Author Topic: FE10 In-Game Character Rankings  (Read 5513 times)

Rozalia

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Re: FE10 In-Game Character Rankings
« Reply #25 on: February 24, 2010, 12:18:25 AM »
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3-6 and 3-12 are generally regarded as two of the hardest battles in the game. I'm not really sure how Nolan and Leo break 3-6... I assume you are referring to Beastfoe + Crossbow, but that doesn't let them tank, just kill. Volug can do both, while letting someone else have Beastfoe, and surviving is at least as valuable as killing there.

3-6 has an easy choke point to the north and if you stay in the corner all the enemy units are slowed due to terrain. As long as Leo/Nolan kill the tiger* on their turn surviving the cats attacks are childs play.

*From what I saw you get like a tiger to two cats on that map, so tigers should never become a problem.

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3-12
Stupid AI says Hi. Leo can solo that battle if you put him with Tauroneo on the ledges for example.

dude789

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Re: FE10 In-Game Character Rankings
« Reply #26 on: February 24, 2010, 12:59:37 AM »
Just mentioning that an Elincia blitz on 2-E works almost as well if not better than a Haar blitz. She starts with enough speed to double him on Normal mode so Amiti's dealing at least 36 damage to him after WTA and she has 4 chances to pull out Stun. So Elincia+Leanne is pretty much an instant win if you get both of them in range. The only thing you really have to worry about is Vantage triggering on the second turn.

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: FE10 In-Game Character Rankings
« Reply #27 on: February 24, 2010, 01:46:45 AM »
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Leo can solo that battle if you put him with Tauroneo on the ledges for example.

Ignoring concerns involving "what about the valley on the right?", this takes what, 40 turns? If you don't give a damn about anyone else getting exp then you're better off giving Volug a Paragon/Resolve combo and letting him solo the map via running into the thick of things and counterwhoring, that way all the Exp goes to a PC who is actually useful in Endgame AND you get more Bonus Exp.

More seriously, you really can't create arguments based around "slow, degenerate strategy X trivialises this battle" because you can use this to undersell the performance of almost any other character in any battle. Volug has loads of offence and durability in Part 3 so he is good, much like Ike has loads of offence and durability in Part 3 so he is good.

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Meeplelard

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Re: FE10 In-Game Character Rankings
« Reply #28 on: February 24, 2010, 02:55:31 AM »
Regarding Nealuchi, I at least think he should be higher than Sanaki.  He's less of a liability on the Desert, since a stray Wyvern attacking Sanaki often means death for her, unless she gets lucky and Flares them, while Nealuchi is always a half decent evade tank once he's shifted.  This combined with general competence in 2-2 and 2-E (2-P, as you said, is not really worth noting, not that he's bad or anything here.)

He does have some issues of course in part 4; he's got no real time to build up his Beak levels, so his offense is suspect, and he still has to play SOME catch up, but he should be closer to Vika in worth *shrugs*  Vika's better in Part 1 than Nealuchi is Part 2, but this is offset by how Nealuchi can at least do stuff besides Be a massive Liability in Part 4.  I think he should at least be in the Mediocre tier somewhere.
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Rozalia

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Re: FE10 In-Game Character Rankings
« Reply #29 on: February 24, 2010, 03:48:40 AM »
Seems I presented some useless points... Let me gather my thoughts.

Volug never grows in part one and you never want to use him due to this. Calling him the best DB member when he has such a flaw is simply wrong to me. In part three he comes underleveled and for me Aran, Nolan and edward were all better. You say he can own 3-6, well so can Nolan so that isn't special.

Then again I've not done this Volug ownage you're all speaking about. I looked at some stat sheets and argued based on his useless part 1 peformance and my general hate for Laguz fighters.
At best I could only ever see Volug on that second level in that list.

Meeplelard

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Re: FE10 In-Game Character Rankings
« Reply #30 on: February 24, 2010, 04:16:44 AM »
Volug is still stronger than the other units.  There's a difference between "Never use" and "Not Abuse."  You don't want to rely TOO much on Volug cause of his "doesn't gain EXP" factor, but you don't want to ignore him entirely.  He's really helpful for saving, say, all those Knights in Fiona's Chapter cause of his high move and competence by himself.  He's also good at rescuing.  ANd as Elfboy said, using him nets him Strike EXP, which is plenty helpful for raising his damage later on; remember that every Laguz weapon level up is +5 to their Might, which is like forging their weapon.

Volug beats Nolan in 3-6 for the following reasons:
-Volug kills things as reliably as Nolan does, he does not require a UNIQUE skill, one which many of the cast can make use of.
-Volug is better defensively; Shifted Volug has good defense, high HP, and absurd evade.  The canine just doesn't get hit.
-Volug also requires less money to maintain.  Frankly, I wouldn't want to waste money on Crossbows cause their uses are so limited.  The worthwhile crossbows are free, and even then, I found people like Shinon and Rolf hard-pressed to use them.  Contrast to Olivi Grass which cost only like 1500 for a stock of 8, and make the difference between "Laguz kicks ass" and "Laguz use is skeptical at best."

I dunno; I could see an argument for saying someone like Sothe rips apart Part 3.  He gets the unique Beast Killer, has enough speed to double tigers, and possibly Cats, is evasive enough to play defensively, and Beast Killer even gives a good crit boost so he can avoid counters if he's lucky.   Not to mention he still has that nice Micaiah A Support out of the gate.  Really, anyone using a competent weapon w/ Beast Foe does significant damage to that map.  Edward using Caladbolg, Jill using her Brave Axe, Zihark using the Brave Sword you got from before (I think there are OTHER good swords available too I wanna say), I believe Tauroneo hands you a free Silver Lance in practice, which Aran may be able to make use of...

And of that list, Zihark, Jill, and Aran are all better defensively than Leonardo at very least, possibly Nolan too.  Zihark has evasion on his side, Jill and Aran have raw defenses; Nolan can use Tarvos granted...oh wait, that means he's not using a Crossbow!

Unlike FE9, the Good Laguz are actual contenders in this game; Volug is exactly that.  He's not, say, Lyre, who even shifted, is a weakling and a liability, or Vika in the 2nd half of the game.  Volug's a Jeigan in part 1 (even has the "Starts tapering off near the end" thing to add to the comparison.)  Think of the ability to remove Wild Heart as "Volug promotes!" and he never stops being good.  Well, ok, in my game, he did, but that's cause he fell behind on levels, and gasp shock, awe, an FE character underperforming when they fall behind on levels, WHO KNEW!?  Had I properly maintained him (which isn't even that hard, I just more focused on trying to raise more PCs, even when it was counter productive, so yeah, willing to acknowledge that as my own fault, not his), I could see him ending up decent.

Really, Volug is like a Raven, except trades in flight for a less costly weakness (Fire is less important than Wind and Bows, especially since the latter means he avoids the costly Crossbow weakness).  A losing trade, but then, the other Ravens have other issues that Volug doesn't ever have to worry about (mostly related to availability.)   Combine this with how he's in a weak team and helps strong arm on some of the harder maps, there really is no question about his worth.

I still don't see how you can say he's "useless" in part 1.  Cause he STEALS EXP!?  Ok, yes, that's a nuisance, so just don't abuse the crap out of him.  Its called moderate your usage; he's a trump card when you need it, someone you can rely on to hold off one area of the map on his own so that you can focus more units in a different area, what have you.

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Tide

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Re: FE10 In-Game Character Rankings
« Reply #31 on: February 24, 2010, 06:33:16 AM »
@ NEB

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I guess this comes down to "Lucia's performance in 2-2" vs. "Edward's performance in early maps". Ed isn't ever as good as Lucia is in that one map, but he does have a few more maps of semi-competence... I dunno. Ed never feels even above average in any map except 1-P because you get better frontliners (Nolan in 1-1, Sothe in 1-2, Aran in 1-3, etc.) and DB maps feel built to park a frontliner or two in a chokepoint and have everyone else lob things from range 2. Ed's range 2 is pretty weak and you only have so many Wind Edges. I'm not really inclined to give much credit for "below average but hey he isn't taking a spot at least" but this might be a personal quirk, I dunno. If you do give Ed credit for being better than an empty slot in 1-1 through 1-6 (though... only barely in 1-4, that map really emphasises a small number of units) then he could go up a bit.

In fairness, that one map where Lucia is being really awesome, so is Mordecai once he transforms and Nephenee/Nealuchi/Brom are all there as well and servicable. I don't think that better frontliners detract away Edward's worth of actually doing something beneficial for the first few opening chapters because without him being there (empty slot in this case), you don't get that advantage of having him pick off weakened units and have to burn more turns for other characters to do it. His worth as an actual tank (loltankEdward) decreases certainly, but his offensive edge still exists, which is nice for clearing out the chapter and letting other frontliners carry on. Likewise, the fact that Mordecai is really awesome in 2-2 when he transforms and the fact that Brom/Nephenee/Nealuchi being usable doesn't detract away from Lucia her awesomeness in 2-2. Also for whatever it's worth, the moment you get to access the base in 1-4, you should start moving skills around like Cancel off Leo (lolCancelArcher) and give it to someone like Ed. He could also have a C support built up with Leo and possibly Nolan too, which will add a little bit to how well he performs. Not huge advantages, but they certainly exist.

Also agree on maybe its the scoring we're not certain on. I think the concensus is "Edward is decent to pretty good for the first few chapters when you have limited units and the extra manpower is generally a good thing but he starts being a pointless waste of time once Zihark comes in because Edward isn't significantly outperforming Zihark and Zihark consumes much less resources"


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Hmm, another approach. Suppose someone liked Renning? They think he's cool and want to use him. How much will they suffer for this, if Renning is indeed bad? (and he's pretty low down the list, so he's kinda bad)

My kneejerk is less than someone who really wants to use Boyd will suffer for that. Boyd is further below average than Renning is for each of their first 5 chapters (hi I have the worst Spd of any non-healer GM, the worst Str of any axe-user, and shoddy defences) and in order for Boyd to ever get better you have to either get lucky or spend resources (kill Exp mainly) on him, and even then the end product isn't really any better than Renning I think (Boyd will have a support built up at endgame, and a Strength lead, but Renning has a horse, a Wyrmslayer, higher chance of snagging an SS weapon, and much better Res). Which leads me to think Renning > Boyd. Granted, Renning could still drop a bit because he is currently above two PCs with one good map and one PC with a few okay maps. Consider this a vote for moving him between Edward and Sanaki.

Huh, that's an interesting way of thinking about it. If someone insisted on using Renning (for the lolz with Oliver support I hope!)...well, a really big thing that stands out to me (and I'm sorry if this looks like a repeat point) is that you're denying yourself of a better PC built up at that point for 3 other chapters. Which is not necessarily true with Boyd (I think). I'm not referring to Boyd at end game - I'm referring to his stint in 3-P, 3-1 and 3-2 as well (maybe normal mode changed 3-2, but you're allowed to deploy everyone you have at that point). The difference between them is that deploying Boyd doesn't cost you utilizing a better PC for those 3 Chapters and if he's not gaining the stats that he needs (like speed), then I can drop him. I can't say the same thing about actively using Renning. Since I can't go back to the beginning of 4E and unselect him for a different unit. Boyd can also come a bit closer to the Wyrmslayer via crossbows with Dragonfoe - not as good, but it's certainly an option that exists, so he's not totally outclassed in 4E-3, and he has the same benefits with the Hammer as well during 4E-1. Suppose one does actively go out to use Boyd, I'm thinking that his best supports are either Mist for sheer speed or Oscar to get more evade. Both of these options have some form of benefit at the very least (4000 gold with Mist if you keep them at A + helps Mist's strength letting whatever that is worth or giving Oscar more attack, which he wants and doesn't use Mia who probably want to support with Ike) which adds to how useful he ends up overall by providing a bit more support during those earlier maps when Renning doesn't even exist. I think we're in the agreement that neither is that impressive, although I certainly lean towards the other direction (Boyd > Renning) if not by much. Or at the very least, the chances of utilizing Boyd and getting some use out of him is higher than utilizing Renning since he's not sufficient far behind Renning in 4E-1 and 4E-3, and his chances of doing something useful earlier at the very least exists.

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Honestly I think Titania is in full on hax mode during this period, though I suspect this is a difficulty mode difference. Titania is probably your only tier 3 PC at this point (Haar might be too and is at least close behind but Haar is where he is for a reason). Gold Knight Titania has offence that is nothing short of disgusting (lol 25 spd 44 atk) and defence which while not as wall-like as Gatrie or Haar's is still evil because it has no weaknesses at all (no, Horseslayers don't count; I'm referring to her respectable Res/Luck mainly here). Other GMs generally don't promote until late in Part 3 short of favouritism or a Master Crown (and the only one before 3-11 is highly contested).

But otherwise I generally agree, as others promote she definitely starts to fall off (offence keeps up fairly well though) but is never bad. Basically she is a character with a lot of availability who ranges from "pretty good" to "wow" which is actually a pretty good summary of Ike and Haar as well, and while I think those two are better (Ike's bases are just too good, Haar's good stats + flight in a team that badly needs it) the fact that there is a comparison says something. I am not opposed to twiddling her with one or more of the Part 4 badasses as I've said, just speaking up for her in general.

I suspect mode difference is in there as well since I recall basically shuffling the entire GM roster around and managing to get several people (I think like 3? 4?) to be promoted into tier 3 at this time. That seems unlikely although there was tons of BEXP abusing (not sure if you are factoring that in). I think the only few things that may be holding her back are the terrain conditions in some of those maps. Although I'll have to examine it a bit closer. I think Nailah probably does beat her out (Nailah existing in 1E basically makes it a whole lot easier to start) since even as others start promoting, they don't compete with her on actual performance, much less in some of the DB chapters where she is basically just going lolguize. Fire weakness is pretty irrelevant too since those DB maps early on have atrocious hit rates and the later ones are compensated somewhat by her suddenly gaining a +15 Eva due to Ike. Whether or not Tibarn beats her...well, I'll wait until we agree to drop her by one unit before making other shifts.

@ Rozalia

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3-6 has an easy choke point to the north and if you stay in the corner all the enemy units are slowed due to terrain. As long as Leo/Nolan kill the tiger* on their turn surviving the cats attacks are childs play.

*From what I saw you get like a tiger to two cats on that map, so tigers should never become a problem.

I'm sure blocking that choke is an option. Using Leo to block that choke...uh...not as good of an idea. While the +5 speed from Luggy bow probably lets him avoid getting doubled, he's basically doing zilch during counter attack phases other than sitting there and eating damage. I guess this is a good thing if you think putting a healer behind him and burning staff charges is good, but this seems highly inefficient. Meanwhile, Volug/Sothe and whoever your Beastfoe'd unit (I suggest Aran due to him being able to take hits, but likely not doubling) is running around and killing things if people attack them. You're a lot more vulnerable to attacks if you're not holding chokes but if you use a unit who is durable like Volug or Aran, they're clearing it THAT much faster and it feels to me, that's a lot better than whatever the heck Leo is doing. The longer you take on that map, its probably more likely that you do end up getting overwhelmed. 3-6 of course does have an Escape option once BK appears, and he's doesn't appear until like 20 enemies are dead and really if you want to bring resources into play, then he's even worse since Volug gets at least Strike EXP which gives him a meaty +5 Might to his Fangs. Oh and thanks to the fact that Volug non half shifted is still doubling ever, that's basically +10 damage. Meanwhile, the BK is taking kills to speed up a chapter half done and getting...literally nothing and not being a permanent PC. Something tells me Volug wins this.

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Volug never grows in part one and you never want to use him due to this. Calling him the best DB member when he has such a flaw is simply wrong to me. In part three he comes underleveled and for me Aran, Nolan and edward were all better. You say he can own 3-6, well so can Nolan so that isn't special.

Then again I've not done this Volug ownage you're all speaking about. I looked at some stat sheets and argued based on his useless part 1 peformance and my general hate for Laguz fighters.

Sure he grows. People tend to forget this, but for every attack Volug is making, he's getting more strike EXP. And when his strike levels up, he's gaining +5 Might. That's pretty significant. He can get another +5 might if he gets to SS to boot, which is probably better than dumping all that EXP on someone like Edward which requires rolling the RNG for numbers and hoping he gets defense so he can actually take axe hits to the face. As for never wanting to use him? Well outside of Aran and Meg once she starts picking up, every single other person in the DB is frail. Even Nolan early on isn't that tanky. Yeah he has HP, but so does Volug AND he has more starting defense once transformed or even half shifted. The fact that Volug actually performs on the SAME LEVEL if not BETTER than Aran (doubling versus not), Nolan (generally more durable for a while, can double things Nolan has trouble with like Cats), Edward (destroys him in durability) at his base level says pretty much everything. He requires significantly less resources than Nolan to help out in 3-6. And if Nolan is already Awesome tier, then Volug is probably Top tier material. Volug can be an effective wall/choke blocking since he's actual likely to survive and he can lure things out safely so weaker units like Edward if you are using him, can actually get kills without significantly putting themselves at risk.
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Luther Lansfeld

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Re: FE10 In-Game Character Rankings
« Reply #32 on: February 24, 2010, 04:17:16 PM »
Another thing is the fact that he DOES have really awesome stat growths even if you only level him once or twice, and a few stat points are huge for a Laguz since they double. In Part 3 his stats increase about 25% across the board in exchange for a couple of turns, which is the price I am willing to pay for a monstrous tanking unit. Him + Nolan support is a tanking machine.

Of course he starts out underleveled in Part 3 if you refuse to use him... and he's fine anyway because of the increased stats.

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which is probably better than dumping all that EXP on someone like Edward which requires rolling the RNG for numbers and hoping he gets defense so he can actually take axe hits to the face.

Rolling the RNG for a character who is still likely worse than Volug. >_>
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Rozalia

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Re: FE10 In-Game Character Rankings
« Reply #33 on: February 25, 2010, 07:45:28 PM »
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I'm sure blocking that choke is an option. Using Leo to block that choke...uh...not as good of an idea. While the +5 speed from Luggy bow probably lets him avoid getting doubled, he's basically doing zilch during counter attack phases other than sitting there and eating damage.
Unless I'm wrong that area has some water tiles that slow down enemy units (and yourself) greatly. If you kill the tigers with Leo you shouldn't have problems. In fact with the cat build up that'll happen you won't ever be in trouble as long as you have a healer behind him. A crossbow is also an option with beastfoe, I don't think its enough to waste the tigers but the cats go down easy enough.

Anyway this isn't important. I brought it up because someone said Leo can't solo the map while Volug can, but as Dark Holy Elf put it this takes quite a lot of effort and takes ages.

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Of course he starts out underleveled in Part 3 if you refuse to use him... and he's fine anyway because of the increased stats.
I'm guessing you mean his strike level. Getting him to level up a couple of times before part 3 is akin to shooting yourself in the foot.

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Rolling the RNG for a character who is still likely worse than Volug. >_>
I guess I must have got lucky because Edward was fine to me. His biggest advantage to me was the sword he gets in part 3 which lasts a long while. You could forge a blade and give it to another swordsman but that costs extreamly limited money, plus it won't have the special effect on the sword. Once you get the ultimate sword this advantage goes but its nice while it lasts.

Yakumo

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Re: FE10 In-Game Character Rankings
« Reply #34 on: February 25, 2010, 08:30:21 PM »
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I'm sure blocking that choke is an option. Using Leo to block that choke...uh...not as good of an idea. While the +5 speed from Luggy bow probably lets him avoid getting doubled, he's basically doing zilch during counter attack phases other than sitting there and eating damage.
Unless I'm wrong that area has some water tiles that slow down enemy units (and yourself) greatly. If you kill the tigers with Leo you shouldn't have problems. In fact with the cat build up that'll happen you won't ever be in trouble as long as you have a healer behind him. A crossbow is also an option with beastfoe, I don't think its enough to waste the tigers but the cats go down easy enough.

Anyway this isn't important. I brought it up because someone said Leo can't solo the map while Volug can, but as Dark Holy Elf put it this takes quite a lot of effort and takes ages.
I know this is being nitpicky but it's not soloing the map with someone if you have a healer sitting behind them keeping them standing.  Volug can just charge in by himself, just take a healing item in case the RNG hates you.

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Of course he starts out underleveled in Part 3 if you refuse to use him... and he's fine anyway because of the increased stats.
I'm guessing you mean his strike level. Getting him to level up a couple of times before part 3 is akin to shooting yourself in the foot.
I think he's actually referring to increased stats due to removing the halfshift effect.  If I remember right having that on means his stats don't double in shifted form like a normal Laguz, he only gets 50% from the shift.

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Rolling the RNG for a character who is still likely worse than Volug. >_>
I guess I must have got lucky because Edward was fine to me. His biggest advantage to me was the sword he gets in part 3 which lasts a long while. You could forge a blade and give it to another swordsman but that costs extreamly limited money, plus it won't have the special effect on the sword. Once you get the ultimate sword this advantage goes but its nice while it lasts.
Eh, I don't feel like money's that limited, I always seemed to have enough to forge a weapon or two when I wanted one as long as I didn't try and make every weapon ridiculously good.  Also, Edward doesn't have very good defensive stat growth rates and if he doesn't pick up a few levels of defense/HP early on he becomes a liability.  Maybe that didn't happen to you but more often than not Edward ends up just too frail to stick on the front lines by the end of the DB section, let alone endgame.

Tide

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Re: FE10 In-Game Character Rankings
« Reply #35 on: February 25, 2010, 10:24:19 PM »
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Unless I'm wrong that area has some water tiles that slow down enemy units (and yourself) greatly. If you kill the tigers with Leo you shouldn't have problems. In fact with the cat build up that'll happen you won't ever be in trouble as long as you have a healer behind him. A crossbow is also an option with beastfoe, I don't think its enough to waste the tigers but the cats go down easy enough.

Anyway this isn't important. I brought it up because someone said Leo can't solo the map while Volug can, but as Dark Holy Elf put it this takes quite a lot of effort and takes ages.

Even disregarding durability, Leo has bigger trouble soloing maps because if he is caught and attacked from all four directions, he can't move and utilize his better 2 range attacks. He's stuck using costly crossbows, which don't hit as hard and he has to kill one of on the enemy phase to regain the ability to move outside of giving him pass.

As for the choke itself, the point isn't so much "Leo can do it" but more so, Volug or Zihark or Jill does it better. Leo can't counter at 1 range except with a cross bow + beastfoe. The problem with this, he doesn't have enough raw durability to take that many attacks (hence NEB's point about him being good offensively, but not defesively). Worst yet, Nolan can do it, and he's far far better at end game then Leo. If you're going to block the choke, using Volug (better pretty much everything), Jill (better raw defense/evade combo), Zihark (strictly better evade) are all better option since they can afford to kill something on the enemy turn, let another enemy come in, possibly kill it and reach the level's kill limit faster. If you equip Leo with the Luggy bow, he can't do anything on counter phase and only attacks one at a time. If you give him Beast/Crossbow, he's more likely to die than those above three because his durability is worse. There's no reason to stick him there and there are better people who perform that job better. Which is why despite "Leo soloing 3-6" (and hey look, he needs a healer behind him or get swarmed 4 ways and die horribly or something), he's still not good as Volug. Oh and the choke in 3-6 on the north requries 2 characters. So soloing via blocking the choke probably isn't going to be possibly outside of order the ally units to take place and stand there.

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I'm guessing you mean his strike level. Getting him to level up a couple of times before part 3 is akin to shooting yourself in the foot.

Maybe, maybe not. The thing with Volug is, he can attack hardier enemies and be used to set up kills and not you know...get himself horribly in range of dying like Edward. And every enemy Volug actually doesn't *end up* killing off? It's a much larger advantage for him because he still gets Strike levels even the enemy doesn't die (I'm not sure if the wexp kill bonus is given, but that's not the point). Now he's saving precious experience points (resources), but still able to get his own benefit without wasting others (oh noes, you lose like 10 EXP for needing somebody else to hit them!). And really, Volug is just so good anyway, it may be more worthwhile to make him become a really good unit instead of spreading your resources around and making everyone equally crappy. Trying to flatten out levels isn't all that good of an idea, especially in FE10 where you have many units available. And if I know I want to use Volug anyway (because he pretty much goes lolpart3), how is it shooting myself in the foot? I have a few other characters sure, but you're vastly overestimating the amount of EXP he ends up sucking up. Using a small core team of 6 (Jill/Nolan/Zihark/Volug/Sothe/Micaiah) sounds reasonable enough to me. Maybe Aran. Maybe Ed/Leo if they get lucky, but on average, they won't.

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I guess I must have got lucky because Edward was fine to me. His biggest advantage to me was the sword he gets in part 3 which lasts a long while. You could forge a blade and give it to another swordsman but that costs extreamly limited money, plus it won't have the special effect on the sword. Once you get the ultimate sword this advantage goes but its nice while it lasts.

Eh, the DB is the team that ends up with quite a bit of funds (which is expected so you can forge things to make up for manpower/lack of uber units). Not only that, but you could always consider selling off things that aren't that useful. Like Sothe's Kard might as well be sold off after you can give him a Steel Dagger or something. That's an extra 800g or something, which helps for forging. Giving Ed a crit forge isn't out of question. The real question is, would you want to? For the same amount of resources, you might as well give it to Zihark since he starts off better and nowhere down the line does Edward significantly outperform Edward. Nevermind the limited money, Ed has to compete directly with Zihark for weapons, which basically means he's probably getting leftovers. Of course, this is outside of Calabolg.

Speaking of which, Calabolg isn't all that good compared to other character's goods. Nolan gets +4 Def, Leo gets +5 speed. Both of these are far more awesome than not. Jill gets a Brave Axe, which might as well function as +4 speed since it means she can always attack at least twice. Sothe still gets his awesome Beast Killer for 3-6, etc. Heck the Caladbolg might not even be that much better than the Brave Sword once crit rates/chances of Adept or Cancel off are factored in. And more likely than not, this ends up going to Zihark. Now you look at it, +8 Luck is really not all that special. It doesn't improve Ed's evade noticably and IIRC, crit rates on him remained pretty low even without. At best, its a nice fringe benefit, not something I would really force myself to use Edward over. So I guess he wins Zihark in funds for 40 uses or something since the Calabolg doesn't require you to forge it.
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Meeplelard

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Re: FE10 In-Game Character Rankings
« Reply #36 on: February 25, 2010, 11:04:10 PM »
Just to confirm that yeah, the reason you take off Wild Heart is cause Half Shift is only 1.5x stats vs. Human form, contrast to normal Shift which is 2x; its why Volug gets significantly better in Part 3.  He can take off Wild Heart, and finally get full Transformation Benefits, and Olivi Grass (which you should always get your hands on some; I think Vika comes with some, so giving hers to Volug is ideal before Part 1 ends) lets him (and any Laguz really), maintain the shifted form for quite a while, so long as you use it at right intervals rather than attacking.

The thing Volug does is able to hold his own without help beyond some items (which he can hold on his own; what's he need those inventory slots for anyway?), and generally is damn hard to kill, and he's not failing on offense either.  And all his worthwhile requirements are...things that don't really hurt other PCs.
No one else in the team is a Laguz, so Olivi Grass benefits him and him alone.  Items can be bought in bulk generally, so giving him a few won't hurt.  He requires no weapons, so stuff like "Should I give that Brave Sword to Zihark, Meg or Edward?" never kicks in.  He's not relying on stuff like Beastfoe, cause he doesn't need it, doesn't need a healer...

Honestly, he's a lot more self maintaining than any other PC here.  You COULD argue someone like Jill may be overall better on this map due to her being mobile, especially on this map, and having the durability to rush in for a bit, take a beating, heal up, etc...even ignoring my Jill Fanboyism, that's a bit more reasonable of an argument, since Jill is doing stuff no one else can do, and is being generally effective without the aid of others, nor is she relying on gimping OTHER PCs (only thing she may be using is the Brave Axe which only Nolan can use otherwise, and Nolan's better off sticking with Tarvos due to the defense boost on this map generally, since Nolan's taking a more defensive stance, so Brave Axe is better suited for Jill here overall.)

I just don't see Leonardo hype.  Give Zihark that Beast Foe, for example, and hand him one of those good early swords like I believe there's an early Brave Sword or Silver Sword or hell, just a forged Steel Sword, and he'll be doing shit just as good as Leonardo or Nolan, and since he's primarily relying on Counters and I do not believe Vantage is available at this point for the Dawn Brigade (from what I recall, the scrolls are Innate on Mia, Innate on Naesala, and a drop by Ludveck), 1 hit vs. 2 Hits really doesn't matter beyond weapon conservation.

Lets look at all PCs in the Dawn Brigade and see their strengths, weaknesses, etc. for Chap 3-6, and evaluate just why Leonardo doesn't stand out much:

Micaiah: Healer, can attack from range thus avoid counters, but generally, she's acting as a healer here, which is useful since she's one of two, and generally the more durable of the two.

Sothe: Still has a level lead from before, the Micaiah A Support probably still around, and best yet, Beast Killers.  They're probably still close to his strongest weapon, with the +20% Crit Rate, meaning he doesn't even need Beast Foe.  Best yet, you can buy one in this chapter immediately, so any arguments about having them left over from Previous Chapters sort of dies (and saving them for later chapters...when they'/re important again, a 3rd one pops up IIRC, and after that, they're pretty much entirely replacable by Stilletto's which are roughly the same thing.)

Edward: Caladbolg w/ Beast Foe should let him kill things, and if he's promoted, he's got a steady Crit Rate or something! And some passable evasion...yeah, he's not really that good unless he's RNG Blessed and leveled up to speed, both factors I'm not willing to assume.

Leonardo: He's on trial, so not gonna discuss him.  Basically, in short, its "Beast Foe + Crossbow = Yay!" but I'm trying to prove why that's not too special.

Nolan: Unlike Leonardo, he does NOT require Beast Foe to be reliable; he's likely got less level problems for a number of reasons, Tarvos gives him that durability push, and he's fast enough to avoid being doubled in general, possibly doubling Tigers too.

Laura: Your other Healer; that's literally all she's useful for as at least Micaiah had offense, though having a 2nd one that isn't taking up any one else's slot is welcome.  This allows for far more flexibility, as it means Micaiah being forced to take offense for one turn if you need that enemy dead won't be QUITE as risky.

Aran: He's a steady tank, and honestly, that alone makes him useful here.  If his Lance levels are high enough (which I wouldn't say is a given), he can wiled Tauroneo's Silver Lance for that strong weapon with Beast Foe combo, again proving that Leonardo is unspecial in that regard..

Meg: Aran variant; a bit worse since Javelins > Wind Edges for ranged, uncounterable options, Lances > Swords for power, and Aran has more move, but she can still be useful as another tank in the front lines, assuming she's leveled of course (which should be assumed for any character, barring a select few like Sothe and Zihark who have no excuse for being underleveled here <_<)  Oh, Meg does lack that Silver Lance thing Aran has, but I believe a few decent swords are picked up in Part 1 like a Brave Sword or something.

Volug: we've covered this countless times, not repeating it.

Jill:  More or less covered already, don't need to do it again.

Zihark: Fast enough that he MAY double Cats, and RNG proof at this point, combined with insured to have at least some decent level stock.  He's pretty much a better Edward, as the level edge > Caladbolg (and he can use Brave Sword to offset the offensive disadvantage if you so want to play that card.)

Fiona: ...ok, she's got issues; Mounted unit in this water level is bad, and she's still probably trying to work away her underleveledness, her only real use is emergency rescues due to Savior.

I believe that more or less covers everyone.  Honestly, most people seem to bring more to the table than Leonardo.  Over half the cast has some strong weapon to take advantage of Beast Foe with, while people like Meg and Aran are formidable tanks that would lower the strain on your healers.
I dunno, Leonardo having a SPECIFIC SET UP that lets him have massive offense but does nothing to save his defenses makes him feel utterly un-special here.  At best, it lets him attack and kill without working about counters, and really, that's not that major of an advantage cause Fog of War and the Water based aspect of this level makes it hard to really go on the offensive, you're better off luring enemies in and beating them defensively.
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Dark Holy Elf

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Re: FE10 In-Game Character Rankings
« Reply #37 on: February 26, 2010, 05:02:51 PM »
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Getting him to level up a couple of times before part 3 is akin to shooting yourself in the foot.

While this response I am about to make is largely a tangent since (a) Volug at base level is badass so it doesn't matter if you don't level him, and (b) other people noted Fullshift already, I just have to point out:

It takes less effective Exp to get Volug 2 levels than it takes to make Nolan (let alone Ed or Leo) to promote, and you have no trouble assuming that. <_< I think his share of Bonus Exp (i.e. 1/10 of what you get or whatever) is enough, in fact, even before the small amount he gets from combat. Now yes, you can have Volug give up his share of Bonus Exp to help out underlevelled units, but the fact that you can do this and Volug will still have the stats he does come Part 3 says something about how good Volug is.

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Just Another Day

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Re: FE10 In-Game Character Rankings
« Reply #38 on: April 20, 2010, 07:53:15 PM »
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Really, I think it comes down to is that FE10 is a little more balanced overall, where as FE9, a lot of the really good characters just happen to use Lances.

I was gonna reply in detail, but then I decided I wanted to get on with my day :) I think we basically agree overall; there isn't a strong bias towards lances in FE10, and there really really is in FE9.

The only characters from 10 who really stand out for their lance use are Nephenee and Marcia; Jill and Haar are both axe users, the other pegs are disappointing. Gatrie still has his goddawful mobility, but I guess he's alright. Geoffrey and Oscar both have cases, I suppose, but Geoffrey just doesn't have the availability (nor are his stats so amazing that you should overlook this), and Oscar... Well, okay, I'll give you Oscar is fine, but he's in competition with people like Titania and Haar who just plain wipe the floor with him. Good for supports, though, so there's that.

Haar kills everything, but he does it with an axe. But sure, take Haar, too.

Fiona is the game's Nino and I think she merits some mention for that reason, even if she's pragmatically unplayable.

Devdan I really don't see the case for, statistically or availability-wise. Tauroneo shines a bit early in the game, but that really doesn't have much to do with anything, and he fails hard later on.

FE9, meanwhile, you've got Oscar, Titania, Jill and Marcia in the running for the game's best units, Neph up there for foot units, and Tanith being weird and cool. Gatrie shines early in the game, too, I suppose, and I'm a strong proponent of the Brom is better than Gatrie school of Fire Emblem character interpretation.

Meeplelard

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Re: FE10 In-Game Character Rankings
« Reply #39 on: April 20, 2010, 08:26:46 PM »
well, reason Lances are so good in FE9 mostly comes down to two factors:

-Axe users are limited.  There's Boyd, Titania, Kieran, promoted Jill, potential promoted Astrid (suggested), Oscar (debatable), Makalov (I really don't know with him), Haar and Largo.  Haar and Largo are both late comers, so they're just not around enough.

Axes I'd say are equal to Lances as a weapon, cause really, 1 Might vs. 5 Hit is the difference; they have equivalent options otherwise (well, no SLIM AXE!!!), just there's a lot more Lance users than Axes.

-Swords suck.  They're -2 vs. Lances, and have no ranged option, outside of Magic Swords which only a handful of characters can use to any degree of worth.  This is one of the reasons Swordmasters are really kind of iffy in this game.

So that in mind, we have a limited number of one melee weapon class, and the other weapon class is unimpressive, the 3rd is just going to stand out that much more.

Also, a bunch of the Axe users use lances anyway.  Haar is good at both (starts with an Axe, but believe he's got plenty of Lance levels so there's nothing stopping you from making the switch on him), Jill can't use Axes until about halfway into the game, ditto Oscar, who may also not want Axes anyway (I'd think the more reliable Range option and ability to hit weakness at range on stuff like Wyverns would come in handy more often than extra Weapon Triangle, but that might just be me.  I can see an argument at least.) I think Titania starts with like a C in Lances, so she can at least use them fine for all that she's clearly Axe primary, and she has plenty of time to build up Lances too.

FE10, balance tweaks were made.  Noteworthy is basically Swords getting a little stronger, and now having a ranged option, if an iffy one.  The Sword users improving as well also made a notable difference (Ike and Elincia are improved, the Swordmasters are pretty much better across the board, etc.)
[21:39] <+Mega_Mettaur> so Snow...
[21:39] <+Mega_Mettaur> Sonic Chaos
[21:39] <+Hello-NewAgeHipsterDojimaDee> That's -brilliant-.

[17:02] <+Tengu_Man> Raven is a better comic relief PC than A