Author Topic: Theorycrafting! (Because I like competitive metagames too much)  (Read 133419 times)

metroid composite

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You know...every once in a while I analyze the metagame for Starcraft or Magic the Gathering or Pokemon or Advance Wars.  I don't always have anywhere to put my thoughts (and notably, some of these communities will flame you off the board for theorymoning/theorycrafting/etc...and not without reason--it's easy to overlook stuff when you theorize).  But I just happen to find theory fun, so as long as I'm entertaining myself by theorizing, I may as well store my thoughts somewhere.  And the DL seems like the place that would most appreciate analysis just for the sake of analysis.


So...without further ado, I'm kicking this off with...Pokemon:



Garchomp


Garchomp was banned from Standard play (i.e., declared an Uber) in September 2008.  The question that interests me is analyzing why.  When I first saw the ban, my thoughts were "but...but... it's a non-legendary with a three stage evolution and it's not completely weird like Wobuffet!  How could it be Uber?"  Well...let's actually look at the numbers.  What are the statistical differences between Garchomp and, say, the similar Salmence (which has remained legal for standard play).

BST
Let me first talk a little about Base Stat Totals (where you sum up all six stats).  BST values look as follows--a big group of ridiculously uber pokemon with 680 BST (or 670 in the case of Kyogre and Groudon).  Then a large gap, followed by an enormous group at 600 BST, including all the pixies with 100 in every stat (Mew, Celebi, Jirachi, Manaphy, Shamyn) all the Deoxys, and most of the top of the metagame including Garchomp, Salmence, Heatran, Tyranitar, Metagross, etc.  This group is about evenly split between OU and Uber--there's no Pokemon above this line that aren't banned (not counting Slacking and Regigas who cripple their own stats).  And there's no banned Pokemon below this line (except Wobuffet and Wynaut, which have their own way of breaking the game).  So...it's reasonable to say that this is roughly the borderline area.

Speed
So what differentiates the banned and unbanned 600 BST pokemon?  Well, for starters, the ubers are faster--all but three of the 600BST Ubers have over 100 speed.  The last three, at 100, 100, and 90, are Mew (incredible range of abilities), Manaphy (is a questionable ban--I'll probably look at her next), and Deoxys D (in competition for the most durable pokemon...while also having averagish speed and attack).  By comparison, the OU ones...half of them have speed 80 or below, four have speed 100, and one Latios (only recently unbanned) is at speed 110.

The speed, while clearly not a foolproof indicator, is actually relevant to Garchomp.  One thing you might notice is that there's rather a lot of pokemon with a speed stat of 100.  Garchomp, with a speed stat of 102, outspeeds that group.  (And, of course, in pokemon you just have to be faster to act first).

Damage
Now, while pokemon have six stats layered on top of abilities, you can roughly reduce them to Speed, Damage, and Durability.  I'll talk next about Damage.  Is damage important to whether a pokemon is ban-worthy?  All evidence points to yes--Latios remains banned while Latias gets unbanned--the big difference being that Latios has more damage and Latias has more durability.  On the lower end, Cresslia (a 600 BST pokemon that emphasizes durability over offence) dropped into Underused.  Other people have written before me on why offence dominates the current metagame (whereas defencive stall dominated the Gold/Silver metagame)--I'll just take it as a given that offence is good in the current metagame.

So...how's Garchomp's offence?  Its attack stat of 130 is hardly gamebreaking--among the legal 600-BST group, it's beaten by Salmence (135), Metagross (135), Dragonite(134), and Tyranitar(134), (and Heatran has 130 Special Attack).  Move-wise, however, it's better set up, getting STAB bonuses on 120-power Dragon and 100-power Earth moves (both types that hit some important weaknesses).  Nobody else in the unbanned 600 BST group has quite as much STAB relevance--if they have two types, one of the types is usually psychic (hits none of the 600 BST for super effective) or Flying (relevant against Grass...but neither Dragonite nor Salmence learn a flying move with more than 60 power...unless you count Fly).  Heatran...Fire is good, and Steel technically hits one 600-BST Pokemon for super-effective (Tyranitar), but it's rare to see Heatran with steel attacks as Steel is good against little else.  Which brings us to the one real exception--Tyranitar, with a STAB Rock and STAB Dark (both with 80 effective power when accuracy's accounted for).  But there you have it: 80 power moves, not 100-120 power.

The other important offence threat, of course, is stat raising.  Going through the unbanned part of the 600 BST group...Garchomp gets Swords Dance.  Celebi gets Calm Mind and Swords Dance.  Dragonite gets Dragon Dance and Agility.  Heatran gets nothing.  Jirachi gets Calm Mind.  Latias gets Calm Mind.  Metagross gets Agility.  Salmence gets Dragon Dance.  Tyranitar gets Dragon Dance and Rock Polish.  And for completeness, Cresselia gets Calm Mind and Shaymin gets Swords Dance.  So...almost everyone can buff.  Is Garchomp's Swords Dance any better than the others?  Any worse?  Garchomp arguably fares decently well against all of these--an argument can be made about whether Swords Dance or Dragon Dance is a better move on a physical attacker, but certainly if the physical attacker is already fast, then that gives Swords Dance a big leg up.  Calm Mind...it's noteworthy that Celebi who gets both uses more Calm Mind than Swords Dance...but Celebi's best moves are all special, and I'd wager that Celebi would prefer Nasty Plot/Tail Glow if it were an option.  (If nothing else, the fact that the +2 defence moves get completely ignored by the competitive community suggests Nasty Plot > Calm Mind).

Durability
As already mentioned in the previous section, durability is less important than speed and damage.  But...it's not completely unimportant.  Notably, Azelf has 115 speed and 125 in Attack and Defence...and isn't uber, and the 75, 70, 70 defences probably have a lot to do with that.  So...Garchomp's durability stats are 108, 95, 85--a little worse than the 100, 100, 100 pokemon, but only slightly.  He can reach 101 HP Substitutes (important because they survive Blissey's Seismic Toss) which...only about half the 600 BST pokemon can.

Ground/Dragon is Null Electric, Resistx2 versus Fire, Poison, and Rock, Weakx2 against Dragon, and Weakx4 against Ice.  The resistances are relevant (well...except Poison).  W2 to Dragon and W4 to Ice also matter a fair bit.  Just in terms of soaking up damage moves, this set of weaknesses/resists is unremarkable; W4s are pretty common (W4 to ice in particular...Salamence, Shamyn-S, Gliscor...it's almost like they're intentionally trying to emphasize ice W4s...I'm expecting a Grass Dragon in Gen 5).  So...yeah, not fantastic but not awful for damage taking.  Certainly better than some of the 600 BST group with 5+ weaknesses (Tyranitar, Celebi, Latias).

The typing is actually pretty strong in other ways, though.  Immune to Thunder Wave.  Having a Thunder Wave absorber can be fairly important for a lot of teams.  Not only that, against a fast pokemon that threatens to sweep your team, "thunder wave it" is a common strategy--Garchomp does threaten to sweep, but can't be shut down that way.  Perhaps more important is R2 against Rock.  Stealth Rock is everywhere, being a version of Spikes that hits everything (instead of missing the 1/3 of the field thanks to Levitate and Flying)--except that Stealth Rock really is a rock-type move, so Salmence (weak to rock) takes 25% every time it switches, and Garchomp (resists rock) takes 6.25% every time it switches.  Sandstorm doesn't hurt Garchomp (a pretty common weather because Tyranitar and Hippowdon cause it every time they show up, and both get used).  (Not that Garchomp avoids all battlefield stuff: hit by poison/burn/spikes/hail/sleep).

The final bit of durability is from Garchomp's ability (Sand Veil) which gives it +20% evasion in Sandstorm.  Let's suppose, for the sake of argument, that Sandstorm is going (you can use your own Tyranitar to start it, for instance).  For comparison...let's compare to Salmence's intimidate.  80% hit rate from all three of status/physical/special versus 67% damage from physical...but the 67% goes away if the opponent switches (and on a simultaneous switch, may not be relevant at all).  Sand Veil does seem better here, although that's only in Sandstorm (and in the defence of intimidate, there's switching in and out to stack intimidate as a relevant anti-sweep desperation strategy).

So...in the end, decently tanky.  There's tankier out there, but they tend to be specialists.  Granted, Garchomp only learns Rest, not Recover/Roost, so it's not going to head up a stall team any time soon.

--------

So...to summarize...among the non-uber 600 BST Pokemon, he's faster than almost all of the unbanned ones (and back in Sept 2008, was faster than all the unbanned ones), arguably has the best damage due to STAB options and skillset, and is more durable than about 2/3 of the unbanned 600 BST group.  Granted, there's a couple things I'm not accounting for here--like Standard is more physically oriented, which arguably makes the special attackers relatively better at damage (but also makes Garchomp's durability look slightly better).  Also Explosion--Garchomp doesn't have it, and he's not a steel/rock/ghost so he doesn't resist it.  But approximately speaking, "tied for highest stat total, and beats most of the other high-statters for speed, damage, and durability" is a decent description.  Which makes the ban look rather unsurprising....

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Theorycrafting! (Because I like competitive metagames too much)
« Reply #1 on: April 08, 2010, 05:16:26 AM »
Sounds about right overall. Good read.

Not sure if I personally agree with the ban or not but he -was- sitting pretty much at the top of OU and if anyone was going to be banned it being the land shark makes pretty good sense so I'm certainly fine with it at worst.

Surprised Cressy has dropped out of OU since it was near the top there for a while as a good Specsmence counter. I assume the metagame has moved on from that. (If it's not clear I haven't paid attention to the metagame in quite a while, over a year anyway.)

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metroid composite

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Re: Theorycrafting! (Because I like competitive metagames too much)
« Reply #2 on: April 08, 2010, 05:46:17 AM »
Surprised Cressy has dropped out of OU since it was near the top there for a while as a good Specsmence counter. I assume the metagame has moved on from that. (If it's not clear I haven't paid attention to the metagame in quite a while, over a year anyway.)

Looking up the metagame statistics, the vast majority (>60%) of Salmence users these days go with Life Orb, with specs usage being below 8%.

Though...regardless, isn't specmence badly walled by Blissey too?  I suspect it's more "crowding out" rather than "Cress sucks now".  It probably doesn't help that they recently introduced Latias into the metagame, being another fairly scary special wall with psychic typing and Levitate.  (Although, granted, Dragon typing means you wouldn't wall Specsmence with Latias without scouting the move first).


EDIT:
Actually...and this is pure theory now...but isn't it possible that Specsmence has gone down in usage because of Garchomp's banning?  Pre-ban if you wanted to use a physical dragon, you'd use Garchomp.  Post-ban, you'd use Salamence.  Along the same lines, legalizing Latias also likely severely reduced specsmence--if you're using a specs-dragon, you probably want Latias, who has the same special attack as Salamence, but more speed and durability.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2010, 05:53:28 AM by metroid composite »

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Theorycrafting! (Because I like competitive metagames too much)
« Reply #3 on: April 08, 2010, 06:10:59 AM »
Both of those seem likely.

EDIT: Also, this should go without saying, but the big thing Cressy had over Blissey was "tanks physicals, too". It was a decent all-around tank, just notable for being able to stop Specsmence unlike some others. But yeah, I should have processed what introducing Latias would do, there, even without the knowledge that Specsmence had fallen out of use.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2010, 06:13:39 AM by Dark Holy Elf »

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Lord Ephraim

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Re: Theorycrafting! (Because I like competitive metagames too much)
« Reply #4 on: April 08, 2010, 08:31:00 AM »
I see a Garchomp, and I just have Weavile ice punch them, so I don't see the big deal. >_>

Also



Gible > Garchomp. It's so damn cute.


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Re: Theorycrafting! (Because I like competitive metagames too much)
« Reply #5 on: April 08, 2010, 12:13:16 PM »
I see a Garchomp, and I just have Weavile ice punch them, so I don't see the big deal. >_>


In competition? I think Yache Berry is still in use, so Ice Punch won't one-shot it, and then Outrage splatters your obscenely frail counter. Or they just switch in bulky water type that Weavile can't do much against unless you're carrying a status or debuff move. I am, however, unsure as to the standing of Focus Sash in tournaments, which would bring it back around in Weavile's favor.
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Re: Theorycrafting! (Because I like competitive metagames too much)
« Reply #6 on: April 08, 2010, 12:20:13 PM »
I'm fairly sure YacheChomp is still common, yeah, and if Weavile were to somehow survive through items, then the switch could come in here. Garchomp's fast enough that, even on low health, it'd be perfectly capable of getting at least one turn out when it's brought back in.

To the actual topic, I'm honestly not surprised Garchomp's been banned, and this topic perfectly highlights why. Surprised to see some of the figures involved, though, and it was a good read. :)

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Re: Theorycrafting! (Because I like competitive metagames too much)
« Reply #7 on: April 08, 2010, 01:08:53 PM »
Token Grefter enjoying mc analysis goes here.  Numbers, conclusions, good times.
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Re: Theorycrafting! (Because I like competitive metagames too much)
« Reply #8 on: April 08, 2010, 09:11:49 PM »
Yache Berry is really the key item you are missing in your analysis here, as that's what pushed Garchomp over the edge. It takes something silly like Choice Specs Glaceon Ice Beam to actually OHKO Yachechomp, which means typically you need *two* Pokemon to stop it: one to remove the Yache Berry and one to finish the job. These Pokemon either need to be faster and have a competent Ice move (or know Ice Shard, which is priority), or be slower, can take a hit from +2 Garchomp, and have a competent Ice move. Moreover, the odds of Sand Veil triggering jumps from 20% to 36% in this case, i.e. a 36% chance Garchomp can face two Pokemon geared towards stopping it consecutively and still come out alive.

Also, Specsmence had already pretty much died out in favor of other models well before Garchomp's banning. It has no way of getting past Blissey ever, whereas Life Orb Salamence gives you 86.7% of the power on Draco Meteor while also possessing the ability to switch over to Brick Break or Outrage at any time to threaten would be special walls thinking about switching in.

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Re: Theorycrafting! (Because I like competitive metagames too much)
« Reply #9 on: April 08, 2010, 09:26:01 PM »
Token Grefter enjoying mc analysis goes here.  Numbers, conclusions, good times.

Quoting Grefter here. Well replace "Token Grefter" with "Tide" I suppose.

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metroid composite

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Re: Theorycrafting! (Because I like competitive metagames too much)
« Reply #10 on: April 09, 2010, 12:01:55 AM »
I am, however, unsure as to the standing of Focus Sash in tournaments, which would bring it back around in Weavile's favor.

Stealth Rocks break Focus Sash--anyone's team that plans a sweep tends to lay down Stealth Rocks first.  (Stealth Rocks are completely ridiculous that way--offence teams would probably use them if they dealt a constant 6% to everyone just because they break Focus Sash...but no, on top of damaging everyone they deal the same amount as spikes to most, and deal as much as 50% to rock weakness).

Yache Berry is really the key item you are missing in your analysis here, as that's what pushed Garchomp over the edge. It takes something silly like Choice Specs Glaceon Ice Beam to actually OHKO Yachechomp, which means typically you need *two* Pokemon to stop it: one to remove the Yache Berry and one to finish the job.

Scarf-mence with Draco Meteor kills, even with a speed-boosting nature.  And Scarf guarantees Salmence will be faster since Yache Berry Garchomp means that it's not using Scarf or Salac Berry.  Or if you don't like the downsides of Draco Meteor, a Scarf-Mence with a Nature that boosts special kills about 55% of the time with Dragon Pulse.

Though...regardless, yeah, this is something I didn't think of.  I didn't comment too much on items for Garchomp in general, which may have been a mistake.

I guess the reason I didn't look too deeply into item choices is that I figured they'd be determined by the stuff I was analyzing--for instance, the kind of pokemon you Scarf are generally the kind that have great damage and good speed.  The kind of pokemon you use a resist-berry on are generally ones with a single particularly glaring weakness, alongside otherwise good durability--I know Heatran uses Schuca Berry.  (Although wait no: looking a little deeper I'm not sure I have my mind wrapped properly around berry use at all--apparently a decent number of Tyranitars use Babbiri Berrys, and that's not even Tyranitar's W4.  I guess that's...fear of Bullet Punch?)

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Re: Theorycrafting! (Because I like competitive metagames too much)
« Reply #11 on: April 09, 2010, 12:12:23 AM »
Stealth Rock is one of the reasons Gen4 held my interest less than previous gens. Spikes, at least, was mainly played by defence-oriented teams. SR is pretty much to your benefit to play -regardless-. And it singlehandled hoses certain pokemon utterly on top of being overcentralising.

I bet the Babiri Berries have something to do with Scizor who spent quite a while at the top of OU (not sure if he's still there). No clue on specifics though.

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Re: Theorycrafting! (Because I like competitive metagames too much)
« Reply #12 on: April 09, 2010, 12:24:14 AM »
The downside of Scarfmence as a Garchomp counter is that an intelligent Chomp user will assume or test for the presence of Choice Scarf when you bring Mence into Chomp.  This will indeed force Chomp out, but if you follow through on the Meteor, it'll be able to come right back in two turns later - and the pool of potentially scarfed Draco Meteor users is a lot more shallow than the pool of potentially scarfed Ice move users.  Also, since Mence is weak to Dragon itself (as are all other STAB Dragon users, for that matter), you can't bring it in on Chomp without gambling or losing a poke, the gamble gets more dangerous once they know you have it, and what if you're wrong about Yache and it's a Scarfchomp?  etc.

Berry use is usually dictated by specific metagame concerns, "I want my X to surprise and counter-KO poke (or small group of pokes) Y that would normally beat it."  In the case cited, yeah, that's probably Dragon Dance T-Tar trying to counter Scizor, who is currently one of the most prevalent pokemon in OU and can stop a normal T-Tar Dragon Dance sweep with Bullet Punch.   Say you're running DDTar, you get it in vs the one poke on the opponent's team you can Dance up against and get your Dance as they switch to Scizor.  Scizor is going to Bullet Punch you for sure, the opponent knows you can't dance up against anything else on their team so it's unlikely you'll switch out.  If you survive the Bullet Punch and KO Scizor in return - well, Bullet Punch Scizor was probably the opponent's only planned counter to a DDTar, so you probably just won the match.  

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Re: Theorycrafting! (Because I like competitive metagames too much)
« Reply #13 on: April 09, 2010, 12:27:45 AM »
Scarfmence was never used because if you wanted a Scarfed Dragon-type that can OHKO Garchomp but can't switch in on any sort of Dragon move, you'd use... Scarfchomp! <_< It was pretty much strictly better (takes SR/sand much better, much better second STAB, guaranteed to outspeed a DDmence that managed to setup still and revenge kill it).

Incidentally there was some thought that Latias could help check Garchomp's power since it doesn't need a scarf to outspeed Garchomp, so it could revenge kill without having to specialize. That was tested on a separate ladder a short while back (first with a whole bunch of other contested OU/Uber types like Latios and Shaymin-S, then just Garchomp/Latias/Manaphy for 'suspects'), and while Garchomp was indeed less effective people still voted it uber in the end, albeit by a narrower margin than before.

Because the type resist berries only work once, their use is pretty specialized - there's no point in having Blissey survive one Close Combat if the second one's going to kill her anyways. The first is lead Pokemon, which tend to metagame against a very narrow set of common leads and focus on getting their job done in terms of setup (or preventing enemy setup) in just a few turns. The second is setup sweepers, such as Yachechomp. DDTars run Babiri Berry because otherwise CB Scizor Bullet Punch OHKO (87.7% - 103.5% damage, guaranteed OHKO with SR up), thereby ruining the whole point of Dragon Dance,and Scizor is the most common Pokemon in OU play.

metroid composite

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Re: Theorycrafting! (Because I like competitive metagames too much)
« Reply #14 on: April 09, 2010, 01:44:28 AM »
Okay, I next want to analyze the tanks.  I'm kind of weirded out that I breezed over "Deoxys-D is uber" without really doing a comparison.  Not to mention I made a claim that it was the most durable pokemon, which I'm actually not sure is true--50 HP could be a problem.

First, dual-defences.  The goal here will be to use EVs and natures to get the lowest percentage of HP lost from a neutral 100 power attack from 300 attack/special attack opponent.  I'm aware this is moderately contrived, because generally you have your nature boost the stat with more EVs in it, but it's a place to start.

I'll do this in the format of...

Pokemon name
Evs, Nature
Stats these produce.  Damage done to this pokemon from a 100 power move off of 300 stat.  Percentage of HP lost.


Lugia (Uber)
EVs: 252 HP, 160 Defence, 96 Special, Def-boost-Nature
Defences are 368-369, HP is 416.  Damage is 65.  15.6%

Giratina (Uber)
EVs: 252 HP, 68 defence, 188 Special, Def-boost-Nature
Defences are 322-323, HP is 504.  Damage is 74.  14.6%

Deoxys-D (Uber)
EVs: 252 HP, 56 Defence, 200 Special, Def-boost-nature
Defences are 406/407, HP is 304.  Damage is 59.  19.4%

Cresselia
EVs: 252 HP, 108 Defence, 148 Special, Def-boost-nature
Defences are 333/333, HP is 444.  Damage is 71.  15.9%

Registeel
EVs: 252 HP, 56 Defence, 200 Special, Def-boost-nature
Defences are 385/386, HP is 364.  Damage is 62.  17.0%

Blissey
EVs: 252 HP, 252 Defence, 4 Special, Def-boost-nature
Defences are 130/307, HP is 714.  Damage is 180 (to physical).  25.2%

Wobuffet (Uber)
EVs: 80 HP, 176 Defence, 252 Special, Def-boost-nature
Defences are 215/215, HP is 541.  Damage is 110.  20.3%

Snorlax
EVs: 252 HP, 252 Defence, 4 Special, Def-boost-nature
Defences are 251/257 (favoring special), HP is 524.  Damage is 94.  17.9%

Shuckle!
EVs: 252 HP, 28 Defence, 228 Special, Def-boost-nature
Defences are 553/553, HP is 244.  Damage is 43.  17.6%

Bastidon
EVs: 252 HP, 80 Defence, 176 Special, Special-Def-Boost-nature
Defences are 391/392.  HP is 324.  18.8%

Uxie
EVs: 252 HP, 64 Defence, 192 Special, Def-boost-nature
Defences are 343/344.  HP is 354.  Damage is 69.  19.4%.

Umbreon
EVs: 252 HP, 152 Defence, 104 Special, Def-boost-nature
Defences are 322/323.  HP is 394.  Damage is 74.  18.7%.



...I think that's enough.  Most remaining ones are visibly inferior to an already posted non-uber.  But the point is...holy crap I was wrong: Deoxys-D fails stat-wise.  Uxie ties it for durability, beats it in attack, defence, and speed, has the same type, and has a much, much, much more defencive ability (Levitate instead of Pressure).  And Uxie us UU!  What the hell?  Good grief...maybe they think pressure is too good?  But...no Suicune has Pressure, and it's in a similar tankiness range.  So...I can only assume that it's Mew-clause "oh my god this movepool is too good".  Hmm....
« Last Edit: April 09, 2010, 01:46:01 AM by metroid composite »

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Re: Theorycrafting! (Because I like competitive metagames too much)
« Reply #15 on: April 09, 2010, 02:05:12 AM »
Deo-D gets Recover and all 3 entry hazards, so while it can't take hits as well as Cresselia, it can actually *do* something with its turns. 50% healing moves are incredibly valuable for defensive Pokemon now that Rest is highly risky and Gen 4 stall basically requires every single team member to contribute something significant to the team strategy (Sandstream, entry hazards, phazing, spinning, spin blocking, or Wish) instead of just sitting there and taking hits. On paper this means that Deo-D would be pretty much the ideal stall Pokemon if allowed in OU, aside from that fact that its resists suck.

With all that said, several high level Pokemon players have suggested testing Deo-D before. I'm not sure what entirely was the reason it slipped through the cracks, but I suspect the fact that it is taking them forever to get through Garchomp/Deoxys-S/Skymin/Latias/Latios/Manaphy has a lot to do with it, and Jumpman at least is dead serious about wanting to test species/evade/OHKO clause later on.

metroid composite

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Re: Theorycrafting! (Because I like competitive metagames too much)
« Reply #16 on: April 09, 2010, 02:21:54 AM »
Off topic when it comes to Deoxys/Garchomp, but...Shoddy server stats for Feb/March just posted:

http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=69643

Salmence, Scizor, and Latias all drop in usage.  Not what I was expecting. 

metroid composite

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Re: Theorycrafting! (Because I like competitive metagames too much)
« Reply #17 on: April 09, 2010, 04:10:30 AM »
but I suspect the fact that it is taking them forever to get through Garchomp/Deoxys-S/Skymin/Latias/Latios/Manaphy has a lot to do with it

They're testing Shamyn-S?  Hmm...

If we ignore the type chart, it sounds like madness--Shamyn's a lot faster than Garchomp and arguably hits harder (due to fewer special walls and Serene Grace and Seed Flare).  ...With type chart...the fact that grass is not very effective against flying, grass, dragon, or steel means that Seed Flare hits type resistance against every 600-BST OU Pokemon except Tyranitar (who is weak to grass).  That said, unlike grass, flying isn't resisted by 7 types, and with Flinch accounted for, Airslashspam is on average about a 165 power move.

The movepool is kinda kinda abysmal.  (Has swords dance, but very limited physical options.  Seed Bomb, Zen Headbutt, and...a bunch of Normal Physicals...Return, Headbutt for the 60% flinch, Secret Power for the 60%...how is Secret Power implemented in versus?)  And...past that, doesn't even have Calm Mind (it has GROWTH though!)  Moves on the special side are...a lot of good Grass stuff (Seed Flare which is absurd + every good grass attack).  Air Slash.  And uhh...outside of those types, there's Psychic and Earth Power, and then all other types use Hidden Power.

Defensively, it's stats are...not particularly defence-oriented, but it's not made of paper.  Type-wise, A W4 and four W2s...although two of those W2s don't matter much (Flying and Poison).  25% to Stealth Rock.  Avoids Spikes/Toxic Spikes.  Resists...R2 to Water and Fighting, R4 to Grass, Immune to Ground (all relevant resists to varying degrees).

In all...I'm still eying that Air Slash.  Unless you are one of the five fastest pokemon in OU, or you use priority moves, or you specifically counter Flinch, or you're scarfed, you're going to get flinched.  Choice Specs Air Slash...on average kills most pokemon before flinch fails (exceptions are very tanky or resist flying...although note that all flying resistant types are weak to Earth).

It seems...probably centralizing.  Not as obviously so as, say, Deoxys-A (which would just emphasize priority moves--at least there's a few more ways to counter Shaymin-S than just priority).
« Last Edit: April 09, 2010, 04:12:22 AM by metroid composite »

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Re: Theorycrafting! (Because I like competitive metagames too much)
« Reply #18 on: April 09, 2010, 05:03:40 AM »
All I have to say is this: I don't really know anything about competitive Pokemon aside from some of hinode's random comments in chat, but seems interesting enough.  To follow what was going on here, I looked up some stuff on the Interwebs at Smogon.

Under Wobbuffet - damn your Smash Brothers form - there is only one setup listed. ( http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/wobbuffet )

It is "Oh, no! It's Wobbuffet!"

I was amused.

That is all.

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Re: Theorycrafting! (Because I like competitive metagames too much)
« Reply #19 on: April 09, 2010, 06:05:12 AM »
Under Wobbuffet - damn your Smash Brothers form - there is only one setup listed. ( http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/wobbuffet )

It is "Oh, no! It's Wobbuffet!"

From what I've seen, that's an appropriate response to Wobbuffet.  Hmm...this fight will give you an idea of how god damned scary Wobbuffet is:

http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=51272

It's noteworthy that I've seen people calling for Wobbuffet to be banned from ubers (they're wrong for a variety of reasons--such as "nobody gets banned from ubers, that's the whole point", but...yeah).

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Re: Theorycrafting! (Because I like competitive metagames too much)
« Reply #20 on: April 10, 2010, 12:52:21 AM »
Quote
They're testing Shamyn-S?  Hmm...

They were testing, rather. You can see what the results are, although Skymin managed the curious feat of apparantly performing much better with Garchomp/Latios/Latias/Manaphy - it was extremely controversial when tested alone and only got a 51% Uber margin, but got a supermajority when tested in a metagame with all the other 'Suspect' Pokemon (except Deo-S which completely dominated the first week and got a swift boot - although Scarf Skymin can actually beat Deo-S one on one!).

Incidentally you guys have only seen a fraction of Wobbuffet's brokeness. By the time it was given the boot from OU (way earlier than all the other tests), people had started running speed EVs on it and doing stuff like this:

Turn X: Wobbuffet switches in, Skarmory uses Roost
Turn X+1: Wobbuffet uses Encore
Turn X+2 to X+10 or so: Wobbuffet alternates Tickle and Encore to get Skarm to -6 Defense while keeping it Encore-locked
Turn ~X+11: Wobbuffet user switches to Tyranitar (the opposing Pokemon can not switch out this turn, as Shadow Tag is active when the decision on what move to use is made)
Turn ~X+12: Tyranitar uses Pursuit, guaranteed KO on Skarmory no matter what despite Skarm resisting Dark and having 416 defense

Basically any slow wall was at severe risk of getting trapped for the unavoidable Pursuit kill if they ever dared to use a non-offensive move. Of course if they used a (weak, due to lack of offensive EVs) attack instead, Wobb could just Counter/Mirror Coat for the kill the old fashioned way. And you thought gen 4 was rough on defensive Pokemon as it is!

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Re: Theorycrafting! (Because I like competitive metagames too much)
« Reply #21 on: April 10, 2010, 03:44:54 AM »
They were testing, rather. You can see what the results are, although Skymin managed the curious feat of apparantly performing much better with Garchomp/Latios/Latias/Manaphy - it was extremely controversial when tested alone and only got a 51% Uber margin, but got a supermajority when tested in a metagame with all the other 'Suspect' Pokemon (except Deo-S which completely dominated the first week and got a swift boot - although Scarf Skymin can actually beat Deo-S one on one!).

That...actually makes sense to me.  All of those pokemon are 100-110 speed, Skymin is 127.  The best way to counter a fast pokemon (assuming similar total stats), is either to be slightly faster, or much slower.  Introducing a bunch of very good, slightly slower pokemon is going to make Skymin look comparatively better.  It's also noteworthy that this adds two more decent targets for grass attacks (Garchomp is neutral to grass, Manaphy is weak).  Not to mention more users of ground and water attacks are fine by Skymin.

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Re: Theorycrafting! (Because I like competitive metagames too much)
« Reply #22 on: April 10, 2010, 07:14:46 AM »
So...getting to one I've had in the back of my mind for a while...

Manaphy


What makes Manaphy good in the Uber metagame?  Kyogre tends to cause constant rain, and then Manaphy heals status every turn, which, among other things, allows it to use Rest without spending any turns sleeping.  This is fairly tough to crack in ubers, let alone Standard.  Fortunately, Kyogre is not in standard.  Kyogre will never be in Standard.  So...Rain Dance lasts the usual 5 turns (or 8 with item), and you can probably spend those turns on something better than stalling and using rest.  And that's assuming the opponent doesn't have an auto-hail or auto-sandstorm pokemon...which are common enough.  In fact, as noted Manaphy has been tested before, and looking at Manaphy's move list in the experimental pool...most people aren't even using Rest at all on Manaphy.

Speed
Manaphy loses to 9 OU pokemon, ties with 6 OU pokemon, and beats 35 OU pokemon.  Definitely above average, but people already have the 100 speed number in their crosshairs, so they will pick speed numbers to put them 1 above certain 100 speed setups.  Even allowing for that, it's 70th percentile or so.

Offence
100 attack/special (compared to quite a few prominent pokemon with 130).  Only gets STAB on water, but water's relevant (nails Heatran, nails Tyranitar).  More specifically, water hits three relevant weaknesses (Rock, Ground, Fire) and is only resisted by three types (Water, Grass, Dragon), which, granted, are relevant types.  (It's also worth mentioning that water's neutral against Steel).

Movepool is fairly varied, moreso in special.  In Special has 90+ power attacks in Water, Psychic, Ice, Grass (...inconsistently; silly Grass Knot), and 75+ attacks in Ghost, and Bug.  But it lacks the "120 with acceptable drawbacks" moves (including Hydro Pump) not to mention the "140 with acceptable drawbacks" moves (like Overheat and Draco Meteor).  And...notably for OU, according to Shoddy statistics, the 10-most-used pokemon all frequently carry one of Fire, Earth, or Fighting (i.e. super effective against Steel).  Except Latias (still has HP Fire on rare occasions).  Manaphy gets no advantage for using Hidden Power, though--STAB Surf does as much as 70 power Earth/Fire/Fight to Steels.  On a different note, naturally if you do use rain it will further boost the power of Surf.  Notably, Rain+STAB = 2.25x, better than hitting a 2x weakness.

Manaphy's physical movepool is a lot less varied.  It has Waterfall (good physical water move), U-Turn (some arguments for being the best move in the game--I've seen good players use Baton Pass without any stat raising move in their setup just so that they could get extra information on switch ins.  Take that and add 70 Bug damage), and...some Normal options--Return for 102 power is probably the best.  But...regardless, we're probably not going to see a dedicated physical Manaphy any time soon; a Special Manaphy with U-Turn, sure, but....

Stat boosters--I'm going to come back to this; I want to lay the groundwork first.  Suffice it to say...Tail Glow.

Defence
Manaphy's one of those pokemon with 100 in every stat.  What does that actually mean?  Fairly solid, though not godly durability (by the previous measure, a Manaphy with defencive EVs takes 21.0% damage--which is to say, only 8% less durable than Deoxys-D >_>).  With the max HP EVs, reaches 101 HP Substitutes.  The status recovery in the rain is pretty cool, but honestly, if you're going to have one of your pokemon use a move so that another pokemon can recover status, there's Heal Bell.  The Natural Cure ability on, for instance, Celebi will usually be better.  In fact, in general I'm not too worried about pokemon who can be described as "only over the top on Rain Dance teams"--Rain Dance doesn't seem to be pushing the boundary on "too good" right now...and even if it was, something tells me mono-type teams that require setup aren't going to dominate.

Water on defence is pretty good--four relevant resistances (Fire, Water, Ice, Steel) and two weaknesses (Grass, Electric)--both from attack types with about twice as many resistances as weaknesses.  Also, that grass weakness?  Grass Knot is popular, and is only a 20 power move against Manaphy.  So...pretty tanky resist-wise...although the competition in the "100 in all stats" category includes Jirachi, who also has only two weaknesses...and 9 resistances.

Manaphy against the battlefield is...neutral to everything.  Normal damage from Stealth Rock.  Can be poisoned, burned, paralyzed, hit by hail, hit by sandstorm, hit by spikes, hit by toxic spikes.  I guess being a primarily special attacker it cares less about Burn than most.  To be fair, this applies to Celebi and Shaymin too...although they cure status more easily.  Jirachi's tankier here, though (can't be hurt by sandstorm, takes less from Stealth Rocks, and can't be poisoned).

So...outside of getting really meta (a la "everyone prepares for steel!!!"), durability goes Jirachi > Manaphy > Celebi.

Support
Manaphy lacks healing.  Rest is basically its only option.  (This is compared to Recover on Celebi, and Wish on Jirachi).  Past that, Manaphy has some decent-looking support options.  Heal Bell (cure party status).  Sleep Talk (could be paired with Rest).  Dual Screens (i.e. Reflect and Light Screen).  Safeguard.  And it does learn Rain Dance in case you want to alternate that and Rest.

Notably, Jirachi learns all of these except Heal Bell (Celebi learns all of these).  And...at least in the suspect latter, most of these were pretty rare (since if you want support, Jirachi does those AND Stealth Rock).

The most-used one, Rest, was used on about 20% of Manaphys, so some people try to make it work, but it's far from the consensus setup (unlike in ubers where its usage is like...95%).  I should also note, full healing is good, but if your opponent's dealing over 50% then you are heal-locked...and in Pokemon it's blind heal-locked (you don't actually know before they attack whether they will attack or do something else).  And naturally, if someone predicts a Rest and switches in Tyranitar or Abomasnow, then you're out cold for three rounds.

One more comment on the Hydration+Rest+Rain Dance Combo, Manaphy's not the only one that can use it; there are others, and they're all in the "Never Used" tier.  Granted, their BST is more middle of UU unlike Manaphy (whose BST would be tied for best in tier), but I'm going to theorize that if this move combination made you way better than your stats suggest, then presumably these other Hydration pokemon could keep their head above water in UU.  And if  this move combination does not make you way better than your stats suggest...well Jirachi has a lot of things that ought to make it look better than its stats suggest (Wish, Stealth Rocks, Steel Typing, U-Turn) and isn't uber.  So...if something's going to keep Manaphy banned, that thing probably won't be Rest+Hydration.

Tail Glow
So...remember that thing earlier that I skipped over?  Manaphy's stat-upping moves?  Yeah, so uhh, Manaphy learns Calm Mind, but it's pretty rarely used.  Perhaps because Jirachi learns it too.  But more likely because Manaphy gets freaking Tail Glow.  For those who don't know it, Tail Glow is Nasty Plot is Swords Dance for special attack.

So...who among the 600 BST group can we compare Tail Glow to?  Oooh, Garchomp has a +2...wait, he's banned.  Umm...Shaymin and Celebi have +2s in their less favoured stat that they don't have good moves for....  To be perfectly egalitarian in this comparison, I'd like to go for a special attacker like Heatran...wait, he doesn't have a stat-up at all.  So...who else uses Tail Glow?  Some 400 BST bug with worse stats than Ponyta.  Err...okay, who else learns Nasty Plot?  Well...notably Azelf, a pokemon that beats Manaphy in speed and special attack.

So...Azelf hits harder and faster.  But...arguably being tanky is important for a sweeper, just to make sure that the priority moves don't stop you.  And Azelf scores low on Tanky (30.8% using the same defensive measure).  Well...Togekiss...if we ignore the attack stat on both Togekiss and Manaphy (which, frankly, neither of them are using as Nasty Plot sweepers) then their stats look similarly good; Togekiss is a bit slower, but hits a bit harder, and is similarly tanky.  Oh, and Togekiss also gets two support moves that pair well with Nasty Plot: Baton Pass and Roost (Roost being arguably better than Rest).

It is noteworthy that rain dance teams get to give Manaphy an extra +50% before it uses Tail Glow (although this only boosts Surf.  Against Salamence or Latias or Celebi, Ice Beam's still better than Surf even in the rain, so it's not a straight +50% damage to all attacks).

---------------

All in all, Manaphy's really feeling like "not uber" to me.  It just tends to be boxed in on two sides.  Azelf is the faster Nasty Plot sweeper; Togekiss is the slower Nasty Plot sweeper.  Celebi is better at shrugging off status; Jirachi is tankier.  (And outside of Tail Glow they both learn better support moves).  Speaking of Celebi, I'm sure Celebi would love to have a water type to have an advantage over.  And as far as rain dance teammates go, I'm going to say Swift Swim impresses me a lot more than Hydration.

The other reason you might ban pokemon is just metagame reasons.  I mean, I can see arguments that, even if individually they're all balanced, unbanning multiple Deoxys and Latios and Latias would be silly, as it would overrun the metagame with psychic pokemon.  That said, water, while present in the metagame, does not threaten to overrun much.

You could also argue that too many pokemon with 100 in all stats removes variety, but in that case you'd want to do some head-to-head comparisons between Jirachi/Manaphy/Celebi (and assuming they come out even, I might swap Jirachi into Ubers and Manaphy out anyhow--Jirachi leaving means one less 600 BST Steel type, and one less Stealth Rocks user).

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Re: Theorycrafting! (Because I like competitive metagames too much)
« Reply #23 on: April 10, 2010, 05:05:00 PM »
So I don't really do the whole competetive side of pokemon, but my friends in Tally do so whenever I go there I always get my arse handed to me by their teams.

~

Now, I'm not one to use a pokemon that looks lame or just doesn't plain fit my playing style on my team just because. I like to use pokemon who look cool and what have you for my personal team.

If I were to use a team such as: Lucario, Houndoom, Golduck, Electivire, Sceptile, and Scyhther ... would it work against a decent matched up opponent, or would those pokemon just bit the big one pretty badly?

~~

As a side note, when I do play those fools up in Tally they did mention that no Legendaries can be used in the team selection so that also affects things a bit...I guess?
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metroid composite

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Re: Theorycrafting! (Because I like competitive metagames too much)
« Reply #24 on: April 11, 2010, 12:42:11 AM »
So...I'd like to take a moment to criticize the type chart.  Let's start with the two types added in Gen 2.

Dark as an attack type is good against Psychic and Ghost, bad against Dark and Steel.  Ghost as an attack type is...EXACTLY the same (except that Dark is half damage to Fighting, and Ghost is null damage to Normal).  I really have to look at this, scratch my head, and ask why.  Why add this whole new attacking type that is exactly the same as an old attacking type?  (Admitedly, Dark on defence is fine).

Then we have Steel.  Now, steel is obviously meant to be a defencive type with not much going on on offence.  Let's look at its offence, then--it looks like they wanted to make it weak against all the starters fire/water/grass...but that they messed up because those aren't the first three elements.  And the thing is, Grass is the one that really needed the help--Fire, Water, and Electric ALREADY had more resistances than weaknesses.  So...in addition, they decide to have it hit super-effective on two types...note that this means it hits more types super effectively than Normal, Dragon, and Poison, and the same number super effectively as Electric, Psychic, Ghost, and Dark.  "But wait" you say "some of those are good attack types because they have so few resistances."  Okay, let's look at the Super Effective vs Resistances counts:

Ground: 5 weak, 2 resist, 1 null (total: +1)
Rock: 4 weak, 3 resist (total: +1)
Ice: 4 weak, 4 resist (total: 0)
Fire: 4 weak, 4 resist (Total: 0)
Water: 3 weak, 3 resist (Total: 0)
Flying: 3 weak, 3 resist (total: 0)
Dragon: 1 weak, 1 resist (total: 0)
Fighting: 5 weak, 4 resist, 1 null (total: -1)
Dark: 2 weak, 3 resist (total: -1)
Ghost: 2 weak, 2 resist, 1 null (total: -2)
Psychic: 2 weak, 2 resist, 1 null (total: -2)
Steel: 2 weak, 4 resist (total: -2)
Electric: 2 weak, 3 resist, 1 null (Total: -3)
Bug: 3 weak, 6 resist (total: -3)
Normal: 2 resist, 1 null (Total: -4)
Grass: 3 weak, 7 resist (Total: -4)
Poison: 1 weak, 4 resist, 1 null (total: -5)

So where is steel in all of this?  Hovering just below average.  I mean, it's successfully not a good attacking type, but it's not a bad one either.

So...let's say I was making a super-defencive type, and wanted to hand out 10 resistances.  What types would I avoid resisting?  Easy answer--types where resistances are a rare sought-out thing.  Types like normal where, say, Rock, despite being a generally weak type, is noteworthy for its resistance to Explosion and Rapid Spin and stuff like that.  Naturally the designers don't agree...but Normal's still not too bad (after all, you still have two other options).

Dragon, however, is inexcusable.  I agree Dragon should have a resist!  However, if you're going to have an attack type that's only resisted by one, single defencive type, surely you would not give this type 9 other resists as well.  "so...I'm predicting my opponent will use a Dragon move, so I should probably switch to a pokemon who resists that.  And...just to be safe I'll also switch to a pokemon that resists Normal, Grass, Ice, Poison, Flying, Psychic, Bug, Rock, Ghost, Dark, and Steel."  The problem being that if Dragon attacks become really powerful in the metagame, obviously the response is to bring in steels, which then has splash damage on 9 other attacking types.  By comparison, let's suppose the one single Dragon resistance in the game was on Dark instead.  Now if Dragon attacks get big in the metagame, you'd have splash damage on like...two other types that dark resists.

Oh and...null poison, immune to poison attacks?  Really?  I mean, it leads to some interesting strategies like Jirachi carrying Toxic Orb and trick, but...oh wait, couldn't Poison pokemon already do that?  All they'd need to do would be to make a poison pokemon with Jirachi-level stats.

Next item...naturally it's reasonable for some types to be overall better than others.  I mean, this can just be an extra variable in the quality of the pokemon, right?  So...naturally we should expect some of the types that have lots of weaknesses and few resistances will have naturally higher stats...right?

Now...for this, 600-BST doesn't seem appropriate; most of those are legendary in some way, and maybe they feel like "we should make them good at everything, including type!".  Let's go with >500 BST; that catches stuff like starters, and a number of pokemon you can get in the wild).

Bug (+0 on defence) (-3 on offence)
2 Pokemon with > 500 BST.

Dark (+2 on defence) (-1 on offence)
5 Pokemon with > 500 BST

Dragon (+2 on defence) (0 on offence)
11 Pokemon with > 500 BST

Electric (+2 on defence) (-3 on offence)
7 Pokemon with > 500 BST

Fighting (+1 on defence) (0 on offence)
5 Pokemon with > 500 BST

Fire (+2 on defence) (0 on offence)
12 Pokemon with > 500 BST

Flying (+2 on defence) (0 on offence)
17 Pokemon with > 500 BST

Ghost (+4 on defence) (-2 on offence)
3 pokemon with > 500 BST

Grass (-1 on defence) (-4 on offence)
10 pokemon with > 500 BST

Ground (+1 on defence) (+1 on offence)
10 pokemon with > 500 BST

Ice (-3 on defence) (0 on offence)
8 pokemon with > 500 BST

Normal (+1 on defence) (-4 on offence)
9 pokemon (2 of whom arguably don't count) with > 500 BST

Poison (+2 on defence) (-5 on offence)
4 pokemon with > 500 BST

Psychic (-1 on defence) (-2 on offence)
21 pokemon with > 500 BST

Rock (-1 on defence) (+1 on offence)
7 pokemon with > 500 BST

Steel (+8 on defence) (-2 on offence)
11 pokemon with > 500 BST

Water (+2 on defence) (0 on offence)
17 Pokemon with > 500 BST

So...the types that hit double digits are almost all types that are in the black in terms of good resistances/hitting weakness.  The exceptions?  Grass (which has the leg-up from having 4 starters) and Psychic (which they ret-conned to have more weaknesses).

By the way, random weirdness: Electric having only one weakness?  Really?  I mean, ignoring the stats of its pokemon, it's one of the tankiest types.



All-in-all, wow, type chart is weird.  I mean, arguably there's too many types, so arguably simplifying it a bit is not a bad thing by making it effectively 10 types or whatever.  But...wouldn't it better to design the game with 10 types from the start?  And have a slightly more readable type chart?