A memes to an end(Meme Mafia: Game Over)

[Margaret Houlihan]

Since I won't get a chance to use this otherwise, I might as well use this when I have nothing better.

Soviet's done a lot wrong, but he's also done some right lately. You said yourself that his latest post is okay. Now look at Combo, and find his good post.

---and i've just been cut off. Back soon, hopefully.

[COMBO BREAKER]

Well. A fine mess I've g-g-g-gotten myself into. I'm honestly embarassed by the post I left before I left yesterday. I got dragged away and instead of scrapping it I insisted on posting it, to the detriment of my character and town's time. It was one of those hand-to-forehead moments that just made me crawl into bed and try to refresh myself. I won't make excuses for it, but I will say two things in my defense.

Most of the heat that came down because of it is valid, but my case on him was a lurker case and I made the mistake of putting a pressure vote on someone I thought was less scummy than my #1 suspect without declaring it. I stand by the reasoning, at least at the time. The switch came from giving the new X-Box poster the benefit of the doubt being a substitute up until that point. The Milhouse lurking point he first brings up reads like something someone whose only really followed Day 2 would bring up. I wouldn't call Milhouse a lurker in Day 1 really. There was the case on Soviet, which I didn't have a problem with. The only thing that really struck me as iffy at that point was the case on 2G1C and the whole "you claimed roleblockedness" thing. But I mentioned this, and people claimed that I didn't seem to find enough wrong with X-Box even though I said he was still a suspect to me.

I felt kind of trapped in between someone I thought was scummy yesterday and still think scummy today (Soviet), and someone who I brought a case on today. Whether I switched to Soviet or stuck to X-Box, I think Dog's convinced I'm scum and I would have called me on it either way. So I had a choice to switch back to the person I thought worse or go with the new hotness. Despite how it made me look, I chose the former. It was unfortunate how it played out and if I did it again I'dve waited until I'd gotten back to lay it out, but there's no changing it now.

Second is more minor, but it's about the whole serious post in-between the jokevote and first real vote thing. Maybe in conjuction with everything else it seems to stack up, but honestly? It's not all that great reasoning, especially when confirmed townie Dawg did the same thing. (I'm aware that this also counters the argument I made against X-Box about chaining the joke-vote into a serious vote, but Dawg was more active and at least put together his own argument on the whole thing).

So Soviet... the dichotimous behavior I think is honestly a detriment to town. Yesterday there wasn't much to defend about him. Today, there is just as little, I think. Unlike the good representative from Shiki's pants, I don't see whats so good about Soviet's last post. It's basically doing what people accuse me of: reiterating other's points. 2G1C? Check. X-Box? Check. Me? Check. Responding to Zerg Rush about points made against him is the only original content there, and he presses Astley for... little to no reasoning. I don't see how anyone considers this better input than yesterday. This may be a lot of what I'm guilty of too, but I'm fine with being a hypocrite and calling him out on it. I'd rather be a hypocrite than let someone whose so obvious scum behavior goes unpursued for so long. Yes, I know he's a suspect and I have only myself to blame for letting him get away with it.

Other than Soviet and X-Box, if I should be eliminated, I would look at those who have jumped onto me without putting that much into it. Bel Air especially- All Your Base, Zerg and Touhou too.

I'm not going to be a self-defeatist about this, but if my lynch would help benefit town tomorrow to narrow in on worse targets, then I'm fine with that. Otherwise, I'm sticking to Soviet and thats all there is to it.

[Princess Leia]

I'm not going to be a self-defeatist about this, if my lynch would help benefit town tomorrow to narrow in on worse targets, then I'm fine with that. Otherwise, I'm sticking to Soviet and thats all there is to it.

This does not seem a healthy attitude, much as such resignation leaves my own neck in less danger.

I'm fine with being a hypocrite and calling him out on it. I'd rather be a hypocrite than let someone whose so obvious scum behavior goes unpursued for so long.

The problem with hypocrisy is that going after someone whose posting similarly to yourself only makes sense for scum. I of all people know town can make stupid mistakes, but if you're claiming to be a townie who's make a poor post you shouldn't have, what makes you believe that Soviet isn't the same? What reason do the rest of us have to vote him over you?

[Princess Leia]

Taking time to reflect - something I should have done before the post, but you'll always think of more just after you submit. I don't like the demotivator's voteshifting (and there's a hypocrisy angle there given that such seems to be his biggest beef with C-C-C-C), nor the very noncommittal promise of more later, but I particularly don't like this phrasing:

L-2, and that pushes him two ahead of Soviet as well. Hopefully that'll do for today.

Sounds to me like he's hoping vote numbers will make the difference, not any argument. He gives very little reasoning when switching vote, making it seem like it was more pressure on himself to justify his vote (and the numbers on C-C-C-C) that made the difference, rather than becoming any more convinced of C's guilt.

And it turns out I do feel strongly enough on this. ##Unvote, ##Vote: Demotivational Poster.

[Asuka Langley]

Only here briefly. Will be around for the last few hours of the day. May check back in brief patches between now and then.

Bad gut reaction to just how smoothly the train on -2C has come about, and driving myself paranoid about stupid potential teams as a result. On calming down I'm tossing that out of the window, as it can't hope to outweigh my strength on the case. The lurker dash to it is cancelled out by similar opinions from the players I trust more.

-2C raises an interesting point in that I'm not sure what reaction he could have come up with to shake me off, but I'm pretty sure that playing exactly to the script I'd mentioned for scum play can't have been far from the worst potential reaction. Notably I nearly unvoted you when CATS and I think it was Rick started looking worse, but it was at that point you introduced the horrible retconning, which made the vote for the big black box look so much worse.

XBox 360 dancing on -2C now. Is this new or consistent? No time to check. The thing I have with XBox 360 is that yeah, lots and lots of it strikes me as newbie errors and playing around with game theory poorly, but there's still quite a chunk of it that's still scummy, like the whole stupid pressure vote thing.

Still expect there to be scum in the ranks of the quiet. Top bet's on Duck Roll v2 for the shallow and poor argument/s, but Boxed Air is playing on cruise control to the max.

Ninja from the box: uh, Poster's gone down my happy chart consistently today, but I don't have the time this minute to evaluate any of that. 12 hours from deadline is not a good time to start a brand new case, though.

[COMBO BREAKER]

The problem with hypocrisy is that going after someone whose posting similarly to yourself only makes sense for scum. I of all people know town can make stupid mistakes, but if you're claiming to be a townie who's make a poor post you shouldn't have, what makes you believe that Soviet isn't the same? What reason do the rest of us have to vote him over you?

People have given a lot of credit to the whole "active lurker" thing, and I think that he fits it more than to a T. He defines it. He brings it to new levels. His Astley case came out of thin air. It started as a lurker case with absolutely no reasoning other than being a lurker case. It's not how it started though that makes it bad, it's that he's stuck to it regardless of everything that has happened during the day despite his only real justification for it coming in this post, much further in the day. He's trying to play it off as new content... without adding any new content. I'll admit that Astley hasn't given him much to work from, but even pointing that out would help! He seems determined to ride it out, just because. Leaves him open to hammer, maybe?

Dog: Don't know what to say about X-Box's switch... Hard to say if it's consistant, as they just jumped into the role today. Vote-wise, he put it on Soviet and kept it there until now. But it just doesn't look good. I'm honestly confused at the reasoning, as it seems more like a case-starter than a vote-to-remind-later type deal, but the timing is baffling.

[Margaret Houlihan]

Gah. Demotivator for me today, as a good position D1 mixed with little time for Mafia made me run on minimal content today. Hopefully I'll improve on that for tomorrow, since I'll have more time, but I'll admit my content's been bad for today. This post is something of a mess, but is aiming to summarise stuff for today.

Last post was made in a rush, but I'm completely torn between the two. Combo's last post is mostly stuff that's been said already, as far as Soviet goes. Most of today seems to be Town following along with Advice Dog, so I'm somewhat concerned about that - not Advice Dog, since it's good content, but more everyone else who's followed along (Milhouse stands out for creating a WoT in rehashing it, although that's because of the absence).
ARGH. Having to move AGAIN. No idea when I'll next be around so... expect more tomorrow, and I'm sorry about the lack of content. >.>

[Helga Pataki]

"Back, feeling better, should be around @ deadline. Responding to a few things first.

"Shana/Shiki/whatevs: Can you please actually prove you're reading my posts? As in, not ask me questions that were elaborated on in the two posts? First time, sure, whatever, but this time it just reads very poorly on your part, at least to me.

"Re: CCCCCCCC... I don't know. I think the case is one part good, one part somewhat overblown, I guess is what I'd say? I can see the foreshadowed move to Soviet Russia and the negligence on XBox's actual content, but some of the points feel overblown? (Looking at... MINAMIAM's first point, also commented on by Advice Dog. It's a headache of a block of words, but it doesn't seem too bad to me. MINAMIAM's second point, however, clarifies the switch issues, which I appreciate).

"Re: Hueg liek XBox...

"What.

"No, seriously, what. Are you still attempting to dig at that? Really, now. Attempting to theorize I'm scum (before you try and deny this part there is -absolutely- no reason to take that train of thought otherwise)... because scum's best move is to -roleblock- scum... despite, as you said, there are TOWN roles to block and blocking themselves is potentially harmful... I... no. No, that flies nowhere. This may be way too late, but Lord that stinks so far to heaven it's not funny."

##UNVOTE: Soviet Russia
##VOTE: Hueg Like XBox  (follow the bouncing voting ball! Wow this is gonna be a silly voting record on my end.)

"Highly want XBox lynch at this point. Uncertain between CCCCCC and Russia, they're the next two. Some other suspicion of varying orders, and then a general concept of people I think at least cleared, but that info's irrelevant right now.

"Working on one more post, uncertain if I've the time for it, though. Will be breaking down XBox's few posts since the rejoin."

[Margaret Houlihan]

Surprised this meme wasn't picked.

Anyways, as I was saying. I'm kinda concerned that nearly everyone's just rehashing the same arguments, but I know I fall into that as well. Overall, to me, this day is mostly written off when it comes to looking for who's most likely to be Town, meaning I'm forced to look at scummy play instead, which is where Combo and Soviet really excel.
To recap for personal use:
Soviet:
 - Had the D1 "No Lynch" - would've written this off as bad town if not for the complete backtrack about halfway through the day to say "It's a Trap!" since I find that impossible to believe. Has made weak cases today using weak logic to push what are otherwise simply pushed as lurker cases. Bad logic throughout seems scummy as hell.
Combo:
 - Nothing D1 that matters to me - the argument with Dawg can go either way, so null read. Mostly just active lurking, until D2 hits with that "I'll remove the vote when Xbox posts something good!" Removed it and went straight for the easiest case straight afterwards, has contributed nothing else.

So it basically comes down to "Scummy vs. Less scummy, but with major active lurking" for me. Combo's last post is... not amazing. Soviet's definitely not active lurking the way I see it - he is presenting new cases, no matter how bad they are. Xbox has been mostly weak, but I really don't see any point in anyone pushing that today - we've got two viable lynches in Combo and Soviet, both have been weak throughout, and I think we're too close to deadline to effectively push anything new now.

My previous post with the switch was bad, yes. Swayed by the case presentation from Advice Dog, and changed my vote without looking back over the case of Soviet. Sticking with that one, so:
##Unvote, Vote: Soviet Russia
Yeah, he's still behind Combo, but I can still be happy with a Combo lynch. And I know this looks terrible, but that's because my vote for Combo was bad, not this one, and so I'd rather correct my mistakes than leave a vote on someone I don't think deserves it as much.

2g1c Ninja: Right, gonna do a quick votecount. Hope this is all right.
Soviet Russia: (3) -  SHANA IS HOT, COMBO BREAKER, Demotivator
XBOX: (2) - All Your Base, 2g1c
2girls1cup: (2) - Rick Astley, Cake
Rick Astley: (1) - Soviet Russia
COMBO BREAKER: (5) - Advice Dog, Milhouse, Bel Air, Touhou, Zerg
Demotivator: (1) - Xbox

asdfsdgfsdhfsht. Looking over Xbox's post against me, I think he's ignoring the entire case against Combo. My problem isn't with him moving votes, it's the logic he used to ensure he'd be able to. His entire argument against you was lurker, and so he had an easy switch as soon as you posted anything.
Gaaah, this is pain. I'm not likely to be around from now until deadline, and would still like to see Russia lynched. I'll leave my vote there, but will stop by later if I can.

[VySaika]

Yo Dawg I heard you like votecounts, so I put a votecount in your game so you can stay updated while you vote.

Votecount
Soviet Russia: (3) - Zerg Rush, Demotivator, XBOX, 2girls1cup, SHANA IS HOT, COMBO BREAKER, Demotivator
Cake: (0) - Touhou Hijacker, Advice Dog, Zerg Rush, 2girls1cup
XBOX: (2) - Touhou Hijacker, COMBO BREAKER, Touhou Hijacker, All Your Base, 2girls1cup
2girls1cup: (2) - Touhou Hijacker Rick Astley, Cake
SHANA IS HOT: (0) - Cake
Rick Astley: (1) - 2girls1cup Soviet Russia
Demotivator: (1) - SHANA IS HOT XBOX
COMBO BREAKER: (5) - Demotivator, Advice Dog, Milhouse, Bel Air, Touhou Hijacker, Zerg Rush

With 14 memes alive, it takes 8 votes to axe someone in the face.

Day 2 ends at 6PM PST/9PM EST, roughly 9 hours from this post.

[Alice Margatroid]

Can't say the Breaker's new set of posts does much to make me want to change my vote. Apologizing doesn't just make the bad things go away. Trust me, I should know. I hope someday I'll be able to fully open my third eye again...

CATS' post bothers me a little, not so much from a content standpoint, but because it's like he didn't even notice the Breaker train picking up. I know he said previously that he was going to wait for the Breaker to post something more substantial, but still, I'd think he'd see the string of votes and maybe rethink the Breaker for himself. One of those little subconscious pings, y'know?

Shana, I think you must have closed all of your eyes or something. The girls' reason for voting Cake is here.

Demote...wow. Seriously. What made you change your mind about your Russia vs. Breaker statement here? A small amount of pressure from the Xbox's vote, that didn't really have a lot of oomph behind it anyway (especially given his case against you is highlighted by another wording argument that almost makes me want to switch back to him)? That looks like breakdown to the max there.

[Margaret Houlihan]

Oh, dammit. Fucked up tags.
Also, short post, so demotivator is irrelevant. Or is it?

The post you linked to, Touhou, was a small follow-up directly after the previous one, which was the bad post of mine I was referring to. Xbox's vote does mean nothing, and I'm not reacting to that, just putting my vote where it should have been kept in the first place. As bad as Combo's been today, there's no way I can just ignore the fact that Russia's been bad throughout both days on the grounds of him making one half-decent post.

Also got deadline wrong, apparently. Still won't be around for it, but should be around for a couple of hours now.

[Alice Margatroid]

Something must be lost in communication here. Let's pick at your memories for a second.

Soviet's done a lot wrong, but he's also done some right lately. You said yourself that his latest post is okay. Now look at Combo, and find his good post.

I assumed this was in response to Shana, who expressed annoyance with "excuses to not vote Soviet". I assume the thought quoted above was a major reason for your first switch, since a thought like that is a good reason to change one's mind. I don't understand why this thought process stopped, because it's still true as far as I can tell, unless you think the Breaker's most recent posts are him "doing some right" (which you apparently don't think). You then break the decision up into "scummy vs. less scummy with major active lurking" (as if "major active lurking" isn't scummy) and then...go back to Russia? Why? I don't understand this. How was this decision made? Even if we assume that the quantity of Russia's scummy actions is larger (of course, I don't, which I admit may be coloring my view on this see-saw a bit), do you really think the collective scummy magnitude of his actions is larger than that of the Breaker's?

[Tanaka]

Yo homies whats up?

Just finished glossing over the Russian, and honestly I'm back to thinking he looks bad,  I'm starting to think my brain was so melted yesterday that I was simply happy to not see him pulling the no lynch IT'S A TRAP type stunt again today.  So yeah, Russia is accusing Astley of voting for the cup girls based on their claim when it seems pretty obvious he was not, have pretty much stuck with that vote for who knows why, I'm pretty sure others have already gone over that, not seeing a reason to continually stick on Astley with the continual faulty logic.

So now I'm stuck at this point where the Russians are tied for C-C-Combo for who I think might be scum, but I don't think they're both scum off hand.  So then I thought, "well hell, which one should I stick on" and it got me to look at where their votes are a bit and so here's what I'm thinking right now:

If Russia flips town, it makes Combo look horrendously bad due to the whole X-box switch of thing, x-box looks slightly bad by extension though he's not on the train himself right now, though he was earlier on.  If Russia flips scum, Combo looks better, x box would look slightly worse to me since he got of the Russian once combo started looking worse to people, and then proceeds to place his vote somewhere that I don't really see picking up steam today.

In retrospect if Combo flips town, it doesn't really tell us much about the Russian, and fails to give info on the box also, whereas if he flips scum then X-box could probably be seen to be worse off.

Considering how torn I've gotten myself between Russia and Combo, I'm going to go ahead and switch to the one I think will give me more to work with, so:

##U-U-U-Unvote: C-C-C-Combo Breaker
##Vote: In Soviet Russia

Any thoughts on my logic?  I'm interested to hear if anyone thinks it's no good, Startin making trouble in my neighborhood I got in one little fight and my mom got scared And said 'You're movin' with your auntie and uncle in Bel Air'

[Bill Hellsnake]

Gonna lead this by saying that the roleblock is slightly Town, but mostly WIFOM. Assume there is a Roleblocker. They could have shot at someone at random as easily as they could have decided to target a fellow scum, so that they could continue roleblocking later on. Having the roleblocker role confirmed, the first person to claim being blocked would then be mostly given a clear. I ignored her claim of being roleblocked because I see it as WIFOM. Can we please move past this until it actually becomes relevant? Thank you.

Next, might I request that our friendly neighbourhood Serial Killer nuke whichever of our trains isn't lynched today? Either that, or we try to direct it elsewhere. We know that there's a serial killer/vigilante (which might or might not be killed/roleblocked tonight) so we might as well use it to our advantage. But, seriously. Why are we just leaving it alone, and some of us saying "we should deal with it later, if it proves to be anti-town"? That's some pretty anti-town behaviour, right there. Use the non-scum NK-er to our advantage, so we can keep them pro-town.

To re-hash on what I was saying about the case on 2g1c via their !cake case, I read what !cake was saying differently, and over-reacted. Will fully admit it. Also gonna fully admit to lurking (because I haven't had much to say so far) and to the fact that MINAM was, after all, just coming from gut. Now then, on to business.

##Unvote: 2g1c
##Vote: In Soviet Russia

Reasoning: Has been re-hashed. A dozen. Times. Over. There are two other things I'd like to point out, however: 1. Still voting me (even after admitting that I wasn't just attacking the Cup-Sisters for their roleblock claim) when there were clearly others to vote, or at least look at during its latest post. (Do you see any mention of anybody but me there?)
2. Hypocrisy. Lots of it. Attacks others for herding here, and then blatantly attempts to herd here and here, and even admits he was trying to funnel votes onto me here when complaining about others attacking it for "trying to garner support."

Oh, and before I forget: Didn't seem to understand a single thing about what I was saying in my earlier post. Very bad mudslinging here.

So, uhh, yeah. Claim I'm OMGUSing as much as you want. I am adamant in my stance that Russia is scum.

-------------------------------------------
TOUHOU HIJACKED, LOL. And Bel Air hijacked. Less lol. (AKA: Ninjas)
Not much to say. We (Bel Air and I) seem to agree a decent bit on why Russia's scummy. Good points about what flips will tell us, though.

[Asuka Langley]

Oh man, horrible logic alert. Not back properly yet, but I can't just let this go by.

GRafisduigsdfgidfujsdigsdjgf on any game theory that posits scum roleblocking themselves night 1. scum2g1c requires a lot of really gutsy scum play and the context here makes town2g1c far more plausible. Big pluses. Don't stick too much on this point, though.

Worse, far worse is trying to direct the bonus kill. Never ever ever direct night actions. The bonus killer, let's go ahead and just say it is !cake, should be using his own best judgement. His claim is enough to keep him at least anti-scum if not pro-town. You think if we don't direct him he'll get away with starting to kill town leaders? Do not give scum a chance to affect the kill, don't give them any warning or certainty. Terrible terrible terrible.

Not to forget that Rick is moving away from slinking away from his utter lack of a case on 2g1c. Attacking Commie for saying that you were only attacking 2g1c for the roleblock claim? Your vote was on her for next to nothing.

Hate hate hate on Duck Roll v2. Already bad enough. This sudden shift to Commie leading from two of the dodgiest of our numbers makes me utterly oppose a Commie lynch now.

Boxed Air's logic is bad as well. Lining up lynches and lynching for information rather than by scumminess.

[Li Syaoran]

Geh.

@ShikiShana: I never said that he was town, I just disagree that today's the day to lynch Soviet. He has enough outright weirdness about him that makes him lower-priority imho than people who are being totally outright scummy without the strangeness to them. Namely XBox, and Breaker. Take of this what you will.

@Breaker: Eh. The self-defeatism is a null tell, main thing I take issue with is accusing Russia of active lurking: the issue is that your definition lacks one key aspect of active lurking, namely, y'know, the lurking part of it. Russia hasn't been flying under the radar, he's been flying directly in front of it with a giant neon sign attached to him with an arrow and the words "LOOK AT ME, I'M IN UR AIRSPACE, BEING DETECTED BY UR RADAR!!!". That being said, if you were so ardent about Russia, why the initial XBox lurkerslam? Rhetorical question, since you've already answered this, but it is telling that you are blasting the Soviets for behaviour similar to yours - if you're misguided town, why do you think Soviet is scum as opposed to similarly misguided town? In fact XBox 360 asks this exact question - probably the only good thing that XBox 360 has posted since he replaced-in for the old model XBox. As above, I am fairly dissatisfied by C-C-C-C's response, and as a result am unconvinced.

XBox 360 moves onto Demotivational Poster with yet another weak-ass case, 12 hours before deadline. Case made largely on claims of hypocricy (of which the 'Box is certainly privy to himself), and the statement that the vote was an L-2 vote, which is 100% null tell any way.

Demotivational himself starts making no sense whatsoever. He moves back onto Russia because...why? Why do you find issue with being swayed by 'Dog's case in the first place? Is it a bad case? Just going by their D2 behaviours, who is worse between Russia and C-C-C-C?

That being said, Soviet Russia is starting to make me uncomfortable himself, principally due to still not answering two questions:
A) Could you please summarize your actual case on Rick Astley, now that it is clear that your original reason for voting him was based off a misunderstanding of one of his posts, and
B) If it is just LAL, why is D2 the day for LAL? Early day pressure votes for lurkers are not bad. Actually pressing LAL over people that are actually scummy, such as XBox 360 and C-C-C-C, on the other hand, is bad. Thus, why continue the vote on Astley?

@Touhou Hijack: at the time of my post, yours was a ninjapost, and the subsequent posts by Zerg Rush and the motivational-sapping posters were after I had already posted. Whether L-4 can be called the point at which a train is "picking up" is debatable. Not sure what your implication even is here.

And...Bel Air. Bel Air, Bel Air, Bel Air. Your previous post where you vote C-C-C-C actually admits that you're too lazy to really explain anything as to a case, not even 1-2 lines as to what portions of the case that Advice Dog states that you agree with, and your principal given justification is that the Soviets seem to be trying harder today to actually provide content, and the fact that XBox and C-C-C-C are both on Soviet's wagon implies that they are more scummy somehow? Wagonalysis makes absolutely no sense at all if at least one of the people involved in the wagon has not yet flipped. Otherwise, it is completely and totally meaningless. But you manage to outdo yourself with your latest post. What. I mean seriously, just...what. So you're going for the informational lynch angle here? Over actually evaluating scumminess of both? Seriously? What.

Augh. Terrible posts all around.

Ninja Astley! Finally! Hm. I will admit that I forgot about the second NK we get from !Cake. This changes things up a bit.

Thanks to the extra NK, I am slightly more comfortable with a Soviet Russia lynch (as this lets C-C-C-C get NK'd using the extra nightkill). However, I still think C-C-C-C is the better lynchtarget of the two trains (I have more trust in the lynch than I do in a role which should not be highly trusted and could be misdirected/blocked by scum (ffs, we have confirmation from 2g1c that there exists a roleblocker out there, at minimum, possibly more things that could interfere with Cake's NK abilities, who knows) and could very well be third-party and not town), ##Unvote, Vote: C-C-C-COMBO BREAKER!

Will be around up to and including deadline.

Incidentally, where did !Cake disappear off to? I mean seriously, what.

Ninja Dog!: Soviet's case on Astley WAS pretty much nonexistent, however, Astley's case on 2g1c was also pretty much nonexistent. Is "terrible case on suspicious person A by suspicious person B, who was attacked earlier by suspicious person A, using a terrible case" more of a scumtell on person A, or person B? i.e. While Astley is terrible for his own reasons, I fail to see why attacking Soviet for Soviet attacking him due to what is now no reason makes Astley scummier. imho, at least that much is a 100% null tell in my book, for both parties involved.

[Bill Hellsnake]

What the hell? Nice mudslinging there, Dog. But if anybody had actually read what I said, I'm calling the roleblock WIFOM. I was explaining why I dismissed it, not theorizing.

Why shouldn't we? If we honestly believe two people to be scum, then why not? All it does is help us clear cases we believe to be bad, and move on to something fresh and new. Clearly all we're doing so far is sitting around and getting stagnant. Besides, you're the one who who was saying that we should 'deal with !cake if he's not kept anti-scum.' How do we know when he's being anti-scum and when he's not? If there are two deaths a night, both town, how do we know which one is Serial Killer and which one is the mafia?

Stop chainsaw defending Russia. I want to see RUSSIA defend itself, not you. Oh yeah, and more mudslinging is where you throw away most of what I was saying about Russia. Thanks for that.

Go away Dog. I don't want to deal with you right now.

Ninja'd by AYB, reading now.

[Margaret Houlihan]

Come in, rehash old cases, leave again. I'm looking at you, Astley and Bel Air.

do you really think the collective scummy magnitude of his actions is larger than that of the Breaker's?

Exactly.

But, uhh, wow. Recent events have me tempted to vote for Astley. You see her roleblock claim as WIFOM despite it being this early, easy to disprove and helpful to Town should it be true? And ugh directing night actions. Enough's been said on that, but that is just terrible, and pretty much out-scums anything else today.

AYB, I'm having no problem following Dog's case. I've been mostly out of the game for today, and am annoyed that I, amongst others, have done nothing but follow his logic. It's presumably good logic, but I think everyone, myself included, needs to provide a little more original evidence.

Bel Air... It's bad, but I can honestly see lynching for information in this situation. I hate the idea normally, but when we're looking at two players who have been really damn scummy for a while? However, I don't see how Combo flipping Town tells us nothing, or how the WIFOM gives us any real information to work with. So, yeah, bad (and definitely scummy) post on the whole.

RickNinja'd: Nononononono. Directing NKs is bad and just tells scum what is being planned. We'll know which one was the NKer if they live through the night and can say "I shot that person" and, otherwise, they're one of the deaths. Simple as that. And, yeah, rest is in the rest of this post.

[Bill Hellsnake]

Not really picking up on anything from AYB's post.

Ninja'd by Poster. I still believe it to be a good course of action, but whatever. Clearly it's a difference in playstyle and thought patterns. I'm just gonna drop it there. As for the WIFOM, yes, I'm saying it's entirely possible that scum decided to pull a gambit. Why the bloody hell not? The fact that it is an entirely feasible option is what has me calling it WIFOM. I DO NOT THINK IT WORTH CONSIDERING UNTIL THERE IS A REASON TO. It's like scum claiming cop from the getgo, (albeit the example is far gutsier) it leaves them with the perfect opportunity to say "this person is town" or "this person is scum" and for them to be right. It also allows them to clear another scum. It is entirely a possibility, and therefore, I'm not going to trust claims out of nowhere, without a good reason to. I'm thinking her town now, but more out of finding other people more suspicious. If she were to start acting extremely scummy, I would still want her lynched.

[Alice Margatroid]

Extremely low on time. Have to leave. Will try to be back before deadline, but no guarantees. Vote stays on Breaker.

I don't know what else to say to Demote at this point because I don't know why so many people don't seem to understand the reasoning behind Russia's Astley vote. Starting to wonder if maybe I'm the wrong one here. I vehemently disagree with the idea that Russia has more scummy points than Breaker but I guess that's Russia's argument to make now since I'm out of ideas.

Lynching for information is not good. No, not even in this situation. It's just an excuse to avoid having an actual opinion on which of Russia and Breaker is scummier and the only reason to avoid sharing such an opinion is to avoid any potential flip ramifications down the line which only scum are concerned with. Pick a damn side.

CATS, I was referring more to the three votes for Breaker right in a row before your post, from Milhouse, Bel Air and myself. Yes, my post may have been a ninja (I'm willing to grant that your post took more than an hour to write because time-based cases are dickholish), but you still made no effort to even acknowledge the ninjas.

[Margaret Houlihan]

Okay, the part on 2g1c, I can understand. Not saying I agree with it entirely, but it's fair enough.
I don't think directing night actions is anything to do with playstyle, though. How about we mass roleclaim while we're at it and just pick out the least believable claims? As you did, an extreme example, but demonstrates the point. We don't want to give scum information. We lynch for scum while limiting their information as much as possible.

Touhou Ninja says little of note, mostly explanations. Lynching for information... I can see the logic, but I've struggled to choose between the two for a good part of today, and you've said about "potential flip ramifications down the line" - stating an opinion ties you to those, though, and a Town player still has to worry about mislynches, especially if it's themself being lynched. Still, that won't apply now, considering how much this has been thrown around, so an opinion on who's actually scummier wouldn't be bad, regardless of how close it is.

[Margaret Houlihan]

Replace 'picture' for 'topic' for trufax.

Have to leave now. Hopefully the latest content makes up slightly for the early day, and I will hopefully deliver more tomorrow.
Leaving my vote on Russia because aaarrgrhgh the scummy behaviour it burns. (Case has been rehashed several times, not again.)

[VySaika]

I made u a votecount but I eated it~

Votecount
Soviet Russia: (5) - Zerg Rush, Demotivator, XBOX, 2girls1cup, SHANA IS HOT, COMBO BREAKER, Demotivator, Bel Air, Rick Astley
Cake: (0) - Touhou Hijacker, Advice Dog, Zerg Rush, 2girls1cup
XBOX: (1) - Touhou Hijacker, COMBO BREAKER, Touhou Hijacker, All Your Base, 2girls1cup
2girls1cup: (1) - Touhou Hijacker, Rick Astley, Cake
SHANA IS HOT: (0) - Cake
Rick Astley: (1) - 2girls1cup Soviet Russia
Demotivator: (1) - SHANA IS HOT XBOX
COMBO BREAKER: (5) - Demotivator, Bel Air, Advice Dog, Milhouse, Touhou Hijacker, Zerg Rush, All Your Base

With 14 memes alive, it takes 8 votes to axe someone in the face.

Day 2 ends at 6PM PST/9PM EST, roughly 4.5 hours from this post.

[Bill Hellsnake]

Welp, I figure I'm as good as dead anyway. Either today, tonight, or tomorrow. And I won't be around for deadline, so... May as well go out with style, to something that goes a little like this~

We're no strangers to mafia~
You know the rules, and so do I.
A full commitment's what I'm unable to give.
You wouldn't get this from any other meme.

I just want to tell you what I'm thinking.
Gotta make you... understand.
Never gonna give you up, never gonna let you down.
Never gonna run around and desert you.
Never gonna make you cry, never gonna say "oh my!"
Never gonna tell a lie and hurt you.

We've known each other, for two days.
Your head's been aching, but you're too shy to say it.
Inside we both know what's been going on.
We know the game and we're, gonna play it.
Aaaaaand, if you ask me what I'm thinking,
Don't tell me you're too blind to see.
 

* Rick Astley shuts off the music

1. Dog has been giving Russia a chainsaw defense the entire damn game. Even D1, though it was less of a chainsaw defense then.
2. Dog's posts have a lot of words, but not much actual content. (Gonna point you here where it's really bad. Sure, he has that whole case on Breaker, but check out everything above that. Tell me you can't summarize that in one sentence or less)
3. Dog himself has mentioned the possibility of a town roleblocker. (And I'm gonna emphasize that with a BASTARD MODDING warning)
4. I... really don't see Russia defending itself much. Dog has been doing it instead.
5. Don't give me a damn cry of "but he's so helpful! and Townie!" We all know damn well that a good scum plays like a good town, and we ALL know it's entirely possible for someone that's 100% townie-seeming to be scum. (Hi Samurai Jack)
6. Russia has been terrible this game. Inexcusably so.
7. Dog did set himself up to lynch !cake later with subtle wording. Although now he's gone back on it and set his stance in stone by trying to condemn me.
8. Seriously, look over Dog and his interactions with Russia. Now look at his interactions with the other people who've been trains with Russia at the time, and the people who've been accusing Russia. Look it over.

Alright, night. Go Town. I hope you enjoy being led around by the nose.
 

* Rick Astley turns the music back on