Back to vanilla FFT ban-a-thon thoughts.
1. Calculator
2. Chemist
3. Summoner
4. Wizard
5. Time Mage
6. Priest
7. Squire
8. Lancer
9. Oracle
10. Geomancer
11. Monk
12. Ninja
13. Knight
14. Archer
15. Mediator
16. Samurai
17. Dancer
18. Thief
19. Bard
20. Mime
OK, revisiting this after just playing a bunch of LFT.
1st-6th are probably fine, not thinking about those too hard.
Is Squire 7th? Is there a way Lancer could be higher than Gained JP Up and Move+1? Ehh...no, I think it's still Squire, there are still a lot of good builds at that point, and they're pretty much all JP hungry.
Squire 7thIs Lancer still 8th? Ahead of Oracle? Oracle helps a little more in Chapter 1--you may not have a lot of actual oracles, but I think Yin Yang might actually be the secondary on some characters--just gives range options. Although eh, you could be unlocking some Geo elementals instead which also gives range options. This isn't on the same level as Haste or Raise, where the difference between having these and not having these as secondaries is big. Lancer gets good earlier in chapter 2, and might actually just stay more powerful throughout the game except against zodiac demons where Life Drain is better (Lancer still very good against zodiacs to be clear, baiting spells and jumping is good). The key SCC weakness of lancers is negated here, cause you get to switch to a class with thief hats and smash fast enemies like balk and hashmallum.
Admitedly you're probably not going like...four lancers, cause you don't want four thieves in chapter 1, and also Gaffy and Agrias only have two good sets of armour to take. But I don't think you're going four of anything else either. (Four oracles probably not the play--obviously would be good eventually, but the early chapters look like the hard part. Four monks will struggle in chapter 2, four geomancers fine in chapter 2 but just seems like it would want a better lategame plan, four ninja builds have an even bigger problem with needing quality Thief time).
I do think two Lancers to take advantage of the gear is pretty reasonable, though. And JP requirements on lancers are fairly modest, like Level Jump 8 happening in Chapter 2 sounds like it would still happen even without Gained JP Up, and getting out of lancer doesn't need to happen for quite a while.
Geos admittedly are also very good chapter 2 classes once the MA gear shows up, as are oracles. But those do come a little later in the chapter, and probably still less impressive than a 200 HP unit that jumps for like...108 damage. Yeah, Lancer probably still okay 8th.
8. LancerAnd with that out of the way, I think it has to be Oracle over Geo. Yin Yang with stuff like Paralyze competes for some of the same niche as elemental (useful option when you want to stay at range). Life Drain probably the better boss killer than Attack Up. Getting spillover JP to the party for Defence Up is legit.
9. OracleAnd yeah, having just seen Monk (admitedly in LFT) from Chapter 1 through the end of Chapter 4, yeah, remaining not that impressed. So many enemies immune to earth slash. Slightly hilly terrain still a problem. Especially with no MP-using classes left (Chakra MP battery was one of the more impressive things a Monk can do). So...targeting Chapter 2 and late Chapter 1 with Geo still looks good. Last great Chapter 2 Wizard Robe abuser.
10. GeomancerThinking over my logic again, I remember needing to split up the dream team of equip armour Monk, cause that's the one remaining way to really benefit from equipment in chapter 2, and there's no real downside to it with all the other good support abilities banned. And if you get over the hump of Chapter 2 and early Chapter 3, Monks can cruise once they get Power Sleeve, so the build has a real long-term plan. Ninjas obviously good once unlocked, but Chapter 2 (and Chapter 1) looking like pain points here.
Is there ever a world where it's Knight here and not Monk? Eh...no way right?
Well...hold on, hitting Knight hits chapter 1 very hard as well, as Knight is the best remaining class there. Like...Monk is okay in Chapter 1, but no hats, no shields. And Monks basically suffer throughout the whole of Chapter 2. To the point that I'm maybe just abandoning the Monk plan and going to Ninja instead, or mediator for guns. And Knight actually has relevant RSM for Ninja in the form of Equip Sword. And...equip shield not bad on a Mediator either. And actually speed break on mediators might be a real answer to some zodiacs.
So...what does monk actually offer? It offers some quality of life lategame. A revival option, eventually, but not early, and a mediocre revival option. Eventually one dedicated monk will get HP Restore spillover for the whole party.
Um...ok, I need to think about this. Is Equip Sword actually better on a Ninja than Martial Arts for fights where Concentrate isn't desired? Tossing in some Ninja numbers...depends on gear. (Like level 16-22 Ninjas against Velius with a Power Sleeve but no other PA boosting gear have 10 PA. So 105 damage with martial arts, and 120 damage with Platina Swords). But that said, toss on a twist headband and the damage is the same (144 for both).
How good is speed breaking? Like...maybe good on specifically Altima and no other fight cause damage is still fairly high. Nice for gun users like mediators against zodiacs if you don't get elemental guns, I guess, as they aren't hitting that hard, but speed breaking with ninjas sounds dubious.
So I mean, ok, lategame contributions of Knight still sketchy compared to the competition. Mediators probably like them most (equip shield, speed break).
That said, still very much considering this, as like...you probably want knights in chapter 1 to support the people going through bad classes like Thief, and it's not wasted JP either, they have abilities that...maybe aren't that special, but can be learned and improve characters, and by the time the monk is giving HP restore from spillover and learning Revive you are probably stomping things anyway, like you could have Concentrate Move+2 Ninjas by that point I'm pretty sure.
Yeah, sure, kneecap people in Chapter 1 where they're weakest.
KnightSo...ok, obviously Ninja is still on the table for next. Monk is also still on the table for next for many of the same reasons as before (last remaining revival, getting the party HP restore from spillover). But also, Monk is the one remaining early class with damage (the other early classes left for Chapter 1 are Dagger Thieves, Dagger Mediators, and Archers).
Huh. Is there a world where it's correct to hit Archer here and not Monk or Ninja?
How much damage does Archer deal with a long bow in chapter 1? Sounds like 20, starting after Sand Rat Cellar. Raising to 25 with silver bows at Lenalia Plateau. Wave Fist is 36, of course, but...300 JP in Chapter 1 in a class you don't unlock for a few fights is not nothing, like...you'll get that towards the end of the chapter. And less range on a class with less HP, of course. What about handling Sand Rat Cellar before longbows? The bow gun will deal 15, but I think importantly, it has 4 range so 3 move enemy knights will actually walk into it, letting you shoot and walk backwards. Even if you had Wave Fist by this fight (which you probably wouldn't) the 3 range wouldn't let you do that.
So...ok, Archers definitely have a case for carrying the party more than Monk in chapter 1. Monk certainly offers things too (that 36 damage!) but more range earlier is nice.
And Archer is actually offering impactful things to several builds. Gun using mediators care about charge. Ninjas care about Concentrate. Monks also care about Concentrate.
Lacking Monk will hurt a bit later, due to no Revive and no HP restore, but I think you're in pretty good shape once you have Ninjas with Move+2 and concentrate, and Mediators with Charge. And abandon and sunken state are fine HP restore replacements so like...mostly not having revival, but the blitz power of that Ninja build is probably plenty.
Knocking out Ninja is also reasonable here, as there's not a huge power level difference between Chapter 1 Monk and Chapter 1 Archer, but there is a large power level difference between Ninja and everything else when you get Ninja.
So...feeling like Archer vs Ninja?
Losing Archer obviously hurts in Chapters 1 and 2. Losing concentrate mostly makes you suffer against non-bosses, but ehh...those can get bulldozed by stuff like dance, and Sunken State exists as ghetto concentrate.
Archers have arrow guard and I respect it, but there are so many other good reactions (including the previously mentioned HP Restore).
Yeah, feels like this is actually Ninja.
12. NinjaSo...ok, let's just list out what is left
Monk, Dancer, Bard, Archer, Mediator, Samurai, Thief, Mime
I am certainly thinking about charge guns at this point. And maybe Monk finally, they still have revival, and now some of the best blitz damage.
Equip Gun Archer with punch art for revive and stigma magic sounds reasonable. Just building a monk also sounds reasonable, maybe ending up in Archer with Martial Arts secondary, or in Monk with Concentrate. Arrow Guard and HP Restore both good reactions.
I think it's going to for sure be one of Monk or Archer. Just the two classes that aren't pathetic in chapter 1, while playing different roles. (Mediator is pathetic in Chapter 1).
So like...I intuitively feel like this really ought to be Monk. They're just generically seen as a good class, and Archers are generically seen as a bad class.
The thing that's making me hesitate on just slamming Monk is that like...I'm kind of feeling like Archers probably bring a bit more to Chapter 1, a bit better at handling Sand Rat Cellar, and Monks are really suffering from gear woes in Chapter 2. But surely the long term must be better for Monk? And like...yeah I think it is, but Mediator SCC kinda stomps most of the game pretty good once it gets guns, and add charge and shields and arrow guard, and you can slap equip gun on people while they unlock Bard and Dancer and Samurai for whatever you want out of those classes, and man, that really doesn't sound all that bad. Archer just seems like it flows better into the remaining classes.
I guess Archer is also now the one remaining way to get a shield. Which matters for like Balk fights, and not too much else. White robes are also decent for those fights (but those are now only available on Mediator and Samurai, and if you ban Archer, then Mediator drops in value a notable amount).
Let's see...I think Archers are better in Chapter 1 (though not by a lot, I just value the 4-5 range), worse for Zaland/Barius Hill in Chapter 2 (monks only need to get to level 5 for 7 PA, and Power Wrist shows up after Zirekile Falls, bringing that up to 8 PA for 60 damage wave fist, whereas Archers are still looking at 5 WP here, so like 30 damage--longer range and higher HP of course), worse for the next four fights that matter in Chapter 2 cause Romanda Guns are storebought. Chapter 3 I think Archers are ahead until Bracer (even with power sleeve, monk's hitting like 10 PA, so like 90 damage wave fist. Yeah, give me Mythril Gun over that--64 damage base, and charge+3 brings that to like 88. With 8 range instead of 3 and no chance to miss).
And then bracers surely put Monks ahead for the last four fights of chapter 3, and then earth clothes as well in chapter 4 for earth healing, and also somewhere around part way through Chapter 3 Monks start having revival for emergencies.
But in terms of how much of the game each class is better, this is a surprisingly even split.
The numbers gap is going to be quite wide in Chapter 4 and late Chapter 3, so that's one argument to break the tie towards Monk. But Archer routes will still have the range edge and the option of shields and the ignore evade edge (against earth immune enemies only, since earth slash is ITE, but there's lots of earth immune enemies), and the edge in terms of portability (Equip Gun+Charge unlocking bard/dancer/samurai much more comfortably than martial arts+punch art).
I...feel like I'm leaning Archer here?
13. ArcherMonk is definitely going to be next. Only remaining early accessible class that isn't reduced to daggers in Chapter 1, unlike mediator and thief. Actually has a good reaction in HP Restore--Arrow Guard was also good, but Archer gone now. Once one of Archer/Monk is banned, the other almost certainly goes.
14. MonkAnd at this point 15-20 will probably all be the same, so list with these changes now looks like...
1. Calculator
2. Chemist
3. Summoner
4. Wizard
5. Time Mage
6. Priest
7. Squire
8. Lancer
9. Oracle
10. Geomancer
11. Knight
12. Ninja
13. Archer
14. Monk
15. Mediator
16. Samurai
17. Dancer
18. Thief
19. Bard
20. Mime