armor. That said he's got use, and his offense jumps ahead of Kain's in the final dungeon because the Holy Spear is such shit. -1 for 4a, he faces a lot of competition for spots.
FuSoYa: 5/10. Yeah, competent. Not much to say, skillset's awesome and you make full use of it (Reflect's great for Bahamut, the magic's good for the four fiends revisited). He's dead weight for the CPU core, but so it goes.

It's a game where everyone has some use outside of Edward.

Edward-A: 4/10. Awesome at randomslaying in the lunar ruins. Totally worthless on Zeromus thanks to the HP. He seriously breaks a couple of fights just due to his weapon hitting weakness on dragons/undead.
Yang-A: 8/10. Stupid durable, hits a ton of weaknesses. He can slap on a thunderclaw and hit weakness on machines, which lets him deal with evilmasks. This totally makes Cid obsolete, as that is the special effect of his weapon.
Palom-A:  7/10. His int's high enough to get away with spamming Quake. Black magic also does horrible things to the lunar ruins.
Porom-A: 2/10. I don't see a reason to use her. She's a little faster than Rosa and has better spirit, but that HP. No.
Cid-A: 1.5/10. *Awful*. Slowest PC in the game by a mile, his weapon's one trait is totally replaced by the Thunder claw. His aftergame gear is pretty junky too. He's durable which is worth something, but... yeah. I've used him and he's notably worse than the mighty Kain.

Final Fantasy 4: The After Years:

Ceodore: 8/10. Nice mix of skillset and status.
Biggs: N/A
Wedge: N/A
Cecil-T: 4/10. Bad for half the final chapter, inferior to Kain/Cedore/Golbez once he's unzombied. Cover's much less useful in this game as well.
Rosa-T: 8/10. See Ciatokins, but with a note that really need white magic in this game!
Cid-T: 1/10. In the running for worst non joke PC in the game. Holy shit. Axes are a terrible weapon class in this game, he's slower than fuck and he tops out at Dragoon armor.
Kain-T: 7.5/10.  Ceo gets a few equips he doesn't and has a slightly better skillset. Otherwise, yeah. Very good PC in this game. I blame Scar.

Rydia-T: 8/10. Still kicks ass.
Luca: 3.5/10. She's done in by how awful axes are.
Calca: 0/10. Absolutely worthless .
Brina: 0/10. See above. You're better off killing them and letting Rydia/Luca get the EXP.
Yang-T: 8/10. Claw user.
Ursula: 8.5/10. Half a point for specializing more in speed than STR. Both her and Yang are seriously nuts.

Palom-T:  See Porom.
Leonora: 3.5/10. White mage with Osmose is something, but her spells are way way *WAY* too late.
Porom-T: Pass, I didn't use either of the twins.
Edward-T: 5/10. Has uses! HP is still bad, so eh.
Harley: 0/10. I think she's worse than Edward in 4o. He at least was a warm body at his point. Harley isn't even that.

Edge-T: 8/10. :-*
Gekkou: 4/10. I think he's the best of the axe users in the game. Just... axes are shit and he's competing with Edge and Yang for armor.
Izayoi: 1/10. Awful.
Tsukinowa: 1/10. Get some HP.
Zangetsu:  3/10. He's Kain with ninja armor. It's.... um. Mostly bad, but he's better than the superscrub ninjas.
Golbez: 8.5/10. I find him kind of eh in the second half; no status magic's a downer on a black mage and his INT's only okay. Still, he carries your team at the start of the final arc and he's a durable black mage.
`FuSoYa-T: NA
"Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself"- Count Aral Vorkosigan, A Civil Campaign
-------------------
<Meeple> knownig Square-enix, they'll just give us a 2nd Kain
<Ciato> he would be so kawaii as a chibi...

DjinnAndTonic

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Re: Rank Characters based on In Game Use: Reboot!
« Reply #849 on: October 03, 2013, 03:20:08 AM »
Final Fantasy 4 (Advance):
Cecil: 7.5 - Overall good at his job and always around. Damage and Durability w/ Cover is pretty awesome.
Kain: 4 - Weird availability + lackluster version of Cecil's game and no Cover. +.5 for stopping spins.
Rydia: 8 - The ka-boom. That speed though... Considering lowering her half a point, but she feels slightly better than Cecil.
Tellah: 3 - Spells are good in FF4, too bad he can't use them more than like twice. Apparently I have to Osmose Cecil to use Tellah? Sounds like a point in Cecil's favor.
Edward-C: 2 - Way to be useless. Warm body points.
Rosa: 7 - Healbot with good availability.
Yang-C: 4 - More crucial warm body when he's around.
Palom-C: 3 - Magic! Availability sucks.
Porom-C: 4 - Healbot! Availability again.
Cid-C: 2 - Only because he's not an outright liability.
Edge: 6 - Finally, Speed! I need a long-term item boy. I guess image and stuff have uses too.
FuSoYa: 4 - Less limited version of Tellah?

Edward-A: 5 - Much better! Has a niche.
Yang-A: 5.5?
Palom-A: 6
Porom-A: 6.5
Cid-A: 2

Final Fantasy 4: The After Years:

Ceodore: 7.5 His daddy's tricks but better! He's in a harder game, so it evens out?
Biggs: NA
Wedge: NA
Cecil-T: 3 Way to be OLD, dad.
Rosa-T: 6 JRPG women never get old, apparently.
Cid-T: 2 Still pretty terrible.
Kain-T: 8 Ugh. Physically painful.

Rydia-T: 8 Duking it out for top PC.
Luka: 5 - Not terrible, kinda feels like what Cid wanted to be. Very useful in Rydia's chapter if nothing else.
Calca: 1 - Liability.
Brina: 1 - Liability.
Yang-T: 7 - Speed and Power, who would have guessed that's a winning combo in a JRPG?
Ursula: 7.5 - Better than daddy.

Palom-T: 6.5 or 7 - Hey, you got useful! He's a 7 if you give him Doublecast. Unfortunately half your mages are fighting over Doublecast. He's the best option usually since he makes things dead...
Leonora: 3 - Interesting experiment. Will never be as good as your other mages since you shouldn't ever be grinding to level 99. Theoretically better than any other mage if you do, though? I guess that's worth a point.
Porom-T: 6 - Another excellent Healbot, and also has Slow, the brokenest spell. But there's a lot more healbots and she would have to have Doublecast to really be any better or worse than them.
Edward-T: 7 - What an upgrade! At the highest levels, he can be the best support character in the game. Is also notably the best PC in his chapter! (lol)
Harley: 1 - Another outright liability.

Edge-T: 8 - Competing for the best PC in the game. Speed and damage potential are ridiculous. Dual-wielding and the new ninjaskills are just cake.
Gekkou: 2
Izayoi: 1
Tsukinowa: 3 - high speed and dual-wielding means that if you squint and overlevel him, he could be a second Edge?
Zangetsu: 1
Golbez: 7.5 - Awesome mage, seriously drags your underlevelled PCs through their rough patches towards endgame.
FuSoYa-T: 5.5 Functional healbot and backup mage! Better than Leonora, though can't get Dualcast...