Theorycrafting! (Because I like competitive metagames too much)

[Dark Holy Elf]

Yeah, things change a bit if you ignore the levels before a certain point, though as a note D&D has often been very unbalanced if you assume that (5e not as terribly as 3e, though, which rather directly used performance at low levels as a balance for Wizards, for instance). Obviously doesn't change anything for your specific case, though.

I should also note that there are some magic items which immediately set your stat to equal to 19 and if you start in a campaign which is high-level and allows the PCs to buy/choose some magic items from the DMG (the ones I'm thinking of are Uncommon), some very abusive things are possible (set a crucial stat to 8, then get the item), but I imagine most DMs would not allow that exploit even if they did allow the magic items in question normally. (I wouldn't.)

[metroid composite]

Oh for sure, they do a pretty good job at making 15/15/15 have lots of downsides.  One step below that, though, is 15/15/13 or 15/14/14, and almost any race can use one or the other of these to get starting level 1 stats of 16/16/14.  Half a step below that is the "standard array" 15/14/13/12/10/8...which is actually kind-of hard to use for most races if you care about three stats (good if you only care about two stats).  But this being the "standard array" shows that they expect people to put some extra points into at least their top two stats.

[metroid composite]

D&D 5e

So...the character I made was a monk (and just Monk 8; nothing terribly silly going on; mostly just wanted to try a monk since I've never seen someone play them in any campaign ever, and I hear they don't suck now).

However, here's a bit of a silly combo I've been thinking of.

Lore Bard 6+/Life Cleric 1/Warlock 2

Lore Bard/Life Cleric is a bit of a known quantity.  The idea is to use the level 1 Disciple of Life skill from Cleric (your healing spells heal for a bonus of 2 + the level of the spell) and then combine it with other class spells it was never meant to combine with (because Bards can steal spells from anywhere).  Like...Goodberry--level 1 Druid spell, you make 10 berries that heal for 1 (now they heal for 4, for a total of 40).  Or...Aura of Vitality (level 3 Paladin spell: heal your choice of target for 2d6 every turn for 1 minute--now it heals for 2d6+5, raising the total healing from 70 to 120).

Warlock is mostly there to also give this setup good sustained charisma-based offence (Eldritch Blast with some invocations--Eldritch Blast being a cantrip scales with player level).  But it also brings with it two Warlock spell slots, and warlock spell slots refresh themselves every short rest.  So...every short rest you get two castings of Goodberry from the Warlock spell slots (40+40 = 80 out-of-combat healing that refreshes every short rest.  Plus Song of Rest I guess for an extra 1d6 healing to everyone).  Also, if you're taking passage on a wagon or a ship, or any vehicle where you could reasonably short rest on the way to your destination, make some Goodberries with the Warlock spell slot (Goodberries last for 24 hours) and then short rest to your destination.

And you still have enough levels before level 20 to get a 9th level spell in bard.  Versatility isn't bad either--like...8 cantrips, all the versatility from being a bard, access to any level 1 Cleric spell given preparation (skipping the ones that use Wisdom, but that still gives Detect Magic, Comprehend Languages, various buffs--and just generally frees up space for 8 first level spells between the Warlock/Bard spell list).

I mean, this probably isn't ~actually~ that great, because you're level 9, you could have had 5th level spells right now, and you're sitting on third level spells (with one 4th level slot).  And most of your good healing is out of combat.  You have no burst, essentially.  But the amount of sustain makes me giggle (and it's both excellent sustain healing, and solid sustain DPS).


(Not sure how to justify this lore-wise.  Servant of Cthulu who wants all the world to be fed with berries so that there's tons of well-fed humans to eat when Cthulu consumes the world?)

[Dark Holy Elf]

From my reading of the rules, at least, Disciple of Life would not work on Goodberry.

Disciple of Life: "Whenever you use a spell of 1st level or higher to restore hit points to a creature, the creature regains
additional hit points equal to 2 + the spell’s level."

Goodberry is not a spell that restores hit points to a creature. Rather, it creates magical berries, which can later be used for healing. The distinction definitely matters here, since it DoL clearly states "whenever you use a spell to restore hit points". For Goodberry, the spell use and restoring of hit points are separate events.

EDIT: A life cleric similarly would not be allowed to craft more potent potions, by my reading of the rules.

Aura of Vitality has a much better case to work. The healing is still caused by your bonus actions while concentrating on the spell, so there's a much stronger case that you are "using a spell to restore hit points". Additionally, it's an evocation, same as Healing Word, Cure Wounds, etc., rather than transmutation, which creates more of a flavour reason for it to work. And... yeah Aura of Vitality is pretty amazing when not restricted to Paladin spell slots, even before this passive, which admittedly makes it even better. Same with Ranger spells.

Seems like a fun build, though. Can't go wrong with Eldritch Blast + amazing healing.

[metroid composite]

Supposedly it has been ruled to work together:

http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/rules-answers-august-2015

If I’m a cleric/druid with the Disciple of Life feature, does the goodberry spell benefit from the feature?
Yes. The Disciple of Life feature would make each berry restore 4 hit points, instead of 1, assuming you cast goodberry with a 1st-level spell slot.

Of course, the DM could always rule otherwise, in which case your out of combat healing could be Prayer of Healing and heal 2d8+cha+4 to up to 6 different targets in a level 2 slot (72 healing if you heal 4 people off of 5 Cha).  It's not as hillarious sounding as piles and piles of berries though (and you need to take one more level in Warlock so that you have level 2 Warlock spell slots).

[metroid composite]

Anyhow, so the Great Cthulu Worshiping Berry Dispensing Sailor Scout...

Is actually an interesting exception to the "3 stat" types.  This is a 4 stat character.  Cha, obviously.  Need at least 13 Wis to multiclass Cleric.  Con (concentration checks and all that; also HP).  And...one of strength or dex for AC (Priest gives you medium armour and heavy armour; medium uses dex, heavy uses str).  I think we want medium here--heavy armour gets 1 more AC, but getting a stat to 15 costs quite a bit more than getting a stat to 14.  Or if you go for the 13 str heavy armours...you can match that AC with 12 dex.

Is this a legit case for vanilla human?  Pointbuy options....

15/13/13/12/11/9

With a vanilla human gives 16 Cha, 14 Con, 14 Dex, 13 Wis, 12, 10

Although...honestly, I think it's better to have wis at 14, and one of the other two stats at 9 or 11.  Like...Wis even with nothing else going for it is a fairly relevant stat (Will saves, perception) and there is something else going for it here, which is 3 Cleric spells prepared per day instead of 2 (and better spellcasting mod if you do use any of that).

Hmm...is there an option with two 15s?

15/15/13/12/8/8

Technically yes, but...the three low stats end up at 13/9/9, which...feels like a waste.

But wait, human is actually very thoroughly outclassed by another race...Half-Elf, which give +2 to Cha, and +1 to two other stats (why two?)  Oh, and Darkvision, sleep immunity, two skill proficiencies (the fuck why?) and an extra language.  This race...why is it so comparatively OP?  Anyhow...Half Elf options look like...

14/14/13/13/10/9

Trading a point in a dump stat for two skill proficiencies and darkvision sounds worth.  (Really, vanilla human should be the one with two skill proficiencies, and Half-Elf shouldn't get those).  But wait, there's more.  If you get greedy, and try to go for two 16s and two 14s...

15/14/13/13/9/8

You...still can't!  (But the three low stats now look like 13/9/8 instead of 13/9/9, so it's actually functionally identical...while getting the giant pile of Half-Elf bonuses like extra skills.  Having a +2 instead of a +1 to a stat that was definitely going to 16 can mean two extra points to redistribute elsewhere in the pointbuy).

Mmm...I my gut reaction is that I like the non-greedy one better (ending up with 16/14/14/14/10/9 instead of 16/16/14/13/9/8, assuming we go with Half-Elf).  Although...concentration checks are a pretty big deal.  I mean, in terms of mod differences the greedy build gets CON 2->3 in exchange for WIS 2->1 and let's say STR 0->-1.  That...actually sounds like a good trade, TBH.

What about...15 str build instead of dex for the +1 AC wearing full plate, but going with 14 con?  Hmm...15/14/13/13/9/8 or 14/14/14/13/9/8 (doesn't matter which) lets you end up with 16/15/14/14/9/8.  OK, this might be better than the above.  I will trade +1 on concentration saving throws for +1 AC--not getting hit is actually a good way to avoid breaking concentration.  And +1 AC also increases durability much like 3 Constitution would.  So...let's call that a tie, maybe.  But if that's a tie, 14 Wis is a lot nicer than 13 Wis.

So is that it, then, that's the best?  Mmmm...well...there's always Variant Human to consider because feats (with like...probably War Caster for the feat?  Maintaining concentration is cool.  Not needing hands--eh, with eldritch blast, a weapon wasn't really needed, but sure.  Magic on attack of opportunity is cool).  What would this look like?  Only 2 stat increases so like...  15/14/13/13/9/8, which would become 16/14/14/13/9/8.  Or...if not War Caster then like...something that gives +1 in one of these stats, like Resilient (Con) to have proficiency in Con saves, or Observant, because +5 to Perception and Investigation is a thing.  (Obviously the stat feats Resilient/Observant let you go 16/14/14/14 instead of 16/14/14/13).  Mmm...well either of the con save feats will do a whole lot more for concentration than +1AC or +1 Con.

Of course, Half-Elf can take War Caster too, eventually, so let's look a bit longer term here.  Let's say we really do think War Caster is the shit (TM), to the point that we take it at level 4, instead of an ASI.  Half Elf is now 16/15/14/14/9/8 with a pile of extra racial bonuses.  And...Variant Human (War Caster) is now 18/14/14/13/9/8.  So...we're looking at the Half-Elf with 1 more AC, and one more Wis modifier.  In exchange for +1 Cha, which is...kind-of important (more damage on all Eldritch Blasts, hitting Eldritch Blasts, better combat heals, save DC on status spells, etc).  And this gap is going to stay for a long time...like...because of all the multiclassing, the next ASI is level 11 (when Variant Human goes to 20, and Half-Elf goes to 18).  The gap doesn't close till level 15, when Half-Elf who got War Caster would also get 20 Cha.  That's...basically forever (trying to remember the last campaign I saw that got to level 15).  There's an argument that the Heavy Armor setup when you get to 15 can't be matched for AC by the Variant Human, but the Variant Human can get like...the Shield Master feat on 15 or something, so...nah.

So...it does depend a little on whether you think War Caster is more valuable than +2 Cha.  (I think it's pretty clear that +2 Cha is better than +1 Strength, +1 Wis--technically is an option at level 4 with Variant Human to match the Half-Elf stats, but yeah, no >_>).  If War Caster is more valuable than +2 cha, then Variant Human has a big advantage all the way till level 15.  If it's not...well now we compare the benefits of War Caster to 14 Wis and Full Plate, and Half-Elf bonuses.  The full plate build is more durable (both in the +1 overall AC and in Will save).  Can prepare one extra Cleric level 1 spell.  The War Caster build can maintain concentration much better on...concentration spell of choice, and use spells on attack of opportunity (notably Eldritch Blast with the right invocation would knock opponents away--which sort-of adds to durability too, and adds to damage obviously).  Mmm...I'm leaning War Caster.

So ok: Half-Elf is silly how good it is when Cha matters, but Variant Human is probably better if there's an even moderately important feat to get.  (Basically Variant Human is better in that scenario unless there's two different Attributes that are more valuable to +2 than getting that feat...and if that's the case then the feat wasn't that important in the first place).

[metroid composite]

Is there any other race that stands out as mildly OP like Half-Elf or Variant Human?  Hmm....well...there's Halfling.

Halflings have this racial trait that if they roll a 1 on...basically any time they roll a D20 for any reason, they can reroll it (once).  This is actually moderately significant--it raises the average value of all their rolls by 0.5.  Or, thinking about it another way, it's kind-of similar to the Vanilla Human's +1 to all stats (which translate into +0.5 on rolls on average--D20s normally average 10.5, will now average roughly 11).

I mean, ok, not exactly.  Stats can add to damage on damage rolls--unaffected.  Dex adds to AC, which this won't affect.  Con adds to HP which this won't affect.  Having cetain stats lets you use heavy armour or multiclass--this luck stuff does not help you there.

But the thing is, halflings have racial stat bonuses on top of this "lucky" trait.  +2 to Dex.  +1 to...either Cha or Con.

So...ok, Cha, we can work with this for the Super Berry Cthulu Sailor Scout.

15/14/14/12/8/8

After racial bonuses this becomes 16/14/14/14/8/8

I mean, could be worse.  Worked out better as a stat array than Variant Human (as expected when it has 3 stats to add, not 2).

Is this worth-it over variant human with the War Caster feat?  Ehhh....let's come back to that.

Is this worth-it over the Half-Elf stat array with heavy armor 16/15/14/14/9/8?  Mmm...well Half-Elf with this setup gets 1 more AC, and two more skills.  Halfling gets +0.5 to all skills, which counterbalances the two extra skills a bit.  Halfling gets +0.5 to all saves.  Halfling gets +0.5 to attack rolls.  Mmm...the winner actually isn't obvious to me here.  Halfling deals slightly more damage, but has slightly less durability.

[Luther Lansfeld]

Halfling is the best class for smugness toward fellow players though.

[Grefter]

It depends what elements of the character you want to emphasize.  If you want to push the Sailor Scout part you want Half Elf.   If you want Cthulhu worshipping you go halfling.

Halfling is the best class for smugness toward fellow players though.

Says the Elf loving Half-Elf player.

[Luther Lansfeld]

I was a halfling for the majority of the campaign!

[metroid composite]

It depends what elements of the character you want to emphasize.  If you want to push the Sailor Scout part you want Half Elf.   If you want Cthulhu worshipping you go halfling.

And what's the reason to go Human? >_>


Aaaaanyhow, I've been looking at the multiclassing spell table, and I've determined that it's a bit unfair to classes with slow spell progression.  Take Eldritch Knight--a level 20 Eldritch Knight has knows level 4 spells.  In fact has known level 4 spells since level 19.  If we for some reason were to declare this character a multiclass, though, then they would not know level 4 spells.

The reality of Arcane Trickster and Fighter is that, once you reach level 3, your spellcasting level is more like 1/3 rounded up.  The reality of Ranger and Paladin is that, once you reach level 2, your spellcasting level is more like 1/2 rounded up.

I would propose, take all the classes you have spellcasting power in (so exclude level 1 paladins/rangers, and level 1-2 fighters and rogues) add 1x full + 1/2x semi + 1/3x ternary levels.  At the very end, take the total and round up.

So like...the hardest you can abuse this is something like Fighter 5, Paladin 3, for 5/3 + 3/2 = (10+9)/6 = 3 + 1/6, which rounds up to 4.  Which means you're spellcasting level 4 at 8th level...not bad, but Paladins can do this normally, and be spellcasting level 5 at level 9 (which you won't be).  By comparison, with this same class combination and level combination under the existing rules as written, you would be spellcasting level 2...which is silly, because a level 5 fighter or level 3 paladin would be spellcasting level 2 -without- multiclassing (and they both could be higher than that by monoclassing).


Is there some really strong combo that WotC is trying to prevent here?  Like...I could see maybe the danger of Paladin smites with lots of spell slots, but like...You get Smite at level 2 which rounds nicely.  Paladin 2/Cleric X works exactly the same way under both systems.  Fighter/Rogue get an ASI on level 4, so a 4 level dip could avoid sacrificing an ASI and could contribute 1 1/3 (which can round up to 2) levels.  But then again, Fighter also gets an ASI on level 6, which already played nice with the old table.  Regardless, when people talk about dipping into Fighter as a spellcaster, it's usually for like...Action Surge on level 2, and then get out of the class.


But honestly, there's already a lot of strong incentives against going like...5 levels into one spellcaster, 5 levels into another given the spells known mechanic.  You can only learn spells that class would be able to learn up to level 5.  You want to actually have high level spells learned, and you screw yourself if you do that much multiclassing.  Seems weird that on top of that, semi-spellcasters get fewer spell slots than they would get if they didn't multiclass.

[Dark Holy Elf]

That's a rather good point. I'm not aware of any particular abuse that your rule change would propose, and I think it's a good one, since it's more consistent with how the spell tables of the secondary and tertiary spellcasters are laid out.

[Grefter]

There only reason to play Human is if you hate playing the right Race (Dwarf).

Honestly, I think the reasoning is probably multi pronged. 

Your formula is too """"""complex"""""" for Fifth which is pushing that simplified mechanics wagon hard.  It exposes a lot of the moving parts to the design, you would need to define a class's spell progression rate etc. Iit is also not pushing the idea that because of the scalable spells lets you always do something useful with a spell and a spell slot down a bit.
Finally, it is ham fisted but it does hard cap potential abuse with multi classing which after Third and Fourth I think was high on the to do list, especially if invoking AD&D feels.


Not that I wouldn't say totes go for it in house rules.

[metroid composite]

Your formula is too """"""complex"""""" for Fifth which is pushing that simplified mechanics wagon hard.  It exposes a lot of the moving parts to the design, you would need to define a class's spell progression rate etc.

But the manual ALREADY has a spell progression rate defined per class

The current formula is

[Bard/Cleric/Druid/Sorcerer/Wizard] + FLOOR(1/2(Paladin)) + FLOOR(1/2(Ranger)) + FLOOR(1/3(Eldritch Knight)) + FLOOR(1/3(Arcane Trickster)

The proposed formula is

[Bard/Cleric/Druid/Sorcerer/Wizard] +CEILING(1/2(Paladin/Ranger) + 1/3(Eldritch Knight/Arcane Trickster))


I WILL agree it's slightly harder to calculate, sure, because of two reasons

1. People find adding fractions scary, and you might have to add 1/2+2/3.  SPOOOOOOOOOOOKY FRAAAACTIONS
2. You need to remember that the slower progression classes don't have spellcasting at level 1 (or 2 for EK and AT), whereas the first formula well...actually technically you need to remember that for the first formula too, otherwise you would end up reducing your number of spell slots sometimes (Ranger 3 Paladin 1, if you were to use the multiclass table, would end up with Ranger 2 amount of spell slots, LOLOLOL).

Finally, it is ham fisted but it does hard cap potential abuse with multi classing which after Third and Fourth I think was high on the to do list

But what multiclass abuse is it stopping?

Bearing in mind that all of the full casters (Bard/Cleric/Druid/Sorcerer/Wizard) have full progression and get to share full progression when multiclassing, and have many of the best multiclassing features for a full caster.  (Like...sure, Fighter's a great multiclass option, but mostly for a physical character not a magical one).

I was expecting to find something really super broken, and...haven't found anything terribly abusive so far.

[Grefter]

SPOOOOOOOOOOOKY FRAAAACTIONS

Thats what the quotes were for.  oh noes not fractions

And... yeah I don't think there is really anything broken in what you have, and you are right in that the existing thing still is pretty gravy as a faster mix.

5th Ed is extreeeeeeemely conservative after 4th didn't perform as well as they wanted and after the really harsh consumer backlash from parts of the audience.  It is also the general direction Wizards seems to be going with its main line stuff (Magic has become quite conservative in its design in its dotage in my opinion) and well, I can't blame them after the rampant success of the more of the same that is Pathfinder.

So with that in mind, yeah I don't really expect to always find broken stuff in a space that they have strayed away from just in case of broken.  I am fairly confident someone probably even ran the same numbers you did and still went meh lets not.

[Tide]

So I wasn't sure where to put this - MC, feel free to separate this into a separate topic, although I personally didn't think it was necessary since I don't expect a whole lot back on it. Been playing Fates and getting child units. Those who saw my Awakening file know that I spent a lot of time working out some of that stuff even though it is largely a) pointless b) mostly for the shinies. This is probably even more true in Fates because there's no super DLC that really requires uber stuff and at least one version of the game, grinding isn't even possible unless you pay2win.

Still I wanted to talk about pairings because it really is interesting. To be more specific, I'm looking at Revelations since you get to use everybody in that game, which opens the doorway for more options/permutations. There is no way to create an unbeatable/uncounterable unit. What I want to do is list out the value of certain pairings and why they are good for those that are interested. Obviously if you are going on a strict efficiency scale, the best pairing are going to be the units in which you are using. Instead, with this I want to focus on two things:

1) Ways in which all child units are feasibly usable
2) Ways in which the pairing doesn't hose the parents completely.

Side notes! I will not be considering Corrin in this because Corrin can be customized to make any 1 child / 1st gen character better by customizing his bane/boon and talent. Also, if you want to make a super unit, you are best off trying to do that with a 3rd gen Kana as she will be inhereting the mods from the 2nd gen parent for big cap stacking. And yes, I said 'she' because to optimize, you must use a Male Avatar. On the plus side, Female Corrin can S rank with any 1st gen character and you will not be short of getting a kid unit.

Also, skill buying. I do not consider them to be a regular thing since you may not have a good connection to get them. It also dilutes some of the uniqueness from the pairings. Theoretically, most skills can be bought on any unit just because of Corrin's customization - so if you had enough time and patience, you can marry Corrin off multiple times across multiple playthroughs to pass all the skills that you need. Just that this will literally take ages.

Pairings in FE Fates -
The most interesting aspect about the pairings process is that a female can only be a mother to one child*. This means that there is an opportunity cost to every pair that you make as it shuts out the ability for all the kids to take their best option since some of them have an overlapping choice (sup Charlotte). So what do you do? Well, once decision is to make everyone take either a 2nd or 3rd choice mom, thereby giving everyone some use, although no one becomes their best. Another choice is the opposite, where you sacrifice the well being of one or two kids to make the other one or two much stronger. Ultimately, the first choice is usually better. Your army is the sum of parts, not the strength of one unit. As noted before, no one unit is uncounterable, so it seems unwise to put everything into one basket. Also, by taking a 2nd or 3rd best choice, it offers more possibilities for the parents to not be completely hosed since you get more options on who they should marry.

*The exception to this rule is Female Corrin and Azura. Both characters bring a child of their own. This means that the choice for a father affects two kids instead of one. Although in Corrin's case as noted, you will want a Male Corrin instead if you were going for the best Kana possible. In no particular order...


Seigbert
Father: Xander
Base Class: Cavalier
Secondary Class: Wyvern Rider
Notable mothers: Hinoka, Charlotte

Seigbert is a more well balanced tank than his dad (better Speed/Res most notably), but doesn't have his dad's awesome weapon. Also his unique passive encourages him to be more of a support unit versus being an offensive one. There are several ways you can play him. Since his personal encourages you to use him as support, you can load him down with support skills / rallies or you can stick him more in the front lines for tanking.

Charlotte as mom -
Seigbert's most recommended mom is often Charlotte. It wrecks his defenses somewhat, but gives him Rally Strength + Rally Defense on base. On the further upside, Charlotte jacks up the physical offense of any child, so this also gives you a more offensive Seigbert, who can build Axes and carry it to one of his many alternative classes (Paladin being like the only one that doesn't support it). However, this pairing is more notable for making Xander even better. And since Xander is pretty top tier on his own, it's easy to see why this pairing is often suggested. The one downside to this is that Charlotte doesn't really get as much out of it as Xander and Seigbert. Armored Blow helps her defenses somewhat but that's only one Player Phase and she gets no boost to her iffy accuracy.

Hinoka as mom -
This creates a more defensive/supportive Seigbert. It gives you a Seigbert with natural Rally Defense/Rally Speed, which is pretty cool. And while you don't get axes, you *do* get lances. More important in this pairing is deciding what skills Hinoka should pass down. Worth passing down are Lancefaire (for damage), Quixotic (one of the best skills for any offensive unit), Rally Resistance (if making Seigbert do rallies) or Inspiration (to stack on to his personal). Hinoka can get the latter two unlocked via A+ with Azura as she will gain Troudabour as a base due to sharing Sky Knight for a primary class. In addition, this evens out Seigbert's growths and doesn't impose on penalty on his defensive stats. On the pair up front, you still get speed from Hinoka, and more Res, which is useful for Xander. Xander can pick up Warding Blow too in his case, to take out mages on Player Phase, although he loses Sol for survivability. I personally prefer this pairing because Hinoka gains more from the Cavalier class sets than Charlotte does from Xander. It is however Revelations only.

Xander's A+ Reclass
Xander can get access to Samurai set classes from Ryoma or Ninja from Kaze. Both help him out for fixing up his weak areas so it's more of a question of what you may want to pass down. The best option may be Replicate since doubling up your Xanders means he can be at 2 places at once, and 2 Seigberts means he can Rally / Support two separate groups. Swordmaster lets you pass down better tools for offense though (Vantage/Astra/Swordfaire all have some merits). Xander himself likely wants Ryoma as an A+ because giving him Swordfaire + Trample means you get big damage off anything that isn't mounted. And anything that is, you can use weakness hitting weapons and give them a bad time anyway. Still both options are good and depends on more of what you want to do.

Seigbert's Wife
I'm still working this out but from what I've got, Velouria is a mutually beneficial option. Since you can't inherent beast classes, Velouria gives Seigbert her fighter secondary, which opens the doorway to those options Charlotte provides. Meanwhile, Velouria very much likes Aegis from Paladin to help give her M-dur a slight boost and Wolfsenger can't attack at 2 range, so Aegis can be a bit of deterrrent. Velouria's also more of an offensive unit too, so Seigbert's support is definitely going to be more useful versus someone who may be in the back lines. if you went with Charlotte as mom, Caeldori can give Seigbert Rally Speed if that's your plan but there's probably a better wife for offensive options. Not sure though.

Seigbert's A+ Reclass
Shiro gives Seigbert the Spear Fighter line so he can pick up Lancefaire and Quixotic. On the other hand, going with Forrest gives you Rally Resistance and Inspiration. Iggy is a third option with Pavise, but that's probably not as good since you lose out 1 available re-class and Pavise doesn't help out as much as offensive Seigbert or Support Seigbert. Certainly makes the best defensive option. Part of this is going to be dependent on what Hinoka passed down (if she is Seigbert's mom). If you've already got skills on one side, might be better to get the re-class into the other.

Shiro
Father: Ryoma
Base Class: Spear Fighter
Secondary Class: Samurai
Notable mothers: Kagero, Rinkah, Oboro

Unlike his counterpart, Shiro personal encourages you to play him as an on point unit. He's also innately more offensive thanks to his default class set. Like Siegbert though, he doesn't have his dad's godlike weapon, so his offense isn't going to be as great, but it will still be pretty top notch. You can either have him be more bulky, or just straight up stronger. I've seen three mothers who work well for Shiro.

Kagero as mom -
Turns Shiro to be more offensively oriented.  The most notable thing about Shiro is that he naturally has access to Quixotic. And Quixotic is an amazing skill because of the accuracy boost and skill proc boost. Kagero's bad skill growth is partially offset by this and she gives him Lethality. Normally, it's pretty irrelevant since Skill/4 makes it come up maybe 10% of the time. But Quixotic adds a +15% default chance, so now all of a sudden, that becomes 1 in 4 attacks instead of 1 in 10. She also has the best strength modifier too so yeah, this is mostly an offensive Shiro build. It admittedly, probably isn't the best one because Ninja/Swordmaster doesn't really help Ryoma or Kagero all that much respectively. But, Replicating your Ryomas so he can lay down the godlike offense at two different spots is pretty amazing.

Rinkah as mom -
Similar to Charlotte, Rinkah doesn't help Shiro as much as it helps out Ryoma. Ryoma is a godlike unit, so making him even better is pretty good. The fact that it doesn't hurt Shiro though makes this a great sell. What does Rinkah give Ryoma better than the other two? Well her pair up mods offers raw defense, which Ryoma doesn't get from Kagero. She also passes Blacksmith to Ryoma, where he can carry his Sword rank and then learn LANCEBREAKER, which nerfs about the only thing that could hit him. She pass Oni Savage down to Shiro, who can also make use of Lancebreaker, but he also gains Deathblow and Counter for skills. It does neuter his offense some thanks to Rinkah's bad offensive mods, but it gives you the bulkiest Shiro out of the three.

Oboro as mom -
Kind of the inbetween option. Oboro gives Ryoma Spear Fighter and because Shiro already has Spear Fighter, he takes his mother'secondary line, which is Apothecary as his third class tree. Giving Ryoma Spear Fighter is notable as it provides him with Lancefaire, which he can carry into the Sky Knight secondaries, and if you are so inclined, make him YOLO since you can also get Quixotic for those Astra procs. Oboro's growths gives you the most balanced Shiro in terms of offense and defense, but Apothecary as a class tree means you also get a Shiro who has Replicate. Also, shouts to giving him blue hair so he can look more like IKE.

Ryoma's A+ Reclass
Ninja or Cavalier. Gee, this looks familiar. If you took Kagero for a spouse, Cavalier becomes your only option. If you took one of the other two, Ninja is probably the better one just to duplicate your Ryomas and spreading the Rajinto love all over the map. Oboro as a spouse does make Cavalier debatable since you do get some nice stuff there (Armored Blow, Luna/Aegis for skill procing with Quixotic) and you will have Lancefaire to back you up + more probable weapon ranks.

Shiro's Wife
Midori really wants Shiro for a husband, but Shiro not so much as he doesn't get much out of the deal (outside of Replicate - but if you passed it down or Oboro is his mom...). Mitama might be the best spouse for both since Mitama really appreciates Quixotic and Shiro appreciates Renewal. Especially so if he had a bulkier mom like Oboro or Rinkah. Caeldori gives you those Sky Knight options for mobility. Otherwise, Sophie could make good use of his class, and he can make good use out of Cavalier. Probably the best overall option if not for...

Shiro's A+ Reclass
Very limited choice unfortunately! Also partly what makes Rinkah betters as a mom since no one else can pass him that reclass. He gets Ninja, Cavalier and Archer. Archer's clearly the weak link and Ninja and Cavalier have merits as discussed before. Obviously, you reclass into the one that you didn't pass/marry into. But if you married Kagero and then had Shiro marry Sophie, then the only class he can gain access to is Archer, which he doesn't have much use for. I guess Quick Draw is okay, but that's kinda of shallow.

[Tide]

Dwyer
Father: Jakob
Base Class: Troudabour
Secondary Class: Cavalier
Notable mothers: Azura, Beruka, Selena, Peri

Dwyer's in a really odd place. His overall growths are extremely average by default, so he really relies on having a good mother to be better. On the other hand, he's helped by one major supporting factor: If you are playing as FeMC, Jakob is your primary retainer, and he will very likely be able to build support ranks much faster, which means his availability is very good (unlike some of the other kids) and can theoretically can get a first choice mom before anyone else. He's probably actually the first case where you need to decide if you want to give him his best mom or if you're okay with him taking a worse one to benefit everyone else. In the end, he's supposed to be a hybrid attacker, but he's better off as a physical unit just due to his secondary class or a support unit like the steward that he is.

Azura as mom -
One of Dwyer's big problems is his iffy Skill. He's decent in most other areas, but his Skill growth can really use a boost and he will appreciate having more Speed and Luck too. Azura helps him out with all these areas. Not only that, but she sets him up to be a good rally unit (passing down Rally Speed) and gives you two mobile flying staff users through Jakob and Dwyer himself later on. Also helps that Sky Knight classes uses Lances, so Dwyer can carry that Lance rank through his other classes too.

Beruka as mom -
A much tankier Dwyer who can also work as a Rally unit. It helps him out with his Skill problem due to Beruka's high growths there and he gets Rally Defense out of the deal + Flight. This focuses on further developing the physical end of his stats but costs you some speed in the end.

Selena/Peri as mom -
Both of these options are the tertiary options, where you stick Dwyer with leftovers. Both work but give you a different Dwyer. Selena ups his Bulk pretty notably (overall boost to all defenses and speed) while Peri ups his physical offense. Selena passes down an arguably better class tree through 3 breakers versus Peri who passes down Dark Mage which doesn't really help Dwyer as she kills his Mag growth.

Jakob's A+ Reclass
Archer and that's it. He can actually support other units, but Jakob gets nothing out of them cause they all pass down Cavalier and unfortunately, Cavalier is his own Secondary. On the upside, since Jakob's only reclass is Archer, you can actually help out Dwyer's low skill really easily by passing down Certain Blow. This then frees up Azura/Beruka somewhat and you can take one of the other females for Jakob's spouse without completely hosing him over in his weakest stat.

Dwyer's Wife
The rally unit has it easy because you can simply go for a wife that provides the rally that you need the most. For the record, Azura!Dwyer gives you Rally Speed and Resistance, so taking Rhajat and friending Percy gives you both Rally Magic and Rally Defense. Want Strength instead? Then you can marry Velouria! An attacking Dwyer has it harder. He's more likely to play second fiddle in this case, and may want to focus more on who to pass his Class down to since most physical units will appreciate Tomebreaker and Inspiration is always cool.

Dwyer's A+ Reclass
Kiragi's the obvious one for the before mentioned Certain Blow. But if you passed that down to him via Jakob, then you can take Asugi for Ninja or Percy for Wyverns. Asugi's the clear winner due to Ninja upping the Speed/Skill growth and gaining you Shurikenfaire. You would take Wyverns if you're going for a more support oriented build through Rally Defense.

Midori
Father: Kaze
Base Class: Apothecary
Secondary Class: Ninja
Notable mothers: Azura, Mozu, Setsuna

The bane of online players everywhere, at least one part of it. Midori is similar to Dwyer. She's in a really odd place in that by herself, she's not great. To get the most use out of her, you have to pass down a bunch of useful things to her, including a good mom. The difference though is her passive. Lucky Charm is pretty great (compared to Born Stewart) as it sets up things like 90%+ Miracles or turns Midori into an efficient farmer if you know you're going to be doing at least a little grinding. That might be where she will end up being if you don't want to use her for combat. She's probably the first case where using FeMC as the mother makes a whole lot of sense as you can fix some of her iffier areas, while giving her the skills that make her better.  If you're not spending a lot of resources on her, then she just ends up sort of average. A case of where putting a lot of resources  can transform into an amazing payoff.

Azura as mom -
This is another case where Azura's growths can really help save the day. Midori wishes she has slightly more speed and slightly more Resistance. Azura does both, and for those of you that like grinding, gives her (and her son by extension) a meaty +7 Speed cap. Sky Knight can fix those other stat issues and can carry lances out of Merchant. In addition, Azura is the only case, where you can pass Miracle to Midori without needing to resort to skill buying if you're looking at her best mothers. The main downside to this is that Kaze and Azura don't really like each other's primary class (Kaze doesn't get much out of Falcon Knight and Azura doesn't get much from Ninja). And before you say 'Replicate', you can't Replicate Sing. Sadness.

Mozu as mom -
Similar to Azura, you do this pairing mainly to help out with Growths, due to Aptitude. Aptitude Midori is really strong and she can get Bowfaire/Quixotic from Mozu. However, Miracle is harder to come by and you will need to skill buy it either online or through a separate playthrough to get it as Midori's own reclass/marriage options cannot acquire it. Kaze doesn't really get much out of Archer, but Mozu doesn't mind Ninja much, so its probably a better reclass option. As a further upside, Mozu fixes up Kaze's negative Luck cap making your Miracle Midori proc more reliably.

Setsuna as mom -
Passes down Archer, all the Speed Midori will ever need and the Res is pretty good! On the downside, Midori doesn't benefit as much long term since the Archer's skills are a bit weak-ish outside of Bowfaire if you're not lacking Skill. And of course, this doesn't set up Miracle if you're into that. Setsuna also gets nothing out of Marriage from this (Ninja is her secondary) so this hurts the parents more, but gives you a better Midori out of the gate.

Kaze's A+ Reclass
Pretty limited. Kaze only gets Cavalier from all his support options. If you're not marrying Peri, then its definitely useful. Otherwise, it's pointless. As for what to pass down, well, Aegis is a good option, but so is Luna to take advantage of Midori's Skill. Armored Blow, not so much since she will be likely be ranged, but if you want something more definitive versus a proc, go for it.

Midori's Husband
As mentioned, Shiro is probably the spouse Midori wants the most. It gives her Spear Fighter and she gets out of the Deal: Basara for increased Luck, Lancefaire, Quixotic to boost procs (stacks with Lucky Charm), Rend Heaven and 2 Seals, which if you want to use her as support, works great. Basically, that one class tree pretty much fixes everything that you want (short or long term). Past that, she can marry Dwyer/Forrest if you want Tomebreaker or Kiragi for Bowfaire boosting (assuming Setsuna was not her mom).

Midori's A+ Reclass
If you don't have Miracle from inheritance but want it, well...sorry, you're out of luck. So yeah, better hope that her parents can pass it down somehow! On the other hand, you can get Basara from Selkie to get half the package Shiro would give. Midori's only other reclass is Dark Mage which doesn't work well at all with her (since she has no magic growth to start), but you could take Bowbreaker and Lifetaker for additional skills.

[Tide]

Ignatius
Father: Benny
Base Class: Knight
Secondary Class: Fighter
Notable mothers: Beruka, Oboro, Camilla

Iggy reminds me a lot of Oswin growth wise. Unlike Benny, he does have some semblance of speed, but Strength and Defense are still his better stats. He's basically a slightly faster version of Benny at the cost of some defenses, but still plenty strong, especially once class growths are added on top of his personal. He's also one of the harder kids to really fix because of Benny passing down a -2 Speed modifier. Given this, Ignatius actually doesn't compete with most other characters for his preferred mother (usually). On the other hand, because he is harder to fix, he usually also ends up being often neglected as he doesn't bring anything else that his dad can't do outside of better caps.

Beruka as mom -
This is one of those pairings that looks awful on paper but works out in practice. Beruka also has the same bad speed modifier of -2 and she really doesn't bring up his growth in that stat either, so you are guaranteed to get a slow Iggy. Yet at the same time, this doesn't matter. Why? Wary Fighter and Iggy pretty much gets this instantly if you are about Level 20/5 when you go recruit him (the earlier the better). Just as it does for Benny, it kills Double Attacks so all of sudden, you've found a way to a) make the -2 speed mod from both Benny and Beruka trivial b) stacked up his defensive modifiers so he ends up being very tanky c) given everyone access to class options they want. Benny loves Wyvern Rider because he can go to Wyvern Lord with the exact same weapon classes and gain much more mobility, although at the cost of arrow weakness. All the classes he has also gets to use Axes, so that Axefaire on Berserker and Trample from Malig Knight become devastating, which is good because Benny would only hit once. For Beruka, she gets Knight's class tree and Wary fighter can help make her AS not matter. This is important since if you are trying to utilize her passive, many of the 1-2 range weapons have a steep AS penalty. Wary Fighter makes them a non-issue. You end up with two rather tanky units and a strong defensive kid out of this package. Later on, you also get Pavise and Beruka's high skill can make that come out decently.

Oboro as mom -
Since Benny and Beruka pretty much want to marry each other, these other pairings don't matter as much but probably still worth a mention. Oboro works as a secondary mom if you're not interested in slapping Wary Fighter on Iggy. In return, Spear fighter is a great class tree and works for Benny for giving him Lancefaire and Quixotic so Pavise can proc more often. Benny's atrocious speed means he has almost no avoid, so Quixotic's double edgedness almost doesn't matter. You also get a bunch of seals which makes attacks on Benny when he's tanking very devastating. Oboro doesn't get as much out of this since she actually has speed so Wary Fighter isn't as big of a boon as it is for Beruka. However, she does get Pavise and Armored Blow. Iggy ends up being faster and has access to two faire skills and can swap as needed.

Camilla as mom -
While Oboro is Revelations only, Camilla is available on Conquest, but like the above, this likely won't come up because almost no one else would want Beruka and too many people would want Camilla. Camilla gives the same advantages to Benny as Beruka does. The downside is that Camilla doesn't make good use out of Knight (although Pavise/Armored Blow helps) and it wastes Camilla's magic growths on Iggy, who wants to be nowhere near a magic weapon as he has pretty much no natural growth there. Still, if you've paired up Beruka with someone else, Camilla does work for both Benny and Iggy and Camilla is going to be a great unit regardless so the hosing doesn't hurt her all too badly.

Benny's A+ Reclass
Pretty limited IIRC. He actually gets nothing on Conquest because Keaton and Arthur are both jerks and pass him Fighter, but Benny has Fighter secondary so he won't get a parallel class. The only reclass he actually has is Diviner from Hayato on Revelations. While Benny makes zero use out of Onmoyoji, he doesn't mind Basara since he carries his lance ranks there and can acquire Quixotic and Rend Heaven, which you would need to marry Oboro to do otherwise. He can then pass on one of these to Iggy. For the record, Beruka can pass the other half to Iggy too because she can also A+ Oboro. Now ain't that great?

Ignatius's Wife
Not very many people in the second gen make great use out of Knight other than Iggy since they all have some semblance of speed. Most of the women in particular are going to be quite fast and the one that you might think of as being a little sluggish (Velouria) can overcome her problems with a good mother. To make matters worse, Velouria also has Fighter secondary so Iggy would get nothing out of the deal. His best partner might actually be Caeldori although it is Revelations only.  As strange as it might sound, a tanky Caeldori will have lower offensive stats and wouldn't mind the extra bulk the Knight classes give her. In return, she passes Sky Knight classes to him. In particular, there's Warding Blow, which adds a tremendous amount of Res on Player Phase and Rally Speed, which he makes surprisingly good use of if Beruka/Camilla is his mother. He will get Rally Strength/Defense by default, so adding Speed gives you a Tri-fecta of great Rally boosts.

Ignatius's A+ Reclass
Unlike his marriage choices, Iggy actually gets more from reclassing. You've got Wyvern Rider from Percy, Cavalier from Seigbert, Troudabour from Forrest and Ninja from Asugi. Wyvern Rider should be the obvious one if you've picked a mother other than Beruka /Camilla. Past that though, the others all have some merits. Cavalier adds Aegis to Iggy's natural Pavise, Troudabour gives you Insipiration and Rally Res, which makes Iggy more supportive, and adds more utility when holding a chokepoint. You also get Tomebreaker for those pesky mages which can stack with Warding Blow if you're worried about them. Ninja however might be the best option. You end up with Replicate to double his presence, Poison Strike to weaken enemies even if you can't OHKO, and of course Lethality to stack with Quixotic assuming you've passed it down from Benny. Lots of good options here. 

Caeldori
Father: Subaki
Base Class: Sky Knight
Secondary Class: Samurai
Notable mothers: Oboro, Hinoka

Oh hey, it's not!Cordelia. Unfortunately, as much as Subaki thinks he's Mr.Perfect, his use is pretty limited. If you want to get Caeldori, you pretty much have to marry Subaki off while he's still useful. Otherwise you relegate to grinding. This can hurt Caeldori as it can hurt her skill inheritance. On the other hand, she's much more useful than him, and getting her earlier helps a lot more in this case since Subaki pretty much obsoletes himself pretty quickly. As a result, like Iggy, she's often one of the more neglected kids. Either comes in too late, requires too much grinding or doesn't get anything cool from inheritance. Oh, and Subaki passes down unimpressive mods too. DAT +3 SKILL THO.

Oboro as mom -
Of all the women that Subaki can marry, he wants Oboro the most. Not only does Subaki want Oboro, Caeldori really wants Oboro to marry her father too. The main reasons for this? Class tree inheritance. Oboro gives Caeldori Spear Fighter, which means she gets Lancefaire, 2 Seals, Rend Heaven and Quixotic. All these skills are very useful since both Caeldori and her dad have Sky Knight as a default. As for mods, Oboro doesn't provide any significant pluses on offense, which is important if you're looking at making use out of Prodigy. It's at most pretty much a +3 to offense if you're attack power is lower so you can't have too high of a cap in either Strength or magic if you want to try and make it active. So this works out pretty well for all parties except for Oboro herself. She doesn't have much use for Sky Knight, but at least it will give her more Res growth so she can become a more well rounded tank.

Hinoka as mom -
Marrying two primary sky knights results in a parallel class to both. In this case, you get Troudabour for both Subaki and Hinoka. Hinoka honestly doesn't mind this and because you have the same primary, it will pass down Hinoka's secondary which in this case is still Spear Fighter! Pretty cool actually. The main downsides are the opportunity cost (as mentioned Seigbert wants Hinoka as his mother too) and that for mods, you get less defense, more magic defense and slightly more offense. However, the main reason you might want this is obviously the hair color. Don't you want to make Not!Cordelia look more like Cordelia and at the same time make her still relatively useful and not hose either parent?

Subaki's A+ Reclass
You've got Niles on Revelations and Azama by default. Azama's actually pretty cool because Great Master also uses Spears. Thank god, because if I can make using Subaki less awful, then let's make that choice. And the skills aren't too bad either. You can actually pass Counter Magic and Counter if you've picked Oboro as his spouse. Or you can pass the more reliable and ever helpful Renewal. Due to staves healing typically less than past FEs, self healing is pretty cool for staying healthy and saving actions on Player Phase. If you make Niles his buddy, passing Pass seems like the obvious move, although Caeldori won't mind Lucky 7s or Move+1 either for better avoid/mobility.

Caeldori's Husband
See above. Caeldori can make some use out of being bulkier so marrying Iggy for Knight classes do work for her. If you are missing Spear fighter and want to keep her as a Falcon Knight towards the end, marrying Shiro seems like the obvious option. Dwyer can also work, but helps him more than it helps her and you would mainly do it only for Rallying, but is an option on the table.

Caeldorii's A+ Reclass
Lots of good choices here as opposed to marriage. You've got Mitama for Shrine Maiden, which has Renewal and Counter Magic. You also get 2 additional Rallies out of the deal, so if you're trying to turn Caeldori into more of support, this is certainly a decent option. You've got Sophie, which if you want a tankier Caeldori is your best bet. Even if you marry Iggy, you get Aegis out of this deal and since Caeldori would get Pavise, you can get Aegis/Pavise, which is something that not a lot of characters can do. For fun, you can also stack Counter Magic and Counter from her parents, making her very annoying to kill. Finally, there's also Diviner from Rhajat. Onmoyoji probably isn't going to be winning any points, but if you're missing out on Spear fighter, you can at least pick up Basara from her for Rend Heaven and Quixotic.

[SnowFire]

Something about Fates that is a bit different than Awakening optimization is that grinding out off-class skills feels way, way more annoying.  Awakening has EXPonential Growth which means you can Second Seal over to a class that is wholly horrible, get the skills you want, and get out reasonably fast even if the character is fairly helpless in it.  I got Tomebreaker/Vengeance on Cordelia & Aversa without TOO much pain via giving them some side grinding this way (Sorc Cordelia is noooot really a good idea).  The XP map in Fates is not nearly so nice as to send only non-aggressive bags of XP at your character, and has enemies that will actually attack you.   Additionally, Eternal Seals are crazy expensive and require grinding Ghostly Gold a lot if you didn't do the cross-classing in the main game.   If you want to grind the character up in the normal storyline...   I guess this is okay if it's an underlevel character in Birthright/Revelation, as you can use Challenge or Scout maps, but it's really annoying if you don't do this, or on Conquest.  Take an example that requires no breeding, marriage, or friendship silliness at all: Xander can get Trample by switching to Malig Knight.  But...  part of the reason to use Xander is to use Siegfried.  Which he can't do in Malig Knight.  And he needs to be there for 4 levels somewhere in L11-L19, a part of the game that does not screw around.  UGH.  Do not want.  It's similar with a lot of potentially useful skills that you can get via marriage/friendship...  yes, I'd like that skill, but I don't want to go to an E weapon rank for several levels and lose whatever niche this character was filling.  (Less of a concern if you've raised a diverse force larger than the deploy limit, of course, but a big problem if you've only been leveling the deploy max count of characters.)

As a side note, I realize that you're taking into account both "normal game" and "optimized future DLC / PvP", but for Rally skills on males, I'd definitely only want to hype Rallys good for normal usage that don't require crazy cross-classing.  If we're gonna go optimized, skip the cRAzY cross-classing and just get a Fell Brand for Rally Spectrum instead.  Bang, optimal Rally achieved, thx Grima.

Hinoka as mom -
Marrying two primary sky knights results in a parallel class to both. In this case, you get Troudabour for both Subaki and Hinoka. Hinoka honestly doesn't mind this and because you have the same primary, it will pass down Hinoka's secondary which in this case is still Spear Fighter! Pretty cool actually. The main downsides are the opportunity cost (as mentioned Seigbert wants Hinoka as his mother too) and that for mods, you get less defense, more magic defense and slightly more offense. However, the main reason you might want this is obviously the hair color. Don't you want to make Not!Cordelia look more like Cordelia and at the same time make her still relatively useful and not hose either parent?

Tide, speaking truth.  Definitely an issue for Subaki IMO; I was thinking maybe a Sakura match early myself, since hey, Dark Flier/Falcon is an iconic class so having a good magic score should be fine for Caeldori.  But nope, he's kinda locked to marrying Hinoka, a red-haired Corrin-F, or Selena (Revelation only) to get the frue Caeldori experience.  And his support with Hinoka has so far been pretty boring in my Birthright playthrough.  OH WELL.

[Dark Holy Elf]

-FWIW with Xander you can at least spend two of those levels in Wyvern Lord where he at least has a lance rank (and Javelins aren't -that- much worse than Siegfried when Xander can't really double much anyway... worse, to be sure, but he can still serve is same basic role). If you play your cards right you can probably spend just 1.1-2 levels in Malig Knight and while they'll suck you can probably manage to do this on one of the easier paralogues if you really want. Or if you don't want to spend an extra heart seal, you can also blow an arms scroll giving him access to Hand Axes from day 1 in Malig Knight (which at least keeps value if he heads back to Great Knight rather than Paladin).

-Selena as Caeldori's mom gives me some weird circular pseudo-incest vibes which I'd rather avoid. For all that, without having actually read their supports, Selena/Subaki strikes me as a potentially hilarious match.

The downside is that Camilla doesn't make good use out of Knight (although Pavise/Armored Blow helps)
-Great Knight gives Camilla access to a job which still has axe rank and above average move, which is nice enough as an option if you want to avoid arrows with her, for all that I think Hero/Berserker especially are of more value to her (though she can get one or both of these quickly and easily through her retainers).

[metroid composite]

Yes, yes, everyone wants me to post about the Tavern Brawl, which is amazing.

Truth be told the meta hasn't stabilized yet.

Like...the most popular decks are mech Hunter and probably Freeze Mage for #2.  You can beat both decks almost 100% of the time with Elemental Destruction and Antique Healbot.  I'm also a fan of Upgrade and Mana Wraith, as Mana Wraith comes down the turn before mech decks combo out.  It has a bad matchup against freeze mage, but I found out recently that it's actually winnable.  You just never pop their Ice Block, always armor up at every opportunity, and hope their hand fills up with ice blocks.  Not 100%, but better than the near 0 winrate I had when I tried to run them out of ice blocks.  (Faster decks like Target Dummy Bolster can consistently run them out of ice blocks, but Mana Wraith Upgrade was popping the first ice block on turn like...6-7?)  Also worth noting, to get that near 100% winrate against mech hunter, you need to coin mana wraith when you have coin, because while you can kill a turn 2 mechwarper which most of them won't run into a weapon, that requires 3 mana of upgrading which means you wouldn't be able to stop their turn 3 from happening.

Interestingly, the mana wraith decks are bad against the other aggro variants that focus more on 1 drops (Mana Wyrm, murlocs) because they get creatures out before mana wraith comes down, and can often trade profitably with a mana wraith.  On the flip side, if they're like...innervate + anything that costs 10 mana, you win.

Elemental destruction+Healbot just loses to anything with lategame value.  (Like...even Innervate + Loatheb is pretty hard to deal with).  Like...I faced a fist of Jaraxxus deck with that new 2 drop that discards a card when you play it, and draws a card when it dies.  Sure, I can clear their board, but then they draw 3 cards, and fist me in the face a bunch.

The other decks I've tested heavily are murlocs (similar to mechs in the meta, but die more to whirlwind decks).  Target Dummy + Upgrade (pretty solid against a lot of decks; have about a 25% winrate against mech hunter, though, as they can only win with coin, and still need to draw near perfect.

[SnowFire]

As a side comment, Naturalize / Coldlight Oracle is *hilarious* vs. freeze mage.  What a shame that I popped your Ice Block on my turn by Naturalizing my own murloc, time for you to draw into another Fatigue hit before you can recast it.

[Tide]

Something about Fates that is a bit different than Awakening optimization is that grinding out off-class skills feels way, way more annoying.  Awakening has EXPonential Growth which means you can Second Seal over to a class that is wholly horrible, get the skills you want, and get out reasonably fast even if the character is fairly helpless in it.

Agreed there, but I think it has more to do with how they tried to fix grinding by making, as you noted, the DLC maps to actually require some effort. Both the gold and XP maps can kill you so you have to work a bit more for the broken if you so desire. I have mixed feelings about this. On one hand, I think its great that those maps at least make you think a little yet on the other, it kind of ruins the point of them. However, due to the grinding being a bit more difficult, it does make relative availability and ease of recruitment a consideration. It's why I think the comparison between Dwyer and Midori is so interesting.

Dwyer often gets neglected and is considered bad by like almost everyone who does post game. However, he's also probably the kid you are most likely to recruit and his paralogue is really easy. Meanwhile, some people consider Midori to be broken (lolwut) despite the fact that the set up in question literally takes a dozen hours to set up.

But...  part of the reason to use Xander is to use Siegfried.  Which he can't do in Malig Knight.  And he needs to be there for 4 levels somewhere in L11-L19, a part of the game that does not screw around.  UGH.  Do not want.  It's similar with a lot of potentially useful skills that you can get via marriage/friendship...  yes, I'd like that skill, but I don't want to go to an E weapon rank for several levels and lose whatever niche this character was filling.

 

That's part of the reason why I mention some of the pairings even though people usually don't when recommending something. E rank is awful. D is kind of where you want to be at least, but getting past the E phase is painful - especially if you are using a 1 range weapon vs 1-2 range. Compare Charlotte versus Hinoka as Xander's spouse. Sure, Sky Knight might not be the best class for Xander, however, he can carry his Lance ranks into both classes. Meanwhile, with Fighter secondary, Berserker pretty much forces you to start from scratch, even if Axefaire is great skill to take into the Wyvern classes.

The best way I would recommend is what NEB suggested. Using an Arms Scroll there is probably worthwhile. You'll get access to Hand Axes and effective weapons (such as  the Hammer) and can use Irons, which can at least activate proc skills if you have those set. If you married Charlotte to him, then you get the benefit going into Hero and Zerker too.

As a side note, I realize that you're taking into account both "normal game" and "optimized future DLC / PvP", but for Rally skills on males, I'd definitely only want to hype Rallys good for normal usage that don't require crazy cross-classing.  If we're gonna go optimized, skip the cRAzY cross-classing and just get a Fell Brand for Rally Spectrum instead.  Bang, optimal Rally achieved, thx Grima.

Rally Spectrum stacks with the separate Rallies, so truly optimized Rallies needs both the individual ones and Spectrum (for +6 stats). The ones that I have mentioned for Seigberg and Dwyer are relatively painless. Seigbert can Offspring Seal into Great Knight to get ranks in all 3 melee weapons, while Dwyer will have some magic basis for Strategist to pick up Rally Resistance and can get Rally Speed passed to him if necessary from Azura.   Interestingly, Rally Spectrum has 4 range instead of the 2 from individual Rallies but the boost is only +2 instead of +4 now. Individual rallies are still worth learning if you know which ones you'll like to take versus just taking Spectrum.

Great Knight gives Camilla access to a job which still has axe rank and above average move, which is nice enough as an option if you want to avoid arrows with her, for all that I think Hero/Berserker especially are of more value to her (though she can get one or both of these quickly and easily through her retainers).

I completely forgot about Great Knight because as much as it is a mobile tank, Camilla has access to Wyvern Lord which is basically better in that department sans arrows weakness. Although Great Knight merely swaps vulnerabilities (Armored + Beast vs. Flying + Dragon), Bows are clearly much more prevalent than Beast Killers/Hammers so yeah, I agree there. Also, complete control of the Triangle is pretty cool.

For the record, I agree that Hero and Berserker are better. Interestingly, Keaton gives that class line to her (or she can get it from Beruka as you noted) and she is also Velouria's preferred mom. Three guesses as to who Keaton is marrying!

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D&D 5e

Yes, yes I'll get back to politics at some point.

But...while I've been sick, I've spent a good deal of time curled up with the nearest book...which happened to be the 5e PHB.

It got me thinking about how...some classes seem to just stop getting stuff at higher levels.  Like...Circle of the Land druid--they get extra spells known up to level 9...and then nothing more through level 20.  They get new wild shape forms up through level 8...and then nothing new through 20.  They get a decent level 10 ability, a very mediocre level 14 ability (the highest beast has CR8, so it's unlikely to come up in a level-appropriate encounter).  Granted, druids share abilities at 18 and 20...buuut they're both wild shape abilities (which Moon Druid uses much, much better).

Alright, so characters at level 20 not multiclassed.  I'm going to focus on full casters to start...

Wizard

Is a level 20 Wizard good?  Well yes, it's D&D, don't act too surprised.  Some of the paths are really good on top of that.  Like...Illusion gets Illusory Reality, letting you turn something from an illusion spell into a real object.  So...cast a level 1 illusion of a stone wall, and then make it real.  Congrats, you just used a level 1 spell to do what is normally done with a level 5 slot (Wall of Stone is level 5, and a pretty good spell).  And regardless of path, you have lots of versatility, arguably the best spell list, etc.  So like yes, Wizard at level 20 is pretty good.

Warlock

The problem with Warlock at 20 is that the Mystic Arcanum feature (what they get for level 6-9 spell slots) is really trashy compared to level 6-9 spell slots.  Literally one spell known for each level.  No ability to use higher level spell slots.  No second spell for the 6/7 slot.  The choices are about a third of the choices Wizard gets for 6/7/8/9 spells (with two spells Wizard doesn't get; Conjure Fey, which is fine, and Glibness, which is trash).  Fortunately there's pretty strong options at each level...although being locked into one spell forever still hurts.  (Like...Demiplane is a great spell....for Wizard.  For Warlock it means they never use their level 8 spell for anything else ever.  Same for something like True Seeing).

But OK, that's really not the strength of warlock.  Let's focus more on pact magic.  4 level 5 spell slots.  That's awesome, right?  Slam out 4 level 5 spells win a combat, take a short rest, and get all your slots back!  Well...it's not as good as it sounds.  Warlock's level 5 PHB spells are...Contact Other Plane (talk to deities), Dream (talk to people in their sleep), scrying (spy on people), and Hold Monster (aha, a spell that has some value in combat.  Although it's a single target all-or-nothing status that offers the target a saving throw every turn, takes concentration, and lasts a maximum of one minute).  Through the various pacts, there's also Dominate Person (An arguably better status than Hold Monster, but only works on humanoids) Telekinesis (restrained is weaker than paralyzed or charmed, but the spell keeps going if they break out, and you can drop them off cliffs), Flamestrike (fine, but comes with the Fiend path that also gets Fireball, which is more damage when cast at level 5), Hallow (oh wow, this looks like a pretty awesome buff or debuff.  No concentration.  Mass protection from elements or silence or fear or....wait, casting time 24 hours??  WTF?  Nevermind, this sucks), Seeming (mass disguise self?  Uh, ok).

So...I guess it's more like casting a level 4 spell at 5th slot?  Well...again, only four level 4 spells in the Warlock spell list.  There's Banishment, which is pretty good (Two targets, get to save once and then they're gone for the duration of the spell--requires concentration).  Dimension Door is nice to have.  Hallucinatory Terrain is whatever; as much as I hyped up illusion Wizards above...even they don't get too excited for this one.  Blight is...8d8 singletarget damage (for the two paths that don't have fireball, this is good.  Compared to Fireball...cast out of a level 5 slot, Blight is 9d8 averaging 40.5, and Fireball is 10d6 averaging 35.  But you know, multitarget and all that).  The various patrons give some good options at this level (Greater Invisibility and Evard's Black Tentacles jump to mind.  Although...as good as those two spells are, they gain little from being cast out of a 5th level slot instead of a 4th level slot).

So...third level slot?  Now we're talking, with 12 (!!) spells in the default list (and more in other lists).  Although a lot of these also don't gain anything from being cast at 5th level (looking at Hypnotic Pattern, Fear, Gasseous Form, Hunger of Hadar, Major Image, Remove Curse, Tongues).  So...stuff that does scale up is Fly, Counterspell, Dispell Magic, Vampiric Touch.  None of these are super amazing if cast out of a 5th level slot compared to a 3rd.  Regardless, good variety, decent amount of power in this list, even if not much scaling.

So...actual fifth level spells are concentration single target status with per-round saves, almost exclusively.  Buffing, AoE, and battlefield control start at 4th level.  3rd brings lots of stuff.  Hunger of Hadar is a unique warlock spell at 3rd level, with some pretty interesting properties (no save blind while in the area, no save damage--albeit not much at 2d6, difficult terrain, 20ft).  Not sure if that's better or worse than Evard's Black Tentacles, which also makes difficult terrain, also 20ft, and restrains targets and deals more damage on a failed saving throw.  Mmm...actually, due to the way advantage/disadvantage work, blindness doesn't mean a whole lot for Hunger of Hadar, because anyone attacking into the area can't see their opponent either, so the advantage/disadvantage cancels out on both sides.  Restrained is restrained, though.

Oh, quick comparison, Eldritch Blast deals 42 average damage at this level when you hit

So...ok, all hail Cthulu, pick the Great Old One, praise the black tentacles.  Has synergy with the shoving from Eldritch Blast pushing opponents into the tentacles.  Or maybe pick Fiend if you feel like casting more than one non-Eldritch Blast per combat, cause literally all these spells require concentration (as do many of the good Mystic Arcanum) and Fireball does not.  Part of the draw of Warlock is having four pact magic spell slots to burn every combat, and then getting them back with a short rest.  Then again, if you want to burn spell slots in a combat, Dispel Magic, Counterspell, and Dimension Door would be happy to eat those spell slots, and are probably more relevant at 20th level combat than a fireball cast out of a 5th level slot.

So...ok, 4 3rd-5th level spells, depending on what kind of effect you're looking for.  (We'll average this as 4 4th level spells per short rest).  This isn't bad for sustain.  A typical Wizard would have 9 spells in this level range, and be able to gain 3 more on a short rest.  12 spells in that range.  (Plus whatever the wizard can do with 4 level 1 spells, 3 level 2 spells, 1 level 6 and 1 level 7 spell...that's probably more in the 20 range).  Of course, level 20 Warlocks have a capstone where they get one short rest for free, which brings their starting value to 8, so...3 short rests to match the wizard, 4 short rests to out-sustain the wizard?  Sounds...ok.  I don't think you're really going to out-sustain Wizards for the most part, but with enough short rests you keep up fine.

So...Mystic Arcanum are underwhelming.  Pact Magic is...able to keep up given the right playstyle, but can fall behind without short rests.  What are the big advantages?

Well...Eldritch blast is good.  The best Wizard cantrip deals 22 to its 42.  Wizard could take Spell Mastery with Scorching Ray for free Scorching Rays...but that only deals 21 damage.

The other big selling point is Invocations.  Let's see...

I see a lot of hype about Darkness/Devil's Sight "cheese".  That said, being unable to see doesn't do as much as I thought it would.  Makes some spells that require vision uncastable.  Gives disadvantage on their attack rolls (if you can see them, which you can).  Gives you advantage on attack rolls against them.  These are...all nifty, sure, but you could also just take the Minor Illusion cantrip, create an illusory cardboard box over yourself (with small peepholes so that you can see out, and a small hole at arm level to attack out of) and...get the same three benefits (they can't see you, so no sight spells, you have advantage, they have disadvantage).  (You can't move this cardboard box illusion, and an enemy could spend their action doing an investigation check analyzing your illusion to see through it.  But eh, cantrip instead of an invocation, a spell slot, and concentration).  That said, we're talking level 20, and I expect a good number of enemies would be packing some form of Truesight by now, so neither Darkness/Devil's Sight nor Minor Illusion should be pulling that much weight.

That said, some of the others are pretty good.

Witch's Sight.  Not quite Truesight, but really good.

Book of Ancient Secrets for all the rituals (literally).  Most are divination spells, but Leomund's Tiny Hut helps you get short rests, and Find Familiar is a good spell.

Visions of Distant Realms.  Arcane Eye at will, always know what's ahead.

Ascendant Step. Levitate self at will.

One with Shadows.  Invisibility at will that doesn't use concentration.

Eldritch Sight.  Detect Magic at will.  (Although detect magic is also a ritual, so maybe skippable.  Lots of other at will options like Silent Image.  Or whispers of the grave to interrogate people you killed).

(And you probably want a couple of your 8 invocations going into Eldritch Blast).

All in all it seems like Warlock's role (at 20) is heavily divination/scouting out of combat focused.  Rituals get you a large number of Divination spells.  The 5th level pact magic options were 3/4 Divination spells too.  But their invocations in particular--many of the good ones are just big upgrades to what they can see or learn, and stuff that is on all the time like With's Sight (helps avoid surprises for the party).

So...mmm, that's a niche, at least.  (And one that...a Wizard would need to cast like...True Seeing to achieve, a level 6 spell that lasts for one hour.  So...Warlock definitely does this better).  Although the irony, of course, is that the typical Warlock won't have much wisdom to use on perception....

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5e contd

Sorcerer

Spontaneous casters are inherently a little worse than prepared casters in 5e.  Prepared casters get to cast like spontaneous casters, but change their list of spells known every night.

So...ok, metamagic.  Can metamagic break the spell slot economy with high level spells?  With Twin Spell it could.  Twin Greater Polymorph or Twin Foresight would be great.  Basically an extra level 9 spell.  Buuuut these spells aren't on the sorcerer spell list.  The stuff you can twin is like...8th level Dominate Monster; pretty decent, although Dominate Monster is not the best 8th level spell out there.  7th level maybe Plane Shift (the wording is a bit unclear--twin only works on strictly single target spells; plane shift is single target when used on offence...but not when warping friends.  Is it inelligible?  Also you would need to touch two targets).  Maybe on an 8th or lower spell cast via Wish (although again, wording.  Technically Wish is capable of targeting more than one target, if you create a different spell effect with it, so is it ineligible?)  So...you might be looking at 6th level; there's good 6th level stuff to Twin (Disintegrate, True Seeing).  But nothing that makes me think "wow, Sorcerers can get more high level stuff per day."

What Sorcerers are good at is squeezing in more damage.  Empowered Spell will generally up the base damage by about 10 on average (on rolls where it's worth using; not all rolls qualify.  Also this is before save for half).  Quickened Spell lets you use your action on a cantrip (which can be 22 damage)--or a spell that lets you use actions every turn like Sunbeam (27 average damage, AoE, and blinds).  Heightened Spell for disadvantage on saving throws is handy for status effects (disadvantage on spell saves isn't that easy to set up; usually requires a spell like Curse) and can also up DPS.  (Heightened Spell For damage spells...assuming the enemy has a 50% chance to make the save, now it's 25%, which in terms of damage means a 16% increase.  Fireball goes from 21 average damage (28, or 14 on a save) to 24.5 average damage.  Meteor Swarm goes from 105 average (70-140 range) to 122.5 average.  Except heightened spell only works on one target, so doesn't really up AoE damage....

I mean, there's other more defensive uses to metamagic too (use the disengage action, and then quicken a spell). But just in general, Sorcerers seem to squeeze into fewer turns what would take Wizards more turns to accomplish.  (In exchange for a loss in versatility).  Despite their ability to nova, they also probably can sustain pretty well, by getting more out of their lower level spell slots (twin Polymorph), and having a level 20 ability that gets them sorcery points on short rests (which can be converted into spell slots in a pinch).  On the other hand, no ritual casting, which both Wizard and Warlock had.

Druid

So...I'm focusing on level 20 casters.  Level 20 Druids are silly for another reason (if they are moon path).  They can wildshape unlimited times per day.  As a bonus action.  So...bonus action gain 130 temp HP?  Oh, and they can cast a good number of spells in wild shape form.

They are a prepared caster.  Their spell list...has some holes in it (looking at level 9...No wish or True Polymorph), but it's still got good options at most levels (Foresight and True Resurection as level 9s).

So mmm...they tank

Cleric

Umm...hmm...so their spell selection is actually kinda weak.  Level 9 it's like...True Resurrection, which is good...but not useful every day.  Level 8 they have Holy Aura, which is...solid.  (Well...1 minute duration, concentration, give your team advantage on saves, and enemies disadvantage on hitting).  Seems fairly good, but...not sure if 8th level spell worthy.  A lot of the 6th/7th level spells that stand out are unamazing wizard spells (Fire Storm--basically a fireball cast out of a 7th level slot.  Plane Shift--good, but part of it is the travel).  5th level is where they have some good shit, though Contagion--a non-concentration spell that lasts at least 3 turns, and could last a week on failed saves.  Slimy Doom looks really good (disadvantage on Con saves, which helps this last longer, and whenever this creature takes damage it is stunned until the end of its next turn?  WAT?  So...stun lock a boss.  Requires hitting a melee attack, and having a party to follow up, of course).

There's an important role here, of course, and that's that Cleric heals and revives.  But these are usually tasks for after combat.  (In general in D&D...and in most games with decent balance, damage prevention and battlefield control will do more to reduce damage in-combat than healing will restore HP).  Hell, for that matter, damage spells deal more than healing spells.  (Which also means a counterspell on a fireball prevents a lot more damage than a level 3 heal spell...and oh hey look, Clerics don't get Counterspell).  So...really, what you want to be doing is using spells to prevent damage or control the fight, and then burn some low level spell slots to heal up after the fight.  (Or just rest; 5e is built so that you don't really need a dedicated healer).

I'm...honestly looking at Druid and thinking they have a better spell list, though.  Good out-of-combat healing (less in-combat healing options, but stuff like Goodberry heals a lot for a level 1 slot).  More battlefield control with stuff like Reverse Gravity and Stone Wall.  That same really cool level 5 spell that Cleric had (Contagion).  Better level 6-9 options.

Clerics I guess are more front-loaded?  Like...medium armor/heavy armor and shields at level 1, often martial weapons too.  Usually a pretty cool domain feature at level 1.  But not always stuff that scales (like...tempest, use your reaction to deal 2d8 damage to anyone who attacks you within 5 feet.  2d8 is awesome at level 1, and a waste of a reaction at 20).

Bard

So...the bard gets to steal spells from other lists.  it still matters what's on the bard list, as only a few come from other lists.

L9: Bard has great options (True Polymorph, Foresight).  Being a spontaneous caster you probably also want wish.  8th level options are a bit weak, but you can grab like...Maze from another list.  That accounts for both the level 18 magical secrets.  Level 7 you can Forcecage, which is great.  (Level 7 is low enough to slide under the 14 magical secrets, so could pick up something like Simulacrum here).  Level 6 you get Mass Suggestion (excellent non-concentration spell), could use magical secrets for Globe of Invulnerability.  5th level you have Raise Dead and Animate Objects, two very good spells.  Could use Magical Secrets for like...Wall of Force.  Or Contagion.  4th level you have Polymorph and Greater Invisibility.  Could use magical secrets to pick up like...Evards Black Tentacles?  3rd level is where things are a bit dubious.  Hypnotic Pattern is great, but you probably don't want your one third level spell to be concentration.  Leomund's Tiny Hut is great, although you're not a ritual caster so you actually spend a spell slot on it--might be better-left to a party member.  You'd have to use magical secrets for either Fireball or Counterspell if you wanted those as options.  2nd level spells are also a bit lacking (you'd need to use magical secrets if you wanted Mirror Image or Misty Step or Prayer of Healing).

That said, pretty great spells from 9th-4th level without running out of secrets.  3rd is stretched a bit thinner, but i think you want to use at least one secret here, probably 2.  I think letting level 1-2 spell slots be reserved for healing is totally fine, and probably one of the best use of those slots at this level.

So...pretty great spell list; could even be argued as the best list.  Spontaneous caster, so less flexibility than other casters.  And...not as much sustain as some (short rests don't help with spell slots; just heal a bit, and get some bardic inspiration charges).  Bard class features are skill checks.  ALL of the skill checks.  (Their skill checks are no joke at 20.  Double proficiency via expertise is like...+12 o_O.  For 5e, that's a ridiculous skill check bonus).  I mean, the tradeoff is fewer combat features (Cleric and Sorcerer get to fly, all the time, for instance).

Hmmm...brief theorycrafted ranking for 20

1. Illusionist Wizard (The amount of value they can get out of level 1 spells, or large scale illusion spells they cast on previous days and then modify with their class feature breaks the spell economy a bit.  Level 1 wall of diamond.  no spell slot required for my opponents are on difficult terrain and our party is not, and we're hidden from view behind this illusory wall with murder holes giving us advantage).
2. Moon Druid (yeah, their spell selection is merely average.  The level 20 ability though o_O.  That said, "tank with my basically infinite HP" falls apart if you get hit by a status effect).
3. Bard/other Wizard/Sorcerer (these all seem like pretty even tradeoffs.  Most spell flexibility for the Wizard.  Arguably best single day spell list for the Bard.  Ability to unload for the Sorcerer from a spell list that is not bad.
4. Land Druid (Solid spells.  Reasonable distribution with some low level spells that can heal for a lot relative to their level, and high quality high level spells to win fights.  Combine this with being a prepared caster for high versatility, and wild shape having still decent value given that it's infinite and you can cast in it, and it's always handy for scouting.  Outclassed by Bards, I think, but better than Clerics at this level due to a better spell list.  Alternatively, a lot of good Wizard features and spells along with healing and revival spells, but a much shorter spell list).
5. Warlock (Mystic Arcanum have strong spell selections, but are mechanically pretty penalizing.  Invocations are great.  Eldritch Blast is really starting to stand out, like...makes some 4th level damage spells look bad.  Pact Magic is a bit weaker than you'd expect four 5th level slots per short rest to be, more like 3rd-5th range...which is still fine and gives them decent sustain.  Ritual Casting too, for even more sustain).
6. Cleric (Weak high-level spells.  Coulda sworn Clerics had Wish or some Wish equivalent in 3.5; not in 5e!  Class features that don't scale well at 20 like adding 2d8 damage on a weapon attack on a class with no extra attack feature--may as well just use their cantrip).