Author Topic: Rank Characters based on In Game Use: Reboot!  (Read 141796 times)

Dhyerwolf

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Re: Rank Characters based on In Game Use: Reboot!
« Reply #850 on: October 03, 2013, 03:50:52 AM »
Ceodore: 7.5 His daddy's tricks but better! He's in a harder game, so it evens out?

Shouldn't both better tricks and in a harder game mean that he's worth more for two reasons instead of evening out?
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DjinnAndTonic

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Re: Rank Characters based on In Game Use: Reboot!
« Reply #851 on: October 03, 2013, 08:42:29 PM »
Maybe a better way to put it is that his tricks are less dominating. Even though if he had the same things in FF4, he'd be better than Cecil.

SnowFire

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Re: Rank Characters based on In Game Use: Reboot!
« Reply #852 on: October 04, 2013, 05:25:24 AM »
FF4 has fixed parties, ergo someone can be worse than someone else at everyone but still useful, ergo Edward is saved from the score he'd get in a game with party choice.  Assuming FF2 US below.

Final Fantasy 4:
Cecil: 7/10.  Hard to kill, consistent damage, random Cover hax.
Kain: 6/10.  Can theoretically solo with Jump if things go to hell, can hide in the back row, but eh.
Rydia: 8/10.  Nukes everything.
Tellah: 5/10.  Does everything but with limited MP.
Edward-C: 2/10.  Uhhh theoretically an item boy if the game was harder.
Rosa: 7/10.  "Spam MT healing and attack" beats FF4 like it does most RPGs.  Reasonably hard to kill thanks to back row.
Yang-C: 5/10.  Exists.
Palom-C: 6/10.  Blows everything up, back row helps his miserable durability not get punished.
Porom-C: 6/10.  Frailer Rosa.
Cid-C: 5/10.  Exists.
Edge: 3/10.  Has to sit in the front row where he dies to both magic & physicals, fairly trashy skillset.
FuSoYa: 7/10.  Rosa + Rydia in one?  'k.

Cmdr_King

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Re: Rank Characters based on In Game Use: Reboot!
« Reply #853 on: October 04, 2013, 06:25:13 AM »
Final Fantasy 4 (Advance):
Cecil: 7/10.
Kain: 4/10.
Rydia: 8/10.
Tellah: 4/10.
Edward-C: 3/10.  Well, marginally better than any empty slot anyways.
Rosa: 7/10.
Yang-C: 4/10.
Palom-C: 3/10.
Porom-C: 4/10.
Cid-C: 3/10.
Edge: 6/10.
FuSoYa: 7/10.

Edward-A:
Yang-A:
Palom-A:
Porom-A:
Cid-A: And I haven't played any Advanced FFIV.

Final Fantasy 4: The After Years:

Ceodore: 6/10.  Useful but never quite top 5 material.
Biggs: DNR
Wedge: DNR
Cecil-T: 3/10.
Rosa-T: 6/10
Cid-T: 2/10.  Holy hell cid.
Kain-T: 6/10.  About as good as ceo?  Not as flexible but great raw stats.

Rydia-T: 8/10.  Rydia is easily the most consistent character in all versions of FFIV.  She kicks seven shades of ass at all times.
Luka:  5/10.  Has her niches.  I thought it was Lucca though?
Calca: 4/10.
Brina: 5/10.  Well someone's gotta heal in that party.
Yang-T: 7/10.
Ursula: 7/10.  Yang and Ursula are different... but in ways that even out to about as good.  Which is really good.

Palom-T: 6/10.
Leonora: 4/10.
Porom-T: 7/10
Edward-T: 6/10.
Harley: 2/10.

Edge-T: 8/10.  Basically I think every TAY party is Rydia, Edge, one of the three healers, and then you pick your favorites from Yang/Ursula/Kain/Ceo/Palom.
Gekkou: 4/10.
Izayoi: 3/10.
Tsukinowa: 2/10.
Zangetsu: 2/10.
Golbez: 8/10.  Vital, but the HP being static so long is a definite downer so I tend not to prefer him for final party duties.
FuSoYa-T: 5/10.  Not bad, but Golbez really outshines him.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2013, 06:41:27 AM by Cmdr_King »
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superaielman

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Re: Rank Characters based on In Game Use: Reboot!
« Reply #854 on: October 04, 2013, 03:25:25 PM »
Quote
Edward-C: 3/10.  Well, marginally better than any empty slot anyways.

You would be wrong. EXP focuses in FF4; you're better off letting Edward die and giving that EXP to Cecil/Rydia.
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Cmdr_King

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Re: Rank Characters based on In Game Use: Reboot!
« Reply #855 on: October 04, 2013, 07:49:17 PM »
I don't buy it.  Experience gain at that point is trivial, and technically speaking only Rosa isn't 'wasting' experience.  Except Rosa is barely in the party at this point.  If you absolutely feel the need to grind DK cecil (... why?  The only hard fight he ever faces his stats don't MATTER for), just wait for the Deathbringer or whatever.  Having Ed around to be an extra target and toss potions is still marginally useful at times, and fights would be ever so slightly harder without him in that role.  So, he gets points above "never use" (which I've always represented with a 2, sub-2 being reserved for 'negative' numbers where the character actively makes the game harder by existing).
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Luther Lansfeld

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Re: Rank Characters based on In Game Use: Reboot!
« Reply #856 on: October 04, 2013, 08:25:37 PM »
So you are giving a character credit for clogging up your party with terrible? Personally, I'd prefer to give credit to Kongol who is never forced!
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SnowFire

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Re: Rank Characters based on In Game Use: Reboot!
« Reply #857 on: October 04, 2013, 08:49:35 PM »
Well sure.  The best Legend of Dragoon character solo is far weaker than the best LoD character + 2 buddies clogging the party up with badness.  The goal isn't "highest average score!"  Edward vs. an intentionally dead body will absorb some enemy hits and can throw some items.  If you stick Kongol in your party, you have to remove someone better.

And see CK for super's argument, Rosa getting a piddly amount of extra XP is irrelevant (and I think she still gets either a huge XP boost or a set level after rescue anyway).

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Rank Characters based on In Game Use: Reboot!
« Reply #858 on: October 05, 2013, 12:00:30 AM »
I strongly disagree with giving people credit for being better than an empty party slot, since that's something that virtually every PC ever is (unless there's some weird loss condition attached to them or something). Also Edward is absolutely awful, as far as "uses items" PC goes he's amazingly bad at it, far worse than any other skillsetless FF4 PC due to far lower HP, and the fact that at critical HP you lose control of him. i.e. what the fuck is he doing at the same score as Cid, CK?

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superaielman

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Re: Rank Characters based on In Game Use: Reboot!
« Reply #859 on: October 05, 2013, 12:52:04 AM »
Snowfire: Yang, Rydia, Kain, Rosa all rejoin at basically close to party levels. Everyone joins the party for the first time at fixed levels. 

Edward has no value. Again, his functional HP is the worst in the game even before hide. If FF4 was hard during his arc, you'd have to put him in the back row and pray that he isn't OHKOed/knocked into hiding. Getting hit into hiding is *worse* than getting killed, since you can't just easily revive Edward at that point. Sing sucks, his physical is awful and even though DKC sections of FF4 are easy, it's still incredibly common to see randoms with decent physicals. Those randoms flatten Edward.  Edge, who joins the team underleveled and with bad armor, is still more durable than Edward. He has status that matters, a physical that isn't *lol* and actually gains HP and has a decent speed score. Edge has some problems when he first joins, and he is still so much better than Edward that it isn't funny. Edge also gets better through catching up in levels. 4o Edward has no such saving grace.

I also disagree strongly re: Snowfire on Porom. White mages in FF4 are pretty shitty until Edge joins (When randoms start getting some serious firepower).  Potions out of battle make for effective healing. Porom's marginally useful for Milon and argubly Baigan, but Tellah can do the white magic thing as well. Porom's main strength in game is twincast till Palom gets fire2 (So before Ordeals barring really strange rng luck) and having a competent physical for Ordeals.
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Cmdr_King

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Re: Rank Characters based on In Game Use: Reboot!
« Reply #860 on: October 05, 2013, 03:11:52 AM »
I strongly disagree with giving people credit for being better than an empty party slot, since that's something that virtually every PC ever is (unless there's some weird loss condition attached to them or something). Also Edward is absolutely awful, as far as "uses items" PC goes he's amazingly bad at it, far worse than any other skillsetless FF4 PC due to far lower HP, and the fact that at critical HP you lose control of him. i.e. what the fuck is he doing at the same score as Cid, CK?

Cid's absolutely better, but not enough so to reflect numerically more or less.  Unless memory fails me, Ed is almost always around when there's three total party members (either Cecil/Tellah/Edward or Cecil/Yang/Edward, yes?) while Cid is almost always with four in the party (Cecil/Tellah/Yang/Cid), so the relative value of "distracts enemies and throws potions" is higher.  Beyond that, while Cid is better at that job, that's not a very valuable job to start with.  Just more valuable than "corpse", which is your only other option because it's FFIV.  In fact, I'd actually respect the "corpse is more valuable because split experience" argument far more for cid because by that point you have Paladin Cecil, and short term difficulty for long term level advantage is actually possible on him (although I still don't agree with the argument).

Fundamentally I use how characters affect game difficulty as the first criteria for their in-game use.  So 9s and 10s are reserved for characters who break the game, and 0s and 1s for characters who make the game harder.  After that, you start with 2 for "should never be in party" and 8 as "should always be in party", and a sliding scale in between of how much characters add to your ability to complete the game.  Since Edward isn't taking up a character slot that could be filled by someone better, he rates at least a 2, and while his contributions beyond that are minimal, they do exist, so 3.  Cid is in about the same boat because, while he is better than Edward because HP, I'd also never willingly put him in my party if offered the option, so anything higher than a 3 seems dishonest, I guess.
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Fenrir

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Re: Rank Characters based on In Game Use: Reboot!
« Reply #861 on: October 05, 2013, 10:32:25 AM »
Not rating but :

Rydia's all show. She summons a dragon and does multitarget 9999 damage.  Against randoms you're using her fucking whip to not consume MP, against worthwhile enemies she dies all the time and doesn't even have that much DPS over the boys.

Edge doesn't have unlimited Fumas in game. He takes a while to catch up. His physical attack and durability are a lot worse than Kain's/Cecil's. His speed barely gives him more turns. And seriously do you use his magic? Like a lot? Image can rarely save his ass and that's about all for him. Kain's superior.

Fuck those two, every playthrough I regret not killing them and giving all my exp to Rosa/Cecil/Kain.

Also TAY Cid should never have anything over 1. You guys should use this bastard endgame. He very well might be the slowest RPG character ever.

Reiska

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Re: Rank Characters based on In Game Use: Reboot!
« Reply #862 on: October 05, 2013, 02:58:38 PM »
Well sure.  The best Legend of Dragoon character solo is far weaker than the best LoD character + 2 buddies clogging the party up with badness.  The goal isn't "highest average score!"  Edward vs. an intentionally dead body will absorb some enemy hits and can throw some items.  If you stick Kongol in your party, you have to remove someone better.

And see CK for super's argument, Rosa getting a piddly amount of extra XP is irrelevant (and I think she still gets either a huge XP boost or a set level after rescue anyway).

FF4 characters always join at a fixed level the first time they join.  If they leave the party after that, then all EXP gained by the party is also invisibly given to them in the background; this is how PCs appear to "keep up" later in the game.  It also means for example that if you, say, kill off everyone else and grind Cecil to level 99 on Mt. Ordeals, then everyone will be level 99 when they rejoin (except for the people who were in the Ordeals party, so the twins, and the people who haven't initially joined yet, so Edge/Fusoya).  This functionality is basically how the standard speedrun route beats Zeromus, by grinding Rosa and Fusoya off clockwork dragons using a Tornado/Raise loop or somesuch with the rest of the party dead, feeding all that focused EXP to not-currently-in-party Kain.

I'll post my actual rankings in a bit, that said.

Luther Lansfeld

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Re: Rank Characters based on In Game Use: Reboot!
« Reply #863 on: October 05, 2013, 04:34:00 PM »
Rydia's all show. She summons a dragon and does multitarget 9999 damage.  Against randoms you're using her fucking whip to not consume MP, against worthwhile enemies she dies all the time and doesn't even have that much DPS over the boys.

lrn2ether bro
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Reiska

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Re: Rank Characters based on In Game Use: Reboot!
« Reply #864 on: October 05, 2013, 04:39:34 PM »
Final Fantasy 4 (Advance):
Cecil: 7.  Solid PC, probably not gamebest, never a liability in parts of the game that matter.
Kain: 6.  Equal to or better than Cecil until the Excalibur comes into play, then never catches up again, but still is better than an empty slot.
Rydia: 7.  I feel like she's a little overrated, but only a little.  Probably has a solid argument for gamebest in the end, it's either her or Cecil, but she has a notably bad start - her offense is pretty much notably subpar for the most part before she learns Bio, and that's quite a while.  (-ra spells are good against weaknesses, pretty bad otherwise, while most summons are somewhat badly overcosted and take too long to charge IMO).
Tellah: 5.  Warm body, his MP pool is seriously unfortunate and his deficiencies begin to show badly in his second stint with the party.  His score is notably higher for his first stint, where basic elements are still useful damage.  Still, he gains points for completely trivializing most of the bosses he faces (and loses some of those points for being worthless against randoms).
Edward-C: 1.  Itembot in a game that doesn't need an itembot.
Rosa: 8.  Significantly better MP-less damage options than Rydia (in fact, certain equipment setups can get her to being competitive with Kain/pre-Excalibur Cecil), then add on the fact that FF4 white magic is mostly great.  You'll notice I rate her higher than Cecil or Rydia but don't put her in the running for gamebest PC; my logic behind this is that she functions more as an enabler for the two of them rather than being gamebest in her own right.  If you want to split hairs they could really all be 7.5 but I feel like Rydia is appreciably worse in a vacuum where Rosa is not next to her tossing heals and I'm trying to reflect that in the scores.
Yang-C: 6.  Solid PC while he's around, durability is a little weird (lots of HP but his defense is kind of subpar at some points). 
Palom-C: 5.  Black mage who only exists in the pre-Bio phase, but is somewhat saved by Twin.  He's mostly useless in randoms while you have him because he just doesn't have enough MP to sling spells that are worth a damn for a dungeon length.
Porom-C: 3.  Significantly worse Rosa in a part of the game where item healing solidly outperforms anything she can ever do.
Cid-C: 2.  Kain without speed.  Not a good place.
Edge: 5.  See Super's comments, basically.
Fusoya: 5, see Tellah, most of same issues apply.

Edward-A: 3.  Stupid weapon, durability is still a severe liability.
Yang-A: 7.  Might have a legitimate argument for gamebest PC in FF4A, but it's probably a bit of a longshot one.  Clearly better than Kain for endgame use.
Palom-A: 6.  Slightly worse Rydia.
Porom-A: 6.  Still significantly worse Rosa, but she's available now.
Cid-A: 1.  Same problems as before, now has more competition.  Get the fuck out.

Final Fantasy 4: The After Years:

Ceodore: 8.  Better than his dad where it matters (Speed), the places where his dad outperforms him are either irrelevant or easily covered by equipment.
Biggs: DNR
Wedge: DNR
Cecil-T: 5.  Crippling availability issues aside, he's exactly the same as his original incarnation in a notably more difficult game where he has to compete with better PCs for both his formerly exclusive gear and his party slot.
Rosa-T: 7.  Also basically the same as her original incarnation, but her physical has gotten relatively worse and her competition has improved notably.
Cid-T: 2.  Basically the same as before.
Kain-T: 8.  Even if you don't twink his HP/MP, legit argument for gamebest, his white magic selection is basically perfect for what he does, his damage is great, and his equipment selection is notably better than the original game.  +1 if you do twink his HP/MP, which puts his durability into stupidly high levels.

Rydia-T: 6.  Basically the same as before, in a game where her summons' charge times feel like they matter more *and* the really good summons are significantly more missable than they were before.  Not a winning situation for her.
Luca: 5.  Solid, never a liability, also never a standout.  Occupies the same kind of place that Kain does in FF4o.
Calca: 1, novelty PC.
Brina: 1, novelty PC.
Yang-T: 7.  Has actually improved since the previous game, but not by enough to raise him a point.
Ursula: 8.  See Ceodore argument, this one is exactly the same.

Palom-T: 7.  Yes I am ranking him above Rydia.  Better intelligence, less FAQ-baity for his good damage, and IIRC he gets some of the money spells faster than Rydia does, plus MT Break feels significantly more useful in this game and he gets that earlier too, plus lategame possibility of Dualcast.  Sorry, dualcast Meteor is better than anything Rydia will ever do.  -0.5 without Dualcast, that said.
Leonora: 4.  She is basically Fire Emblem Est logic applied to an FF game, and learns her spells hideously late even if she is in the running for Dualcast.
Porom-T: 8.  Basically the same as before but with IIRC slightly improved durability.  Is a potential user of Dualcast, and IMO probably the best one, in spite of what Palom gains from it, because *she* gains the ability to dual up MT Curaja->Holy or somesuch.
Edward-T: 6.  Best raw healer in the game, at the expense of non-healing support.  If you can get that from elsewhere in your party, great.
Harley: 2.  Better than Calca/Brina, still terrible.  She really wishes she had the dummied Blue Magic command that was likely intended for her.

Edge-T: 8.  Improved so much from the original game it's not even funny, and now solid contender for gamebest.
Gekkou: 6.  Better Luca.  Easily the best of the bonus ninjas.
Izayoi: 3.  She's helpful for Edge's chapter, but is pretty crappy beyond that.
Tsukinowa: 4.  Notably worse Edge, helpful in Edge's chapter though.
Zangetsu: 2.  Notably worse FF4o Kain (not TAY Kain).  Yeaaah.
Golbez: 7.  Tank mages are awesome.  Misses some of the Black Magic versatility that Rydia/Palom get but he does get the money spells and he can do serviceable damage without MP.  Carries an underleveled party if you didn't do challenge dungeons and such.
FuSoYa-T: DNR.

Reiska

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Re: Rank Characters based on In Game Use: Reboot!
« Reply #865 on: October 05, 2013, 04:40:43 PM »
Rydia's all show. She summons a dragon and does multitarget 9999 damage.  Against randoms you're using her fucking whip to not consume MP, against worthwhile enemies she dies all the time and doesn't even have that much DPS over the boys.

lrn2ether bro

FF4 does not actually throw quite enough ethers at you to spam them with reckless abandon prior to very lategame when you have nothing else to spend money on, especially with its encounter rates.

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Rank Characters based on In Game Use: Reboot!
« Reply #866 on: October 05, 2013, 04:57:58 PM »
It's true that you can't spam them like mad, but (a) you do get quite a few of them and you should use them rather than hording them until endgame, (b) Osmose exists and most dungeons have something it works reasonably well on, and (c) most of her spell costs aren't that high and FF4 dungeons don't go that long between save points.

Basically the reason Rydia gets high scores is because her MP isn't that big a concern. Even if she does run out late in a dungeon and you don't/can't restore it, she has still crushed so many encounters to get to that point.

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Reiska

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Re: Rank Characters based on In Game Use: Reboot!
« Reply #867 on: October 05, 2013, 05:58:26 PM »
It's true that you can't spam them like mad, but (a) you do get quite a few of them and you should use them rather than hording them until endgame, (b) Osmose exists and most dungeons have something it works reasonably well on, and (c) most of her spell costs aren't that high and FF4 dungeons don't go that long between save points.

Basically the reason Rydia gets high scores is because her MP isn't that big a concern. Even if she does run out late in a dungeon and you don't/can't restore it, she has still crushed so many encounters to get to that point.

a) Fair enough, yeah, I seem to remember getting around 40 of them on the approach to the final dungeon?
b) I personally have always found FF4 Osmose to be really terrible, easily the worst Osmose in the series, since it takes so long to charge that you generally have to deliberately drag battles out beyond their natural length by having the rest of the party defend if you want it to actually go off and hit something that has MP, and then it still only drains like enough for 1-2 spells per shot against anything I've ever used it on, so I'm not inclined to give Osmose much credit.
c) -ras are 15, Bio is 20, -gas are 30, basic summons are 30, actually good summons are 40+ against an MP pool which is barely over 200 when you first get her (if not under 200, depending on levels?) and doesn't really break 400 until late game.  Save point frequency is a very valid point though. 

To be perfectly fair I think Rydia's bigger issue is charge times rather than MP costs.  She's still the overall best raw damage dealer in the group overall in spite of both concerns, though, I'll agree there.  So I'm probably weighting her charge times and survivability problems heavier than you are.

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Rank Characters based on In Game Use: Reboot!
« Reply #868 on: October 05, 2013, 07:18:27 PM »
-Is charge times a thing in later versions of FF4 or something? Because in SNES and PSX I barely noticed them at all, outside Meteor, at least if you kept your wisdom/will up. TAY was the first version of the game I played where I found them at all significant. I didn't have any problem with Osmose either.
-Also, I want to make an illustration about the damage scale. Here's the figures circa Rubicant, according to the stat thread.

Cecil's Physical (Ogre Axe): 700
Kain's Jump (Blizzard Spear): 1250
Kain's Physical: 625
Rosa's Aim: 350
Rydia's level 2s: 750 (15 MP)
Rydia's Elemental Summons: 1100 MT (30 MP)
Rydia's Bio: 1500 (20 MP)
Rydia's Titan: 2000 MT (40 MP)
Edge's Blitz: 600
(Edge's physical isn't listed, it's a bit worse than Kain's IIRC... probably ~500?)

(Rydia has ~300 MP at this point.)

Basically, Rydia has 14+ shots of damage which is literally twice as good as what anyone else has. That's singletarget with Bio, never mind what she can do if she hits a weakness or you face lots of enemies at once for her to mop up. Even if she runs out of MP and you can't find anything to Osmose and you don't want to use ethers, she can physical for 300-400 less than what the fighters do. It'll take a lot of turns of this to make up for all the turns where she had 800-1000 more damage than the fighters, minimum... far more than is reasonable.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2013, 07:22:23 PM by Dark Holy Elf »

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Random Consonant

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Re: Rank Characters based on In Game Use: Reboot!
« Reply #869 on: October 05, 2013, 07:34:12 PM »
Speaking as someone who had fairly recently played FF4a while between computers, Rydia's MP doesn't really matter that much (and I am pretty down with Osmose hate), nor do her charge times.  I think FF4DS is the only one where they're actually onerous.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2013, 07:41:27 PM by Random Consonant »

Reiska

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Re: Rank Characters based on In Game Use: Reboot!
« Reply #870 on: October 05, 2013, 08:36:08 PM »
FF4 charge times

These are datamined from the FF2US version 1.1 SNES ROM, I don't know if they're different in other game versions.  I also don't know precisely what the numbers actually mean in practical terms.

(White Magic)
0 - Blink, Protect, Shell, Reflect, Scan, Curaja, Raise, Teleport, Sight
1 - Paralyze, Confuse, Slow, Haste, Berserk, Dispel, Cure, Cura, Curaga, Float
2 - Silence, Esuna, Arise
3 - Holy
4 - Mini

(Black Magic)
0 - Warp, Bio, Flare
1 - Poison, Fire, Blizzard, Thunder
2 - Tornado, Quake, Break, Stop
3 - Toad, Fira, Blizzara, Thundara, Sleep, Drain
4 - Firaga, Blizzaga, Thundaga
5 - Death, Osmose
6 - Pig
10 - Meteor

(Summon)
0 - Goblin, Bomb, Cockatrice, Mage
1 - Sylph, Asura
2 - Odin
3 - Chocobo, Mist Dragon, Leviathan, Bahamut
4 - Shiva, Ramuh, Ifrit
5 - Titan

Just for the sake of discussion.  So yeah, Osmose is slow as balls.

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Rank Characters based on In Game Use: Reboot!
« Reply #871 on: October 06, 2013, 12:25:47 AM »
Quote
I also don't know precisely what the numbers actually mean in practical terms.

You say this, and yet you go on to antihype Osmose? <_< It's just 1 slower than the -ga spells, which I've certainly spammed enough to say with confidence their charge time is insignificant. Those numbers back up my experience that Meteor is noticeable on charge time, and the rest of the spells really aren't. According to Meeple, Int is a factor in charge times, so if you're using a magic-lowering whip or something it'll get worse.

EDIT: To be clear, I'm not trying to say Osmose is wonderful, and I do agree it's one of the worst Osmoses in the series. It's still another bullet point in the argument of why Rydia's MP isn't that big a deal.

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Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Rank Characters based on In Game Use: Reboot!
« Reply #872 on: October 06, 2013, 02:36:20 AM »
Final Fantasy 4 (Advance):
Cecil: 8/10. Dominatingly good fighter early, smash and never die. As time goes on he loses the smash, but still maintains good durability, cover, and auto-cover, and his damage at least avoids falling off a cliff unlike...
Kain: 4.5/10. Can do decent damage when hitting weaknesses, is durable, is kinda fast for however much that's worth (not much). Nosedives at the end but oh well.
Rydia: 8/10. Dominates the damage curve. Even has some decent utility. By around the Sealed Cave or so I feel she pulls past Cecil and never looks back, MVP from there on outside Zeromus.
Tellah: 6/10. Smash midgame bosses in the face. Even before he gets his spells I find him okay, but apparently I'm kinda forgiving of low MP types in this game.
Edward-C: 0.5/10. If you took white magic away from Porom (spoilers: the second worst PC in this game)... she'd still be better than Edward. Edward is iconically one of the worst RPG characters ever.
Rosa: 7/10. Kinda eh until she gets Curaga, then completely invaluable for lategame, MVP for Zeromus certainly. Rough start definitely keeps her out of the overall MVP discussion though.
Yang-C: 4/10. Kain with less damage.
Palom-C: 4/10. Pretty good offence, pretty bad durability. Unfortunately he leaves before black magic gets really good.
Porom-C: 2.5/10. Rosa with less HP, before Rosa gets good. At least she healbatteries.
Cid-C: 4.5/10. Always remember him being more effective than Yang, but in practice the gap probably isn't large.
Edge: 4/10. Not as bad as I used to think, certainly, but still has a rough start and then becomes a non-Cecil fighter at a point in the game where magic starts dominating.
FuSoYa: 6/10. Pretty solid I think? -agas and Reflect are really valuable in the boss fights he's in. MP's somewhat a concern but again not *that* big.

Final Fantasy 4: The After Years:

Ceodore: 7.5/10. HP needs some work, I wouldn't say he's -that- much like his daddy. That said he's still a solid fighter who gets several great white magic spells.
Biggs: Abstain
Wedge: Abstain
Cecil-T: 3/10. Either you use him when he's Adam-tier, or he's badly underlevelled and hence you're using a version of Cecil with bad HP in a game where speed is much more important.
Rosa-T: 7.5/10. White magic is so good in TAY. The game gives you way more reason to use those utility spells and the game throws badass YOu-NEED-GOOD-HEALING bosses at you for like 12 hours instead of like 4. She's a bit worse at non-healing than in FF4o (HP and physicals were both toned down a little, more meaningfully slower) but the shift in expectations helps her.
Cid-T: 1.5/10. Sucks. HP's too good for a 1 though.
Kain-T: 7.5/10. I'd like to buy the argument that Ceodore's better, but Kain's better HP makes that a pretty tough sell. They're probably about equal.

Rydia-T: 8/10. She gained weaknesses in her charge times actually mattering now. But on the other hand her status magic is a lot better, and she has a big level lead due to the way the endgame works, her summons are no longer out of the way to get, and she still brings MT devastatation like none other.
Luka: 4/10. Big Throw ends up with some decent use thanks to moon phases, still a bad choice for the final dungeon though. Fairly valuable in Rydia's chapter though.
Calca: 1.5/10. Better than his sister against randoms, worse against bosses.
Brina: 1.5/10. Both are pretty bad, though they own Harley.
Yang-T: 7/10. As far as fighters go, speed is better than power. Yang's still pretty damn good at what he does.
Ursula: 7.5/10. ALL THE SPEED.

Palom-T: 7/10. Lower level and no summons hurt versus Rydia (and the former erodes most of his on-paper advantage of gaining spells faster), but there's a decent case to use both and using at least one of the twins may mean an endgame spike with dualcast.
Leonora: 3.5/10. The red mage build is interesting, but ultimately not very good, just too weak on level/stats/getting some spells late. Better than the scrubs, though.
Porom-T: 6.5/10. Same situation as Palom vs. Rydia, replace "no summons" with "lower HP". Still good.
Edward-T: 6/10. A white mage trading most of the skillset for a better, if more costly, version of Curaja.
Harley: 0.5/10. Clearly whatever made Edward awful in FF4o is an STD.

Edge-T: 8/10. Ursula trading some speed for boomerangs and a skillset. He's got a pretty rough start in the gathering chapter, I found, but so good thereafter.
Gekkou: 4/10. Nothing really -wrong- with him, but he's not very inspiring. Which makes him the best ninja!
Izayoi: 3/10. Decent healing and instant death are cool, but the lacking damage isn't.
Tsukinowa: 2.5/10. Oh god that HP. Not... awful past that, he has decent speed/offence but still.
Zangetsu: 2/10. FF4o Kain if he were slower, in a game with better competition.
Golbez: 8.5/10. Sure, Golbez isn't in the top five for endgame PCs. Doesn't matter. By FAR the best PC in the gathering and the first section of the endgame stretch, monstrous HP, good damage, everything. He falls off but even at endgame he's still like a 5 or so, at worst. Jeigan points go far with me.
FuSoYa-T: 6/10. Eh whatever same score as FF4o.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2013, 05:00:03 AM by Dark Holy Elf »

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Clear Tranquil

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Re: Rank Characters based on In Game Use: Reboot!
« Reply #873 on: October 06, 2013, 03:38:46 AM »
Not much to say/add here other than that Edward can use/throw knives or something, which I remember being quite useful from FF4 speed run streams. At one stage it was the General and grunt fights, Cecil and Yang got owned and then Edward came out of hide to just in time to end the fight with the knife thing. It did good damage compared to base physicals. I remember comments from the steam like "Edward's the man"  "I told you Edward was the man" and such >_>  I don't think he's the only one who can use knives but it was quite useful at the time. So yeah I can kind of see where CK is coming from on Edward I guess (well he used different reasons but yeah) :)
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Re: Rank Characters based on In Game Use: Reboot!
« Reply #874 on: October 06, 2013, 04:09:27 AM »
Edward can't get access to the Dancing Knife without using a very specific glitch that only exists in the SNES version, so it's not really relevant to this. That also relies on a money glitch so you can afford the weapon- the Dancing Knife is 5000 gil, you don't have that kind of cash that early. (The Glitch can only be done before Mist burns down)
« Last Edit: October 06, 2013, 08:03:58 AM by superaielman »
"Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself"- Count Aral Vorkosigan, A Civil Campaign
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<Meeple> knownig Square-enix, they'll just give us a 2nd Kain
<Ciato> he would be so kawaii as a chibi...