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Author Topic: Theorycrafting! (Because I like competitive metagames too much)  (Read 133527 times)

metroid composite

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Re: Theorycrafting! (Because I like competitive metagames too much)
« Reply #425 on: July 09, 2014, 10:17:11 AM »
Ok, so let's fill out the deck potentially.

Going to assume 40ish land.

20 humans

This leaves 40 cards unassigned

10ish ramp spells, whether these are ETB creatures or just spells.

10ish control cards

10ish hugely expensive bombs

10ish other ETB creatures

something like that?  Let's see...

Combo:

Angel of Glory's Rise
Acidic Slime
Clone
Sunblast Angel
Pelakka Wurm
Coiling Oracle
Wall of Omens
Wall of Blossoms
Mulldrifter
Sower of Temptation
Soul of the Harvest
Indrink Stomphowler
Seedborn Muse

(13, easy to cut a cycler.  Would not mind cutting Indrink Stomphowler when we already have Acidic Slime)

Big EDH bombs

Storm Herd
Omniscence
Boundless Realms
Jin-Gitaxias, Core Agur
Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
Avacyn, Angel of Hope
Blatant Thievery
Lightning Greaves
Inkwell Leviathan
Time Stretch
True Conviction

(hmm...11 again.  Jin-Gitaxias has the most lines, but there's lots of linebreaks so not really that wordy.  Hmm...maybe cut Storm Herd of this list?  It tends to win on its own, and interacts with nothing else in the deck.  Has the potential to give the feeling of "I had this brilliant plan, but it didn't matter because 40 pegasuses").

Control

Desert Twister
Sleep
Swords to Plowshares
Condemn
Beast Within
Counterspell
Control Magic
Treachery
Evacuation
Archon of Justice

(10 cards...honestly that's enough when several of the bounce cards are also removal.  Would not mind cutting Treachery as there's already a decent amount of stealing in the deck)

Ramp

Farhaven Elf
Wood Elves
Sylvan Ranger
Ondu Giant
Show and Tell
Elvish Piper
Chromatic Lantern
Prismatic Omen
Sol Ring
Explosive Vegetation

10.  Would not mind cutting the Sylvan Ranger.


Ok, so drop Sylvan Ranger, Storm Herd, Treachery, Indrink Stomphowler.  That adds up to 40.

Wait, general...hmm, running 39 lands is fairly normal.  So...add Roon, subtract one land.  Actually...I would not mind subtracting Sol Ring for a 40th land.  It may be ridiculously good, but it taps for 2 and I think new players forget about that.  Also doesn't fix colour screw.





EDIT: well small update: wood elves has no "battlefield" template printing, so

-1 wood elves

Sylvan Ranger can thus go back in

+1 Sylvan Ranger

And...while Noble Hierarch is unnecessarily complex, know what card is human and a 1 mana manadork?

+1 Avacyn's Pilgrim (going down to 39 lands).
« Last Edit: July 10, 2014, 06:14:50 AM by metroid composite »

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Re: Theorycrafting! (Because I like competitive metagames too much)
« Reply #426 on: July 11, 2014, 07:02:10 AM »
You say "I had this brilliant plan, but it didn't matter because 40 pegasuses" like it is a bad thing.  It is probably the Whitest thing a girl could get say.
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Re: Theorycrafting! (Because I like competitive metagames too much)
« Reply #427 on: July 11, 2014, 08:31:11 AM »
You say "I had this brilliant plan, but it didn't matter because 40 pegasuses" like it is a bad thing.  It is probably the Whitest thing a girl could get say.

Well, fair, but what would you cut in its place?

Omniscence
Boundless Realms
Jin-Gitaxias, Core Agur
Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
Avacyn, Angel of Hope
Blatant Thievery
Lightning Greaves
Inkwell Leviathan
Time Stretch
True Conviction

I think Omniscience, Jin-Gitaxias, Elesh Norn, Avacyn, Blatant Thievery, and Time Stretch deliver a fantastic amount of power in relatively little complexity.

Lightning Greaves is an option I guess, but it's also a 2 drop, in a deck very low on 2 drops.

Boundless Realms is really fun to cast.  Although I guess this deck doesn't have all that many mana sinks, so going from 7 mana to 14 mana...it lets you cast 10 mana spells if you have them, but that's about it.  Sure, I guess this is a candidate.

Inkwell Leviathan...so the draw of this is the "one line of text".  The downside of this is that the one line is all keywords.  And kind-of obscure keywords at that (islandwalk and shroud, looking at you two).

True Conviction...is one of two sources of lifegain in the deck?  I see a lot of relatively new players adding it.  That said, the power level on it is not super high, and it does have the Inkwell Leviathan problem of "What's Lifelink?"



Hmm...sure.

+1 Storm Herd

So...line count may be undescriptive; Boundless Realms is 4 lines, but it's actually kinda tiny font.  Counting the number of characters...

Boundless Realms: 163 chars
Storm Herd: 102 chars
True Conviction: 55 chars (+54 for double strike reminder text.  +70 for lifelink reminder text)
Lightning Greaves: 97 chars (+149 chars for equipment reminder text)
Inkwell Leviathan: 28 chars (+69 chars for Islandwalk.  +149 chars for trample.  +58 chars for shroud)

Granted, Storm Herd has flying, but I feel like people generally don't ask to have flying explained to them.  I also feel like Trample is not really 149 characters worth of mandatory information.

Lightning Greaves is a bit of a mess though.  I have seen new players look at equipment and ask "what do I do with this?"  And it's not really intuitive equipment; it's not like Bonesplitter "oh this is an axe".  0 equip cost is kind-of weird.  It protects your dude, but then makes you unable to target it yourself.  Yeah...

-1 Lightning Greaves

By comparison

Priviliged Position: 97 chars (+33 for hybrid reminder text)

Yeah, that's a much more intuitive harder to screw yourself over.

+1 Priviliged Position

Which means I still need to remove one...

-1 Boundless Realms

Yeah...the deck doesn't have a strong need to go up to 20 lands, say.  And all three of Boundless Realms/True Conviction/Inkwell are in the 160+ character range once you account for reminder text, but I think the other two being more condensed wording helps.  If you're evaluating your hand, and look at Inkwell Leviathan, you can very quickly figure out that it's big, which is all you will usually need to know about it.


EDIT: while we're at it, might as well compare them all:

Omniscience - 75 chars

Jin Gitaxias - 114 chars (+ some explanation for flash)

Elesh Norn - 93 chars (+ some explanation for vigilance)

Avacyn - 94 (+ some explanation for vigilance and maybe indestructible)

Blatant Thievery - 74

Time Stretch - 52
« Last Edit: July 11, 2014, 08:52:08 AM by metroid composite »

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Re: Theorycrafting! (Because I like competitive metagames too much)
« Reply #428 on: July 11, 2014, 12:32:26 PM »
I was really joking, but an actual analysis of the cards I know?  (Still on phone, will look at shiny things when home... When not listening to music.

Lightning Greaves vs Storm Herd I think flying tends to parse much much easier with new players than Shroud does.  There is a reason Shroud wasn't a key word originally.  It interacts really frustratingly to someone who has started to understand the complexities of things like the stack and how you can use the Greaves in combos can be pretty complex (Target the creature first so it is low on the stack, use instants etcetcetc) to keep in mind.

40 Pegasus is 40 Pegasus in comparison.

Lifelink also fits in the "wasn't key worded early for a reason" category,
But it works easier, so can see that one working.

That said.  Greaves are a great 2 drop and they really are a cool flexible card.  I would have trouble dropping them from a deck.

Edit - Boundless Realms is probably a good candidate.  I think the biggest thing it lets you do is dump like Omniscience sooner?  Eh.  I think your other Ramp stuff covers your mana growth fine.

For Inkwell Leviathan, my personal hate for landwalk and how uneven it is for how much it hoses a player is pretty strong and I would think about dropping it for all that Landwalk probably applies more frequently in EDH than I am used to.  That said a 7 power unblockable that I can't target pushes me in my fuck you I concede zones anyway (Especially because I am playing blue and I don't have a suite full of untargetted effects).  Also I forget if Trample is hard for people that are new or is just hard for old players because of changes to Trample rules.

There isn't anything else I would drop.  Including Lightning Greaves.  They are just too sexy.  And as ehehhhhhhhhh as I am on Shroud for newbies, I think a 0 cost equip artifact is a damn good way to train people on it AND 0 cost utility equipment is good to show new people A) how Equipment is different than Auras and to use them differently than Auras.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2014, 02:09:33 PM by Grefter »
NO MORE POKEMON - Meeplelard.
The king perfect of the DL is and always will be Excal. - Superaielman
Don't worry, just jam it in anyway. - SirAlex
Gravellers are like, G-Unit - Trancey.

metroid composite

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Re: Theorycrafting! (Because I like competitive metagames too much)
« Reply #429 on: July 11, 2014, 05:52:57 PM »
Well...training people on equipment and auras is cool and all that, except this deck has none.  It also has no planeswalkers.  It also has no lands that bounce other lands, or blow up other lands, or do things other than just tap for exactly 1 mana.


Like...cheap and tons of utility is good, but I've already shown that I'm not afraid to cut Sol Ring, and Bant Charm:

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=137931

(Bant Charm being like...in the running for best EDH removal ever.  Sol Ring being ridiculously overpowered).


This deck doesn't need to teach people everything, they just need to have a good time playing it, and feel like they're figuring out combos and making an impact on the multiplayer match instead of spectating as more synergistic decks clash with each other.  As a result, the "combo" cards are slightly more complex, and have more stuff to think about.  The awesome bombs are a little bit simpler, stuff that doesn't really require much thought.  And the more utility stuff like removal (and greaves kind of falls into this category)...I'm really trying to strip those down to stuff that does exactly what it sounds like it does, and requires little to no explanation.  One problem with greaves: the printed version that explains how to use equipment uses the old template ("comes into play" rather than "enters the battlefield").  And more recent reprints just assume that the player knows what equipment is.


Inkwell Leviathan screwing over people with Islands concerns me very little.  The one consistent Island player in the group plays Pariah's Shield on indestructible  creatures and thus will often be taking no damage anyway.  Also 7 damage kills in 6 turns.  A 6 turn clock on a 9 drop in EDH is...decent, not really unfair or anything.  It's not on the same level of scary as summoning 40 pegasuses.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2014, 06:03:12 PM by metroid composite »

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Re: Theorycrafting! (Because I like competitive metagames too much)
« Reply #430 on: July 12, 2014, 06:52:03 AM »
So...trying to decide if there's something cooler than Priviliged Position for the last bomb slot; looking at these right now...

Hoverguard Sweepers
Novablast wurm
Drogskol Reaver
Windreader Sphinx
Regal Force

EDIT: Hoverguard Sweepers is a no; wrong template ("Comes into play").  Drogskol Reaver and Windreader Sphinx trigger off of weird stuff that isn't always easy to remember, so probably also no on those.  Regal Force also has the wrong template ("Comes into play").

More options

Platinum Angel
Platinum Emperion
« Last Edit: July 12, 2014, 02:05:11 PM by metroid composite »

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Re: Theorycrafting! (Because I like competitive metagames too much)
« Reply #431 on: July 21, 2014, 04:44:00 AM »
So I can clearly see you invest a fair bit into this here, but want to ask some of the process anyway.

I am starting back up in Magic with the actual physical product instead of just faceroll in Duels of the Planeswalker, specifically looking to jump in to EDH.

How the hell do you go about starting to build a deck for this?  I threw together a deck quickly based mostly in the cards we got out of a box of each of the Return to Ravnica block that we bought.  Suffice to say it sucked pretty hard. (Trying to make something generic Boros ish with a splash of other Red and White stuff with Tajic as Commander, was slow and sucked.  No way to accelerate at all)

I am wondering what your starting point really is?  I found it hard to sit with cards and try to craft something.  I would really like to be able to sit back and pick a few things as a starting point and then be able to work down from a macro level instead of being looking through a bunch of cards and trying to put together something coherent.

Do you find a hand full of cards that seem neat and blow out a bigger idea from there or do you make a big pile and then cut down from there?  Is there some kind of tool you can use to build things without doing it with physical cards?  I feel like I lose the forest for the trees there.
NO MORE POKEMON - Meeplelard.
The king perfect of the DL is and always will be Excal. - Superaielman
Don't worry, just jam it in anyway. - SirAlex
Gravellers are like, G-Unit - Trancey.

metroid composite

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Re: Theorycrafting! (Because I like competitive metagames too much)
« Reply #432 on: July 21, 2014, 04:37:57 PM »
So I can clearly see you invest a fair bit into this here, but want to ask some of the process anyway.

I am starting back up in Magic with the actual physical product instead of just faceroll in Duels of the Planeswalker, specifically looking to jump in to EDH.

How the hell do you go about starting to build a deck for this?  I threw together a deck quickly based mostly in the cards we got out of a box of each of the Return to Ravnica block that we bought.  Suffice to say it sucked pretty hard. (Trying to make something generic Boros ish with a splash of other Red and White stuff with Tajic as Commander, was slow and sucked.  No way to accelerate at all)

I am wondering what your starting point really is?  I found it hard to sit with cards and try to craft something.  I would really like to be able to sit back and pick a few things as a starting point and then be able to work down from a macro level instead of being looking through a bunch of cards and trying to put together something coherent.

Do you find a hand full of cards that seem neat and blow out a bigger idea from there or do you make a big pile and then cut down from there?  Is there some kind of tool you can use to build things without doing it with physical cards?  I feel like I lose the forest for the trees there.

Start with mana.  Most casual but decent EDH decks are basically ramp decks that want to be at least 50% mana...which often means 40 lands, and 10 mana rocks.  In red/white the good mana that's not banned or insanely rare would be like...

(tapping for 1)
Boros Signet[url=http://[url=http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=376296]Darksteel Ingot]
[url=http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=376296]Darksteel Ingot

Coldsteel Heart
Everflowing Chalice
Fellwar Stone
Fire Diamond
Marble Diamond
Mind Stone
Star Compass
(tapping for 2)
Sol Ring
Worn Powerstone (and even Ur-Golem's Eye I've seen in decklists, but it compares poorly to...)
(tapping for 3)
Thran Dynamo
Gilded Lotus
Dreamstone Hedron
(land search)
Land Tax
Gift of Estates
Knight of the White Orchid


But use what you can get your hands on obviously.  In Return to Ravnica there's a few options that are fine:

Boros Cluestone
Boros Keyrune
Chromatic Lantern

That said if you have a limited card pool, and are having trouble getting to 10 cards in your deck that ramp you, you might find that it's easier to put together a deck if you have green in it, since green has lots of "search your library for a basic land and put it into play" cards.  Like Cultivate and shit.



Other notes: it sounds like your deck is aggressive.  Aggressive decks tend not to be all that great, because you draw attention to yourself, and then if an opponent is holding a "destroy target creature" card, they might use it on you (instead of saving it for the person who hasn't played anything yet, who is probably actually a much bigger threat).  Red/white also tend to have trouble drawing cards, so it can find itself with an empty hand if you don't add some artifact drawing (but there is very little artifact card drawing, and it tends to be rare and expensive).


The rest of your deck doesn't matter too much/depends on what kind of decks you're facing.  If you have mana and card draw under control, you can probably just throw in a bunch of shit that looks cool, and some removal, and you'll be fine.  Depends how tryhard your opponents are, though.

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Re: Theorycrafting! (Because I like competitive metagames too much)
« Reply #433 on: July 22, 2014, 04:57:19 AM »
Thanks!  That is mostly stuff I had been forewarned of, but making a deck at 8 in the morning after going to bed at someone else' house doesn't make for a great deck.

I should have grabbed the clue stone and Guild rune thingo.  Did the noob mistake of forgetting that artifact mana is faster than an extra land in hand.

Suffice to say my older brother's U/G ramp deck worked a bit better than mine.

Neither worked as well as an old deck that my older brother built up to be an EDH deck that my younger brother played and stomped us both into the ground without getting hit.

Good draw, not getting mana issues and just a strong creature heavy R/G deck.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2014, 04:59:29 AM by Grefter »
NO MORE POKEMON - Meeplelard.
The king perfect of the DL is and always will be Excal. - Superaielman
Don't worry, just jam it in anyway. - SirAlex
Gravellers are like, G-Unit - Trancey.

metroid composite

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Re: Theorycrafting! (Because I like competitive metagames too much)
« Reply #434 on: August 03, 2014, 04:35:22 AM »
Ok, well, finally Went out and got some cards for this.  There were some "10 for $5" rare boxes, so I got a bunch of stuff there.  Some of which was not on my original list

Notably, $0.5 Thragtusk, and I wasn't able to find Pelakka Wurm.  You know for all that I think Pelakka Wurm is a slightly better teaching tool, I'm not crying over this.

Could not find Wall of Omens, but I did find Elvish Visionary; yeah ok whatever: same difference.

So...Somberwald Sage is a human (and I can't find Avacyn's Pilgrim; might just make that substitution...or run both)



And then there's the "maybes".  Cards I just found, and should perhaps consider including.

Biomantic Mastery--draw like...20 cards because it's EDH.
Momentary Blink--It's good and stuff.
Ranger's Path--not keen on the fact that it doesn't fix, but it's good.
Gallows at Willow Hill--LOLOLOL Human Tribal!  I picked it up thinking this was awesome.  Now I'm thinking it's probably too inconsistent.  It's still tempting though!
Sphinx of Uthun--A bit on the complex side.  On the other hand, I don't have a mulldrifter, so I guess this can sub in.
Reya Dawnbringer--relatively simple, and at least somewhat synergistic.
Captain of the watch--Was cut for being a bit on the complex side, but then again, Human, ETB effect...I wouldn't mind cutting, say, Priviliged Position for this or something.
Yavimaya Elder--I picked this up when I noticed that it was a human....  A little on the complex side, and no etb, but still.
Cultivate--You know, even though I didn't plan to put this into this deck, it'll go into something.
Reclamation Sage--certainly a card that wouldn't hurt.
Stormtide Leviathan--Big bad bomb; could squeeze it in.
Precursor Golem--funny with the Golem theme.  8 lines of text, but funny with the golem theme.
Terastodon--A little on the complex side, but can sub in for a bomb or removal or something.

metroid composite

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Re: Theorycrafting! (Because I like competitive metagames too much)
« Reply #435 on: August 04, 2014, 01:01:09 AM »
ASDF what?  Sensor Splicer, unlike the other 5 in the cycle, isn't a human.

OK, no, cutting that.  It was already the worst of the 5 by far.  By far.  The only one for which the power/toughness total is less than the casting cost.

I do want to squeeze in Gallows at Willow Hill.  It's probably kinda bad in the deck because there often won't be 3 humans.  It's probably a little on the complex side.  But goddamn the card oozes awesome.  It goes in for Sensor splicer.

Captain of the Watch goes in over Priviliged Position, with the logic of "Eh, I own one".  (Also human with good bounce effect--the downsides on it still stand but...)

Stormtide Leviathan goes in over Inkwell Leviathan.  "Eh, I own one."

Biomantic Mastery goes in over Soul of the Forest for two reasons.  One, draw 40 cards is a lot flashier and more exciting than ongoing card advantage.  Two Soul of the Forest has the whole memory issues.  (Also: "Eh, I own one")

Sphinx of Uthun temporarily subs in for Mulldrifter; it will be subbing out (it's debatable which one is better, but Mulldrifter is certainly simpler).

Reya Dawnbringer subs in for Boundless Realms.  "Eh, I own one." -- the questionableness of Boundless Realms has been brought up before, and there's now at least two mana sources that care about creatures (Elvish Piper and Somberwald Sage).  Also, I know I probably listed Reya as 6 lines of text, and Boundless as 4, but I think Boundless actually has more text.

Yavimaya Elder is tempting due to the human tag, but ultimately stays out--tons of lines of text, no bounce synergy....
« Last Edit: August 04, 2014, 01:03:22 AM by metroid composite »

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Re: Theorycrafting! (Because I like competitive metagames too much)
« Reply #436 on: August 04, 2014, 07:32:29 AM »
One quick substitution: I have the wrong wall of Blossoms.  I put in a Wall of Omens, actually, since most of the card draw and land fetching early on is in green and blue, so just in case you're stuck with white....

So...after some playtesting (goldfishing):

Card draw.  The deck is kind of short on it.  If I get a creature I can bounce for card draw, that's almost always my target, even if I have other nice targets.  If I don't have a card draw target I'm usually quite sad.

With this in mind, Soul of the Harvest goes back in (in exchange for Reya Dawnbringer).  I probably want more card draw on top of this, but we'll see.

EDIT: oh yeah, Consecrated Sphinx.  That thing that draws cards.  Yeah, the deck needs it enough that it's worth subbing in in exchange for...Stormtide Leviathan maybe?  Way more complicated than the other EDH bombs I'm running, so it goes.  Only reason I had it in there is "I own one."
« Last Edit: August 04, 2014, 10:06:10 AM by metroid composite »

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Re: Theorycrafting! (Because I like competitive metagames too much)
« Reply #437 on: August 05, 2014, 08:41:59 AM »
First testing of the new EDH deck wasn't that great.  The deck does start a bit slow, and we played a more aggressive format (star) and the two people playing against the deck got insanely fast starts.  (And one of them also unintentionally cheated I realized afterwards; had Pariah and Sword of Light and Shadow on the same creature at the same time).


But enough about that.  I will be drafting M15.  Strategy going in is as follows: Everything I've read going in suggests that Convoke is very good.  Triplicate Spirits in particular being described as the best common and very first-pickable.  Thing is, convoke cards tend to look bad on first reading, as people underestimate the mechanic.  (Triplicate Spirits doesn't look that great when I read it, and it's easy to assume "it's a common, I should probably be picking a rare").

Actually, from what I've seen, rares and uncommons are often not good in this set.  A bunch of the rares are dual lands.  A bunch of the uncommons are lifegain trinkets and underwhelming limited equipment (just because artifact = uncommon is some core set flavour rule or something).


EDIT: ok, so draft picks from the pro tour are on display, and this series of picks has me a little bit surprised:

http://gatherer.wizards.com/magic/draftools/draftviewer.asp?draftid=8_1_2014_1&player=7&pack=2&pick=1&showpick=false

Haunted Plate Mail goes 5th pick in this pack.  Which surprises me.  The stuff that goes before it...there are three paragons, two of which get picked before it (high priority picks if you're in the colour).  Krenkos Enforcer, which goes second pick--seems to be a wind drake variant, and a drake variant seems to be a big deal for red.  And there's Raise the Alarm, which is an excellent enabler for Convoke.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2014, 03:47:55 PM by metroid composite »

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Re: Theorycrafting! (Because I like competitive metagames too much)
« Reply #438 on: August 06, 2014, 09:11:21 AM »
Draft complete.

So like...I think overall this didn't go ideally.  I opened a blue bomb, so started out in blue, and then that dried up quickly but white looked super available, so moved into white and a little green.

Pack 2 I open the 7 mana garruk, decide that passing it is terrible because someone would wreck me, so I took it.  Then got passed...an artifact mythic (a slow sweeper) and...two more blue rares; took this as a pretty good sign I should be in blue.

Turns out the two people on my right were drafting blue.  (The one on my immediate right was drafting blue white because he had seen the same white signals I had pack one).

My deck is...so-so.  Like...the structure is ok--lots of 2 drops (4 3/1s for 2, which I'm sure will kill some mana screwed opponents).  3 and 4 drops are mostly removal, with one decent enchant creature.  5 mana has some overruns, and a draw 3 cards spell.  I only have four creatures that cost 4+ and they all have evasion (three are blatantly bombs).  Like...the structure of the deck seems solid enough.  But it's missing some of the killer cards.  None of the white/blue kird ape variant, for instance.  No triplicate spirits.  No Military intelligence.  No frost lynx, no divination, no welkin tern.  And the sideboard is super thin; I'd like to have a Negate, for instance.

That said, all in all I still think I have a pile of pretty good cards with a sensible mana curve and some bombs, and about as many combat tricks as I'm willing to run (because I hate having like an opening hand of four combat tricks and auras, because if I put four of them in my deck it's gonna happen), so overall I think I came out decent; should be able to at least beat a lot of the newbies, and shouldn't lose to dumb stuff like mana screw too often.  But hey, the guy next to me got three lightning strikes, two of the on-colour kird ape variant, an on-colour planeswalker, and just generally no real bad cards.  So I'm definitely going to be outclassed by a few decks.


Meanwhile, in EDH land...I remembered the "need more card draw, and preferably stuff that doesn't lock down Roon into only drawing cards" issue, and...then I realized Magus of the Future is a human with fairly simple text.  That goes in and...after some thinking the thing that comes out is...

Well...one change I made I didn't mention here--I took out Beast Within for an Oblivion Ring variant (Banishing Light), since I figured Beast Within is the kind of card new players tend not to like.  "Why would I want to give them a 3/3?"  But...Banishing Light is still 5 cards of text, which did take me a second reading when I first saw it before I was like "oh it's just Oblivion Ring", and I'm trying to spend my "complexity points" in areas like the Roon combos.  So...as much as cutting removal is always dubious from a deck power-level standpoint, I think I am cutting removal.  Everything in the bombs section has a really good reason to be there.  I'm not cutting ramp, if anything one of the reasons I'd like more card draw is to help with the "some of these cards cost 10, and when you can't cheat on them that means getting 10 lands".  I'm not cutting humans.  Most of the non-human bounce cards that haven't been cut are really noteworthy (Clone and Sower of Temptation are the only ones I hesitated on, and they're both quite sexy and quite simple).  So...really that left Banishing Light as a card I had mild reservations on.  At any rate, cutting removal for card draw doesn't even necessarily mean the player will get less removal because they might draw it, so....  (Granted, I could just cut Gallows instead, being the considerably worse card, but it's still quite cool).


EDIT: ok, now when I goldfish the deck, it combos out and draws half the deck several games in a row.  I may have overdone it...but then again, maybe not; the deck isn't supposed to be piloted by me, it's meant to be piloted by newbies, and it will go up against decks with removal.

EDIT 2: did several more tests and it went completely out of control in maybe one of them, so perhaps that edit was premature.  Even in these tests I do feel like it's more reliably getting somewhere, even if I'm not drawing mass card draw I'll, say, successfully cast Storm Herd on turn 8 or Blatant Thievery twice or whatever.  (So if I'm not drawing big card draw at this point, then I'm drawing more of the small card draw or ramp spells).  Regardless, I don't think the amount of card draw is overkill.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2014, 04:40:12 PM by metroid composite »

metroid composite

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Re: Theorycrafting! (Because I like competitive metagames too much)
« Reply #439 on: September 14, 2014, 05:19:11 PM »
So...I've been thinking about what the best magic the gathering creature is at each converted mana cost.  Here's what I've got so far:



0 mana: Ornithopter

The list of 1 mana creatures is pretty short, and really there's only two real options here: Ornithopter and Memnite.  And...there are some decks that run both right now in Modern, but they seem to run more copies of Ornithopter usually.  Flying is good.  Especially when you combine it with Cranial Plating or Ensoul Artifact or lots of counters off of an Arcbound Ravager.

1 mana: Delver of Secrets

There's definitely some competition for this slot.  Some fantastically good mana production like Noble Hierarch.  Some just very powerful effects like Mother of Runes.  There's only one 1 mana creature banned in Modern right now, and it's Deathrite Shaman (because it is good at making mana, and also warps the meta by killing several strategies).  Delver is still just so standout in terms of stats and a multi-format all-star, that people seem to agree with it being the best.

2 mana: Stoneforge Mystic

To give you an idea of what this can search up, it can search up Batterskull and then put a 4/4 life gaining, vigilance creature into play for 2 mana at instant speed.  Or it can search up equipment, some of which is just very powerful like Sword of Fire and Ice, some of which is part of an infinite combo like Sword of the Meek.  And when you use its ability to put this equipment into play, it comes in at instant speed and they can't counter it.

There is a lot of competition for the 2 mana slot, though.  Banned in Legaccy you have Goblin Recruiter and Hermit Druid.  The problem I have with these is that they weren't good when the were new, and don't even go into most decks.  But after that, there's still a collection of multi-format allstars.  Stoneforge Mystic.  Tarmogoyf.  Dark Confidant.  Snapcaster Mage.  Arcbound Ravager.  Scavenging Ooze.  Of these...Arcbound Ravager and Stoneforge Mystic both got banned in Standard.  Stoneforge Mystic is also banned in Modern right now, though, and played in pretty much every Legacy deck running white.  There's also a decent argument for Tarmogoyf, which has been ubiquitous and oppressive in just about every format, but you know, it didn't even dominate its own Standard format for all that long, because Faeries came along.

3 mana: Metalworker

Let's take a moment to talk about Metalworker.  Actually, pause for a moment and look at Somberwald Sage instead.  Somberwald Sage is considered a good card, and gets played in constructed.  Creature only mana is probably a bigger restriction than colourless.  So...really, to be getting good value out of Metalworker, you really only need to tap for 4 mana.  Having enough artifacts to get 2 artifacts in your hand (making 4 mana) usually is not really that hard.  Of course, the dedicated artifact decks do terrifying things with this card, tapping for 12 and such.

As for other options, 3 mana isn't really where the busted cards live.  There's an argument for Vendilion Clique, as that goes into lots and lots of decks--pretty good clock with evasion, and gets a big threat out of your opponent's hand.  True Name Nemesis also exists, but I'm not sure I want to count it, given that they knew it was good, and that's why they made sure it was never legal in standard or modern.

4 mana: Bloodbraid Elf

I don't think there's any real debate about this one.  It was never banned in Standard, but there were pro events where all 8 decks in the top 8 were running four of these (full 32 Bloodbraid Elves!)  It is banned in Modern.

You get a free spell, AND a body that honestly isn't even all that unreasonable for a 4 mana creature.  (4/3 haste is straight up good at 4 mana, so 3/2 haste with nothing would be...probably not in tournament decks, but not awful).

5 mana: Thragtusk

So this is an interesting one, as we're now in the range where I don't think a 5 mana creature has ever been banned in any format.

But I think I'm going to go with Thragtusk barring further arguments.  Thragtusk showed up in an era of very strong 5 mana creatures in green.  Kessig Cagebreakers which won if you untapped with them.  Sigara which was near impossible to kill.  Wolfir Silverheart which was essentially 12/12 worth of power for 5 mana.  And it made them all look bad, and became the definitive 5 drop in green.  There's not really much you can do against it.  Kill it?  Ok, they still got a 3/3 and 5 life out of the deal.  Exile it?  Bounce it?  Same thing; you always get full value.  But on the flip side, if you're the one controlling it, you can do ridiculously abusive things with it.  Restoration Angel yes I would like a surprise free 5 life and bonus 3/3.  Deadeye Navigator actually I'd like to do that 3 times per turn.

Derranged Hermit is also a very strong candidate.  It's a card they've thought about reprinting a few times, only to realize that it was actually way too broken.  It's a card that...the very first time I drafted a Cube, I died to this card.  So...next time I drafted a Cube, I first picked this (probably over some P9 card) and then proceeded to win every match.  Afterward we discussed it, and noted that Grave Titan was also in the Draft, but my friend pointed out that wouldn't be as deadly--he could, say, control magic on the Grave Titan, and be just fine.  That did nothing against Hermit.  What does work though?  Is more hermits, since they pump each other.

Baneslayer Angel was also the terror of Standard for a very long time, even if it never really made the jump to eternal formats.  It can and does just plain die if you kill it.  But if you don't, 10 point lifeswings every turn.

There is, however, also an argument for Kiki-Jiki.  Now, Kiki-Jiki when it was legal in Standard was quirky, not played in very many decks at all.  (People would play it in Tooth and Nail decks to fetch out alongside Sundering Titan).  But it has been a very persistent combo piece.  A frequent subject of scruitiny in EDH.  The only 5 mana creature that gets played in Modern right now, because as soon as it was out of Standard, infinite combos got printed for it--the popular one right now being Restoration Angel (which itself is a very strong card, so you don't mind running it).  That said, derranged hermit is too old to be legal in Modern, so it's hard to say "See?  Kiki-Jiki is better."

6 mana: Primeval Titan

There are a lot of ridiculous 6 drops, but fortunately they were all in standard at the same time, so it's really quite simple to pick out the best.  Primeval Titan was consistently considered the best of the Titan (all 7 of them; I'm counting Consecrated Sphinx and Wurmcoil Engine as Titans here).  It straight up got itself banned in EDH.  The combos and lands it goes for change--first it was Valakut, then it was Wolf Run, in more eternal formats it might be Cabal Coffers and Urbog, Tomb of Yawgmoth.

7 mana: Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite

You know, there's some competition here.  Angel of Serenity represents a lot of removal.  Or Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite, which both kills your opponents stuff AND makes it so that they need to deal with it before they play any new stuff.  Palinchron does kind-of scream infinite mana abuse.  (Not a bad control creature either; play it, and still have counter mana up, and have the mana available to bounce it if they try to kill it).

Snowfire has made a decent argument for Elesh Norn, though.  It's usually the top reanimation choice at this cost, it's a fine hardcast, and you don't really need to specialize your deck at all for it, unlike, say, Palinchron.

8 mana: Grislebrand

So like...let's make a necropotence that can also heal the life back and kill the opponent.  This very quickly became arguably the best reanimation target, banned in commander, etc etc.

There are some very good 8 mana cards (mostly a lot of big giant things with haste--if you can cheat multiple creatures into play, those become good because they just deal 20 damage).  But this seems like the overall strongest despite not being part of the haste party.

9 mana: Iona, Shield of Emeria

Oh, I'm sorry, did you want to play spells?


And...once we get to 10 mana, the winner becomes really unclear.  Jin-Gitaxias goes into reanimator decks.  And Progenitus goes into Natural Order decks.  They don't really compete head to head for the same deck space.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2014, 10:53:26 PM by metroid composite »

Luther Lansfeld

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Re: Theorycrafting! (Because I like competitive metagames too much)
« Reply #440 on: September 14, 2014, 07:45:35 PM »
Deranged Hermit is amazing because it summons squirrels to destroy the world~
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SnowFire

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Re: Theorycrafting! (Because I like competitive metagames too much)
« Reply #441 on: September 14, 2014, 08:28:16 PM »
FWIW: Your even casting costs sounds good.  Ornithopter, Stoneforge Mystic, Bloodbraid Elf, Primeval Titan, Gristles, & Iona all seem the best (although Primeval's got a lot of competition, and Iona's 9 is odd).  Delver....  hmm, fine, it does set up a flying clock way faster than usual, but it also warps deck construction.  But I can't think of something clearly better - Wild Nacatl might be comparable, but not clear that it's "better," and you already mentioned Hierarch.  Disciple of the Vault, perhaps?  Same issue as Delver in restricting deck construction, but even more so.   3cc - well legacy nod first to Hypnotic Specter for being uber-broken and above the curve for the old creature power scale, even if it isn't as crazy now.  Psychatog has also seen its time pass.  Hmm, really feels like there should be better stuff than Metalworker - which is broken but nicely waits until next turn to be broken.  5cc - Hermit is crazy, yes, but it's also 10 mana!  I'd definitely lean more toward Baneslayer here.  There's some other solid combo pieces to mention like Reveliark at this level, too.  7cc, Palinchron is just your average "combo & win" in the right deck piece, doesn't seem much more special to me than lots of competition on that (Angel of Glory's Rise!).  The fact it isn't amazing if you aren't doing the combo really cuts against it, Elesh Norn should easily beat it (if you 'combo' it via Reanimation, you should win, and she's a solid hardcast), and I'm not even sure Elesh Norn should take this anyway.  There's Myr Enforcer, but that's not really 7cc and isn't really even played in modern Affinity.  Hmm..  there's not that many 7cc creatures out there...  I think Elesh Norn wins this after all to me, lots of critters that are potentially "you win next turn" but Elesh immediately wins the game vs. creature decks, and is still solid vs. control.

At the 10cc slot, there's also that Eldrazi for competition, but the 10cc slot & up are kinda silly, you're already either cheating them into play or having some kind of absurd mana engine for them to not be blank cards.

metroid composite

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Re: Theorycrafting! (Because I like competitive metagames too much)
« Reply #442 on: September 14, 2014, 09:53:30 PM »
Yeah, there's definitely some slots that are straightforward, and some slots that are iffy.

1cc there are manadorks, and there are creatures that can be big but are conditional.  Nimble Mongoose I guess is another one, that continues to be relevant in Legacy.  The biggest they get is 3/3.  a 3/2 flyer is...pretty much the best stats, barring perhaps 3/3 shroud.  I dunno, I don't have really strong opinions on 1cc.

My friend had a decent argument for Tarmogoyf at 2cmc just because it's incredibly ubiquitous.  if you're running green...and you're not a specialized deck in some way like poison or Birthing Pod, then you put goyf in the deck.  My counterargument was that Mystic is similarly ubiquitous in Legacy, since you only really need to dedicate about 2 slots to equipment to slot it into every white deck.  Pretty much every white deck has Mystic.

3cc...like I said, I'm pretty sure Vendilion Clique is probably the best competition to Metalworker.  It shows up in lots of decks in both Modern and Legacy, sometimes as the only creature.  The only other competition...if you want to get into combos you can start talking about Deceiver Exarch and Pestermite.  But they go into one deck because of a combo with one card.  And I don't think any of these have ever really been on the table for banning in a format.

5cc...The problem with Baneslayer Angel is that you can just kill it.  Got a Doom Blade?  Ok, cool, it's dead, and now you spent 5cmc, and your opponent spent 2cmc.  This, incidentally, was a weakness of the card in Standard as well, which is why decks that ran BSA would typically run about 33 or so creatures, many of them large, in the hopes that you would run out of removal by the time BSA dropped.  It's a creature that doesn't obviously need a lot of support, but realistically does need quite a bit of support.  Unless it's up against a red deck, because red hates lifegain and struggles to kill 5 toughness creatures.

Let's see...last pro tour of standard where BSA was legal...was right after Mirrodin Beseiged

http://archive.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/ptpar11/top8/decklists

There's actually 0 maindeck BSAs.  A few in sideboards (6 across all 8 decks).  Note that there are maindeck Sun Titans and Wurmcoil Engines in the same top 8, so it's not like the format didn't support expensive creatures.

Ok, but that was the height of Jace/Stoneforge Mystic dominance, what about post banning?

http://archive.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/gppit11/welcome#0

Zero baneslayers, not even in the sideboard.  And like...it is legal; there are zendikar cards there, therefore it's still legal.  And people are running 4 mana white cards like Hero of Bladehold and Emeria Angel, and 6 mana white cards like Sun Titan.

Alright...what about the previous year...worlds 2010:

http://archive.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/worlds10/decks/top8

Very blue/black control dominated.  There is one player in the top 8 with 3 maindeck baneslayers as his only creatures, though!

Earlier in 2010, pre-rotation:

http://archive.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/ptsd10/top8decks

Again, white wasn't super strong.  One deck is running 4-of BSA, though, and another has BSA as 2-of in the sideboard.  There is a third white/blue/black deck that could run it but has 5-drop Sphinx of Lost Truths instead.


I dunno...with BSA we're talking about a card that was....good, but not always played even in standard, even in decks that ran white and could afford it.  That might still be the best 5 drop, but I feel like there's probably going to be a better pick.


Reveillark...is a thought.  Mostly I skipped over it, because BSA was almost universally considered better than Reveillark when BSA came out (and most lark decks quietly exited from the metagame to make way for BSA builds).  Same reason I didn't really mention Demigod of Revenge, even though it's definitely good and saw some play, it did get overshadowed by BSA.

I do still think there is a reasonable argument for Kiki-Jiki, though.  Relevant and played in Modern, and it's kind-of in the "danger watch list" for EDH.

I dunno, still open to arguemnts here.


7cc...yeah, I could switch this to Elesh Norn.  She is a personal favourite of mine.  Although I will say, if my opponent says "I'm running Elesh Norn" I'd probably be like "cool".  If my opponent says "I'm running Palinchron", I'm probably thinking "this guy's a jerk."  That makes me think Palinchron might be better of the two.


10cc...The 10cc Eldrazi is Kozilek, who really isn't that good.  Ulamog was good at 11cc (and hardcasted).  Emrakul of course was good at 15cc.  But people didn't really run Kozilek.  They actually ran the 9cc Artisan of Kozilek instead (which revives a creature on cast).

metroid composite

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Re: Theorycrafting! (Because I like competitive metagames too much)
« Reply #443 on: September 14, 2014, 10:44:17 PM »
Ok, hold on, let me make sure I'm not missing something obvious for 5 cmc

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=338406
Golgari Grave-Troll

It's good in dredge, nowhere else.  If we're kicking other cards for being too narrow, should probably kick this too.

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=382950
Genesis

...Ehh, it's like an enchantment that sits in your graveyard.  Whatever.

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=193751
Siege-Gang Commander

It's good.  It got reprinted a lot, and used in standard almost every time.  (It got played in the busted Jund decks of yore, so...yeah, the quality of the card is very high).  Notably, though, they reprinted this a lot, but also said that Derranged Hermit was way too fucking broken to reprint, so...yeah.

Morphling, Sliver Queen, Spiritmonger:

Pretty sure the quality has gone up since then.  I remember Spiritmonger being unable to keep up with Kamigawa legends in Extended back in 2005, so...yeah.

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=215098
Kudotha Forgemaster

This dude gets played in Legacy.  Anywhere where it is legal, Blightsteel Colossus is also legal.  I...could see arguments for this.  I'm a bit wary, though, because it wasn't really a big deal in Standard.  It saw fringe play, but yeah.

Meloku and Kiki-jiki I've mentioned already

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=376446
Phyrexian Delver

I find this one really hard to evaluate.  Would be potentially gross today, since 5 mana sorcery is roughly the cost of reanimation, and there's lots of ways to flicker to get even more out of it.  But there's also cheaper reanimation if you go into older sets...like the era this card came from.  So....

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=370535
Mulldrifter

I...yeah ok, I can see this as a real candidate.... >_>

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=244667
Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir

I could see arguments for this, too.  It did pretty much define standard.

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=253700
Thundermaw Hellkite

Oh yeah, how could I forget about this guy?  "We're sorry for taking away Baneslayer Angel, here have something arguably more powerful."


Stuff that is really effing big, like this guy
http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=240090
And this guy
http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=177922
And your friendly neighborhood 8/8 trample for 5
http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=370766

Prolly not

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=240033
Sigara, Host of herons

Hmmm...I'd need to do some research, I forget how good she turned out to be.

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=249685
Thragtusk

Actually..........yeah, Thragtusk is a pretty serious option.  There were some very good 5 drops at the time (Wolfir Silverheart etc) and Thragtusk made everyone forget that they even existed. 

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=185751
Sphinx of Lost Truths

This one doesn't get talked about much, but it was used a ton.

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=240082
Zealous Conscripts

Good on their own, and completely abusive with certain cards like Deadeye Navigator.  I...feel like it won't be these but they're actually probably close to the top.

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=48436
Arc Slogger

So like...if you untap with this in mono-red you do kind-of win, since you can generally deal 8 damage to their face and/or creatures.

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=249868
Kessig Cagebreakers

Speaking of cards you win with if you untap with them (though this does fall into the category of "and then Thragtusk outshone them")

Big stupid Orzhov shit
http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=368954
Blood Baron of Visopka
http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=366246
Obzedat, Ghost Council

These probably should be given some consideration; they've stayed a constant force for a long time in standard; they're hard to kill and represent a ton of lifeswing.

Mmmm...ok, I think I might go with Thragtusk for now.  No real question the quality on that card eclipsed a bunch of other already good cards.

SnowFire

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Re: Theorycrafting! (Because I like competitive metagames too much)
« Reply #444 on: September 14, 2014, 11:10:16 PM »
Both Thragtusk & Grave-Troll are pretty legit 5cc critters, yeah, although Grave-Troll is weird in that half its value isn't in the creature itself.  I can get behind hyping Thragtusk over BSA, it showed up absolutely everywhere while it was legal and they had to print special anti-Thragtusk tech to deal with it in standard.  (I can't recall what that card was, though...  ugh.)  As you point out, any large creature isn't amazing in a heavy-control environment, while Thragtusk manages to be amazing vs. both aggro AND control.  The stupid Orzhov 5cc stuff from Return to Ravnica are good but somewhat restricted by casting cost, so they feel "solid for Standard, not gonna matter in other formats."

metroid composite

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Re: Theorycrafting! (Because I like competitive metagames too much)
« Reply #445 on: September 15, 2014, 12:27:12 AM »
Quote
although Grave-Troll is weird in that half its value isn't in the creature itself.

Troll was also not that relevant in Standard.  Kamigawa-Ravnica standard was like...gifts ungiven, and Selesnia, and Blue green value creatures.  And I guess Gruul beats.  None of those really bothered with Troll.

and they had to print special anti-Thragtusk tech to deal with it in standard.  (I can't recall what that card was, though...  ugh.)

Wait....how DO you print anti-Thragtusk tech.  I'm trying to figure out what this card would even be....

Skullcrack?
Olivia Volarden?
Zealous Conscripts+ sac outlets???
Boros Reckoner?

Actually, maybe boros reckoner.  First strikes down the Thragtusk, and then first strikes down the 3/3.

Quote
The stupid Orzhov 5cc stuff from Return to Ravnica are good but somewhat restricted by casting cost, so they feel "solid for Standard, not gonna matter in other formats."

Yeah, also they were legal alongside Thragtusk for a while.  Thragtusk still got played more from what I'm looking at.

metroid composite

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Re: Theorycrafting! (Because I like competitive metagames too much)
« Reply #446 on: September 15, 2014, 09:00:39 AM »
So...in the 1cmc slot...I've overlooked Goblin Welder

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=13001

It's...completely bonkers.  Reanimation at the cost of a tap and an artifact.  But...it's also not getting a whole lot of play right now, which makes me hesitate to immediately pick it.  Is there just too much graveyard hate right now?

metroid composite

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Re: Theorycrafting! (Because I like competitive metagames too much)
« Reply #447 on: September 24, 2014, 06:40:12 AM »
Figured out what the card printed was that was supposed to counter Thragtusk.  Lifebane Zombie!

Also, while we're on the subject:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SET5gGC128M

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Re: Theorycrafting! (Because I like competitive metagames too much)
« Reply #448 on: September 24, 2014, 11:45:21 PM »
Tossing in a few things that weren't mentioned on the listings...

Dryad Arbor pops out of fetchlands and Green Sun's Zenith for 0 to do work in several decks.  Doesn't get as much play as it probably should, but on the other hand the 0 artifact creatures only go in one deck.

Goblin Guide is the best 1 drop in a variety of aggressive decks that live or die by their 1 drops.

According to the Northwest Vintage Rotisserie Draft statistics, Thada Adel, Acquisitor is slightly over V-Clique as the best 3 drop >_>!   Runners up after that are Trinket Mage and Metalworker.  2 drops go in the order Dark Confidant, Painter's Servant, Snapcaster Mage, Vampire Hexmage, Stoneforge Mystic and then discard guys.  1 drops, interestingly, do have Goblin Welder in first place, with nothing else even remotely close to it.

Lodestone Golem provides some competition in the 4 slot.  Bloodbraid Elf dominated Standard and Modern, but it and Jund fall off a lot in Legacy and and is almost unheard of in Vintage, whereas Lodestone Golem is one of the key cards that make Mud/Stax/Shops a legitimate archetype in the highest power formats.


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Re: Theorycrafting! (Because I like competitive metagames too much)
« Reply #449 on: September 27, 2014, 06:50:39 PM »
I did forget about Dryad Arbor!  I'm...not sure if I count it or not, as it isn't really 0 cost (it costs you a land drop, and doesn't tap for mana when you play it, so you do end up using mana on it).  Like...forest Llanowar Elf is nearly always a better play than Dryad Arbor.

Goblin Guide was good in Standard; I don't remember seeing a lot of it in older formats.  I feel like it's designed to punish decks that are slow in standard, but if it goes up against a similar speed deck, it's really not that great because it gives them cards.

Thada Adel, Aquisitor...so the issue I have with this card is that as far as I know, nobody played it in Standard, nobody plays it in Modern, nobody plays it in Legacy.  It's cool in Vintage because you can steal moxes that every deck runs.  It's like...Gorilla Shaman is really good in Vintage, but not a big deal anywhere else.

Your link seems to be some kind of draft format, with pick order.  It doesn't surprise me that Metalworker is not the most-chosen 3 drop.  (Still 4th, behind Trinket mage, clique, and Thada).

The real surprise to me is how low Tarmogoyf is in picks.  I guess the decks aren't guaranteed a lot of fetchlands, so that makes it worse?  Painter's Servant being as high as it is in a draft format is actually quite surprising to me; it has value in two or three combos, but if you don't draft the combo it's a dead card.  Same for hexmage.  Same for stoneforge mystic (looks like there's...three pieces of equipment in the draft?)  So yeah, Does not surprise me to see Confidant at the top, since it doesn't require any combo pieces.  Snapcaster mage also works in almost every deck.