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Author Topic: Theorycrafting! (Because I like competitive metagames too much)  (Read 134060 times)

Excal

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Re: Theorycrafting! (Because I like competitive metagames too much)
« Reply #675 on: June 13, 2016, 03:47:05 AM »
A trouble in comparing this with FFT (or even LFT) is that battles there are scaled to essentially be 1/day whereas D&D you're looking at an ideal of 4/day.  This means that in FFT, each fight is ideally against an enemy that is near equal to you, whereas in D&D, as Elfboy pointed out, you're fighting an enemy inferior to you.  This is heightened further when you consider that in FFT you are expected to reload from a save if you lose, while "let's do that again" isn't considered a kosher reply to a TPK, so FFT can even present a battle that is arguably tougher than the party in good faith, while a DM who did that without heavy telegraphing (either here's how to get out of it, or here's why you should never have picked it) of some sort is a bit of a dick.

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Theorycrafting! (Because I like competitive metagames too much)
« Reply #676 on: June 13, 2016, 04:21:37 AM »
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There's also Thunder Wave as an option, which is the same damage as Shatter, but a 15 ft radius.  Requires you being at the center of the radius, though.

Nope, it's a cube with side length 15, which is considerably smaller than Shatter. (Area of 225 square feet instead of 314... though the way my group interprets this on a grid the gap is even bigger. Your table rules may vary.)

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Alternatively, using Crossbow Master but not Sharpshooter.  4+1+d6 = 8.5 damage.  Your hit is +10, so hit 80% of the time.  6.8 average damage.  20.5 damage across three attacks.

Also notably worse than the rapier or greatsword builds! 8.5 just too low compared to duelling/greatswords, plus the usual "haha no opportunity attacks".
« Last Edit: June 13, 2016, 04:23:42 AM by Dark Holy Elf »

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metroid composite

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Re: Theorycrafting! (Because I like competitive metagames too much)
« Reply #677 on: June 13, 2016, 04:39:36 AM »
Not super-impressed by bow fighter.

First of all, while I agree that it works by RAW, I think Trip Attack is begging for a DM to slap a "melee attacks only" flag on it for reasons which are obvious. Fortunately, Feinting Attack and Precision Attack also exist.

Yeah...I actually ended up not going with Trip Attack anyway; the 45% chance to trip was just shitty, and I didn't want to calculate what that would mean.  Also, it's literally only useful when you're ready to Action Surge.  When you're not...I mean...maybe you get one attack with advantage out of it?  Gross.

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Secondly, bows can't opportunity attack. You're a fighter. One of your big advantages is that you are more durable than the party average, can get in enemy faces and make them attack you, or risk your opportunity attack (which can potentially trip or push). If you can't opportunity attack... too bad, so sad, you don't get this advantage, and the enemies will probably work on hitting your more fragile allies. If you want credit for your durability, better have a melee weapon.

I...don't think fighters need to be the tank?  Like...they don't resist all damage the way Barbarians do.  They don't have the Druid's Wild Shape to get free 42 bonus HP (twice per short rest).

Like...they CAN play the role of the tank, and if your party doesn't have a tank and you want to play a fighter, sure, that's a good way to build them.  They're not inherently any more durable than, say, a Ranger, however.  (In fact, of the classes covered so far...Barbarian and Druid have clear tanking abilities, and Priest might be more durable too just because they can put everything into AC without losing much).

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Thirdly, ranged attacks have disadvantage at melee. You're not a rogue, you don't have free disengage. Nor do you have saving throw spells like a pinned mage. If enemy(s) close to melee with you, and you don't have Crossbow Expert... what are you gonna do, exactly? Use Evasive Footwork for +4.5 AC against the opportunity attacks, or accept disadvantage. Neither sounds great.

But I did end up getting Crossbow Expert after evaluating going without (Crossbow Expert + Sharpshooter had the most damage...).


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Duelling rapier fighter, 2x ASI:

Damage is 1d8 +2 (duelling) +1 (magic) +5 (stat) = 12.5, with 75% hit. If we use Precision Attack we... basically don't miss. 91-94% accuracy depending on if your DM lets you recover from rolling a 1. So... 23 damage with two attacks. 19-20 AC. So... less damaging than the crossbow build, but more reliable, more durable, and can actually tank/defend.

OK...the issue I have with this build is where do you go from here?  I guess you use your ASIs at this point on...better guarding (Sentinel) and then tankiness (CON, Heavy Armor Master or Medium Armor master depending on whether you're dex or str based?)  Yeah, that works.  I will note that if you're focused on damage that there's really no Feats left that both boost damage and let you use the duelling fighting style.  Wait...no, I'm wrong, you could get Polearm Master, and then wield a quarterstaff in one hand.  (You need to be strength based for this, of course).

In fact, pretty sure that will be better than just getting the stat to +5.

1d6 +2 (duelling) +1 magic +4 (Stat) = 10.5  (bonus attack from Polearm Master will be 9.5).  All of this with 70% accuracy (+8 to hit); with precision attack...84% chance to hit assuming you don't bother rerolling 2s or 1s (less than 50% chance to even save you--waste of a superiority dice IMO).  So...25.5 damage on average.  Compared to...I'm actually calculating precision attack only brings the 75% hit case up to 89%, which is 22 damage.

BUT, you also get extra attacks of opportunity (getting attacks when enemies enter your range).

EDIT: ah, you meant for this to be a dex build.  Well yes, no Polearm Master then.

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Greatsword fighter. Your armour is more expensive, and you have -2 accuracy, but you still have opportunity attacks and you do hit harder when you hit. Without GWM, first, that's... 20 Str. Greatsword with the damage boost is 8.33, so that +5 +1 = 14.33 per swing, 28.67 for two, 91-94% accuracy. So... 26-27 or so. Beats the crossbow build in practice. 17-18 AC depending on if we allow plate. Lower initiative than Dex builds, stealth disadvantage, Dex checks/saves are more common than Str ones for what it's worth.

Greatsword fighter with Great Weapon Master? Base hit drops to 70%, if you fish it's 45%. This is lower than I'd like, even with Precision Attack, which makes it like 60%. Still, 23.33 per swing = 46.67 * .6 = 28.3 or so... it's there if you want it.

Again, I'm calculating that with precision attacks it only brings it up to 89%, so 20 str GWM is looking at 25.5 average damage per turn.

18 STR Precision attack with GWM...ok so...4+1+3 = +8 to hit.  Down to +3 to hit.  Don't roll below 12.  On an 11-7 precision attack can help you.  Below that...I probably wouldn't waste a superiority dice because it has a more than 50% chance of still missing.  64% chance to hit.  So...30 damage on average.

That said, if you're looking for an opportunity attack machine with a two handed weapon, I think what you want is Polearm Master and smack people with a Hatbot...I mean Halberd.  Compared to the Quarterstaff calculations above...it's d10 instead of d6, so +4 damage (+3.4 after accuracy).  29 average damage.  Reach.  And Reach on opportunity attacks so you zone out more of the battlefield, and more stuff that triggers opportunity attacks.  You can also combine this with GWM if you feel like it (Hatbot...I mean Halberds are a two handed heavy weapon.  59% accuracy even after precision attack.  (3+1+10)x3 + 1d4+2d10 = 42+13.5 = 55.5.  32.5 average damage.  Eh nah, as tolerant as I am of a little extra variance, that's only a 10% damage increase, doesn't sound worth-it.

So...if you're looking for an opportunity attack zoning tank, I think you want Polearm Master and +2 STR.  (Unless you wanted to REALLY focus on opportunity attacks, and then you go Polearm Master and Sentinel).
« Last Edit: June 13, 2016, 04:46:09 AM by metroid composite »

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Theorycrafting! (Because I like competitive metagames too much)
« Reply #678 on: June 13, 2016, 05:19:56 AM »
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Like...they CAN play the role of the tank, and if your party doesn't have a tank and you want to play a fighter, sure, that's a good way to build them.  They're not inherently any more durable than, say, a Ranger, however.  (In fact, of the classes covered so far...Barbarian and Druid have clear tanking abilities, and Priest might be more durable too just because they can put everything into AC without losing much).

Well, a shield Fighter is pretty high up the tanking list? d10 HP, high AC, some defensive maneuver options or Protection/Defense, Second Wind. Sure, not Barbarian/Druid though, but in a random party of four classes, there's a non-negligible chance your fighter is the most durable, and they'll pretty much always be above average. "Being able to protect lower-durability units" is a thing Barbarian, Druid have too, mind (and will be a point in their favour when the casters are saying "check out my Fireball, you can't keep up with this") but it's also an advantage Fighter has. You're proposing erasing it and... not gaining all that much damage.

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But I did end up getting Crossbow Expert after evaluating going without (Crossbow Expert + Sharpshooter had the most damage...).

Oh, I didn't even notice that, I assume the "I like this plan" build was the one you settled on! Okay.

I'm pretty leery on using Precision to amp your bonus attacks too, you're gonna run out of maneuvers pretty fast that way as you note. Remember these will have to last multiple combats most likely. I propose that to keep the playing field level we try to make everyone burn through these dice at the same rate... so either 20% or 25% on the two attacks they all get (your call which, I don't really care).

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OK...the issue I have with this build is where do you go from here?  I guess you use your ASIs at this point on...better guarding (Sentinel) and then tankiness (CON, Heavy Armor Master or Medium Armor master depending on whether you're dex or str based?)  Yeah, that works.

You're never running out of good options for level up bonuses, even as a fighter. Tough is quietly really good, for instance. (Equal to +4 Con for HP purposes, though no boost to Con checks/saves... winning trade for someone who doesn't make concentration checks surely.)

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Compared to...I'm actually calculating precision attack only brings the 75% hit case up to 89%, which is 22 damage.

Not that it -really- matters but this isn't right. Let's say we make 20 attacks.

75% hit means we already land hits on 6 or higher. So... 15 hits.
5 means we use a superiority die and automatically hit. 16 hits.
4 -> superiority die makes you hit 7/8 of the time. 16.875
3 -> superiority die makes you hit 6/8 of the time. 17.625
2 -> superiority die makes you hit 5/8 of the time. 18.25

91% chance to hit, 20% we burn a die.

1 -> if your DM rules that a superiority die can save this AND you think it's worthwhile, 4/8 chance. 18.75. 94%, but 25% chance we burn a die.

You may want to recheck your other calculations I suppose.

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metroid composite

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Re: Theorycrafting! (Because I like competitive metagames too much)
« Reply #679 on: June 13, 2016, 05:36:42 AM »
What comes after fighter?  Oh it's Monk.

Welp, Monk doesn't have equipment choices.  Or build choices.  18 Dex, 16 Wis, 14 Con.

Oh yeah, another fun fact about monk?  All these shiny magic weapons?  Only help two of their four attacks.  RIP unarmed strikes

So...+1 quarterstaff I guess. 4+1+1d8 (9.5 damage) with +8 to hit...for two attacks.  (70% chance to hit).  4+1d6 (7.5 damage) with +7 to hit for the other two attacks.  (65% chance to hit).  23 average damage.

Well...that's not strictly accurate, actually.  When you hit with Flurry of Blows punches, you can knock enemies prone if you're open hand technique (dex save, 14 DC).  Every time you hit you can try to use Stunning Strike (con save 14 DC).  And landing any of these things gives you advantage.  (91% hit and 88% hit respectively after advantage).  If you are attacking with advantage, it's 30.5 average damage.

Of course, if you're out of Ki, or can't spare Ki for flurry of blows, which you might be after a couple turns, then it's 18 damage (24 damage with advantage)

Your AC is 17 (you get hit 55% of the time).  So...14 average damage.  Your HP is 45 (we've been here before).  You live about three turns.

That said, 1v1 potential is reasonably high, thanks to stunning strike chains.  Stun lasts until the end of your next turn, so you get the rest of the current turn, and next turn to unload.  Stun makes them automatically fail dex and str saves, so if you use a flurry of blows during the stun turns, you can guaranteed knock them prone, and/or knock them 15 feet away from you.  (Which if they're melee means they waste the stun turn, and waste the next turn after it standing up, and thus basically lose two turns from a single stun).

So mmm...I feel like Monk is generally going to take around 5-6 turns to kill, and dies in 3 turns.  Ideally the enemy would be melee, letting Monk knock out two turns with a single stun.  So...land two stuns, and monks can last for 7 turns.  Each stun is probably about 50% to work, so two stunning strikes on average (2 ki per stun, so 4 ki used so far).  Save the Flurry for when stun is about to end to knock enemy prone and away (up to 6 ki; Monks have 6 total ki at this level, so just barely enough).  Winnable, barely, assuming a melee opponent.

Of course, Monks have high dex and 45 move.  Against a strictly melee opponent in a 1v1 they could just pull out a shortbow and kite...maybe?  (Some of these monsters definitely fly too fast for that though!)

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Theorycrafting! (Because I like competitive metagames too much)
« Reply #680 on: June 13, 2016, 05:59:58 AM »
Stunning Strike! It isn't about advantage for Monk, though that's a nice perk. It's an enemy which can't do anything back. AND all your allies have advantage too! Even many mages, because their dex-based spells always hit! I think at some point this analysis has become kinda over-focused on 1v1s which hardly ever happen in D&D. Like... knocking an enemy prone hurts your ranged attackers. Stunning them helps everyone. This is much better and you don't acknowledge this because you seem to be only focusing on how the attacker's own moves are affected.

There is zero doubt in my mind that monk is better than barbarian at this level because holy shit stunning strike (multiple chances! Per turn!) can ruin elite monsters.

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Magetastica

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Re: Theorycrafting! (Because I like competitive metagames too much)
« Reply #681 on: June 13, 2016, 06:00:27 AM »
Just going to say, having played a Monk through that level range following the Open Hand technique... It's not worth it to use the Ki points on Flurry of Blows almost ever. You're definitely better off using it to only stun in a 1v1, then pull out a bow and kite. As a Monk, you're actually quite happy to engage in ranged combat because you can reduce 1 ranged missile attack by 1d10+4(mod)+6(lvl)=15.5 damage, and that's just as a reaction, so it can be done every turn, meaning that you're significantly tankier if you can turn it into a ranged combat, which you probably can.

Also, the math for the Ki usage you had in that chain is slightly off, as you would only need 1 Ki point to both knock the enemy prone and knock them away, as the Ki point is spent on activating FoB, not on activating the trip/push add-on.

Just thought I'd mention my experiences with the class, please continue, your discussions are fascinating.

metroid composite

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Re: Theorycrafting! (Because I like competitive metagames too much)
« Reply #682 on: June 13, 2016, 06:41:21 AM »
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Compared to...I'm actually calculating precision attack only brings the 75% hit case up to 89%, which is 22 damage.

Not that it -really- matters but this isn't right. Let's say we make 20 attacks.

75% hit means we already land hits on 6 or higher. So... 15 hits.
5 means we use a superiority die and automatically hit. 16 hits.
4 -> superiority die makes you hit 7/8 of the time. 16.875
3 -> superiority die makes you hit 6/8 of the time. 17.625
2 -> superiority die makes you hit 5/8 of the time. 18.25

91% chance to hit, 20% we burn a die.

1 -> if your DM rules that a superiority die can save this AND you think it's worthwhile, 4/8 chance. 18.75. 94%, but 25% chance we burn a die.

You may want to recheck your other calculations I suppose.

Ah, no you're right, I was looking at the 70% case -> 89% chance to hit.  75%->91% you're right.

Well, a shield Fighter is pretty high up the tanking list? d10 HP, high AC, some defensive maneuver options or Protection/Defense, Second Wind. Sure, not Barbarian/Druid though, but in a random party of four classes, there's a non-negligible chance your fighter is the most durable, and they'll pretty much always be above average. "Being able to protect lower-durability units" is a thing Barbarian, Druid have too, mind (and will be a point in their favour when the casters are saying "check out my Fireball, you can't keep up with this") but it's also an advantage Fighter has. You're proposing erasing it and... not gaining all that much damage.

I mean, erasing it, but gaining +2 to hit is the big attraction.  If you want consistency, +2 to hit is much better than +2 to damage.  If you want damage and are willing to take a little bit of uncertainty, -3 to hit for +10 to damage is good.  (And is better even in average damage comparisons and certainly in reliability compared to -5 to hit for +12 to damage).

Also, 600 range with no disadvantage is a thing that is pretty neat.

I mean, to be clear in a dex build you can and likely will switch back and forth.  Even if you go for dueling and wield a rapier, sometimes you're going to pull out a bow when getting in range is impractical (ex: a flying target).  Even if you go for archery fighting style, doesn't mean you can't grab a rapier and a shield and zone for your party.

You will deal less damage in the situation you're not built for, of course.  But if your party needs zoning more than it needs damage right now, you can cover that.  If what your party really needs you to do is use an opportunity attack to trip someone before they reach your squishies, you can still do that, you just won't get the +2 damage from dueling.

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I'm pretty leery on using Precision to amp your bonus attacks too, you're gonna run out of maneuvers pretty fast that way as you note. Remember these will have to last multiple combats most likely. I propose that to keep the playing field level we try to make everyone burn through these dice at the same rate... so either 20% or 25% on the two attacks they all get (your call which, I don't really care).

Mmm...ok, so it's 8 attacks vs 11 over the course of three turns.  So...maybe if you have a bonus attack, you only reroll 20% of your D20s, and if you don't have a bonus attack then you reroll 25% of your D20s?  This comes out to...similarish numbers of rerolls over the course of three turns with an action surge?

Alright, let's recalculate with that in mind.

3(Dex)+1(magic)+3(prof)+2(archery) = +9 accuracy.  Gets reduced to +4 accuracy.  11 or higher always hits.  Reroll on 7-10.  66% chance to hit.

Damage is...

3(dex)+1(magic)+d6+10 = 17.5

11.5 average damage per attack (down from 12).  34.5 average damage per turn.  58 average damage on an action surge.  127 for three turn average damage.

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You're never running out of good options for level up bonuses, even as a fighter. Tough is quietly really good, for instance. (Equal to +4 Con for HP purposes, though no boost to Con checks/saves... winning trade for someone who doesn't make concentration checks surely.)

There's no running out of defensive ASIs.  Like...a fighter might want to get Resilliant to get proficiency in several saving throws.

There IS a limit of offence oriented ASIs, at least for certain attack plans.  Bow users have a feat to increase damage, and a feat to get bonus action attacks -- (both with multiple extra benefits like attacking at close range without disadvantage).  Heavy weapon users have a feat to increase damage, and a feat to get a bonus action attack (Again, both of which have several other benefits).  There is actually a duelist feat, and it's a reasonable ability, but it's defensive (Defensive Duelist).  And sure, if you're building a defensive rapier fighter, and you're not a Eldritch Knight, take that, it's pretty close to the Shield Spell.

I guess what I'm thinking with fighter is that they are one of the most damage focused classes (second highest damage after Rogue?  Or are they the highest?  Probably higher at this level--3d6 sneak attack damage probably isn't gonna make the difference) as opposed to some of the more tanking focused classes.  So my first instinct was to build them for damage.  Certainly they're a pretty flexible class though.

SnowFire

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Re: Theorycrafting! (Because I like competitive metagames too much)
« Reply #683 on: June 13, 2016, 06:49:10 AM »
Just to briefly step in...  yeah, there's something to be said for assessing characters in the Gygaxian style of dungeon crawling D&D was originally intended as, where in room A there is an Orc guarding a pie, in room B a dire spider, in room C a baby green dragon, all just waiting for heroes to walk in so they can attack them.  I...  don't think that's a campaign I'd ever play in, and even very hacky campaigns like to have big show-up set piece boss battles often times.  This means that "burst" damage from unloading everything gets quite a bit more respect from me.  If Meteor Swarm is down, fine, whatever, go home and rest.  Unless there's a freaking war going on, it can wait.

I haven't looked closely enough at 5e to comment too much more, though!

metroid composite

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Re: Theorycrafting! (Because I like competitive metagames too much)
« Reply #684 on: June 13, 2016, 06:55:02 AM »
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Also, the math for the Ki usage you had in that chain is slightly off, as you would only need 1 Ki point to both knock the enemy prone and knock them away, as the Ki point is spent on activating FoB, not on activating the trip/push add-on.

Hm?  No, I accounted for this.

2 average ki to stun the enemy.  1 ki to use flurry of blows.  3 ki used per stun cycle under this plan.  6 ki total.

Stunning Strike! It isn't about advantage for Monk, though that's a nice perk. It's an enemy which can't do anything back. AND all your allies have advantage too! Even many mages, because their dex-based spells always hit! I think at some point this analysis has become kinda over-focused on 1v1s which hardly ever happen in D&D. Like... knocking an enemy prone hurts your ranged attackers. Stunning them helps everyone. This is much better and you don't acknowledge this because you seem to be only focusing on how the attacker's own moves are affected.

There is zero doubt in my mind that monk is better than barbarian at this level because holy shit stunning strike (multiple chances! Per turn!) can ruin elite monsters.

Oh for sure.  And several classes that don't have much to say for themselves in a 1v1 have spells like...Hypnotic Pattern, which can just win fights; I did a pass on spell lists before; this time I'm doing a pass on raw numbers (damage, durability, healing).

Like...generally roles in combat are some people disable or control the enemy, and some people mop up the enemy with damage.  I'm looking more at the murder side of the coin here.  Monk is a little more on the control side of the coin.

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Theorycrafting! (Because I like competitive metagames too much)
« Reply #685 on: June 13, 2016, 07:12:01 AM »
At this level I don't think any other class can compete with Warlock for damage output (unless your DM religiously keeps her monsters very, very far apart or uses very few at a time)! I mean... sure, Eldritch Blast only does 13.3, but Fireball at... say, 65% hit (+2 dex) hitting 3 targets does 69.3 and is hyper-reliable, and you get two of those per short rest, with a third once per day. That beats out fighter until... *Calcs* actually only the fifth action per short rest ignoring the Rod of the Pact Keeper recharge, so hey, more competitive than I was expecting. Of course if those Fireballs hit more than 3 enemies it gets much harder to keep up.

Fair enough about the feats meaning that 1H styles fall behind with time. Of course you can always switch to those as time goes on. And... yeah, it's totally a fair point that fighter can switch between roles. Precision does make them better at smash damage output than I was anticipating since "lol 45% accuracy" doesn't apply nearly as much when you can add a d8 to that 4 times per short rest.

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metroid composite

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Re: Theorycrafting! (Because I like competitive metagames too much)
« Reply #686 on: June 13, 2016, 07:29:00 AM »
Just to briefly step in...  yeah, there's something to be said for assessing characters in the Gygaxian style of dungeon crawling D&D was originally intended as, where in room A there is an Orc guarding a pie, in room B a dire spider, in room C a baby green dragon, all just waiting for heroes to walk in so they can attack them.  I...  don't think that's a campaign I'd ever play in, and even very hacky campaigns like to have big show-up set piece boss battles often times.  This means that "burst" damage from unloading everything gets quite a bit more respect from me.  If Meteor Swarm is down, fine, whatever, go home and rest.  Unless there's a freaking war going on, it can wait.

I haven't looked closely enough at 5e to comment too much more, though!

I mean, if this is the way the party always plays, with lots of preparation, getting in one fight, and then just GTFOing to a pocket dimension...then the DM scales up the fights accordingly, and gives you enemies too durable to die to a single Meteor Swarm.  So...you can open with Meteor Swarm, and it might still be a good idea given how much damage it does, but maybe it only takes off a fraction of the HP on the tanky enemies you're fighting.  So...basically your DM would respond to how your party was playing, and scale up fights accordingly.

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At this level I don't think any other class can compete with Warlock for damage output (unless your DM religiously keeps her monsters very, very far apart or uses very few at a time)! I mean... sure, Eldritch Blast only does 13.3, but Fireball at... say, 65% hit (+2 dex) hitting 3 targets does 69.3 and is hyper-reliable, and you get two of those per short rest, with a third once per day. That beats out fighter until... *Calcs* actually only the fifth action per short rest ignoring the Rod of the Pact Keeper recharge, so hey, more competitive than I was expecting. Of course if those Fireballs hit more than 3 enemies it gets much harder to keep up.

Well, there's another pretty easy way for the DM to play around this, which is to use enemies resistant or immune to fire, which a lot of the enemies in the monster manual are.  (Also, if you do the two encounters per short rest thing, then you don't want to drop both fireballs in the same fight).

But yeah, Fireball is very good AoE at this level.  I haven't really been analyzing AoE damage, since literally all the mages get fireball if they choose the appropriate path for it, and it deals the same damage for all of them, and they have the same number of level 3 spell slots (Warlock being the exception of course).  (Well Druid can't get Fireball--they only gets Lightning Bolt on one of the Land Druid paths, boo).  Mostly I've been using Fireball as a comparison point for similar AoE spells, like the maximize Tempest Cleric options.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2016, 07:32:58 AM by metroid composite »

SnowFire

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Re: Theorycrafting! (Because I like competitive metagames too much)
« Reply #687 on: June 13, 2016, 08:13:12 AM »
Just to briefly step in...  yeah, there's something to be said for assessing characters in the Gygaxian style of dungeon crawling D&D was originally intended as, where in room A there is an Orc guarding a pie, in room B a dire spider, in room C a baby green dragon, all just waiting for heroes to walk in so they can attack them.  I...  don't think that's a campaign I'd ever play in, and even very hacky campaigns like to have big show-up set piece boss battles often times.  This means that "burst" damage from unloading everything gets quite a bit more respect from me.  If Meteor Swarm is down, fine, whatever, go home and rest.  Unless there's a freaking war going on, it can wait.

I haven't looked closely enough at 5e to comment too much more, though!

I mean, if this is the way the party always plays, with lots of preparation, getting in one fight, and then just GTFOing to a pocket dimension...then the DM scales up the fights accordingly, and gives you enemies too durable to die to a single Meteor Swarm.  So...you can open with Meteor Swarm, and it might still be a good idea given how much damage it does, but maybe it only takes off a fraction of the HP on the tanky enemies you're fighting.  So...basically your DM would respond to how your party was playing, and scale up fights accordingly.

Sure, but the point is, having 10 charges of some ability to persist through a dungeon with aren't very relevant, but having 2 really awesome spells/abilities is, against such a scaled up fight.

To put things another way, if we have two Fire Emblem maps of equivalent difficulty, one with 30 mostly crappy enemies, and another with 6 badasses...   in the first map, there's an interesting balance between Iron Swords & legendary weapons.  In the second map, I'm just going to use Mani Katti from the start or whatever, and the fact I have a ton of charges on an Iron Sword isn't relevant.

Also, it's not "GTFO to a pocket dimension", it's "encounter over".  Like, for examples from a recent Pathfinder game...  I mean stuff like dramatic Phoenix Wright trial / inquisition conducted by the Church that ends in a throwdown complete with divine beings being summoned.  After it's over, well, we're not going to keep on going and attack the judge or something.  The fact this blew up was already a big deal and people will be cleaning up afterward, there isn't any more "dungeon" to fight.  Or for something *closer* to a dungeon, a city attacked by demons, where encounter 1 is sneaking / killing the guard demons, and encounter 2 is the big demon at the source of portal.  D&D fights - at least GOOD ones that aren't just "you win" - take long enough that it's hard to do tons of solid encounters in one session, anyway.

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Re: Theorycrafting! (Because I like competitive metagames too much)
« Reply #688 on: June 13, 2016, 09:36:12 AM »
Paladin

Well...ok, let me start out by saying this one is going to be a bit weird.

6th level paladins have 6 spell slots?  You could burn through an entire day's spell slots in two turns.

Another interesting question--do you increase Charisma or Strength?  Actually just for numbers sake I'll probably take GWF.  That said, Oath of Devotion using channel Divinity to add your cha modifier to your hit percentage makes the strength vs Charisma debate kinda interesting.

All three paths have ways to increase your accuracy, although Oath of the Ancients is not guaranteed to restrain the target.

Obviously, half the class abilities only work on melee, we will be hitting people with swords.  Another thing to note--when you do use Divine Smite, you only use it after connecting with your attack (so it's not like using Great Weapon Master for the +10 will waste our smites).  One final thing to note...I think maybe the best way to use smites is to go crit fishing with them?  You choose to smite after you hit, so...wait for a crit, then use your smite for doubled up smites.

I'll go with Oath of Vengeance for this.  Oath of Devotion takes an action to set up Sacred Weapon.  Oath of the Ancients has saving throws.  Oath of Vengeance has easy math.

Soo...GWM

3(str)+1(magic)+3(prof) = 7 to hit

65% chance to hit.  GWM drops us to 40% chance to hit.  Advantage brings us up to 64% chance to hit.  We've seen this with Barb.  Same thing here.

damage

3(str)+1(magic)+8.33(Greatsword with GWF)+10 = 22.33

28.5 average damage for two attacks.

The alternative (with an ASI for +2 STR) would be 13.33 damage with a 91% chance to hit, for 24 across two attacks.

Another alternative is smacking people with hatbots (halberds) at 88% chance to hit, which deals...umm, ok you probably still use the great weapon fighting style for this, which means on a d10, you reroll 20% of the time and get +4 on average (+0.8).  And on a D4 you reroll 50% of the time and get +1 on average (+0.5).  Across three hits this is +2.1 (less benefit than a greatsword obviously, which is +1.33 per attack).

So...

3+1+d10 = 9.5.

9.5+9.5+7.5+2.1 = 29.6.  Averages to 26 damage with the 88% chance to hit.  If you don't want to take the +10, this might be the better option.  (Although...that being said, Paladins have use for their bonus action...like the oath of vengeance disadvantage effect).

So ehh...lets stick with greatswords.  (Although technically I think the best for 1v1 at this level would be to take dueling, with Polearm Master and a Quarterstaff).



As for divine smites...well wait for a crit if you can.  Looks like this combat will usually last 4 rounds.  You'll get a little less than one crit in that time on average.  18 bonus damage from a level 1 spell slot!

Actually, TBH, I wonder if it's better to use that spell slot on Bless.  Mmm...well it's a full action to cast Bless, so...probably not worth missing a round of damage.



Alright, so what's the durability?  Full plate, but you probably only have 14 Con if you're prioritizing Cha and Str.  18 AC.  52 HP.  You get hit roughly half the time (average damage taken 12.5).  So...you kill the enemy about as fast as the enemy kills you.

Of course, Paladins have a few "oh shit buttons" if they're losing.  Unload all your spell slots into damage (you can unload two on your attacks, and a third through your bonus action)--that opens up 6d8 from the level 2 slots, and 8d8 from the level 1 slots; something like 77 extra damage in two turns, not counting your actual weapon damage (assuming you hit, of course; don't take the -10 if you need this, obviously).  The other oh shit button is lay on hands.  You spend an action to heal 30, so that buys you...two extra turns, one of which you spent on Lay on Hands.

So mmm...options.  You can kill pretty reliably in 2 (!!!!) turns if you dump literally all your spell slots.  You can kill semi-reliably in 3 turns dumping about half your spell slots and using GWM.  You can kill in four turns on average with GWM but there's unreliablility to worry about.  (you kill in 5 turns on average if you go for the accuracy build, but that's actually too slow).

Of course, if it's just a 1v1 you want to win, there's ways to build accordingly (like...Cha doesn't do that much for this particular duel and doesn't need to be 16--but realistically Cha does a ton for you and your party, so...nah).  Tankier builds with shields and maybe Heavy Armor Master are worth considering--your big role as Paladin is to be a walking Aura for your pary, and being tankier helps with that.  Being a damage bot that charges in and hits things does not.  You can always turn on the damage as needed with smites, even if you're built for tanking.  So...fighting style...there's a solid argument for going shield based and taking something like Protection as your fighting style, as you want your party members to be hugging you for the aura, and if they're hugging you, you're not zoning in front of them the way a traditional tank would be (which is where Protection comes in handy).

Though...for calculation purposes I'll just take Defence (+1 AC) fighting style.

22 AC with a Shield and heavy armor.  ASI spent on...Resilient (CON) bringing it to 16?  (Gotta keep those buff spells up!)  Actually...eh, +2 Cha is almost certainly better than that (+1 to all your saves...and all your allies saves).  Ok, well let's do that I guess.  I guess stick with 16 str and 14 Con for the remaining two stats.

Damage is 3(str)+1+1d8 = 8.5.  Accuracy is 88%.  7.5 damage per hit.  15 damage per turn.

The enemy hits 30% of the time, which means we take an average of 7.5 damage per turn.

Actually, honestly, the 1v1ing power here is pretty similar (without using smites).  Instead of being 4 turns to kill each other, each side takes about 7 turns to kill.  Just...Paladin can break the mirror matchup much better by pulling out smites (now every smite gains you a turn instead of half a turn).  30 healing buys you like...4 turns in this matchup (3 once you remove the healing turn).  You have more turns for crit fishing, so your smites get more value.  (And all this is ignoring the fact that I used the ASI on Charisma and then...didn't really use Charisma it in my calculation. oops).

So mmm...definitely feel like tanky is the right way to build Paladin.  Not sure if I have the ideal build, but whatever.

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Re: Theorycrafting! (Because I like competitive metagames too much)
« Reply #689 on: June 14, 2016, 06:59:22 AM »
Hmm...ok, worth noting that most Paladin guides seem to encourage boosting strength before cha.  This would change things for the defensive build as follows:

Damage is 4(str)+1+1d8 = 9.5.  Accuracy is 91%.  8.5 damage per hit.  17 damage per turn.

(Doesn't change things too dramatically)



Anyway...Ranger

Ranger is kind-of like Fighter.  d10 hit dice.  Shields, armour.  That said, the entire class seems built to encourage you to build Dex and not Str.  Medium Armour only.  A number of spells and class features that assume some kind of bow.

Is it worth taking Sharpshooter for the +10?  Well...Ranger doesn't have any way of increasing accuracy or gaining advantage that I can immediately think of.  That said...

3(dex)+1(magic)+3(prof)+2(archery style) - 5(Sharpshooter) = +4

Hit on an 11 or higher, 50% chance to hit.

Damage is something like...

3(dex)+1(magic)+1d8(weapon)+1d6(Hunter's Mark)+10 = 22  (average damage of 11 after accuracy)


Accuracy with +2 ASI is +10 (hit on a 5 or higher, 80% chance to hit).
Damage with +2 Dex ASI is...

4(dex)+1(magic)+1d8(weapon)+1d6(Hunter's Mark) = 13 (average damage of 10.4 after accuracy)

Mmm...it's 5% less damage, but I think the +DEX ASI is better here.  More consistent.  Completely flexible to switch to a Rapier (still using the Archery fighting style, so nothing special with a Rapier).

I guess I should also look at Crossbow Master....

3(dex)+1(magic)+1d6(weapon)+1d6(Hunter's Mark) = 11 (average damage after accuracy: 8.2)

OK, so.....normal hunter with just more dex deals 21 every turn.  Crossbow Master can deal like 24.5.  But the first turn they need to Hunter's Mark so they deal 16.5.  So...they do catch up by the third turn.  Although if you lose your concentration then they go back to not having an edge so....



I'll be using Hunter for this, cause Beast Master is weird and complicated.  The choice for Hunter's Prey is interesting.  Horde Breaker is literally an extra attack.  Not a bonus action attack, literally an extra attack.  Extra attacks are amazing--so good that builds will dip 11 levels in fighter to get them.  But Horde Breaker is narrow in application, requires certain positioning by enemies, and if the enemies are standing next to each other chances are one of them will be in partial cover which you won't ignore without taking sharpshooter, and there will be fights with a single enemy where Horde Breaker just doesn't matter.

So...I'll be picking Colossus Slayer here instead.  It's relevant in every fight.  (Relevant in the 1v1, for that matter).  It functions like sneak attack, in that it's once per turn instead of once per round, so potentially you can get it twice in a turn (once on your turn, and once during an opportunity attack).

Incidentally, for Colossus Slayer damage...on the first turn you need to hit both attacks for it to trigger.  (64% chance).  So like...2.9 average damage on the first turn, and 4.3 average damage on subsequent turns (96% chance of activating on subsequent turns).

Brings the average damage per turn from like...about 21 to about 25.

So...kills in 4-5 rounds, probably 5.


Stat distribution.  Well this is awkward.  The player's handbook is telling me to take Wis as the second highest stat, and Wis just doesn't seem that great.  Like...useful for Ensnaring Strike I guess, but not a spell you can use if you have Hunter's Mark up.  Wis matters as your spellcasting mod on cure wounds, so that matters I guess.  And level 3 spells (which you don't have yet) bring AoE damage with saves.  So there's that.  Ok fine, 18 Dex, 16 Wis, 14 Con.

52 HP.  17 AC (gets hit 55% of the time).  Dies in about 3.8 turns on average.  So...falls short of winning.

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Re: Theorycrafting! (Because I like competitive metagames too much)
« Reply #690 on: June 14, 2016, 08:33:00 AM »
Rogue.

Well, there's a few different builds here.  One is to take the Healer feat, go Thief archetype, and then get bonus action healing (reviving).  Pretty ok healing numbers too (12.5 HP on average at this level).  For a bonus action res, this is actually probably the biggest?  (OK fine, Life Cleric can beat it by casting Healing Word out of a level 3 slot...or just using their channel divinity).  It's also a fine out of combat heal if you don't mind burning a small amount of gold (one heal per character per short rest; much better than the Bard's Song of Rest).  It's about 0.5 gold per heal, which...give that we've got characters using plate mail (1500 gold) yeah, whatever this is affordable.

We're also giving out magic weapons from table F, right?  So...Wand of Magic Missiles?  Cast Magic Missile as a bonus action 6x per day?  10.5 guaranteed damage from a bonus action.  Circlet of Blasting is Scorching ray 1x per day, which is...6d6, the attack bonus of the circlet is +5 (which...is pretty bad; 55% hit rate).  So...average damage from the Circlet is 11.55 (uh, yeah, I'd rather have the multiple use wand).

As for how to build Rogues...obviously DEX.  On the one hand, Rogues can only sneak attack with finesse weapons and ranged weapons, and they're squishy, which makes staying at safe range tempting.  On the other hand, a lot of their damage comes from sneak attack, and you can get sneak attack twice per round if you get an attack of opportunity; this means melee.  You also want to take advantage of prone enemies for guaranteed sneak attack, which ranged attackers can't do without Crossbow Master.  Crossbow Master is unattractive for other reasons (your bonus actions are amazeballs).

Alright, so looking at the basic Dex build.  +2 Dex ASI.  You have proficiency with Rapiers (nice).  4(dex)+1(magic)+3(prof) = +8 to hit.  (70% chance to hit).  No, actually, that's a lie, since you can nearly always attack from advantage by using bonus action hide.  91% chance to hit.

4(dex)+1(magic)+1d8 = 9.5 damage.  (17 per two attacks on average).  Almost guaranteed Sneak Attack in there for 28.5.

Hmm...is there an alternative?  Sharpshooter, that takes advantage of advantage to hit after a bonus action hide?  Sure, let's calculate it.  40% chance to hit; 64% by using advantage.  17.5 damage (-1 for one less dex, -1 for shortbow + 10 for Sharpshooter).  Across two attacks that averages to 22.5.  BUT there's a real chance of sneak attack not even happening now (13%).  Average damage from sneak attack down to 9.  Total damage of 31.5.  10% damage bonus for a lot of increased risk.  Ehh...I'm skeptical here: the risk-reward here is pretty sketchy, and it doesn't do anything to help you set up opportunity attacks, which with sneak attack are actually a substantial source of damage (like...+20 damage any round you actually land an opportunity attack).

On any turn where you use the Rogue's bonus action for something else (healing, magic missile) your damage from attacks drops because you aren't doing bonus action hide for advantage.  Average damage about 23 (instead of 28.5).  Still a net increase in average damage for Magic Missile (33.5), and lots of value for the healing.

Your durability is mediocre.  Although...not like you really need stats that aren't DEX and CON, so 16 CON is pretty reasonable.  Puts you at 51 HP.  16 AC gets hit 60% of the time.  Uncanny Dodge is a thing, but most of the CR6 monsters had 2-3 attacks.  Hmm...first monster I looked up had 3 attacks.  6% of the time you dodge all 3 (0% damage).  29% of the time you dodge two, get hit by one, which you halve (1/6 of the full damage).  43% of the time you get hit by two of the three attacks (3/6 of the full damage).  22% of the time you get hit by all three (5/6 of the full damage).  Overall, Uncanny dodge reduces the damage taken from 60% (thanks to AC alone) to 44%.  This means average damage taken is about 11 per round.  Get killed in 4-5 rounds (closer to 5).

So mmm...looks like Rogue has the slight edge with a +2 DEX ASI.  The Healer feat ASI would let Rogue bonus action heal themselves once, but would also lower the average damage.  (Obviously this feat is more about combat revival, and less about being a bad imitation of Fighter's Second Wind).


Assassin exists of course.  If you have a surprise round, you get to deal double damage.  (But any Rogue should win this matchup with a surprise round; Assassin just does it more comfortably).

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Re: Theorycrafting! (Because I like competitive metagames too much)
« Reply #691 on: June 14, 2016, 08:53:31 AM »
We're also giving out magic weapons from table F, right?  So...Wand of Magic Missiles?  Cast Magic Missile as a bonus action 6x per day?  10.5 guaranteed damage from a bonus action.  Circlet of Blasting is Scorching ray 1x per day, which is...6d6, the attack bonus of the circlet is +5 (which...is pretty bad; 55% hit rate).  So...average damage from the Circlet is 11.55 (uh, yeah, I'd rather have the multiple use wand).

I like want this to just be a whole class.  Trying to pick where you should place it.  Like I knee jerked to it could be a variation on Bard (some kind of implement focused caster).  But man who likes bards?  Tallychu , thats who.  Who wants to be like Tallychu?  Well other than healthy well balanced people but fuck that noise.

Maybe just some kind of ritual based caster (YESSSSS EXCUSES TO USE D&D RITUALS) who has no power for themselves.  They aren't a vessel for a greater power like a Warlock is, but maybe an actor or agent for something?  Or just something akin to the flavour for Arcane Tricksters but far more mundane.

By tying their combat strength completely to items you can have a pretty fun place where you have people that wield power but are not themselves inherently powerful.



I suppose thats just wizards without the Vancian magic fluff, but it is still a thing I kinda want.  I am envisioning something like restrictions on stats so you are just like a shitty fighter that can do some stuff.
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Re: Theorycrafting! (Because I like competitive metagames too much)
« Reply #692 on: June 14, 2016, 09:14:30 AM »
Sorcerer.

up until this point, I've largely been passing over mage damage options because they're all pretty similar.  They can get Fireball.  It deals 28 AoE damage (Save for half).

Sorcerer is an exception.  I'll be using dragon sorcerer because hey, it is the "I have damage numbers" choice.  Obviously pick a bloodline that gives you fire.

First off, you get to add your charisma to your fireball damage.  +4 brings us to 32.  Next, we can spend a Sorcery point to empower the fireball, and reroll 4 dice.  Assuming these dice were about 2 each on average, this is worth about +1.5 per dice, which is +6.  38 damage fireball.  Then, if we really want one target dead, we can quicken the fireball, and then use Fire Bolt afterwards (which also gets the +4 to Cha bonus, so it does 14.5 damage).

For Fire Bolt, it's going to be the standard +8 to hit (thanks to the +1 wand and 18 Cha).  70% chance to hit.  For Fireball's dex save...mmm...ok, opening the monster manual here...actually some of these are quite low; seems there's a lot of giant monsters with bad dex saves.  Like...+2 or +1 is probably middle of the road (with a few outliers at like +7).  I'll go with +2 for dex save on monsters.  Spell save DC is 15.  They need to roll 13 or better.  (happens 40% of the time).

Average damage from the empowered fireball: 30.4.  Average damage from the Fire Bolt: 10.  So...for the low low cost of a level 3 slot and 3 sorcery points, yoou can deal about 40.5 damage per turn.

I guess 16 DEX, 14 Con?  AC will be 16.  HP will be 44.  16 AC gets hit 60% of the time.  So...dies in about 3 rounds.  BUT you're a motherfucking sorcerer and can cast Shield, and then you only get hit 35% of the time.  Also Mirror Image maybe?  Anyway, point is, while Sorcerer really isn't designed to fight solo, they could pull a Paladin and just burn all/most of their spell slots, and win anyway.

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Re: Theorycrafting! (Because I like competitive metagames too much)
« Reply #693 on: June 14, 2016, 09:46:24 AM »
We're also giving out magic weapons from table F, right?  So...Wand of Magic Missiles?  Cast Magic Missile as a bonus action 6x per day?  10.5 guaranteed damage from a bonus action.  Circlet of Blasting is Scorching ray 1x per day, which is...6d6, the attack bonus of the circlet is +5 (which...is pretty bad; 55% hit rate).  So...average damage from the Circlet is 11.55 (uh, yeah, I'd rather have the multiple use wand).

I like want this to just be a whole class.  Trying to pick where you should place it.  Like I knee jerked to it could be a variation on Bard (some kind of implement focused caster).  But man who likes bards?  Tallychu , thats who.  Who wants to be like Tallychu?  Well other than healthy well balanced people but fuck that noise.

Maybe just some kind of ritual based caster (YESSSSS EXCUSES TO USE D&D RITUALS) who has no power for themselves.  They aren't a vessel for a greater power like a Warlock is, but maybe an actor or agent for something?  Or just something akin to the flavour for Arcane Tricksters but far more mundane.

By tying their combat strength completely to items you can have a pretty fun place where you have people that wield power but are not themselves inherently powerful.



I suppose thats just wizards without the Vancian magic fluff, but it is still a thing I kinda want.  I am envisioning something like restrictions on stats so you are just like a shitty fighter that can do some stuff.

I mean, Thief Rogue does get there eventually when they get Use Magic Device at level 13, and then can use all of those items as bonus actions.  (Wand of Fireballs...6 Fireballs a day from bonus actions.  Wand of Polymorph...6 polymorphs a day from bonus actions).

If you want ritual casting as well you can grab the ritual caster feat, and then pick up all the rituals for whichever class you chose.  (Or just dip 3 levels of Warlock, pick Pact of the Tome, choose the Ritual Casting invocation, and then you get all rituals from every class).

But yeah, it's a little bit awkward to build with existing classes.  I think probably your best bet is to homebrew something.  Take away some Rogue features (Sneak Attack probably), and then move Use Magic Device much earlier in the level progression...like level 5 or something.  Give the equivalent of Warlock Book of Ancient Secrets at some point (Maybe level 3?  That's the earliest you can get it from Warlock, and it's tempting to dip for that).  Obviously you need some version of Cunning Action--maybe swap around the order that the extra actions show up, so at level 2 you lose the bonus action Hide in exchange for a bonus action Use Item.

Mmm...probably still needs something.  Like...it can keep the Rogue skillmonkey stuff, that's cool.  But level 1 in this class is still giving less than level 1 in Rogue.  Maybe stealing cantrips from other classes, but you need to have a book on hand to use them?

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Re: Theorycrafting! (Because I like competitive metagames too much)
« Reply #694 on: June 14, 2016, 10:30:18 AM »
I think you just flat out need to make magic items more effective for them (or some way to make them cheap/disposables?).

I would be okay with them not being much at low level.  The archetype is the kind of thing you want to fudge at low level.  What's the equivalent of a super powerful magic item that the evil Vizier uses to force the issue?  Like Hirelings or something?  Political power?  Just straight up starting with a +1 short sword or something to get their To Hit and Damage slightly ahead of the curve?

I am sure you could bake in some plot power with Ritual castings being your fudge material.
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Re: Theorycrafting! (Because I like competitive metagames too much)
« Reply #695 on: June 14, 2016, 04:19:33 PM »
Well, they are fundamentally fairly mundane, so they can get the kind of stuff other mundane characters get.

Proficiency with three tools of their choice.

Proficiency with martial weapons and shields.  (They are good with their hands, and figuring out other people's stuff)

d10 hit dice

(thematically, I think only light armour.  This is someone who pulls out a dozen wands from their pockets....having trouble imagining them in full plate).

Extra ASIs (Fighter gets these obviously, but Rogue also has one extra one at level 10.  They're a good way to incentivize people to stick with the class after we already made them able to use every item during a bonus action)

Extra attacks (Obviously one extra attack at 5; maybe more...although need to be careful not to step on fighters)

Extra item use (Letting you replace one of your weapon attacks from an attack action with an item use)

Extra actions (Well...Fighters get action surge, Thief Rogues get two turns, how about letting this class replace both attacks with use device?  This gives potentially three use devices in one turn with the bonus action, although the third one can't be a spell due to bonus action spell rules; obviously a high level ability, of course--maybe level 17, maybe this is the level 11 power spike)

They use items better (most items are +5 to hit, or DC 15 for their save.  This doesn't scale well; how about letting this class add their Int and their proficiency bonus?)

They blast better (Taking a page out of sorcerer, and evoker wizard books...could let them add their int mod to one damage roll per spell cast.  This is a level 6 ability on sorc--one element only, and level 10 on wizard--all elements)

Maximize (Well...if we're going to let them take a double item use action, we can let them take a maximize action, where they only use one device in their action, but max the damage roll, or for stuff that doesn't have a damage roll but does have a saving throw, make the save have disadvantage.  Should be noted that most Maximize class features are limited use; maybe int times per day?)

Just...metamagic in general (Look at the sorcerer metamagic stuff--silent spell, extend spell; yeah, allow these at various levels, but only with use item).

Mmm...maybe not all of these abilities, but some combination of them, and space them out by levels, obviously.  Don't be afraid to look at rogue, bard (and knowledge cleric) too for ideas on skillmonkey stuff.

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Re: Theorycrafting! (Because I like competitive metagames too much)
« Reply #696 on: June 17, 2016, 07:24:34 AM »
Warlock

Is it worthwhile for a Warlock to Fireball in a 1v1?  Unclear.  28 damage is a thing, sure (save for half), but Hex into Eldritch Blast deals...26 (has to get through AC).  There's also this mild inconvenience that if you start next to a monster, you Eldritch Blast with disadvantage (unless you take Crossbow Master!)

Eldritch Blast to hit 4(cha)+1(magic)+3(prof) = +8.  Hit on a 7 or better, 70% chance to hit.

Average Eldritch Blast Damage: 13.3
Average Eldritch Blast Damage with hex: 18.2

Average Fireball damage (assuming 2 dex save, vs DC15, full damage 60% of the time): 22.4

That said, there's adaptations the Warlock can make to the 1v1.  Darkness/Devil's Sight might be dubious when you are a full party and mess up your party members, but it's a solid plan in a 1v1.  If the enemy monster is melee, Armor of Agathys is pretty solid--given that I've been assuming the monster multiattacks, one casting of AoA gives you 15 temp HP and deals about 30 damage to the monster (but only if the monster hits you with melee).

That said...is that enough?  Let's say the temp HP absorbs basically everything for two turns, is that enough?  If you're attacking with disadvantage due to melee, and no hex due to spending both spell slots...potentially not, actually.

Though, regardless, Warlock is pretty cool, but 2 spell slots is rough for a 1v1.

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Theorycrafting! (Because I like competitive metagames too much)
« Reply #697 on: June 17, 2016, 08:00:00 AM »
Warlock stuff: Warlock's DC is 16, because Rod of the Pact Keeper is great.

One-on-one Warlock might want to consider Hellish Rebuke (reaction 22, dex save half, so 79% of a Fireball but you don't lose your action so you still get to Eldritch Blast that turn). Also remember that Eldritch Blast is two beams and that if the first one pushes away, the second won't have disadvantage any more (at least... probably? I could see a DM ruling that one differently). There are probably some kiting arguments with pushing and running, too (which given that we're making the ridiculously unfair assumption of warlock vs. solo enemies I'm inclined to give credit to).


Rogue stuff: If we're invoking 1v1, I'm not sure how on earth rogue is successfully hiding then hitting something with a melee weapon, since you can't hide from something which can see you (even if you have cover) and moving breaks your hide check. Even a ranged weapon would require some convenient hiding spots which you couldn't just be flushed out of, and of course will randomly fail if the monster's perception check beats your stealth check. I mean "Rogue usually can get sneak attack" is true in-game but... not so much 1v1! I actually threw a bunch of 1v1's at my party and certainly the rogue had more trouble than most of the rest (barbarian, bard, monk, warlock).

Also where are you getting bonus action magic missiles from? Fast Hands explicitly doesn't work with magic items. Am I missing something?
« Last Edit: June 17, 2016, 08:01:49 AM by Dark Holy Elf »

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metroid composite

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Re: Theorycrafting! (Because I like competitive metagames too much)
« Reply #698 on: June 17, 2016, 09:41:30 AM »
Wizard.

So yeah, Warlocks' cantrip numbers?  Wizard will be about half of that.

Listing out Wizard numbers isn't going to mean a whole lot--basic 28 damage fireball, nothing special about it.  It's more about having the greater toolbox.

Like...I've been assuming an enemy with a multiattack that deals 25 damage (so like...7,7,8 for attacks).  A Divination Wizard can use the Slow spell, and then use Divination Portent to make sure it actually hits; that lowers the enemy damage down to one attack for 8.  Now mix in Mirror Image--the enemy can now only pop one Mirror Image per turn.  Slow prevents opportunity attacks, so no concern about using ranged attacks.  Although...damn, Slow has another saving throw at the end of the enemy's turn; that's not going to be reliable, then.

So like...even if Wizard lands a nasty status like Slow, can they kill before it wears off?  Fireball's average is 22.4.  On spells with attack rolls, your familiar can use the help action to give you advantage on one roll.  Scorching Ray's damage with this is 16.2.  Chromatic Orb with this narrowly outdamages Magic Missile for 11.8.  The cantrip deals 10.

These numbers are pretty low, though.  Like...Two Fireballs and two scorching rays gets you to 77.  You probably want to reserve level 1 spell slots for shield and mage armour, which means four cantrips to get you the rest of the way to 107.  Need to spend 8 turns dealing damage to actually bring this thing down.

Durability in a vaccum: 38 HP.  16 AC assuming mage armour (gets hit on a roll of 9 or better, 60% chance to get hit).  Shield is available (drops hit chance to 35%).  Mirror Images have 13 AC, get hit 75% of the time.  The Mirror image spell stops four attacks on average (but since we've been assuming that enemies have three multiattacks, that's not too great here).  So...without Mirror Image, and just leaning on Shield, we're looking at 8.75 average damage from the enemy (die in 4-5 turns).

Alright, so different plan...Blur?  Enemies have disadvantage attacking you.  This drops it to a 36% chance you get hit without shield, and a 12% chance you get hit with shield (and a 24% chance that you need to cast shield at all).  But the enemy is still multiattack--it actually has a 33% chance to hit even through shield (and on a hit, decent chance to break your concentration on Blur).  Also 57% chance you need to pop Shield every round isn't great.

Blink is...not bad; non-concentration, basically doubles your durability in a 1v1.  Gets you out of melee range so that you can make your range attacks.  That ups the initially reported durability to about 9 turns.  9 turns is almost enough on its own, although I worry that we will run out of shield spells.

So...Blink into Blur?  Now we need to use Shield only about once every 4 turns on average.  8 turns till we run out of Shield.  This is enough time to get our damage done.

(Of course some of the schools can help with this.  Abjuration wizard adds a 16 HP extra, more like 22 HP extra, and when the ward takes damage it doesn't break concentration.  Transmutation can give you proficiency in con saving throws.  The other PHB schools don't help much, not really built for duelling...although apparently one of the newer books has bladesinger who can add int to AC and concentration checks, so lolol that sounds silly and obviously makes this fairly trivial).

But mmm...yeah, Wizards.  They're supposed to use good status effects, and tilt the fight into the party's favour.  They're not really built for actually dealing single-target damage that reduces an enemy to 0 HP.

metroid composite

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Re: Theorycrafting! (Because I like competitive metagames too much)
« Reply #699 on: June 17, 2016, 10:12:57 AM »
Rogue stuff: If we're invoking 1v1, I'm not sure how on earth rogue is successfully hiding then hitting something with a melee weapon, since you can't hide from something which can see you (even if you have cover) and moving breaks your hide check. Even a ranged weapon would require some convenient hiding spots which you couldn't just be flushed out of, and of course will randomly fail if the monster's perception check beats your stealth check. I mean "Rogue usually can get sneak attack" is true in-game but... not so much 1v1! I actually threw a bunch of 1v1's at my party and certainly the rogue had more trouble than most of the rest (barbarian, bard, monk, warlock).

Oh, that's true.  I mean, run away and hide and use a ranged attack is still an option, but you eat an opportunity attack to pull that off.

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Also where are you getting bonus action magic missiles from? Fast Hands explicitly doesn't work with magic items. Am I missing something?

It...doesn't?  The Player's Handbook doesn't say anything about this...?

Oh, apparently the DMG specifies that Fast Hands doesn't work, because it's "Activating an Item" not "Using an Item".  OK.

I guess this is part of the whole "player's handbook pretends magic items don't exist."  (I mean, except for the part where later on the same page they describe "Use Magic Device" and mention using magic items, without mentioning that they don't work with Fast Hands).

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Warlock stuff: Warlock's DC is 16, because Rod of the Pact Keeper is great.

Ah, right, Fireball deals 23.1 instead of 22.4.

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One-on-one Warlock might want to consider Hellish Rebuke (reaction 22, dex save half, so 79% of a Fireball but you don't lose your action so you still get to Eldritch Blast that turn). Also remember that Eldritch Blast is two beams and that if the first one pushes away, the second won't have disadvantage any more (at least... probably? I could see a DM ruling that one differently). There are probably some kiting arguments with pushing and running, too (which given that we're making the ridiculously unfair assumption of warlock vs. solo enemies I'm inclined to give credit to).

I definitely agree with the shove working.  But...depends what combination of invocations you take.  Armor of Shadows for 16 AC is a thought.  Devil's Sight is required if you plan on using Darkness.  A lot of Warlocks would have Book of Ancient Secrets for out of combat utility at this point.  More to the point, though, even with the shove working...it's just not a good situation.  51% of the time the first hit will miss, and you won't shove.  It increases your damage a little (average damage across both beams is 9.3 without the shove, 10.3  with the shove).  But you still would really rather not be stuck attacking from disadvantage.

As far as kiting goes...mmm...really monster dependent there; a lot of these CR6 monsters have really good mobility (like...80 flyspeed).  Some don't though, fair.

Hellish Rebuke...yeah, fair.  Average damage 18.  Average damage for the round is that plus EB (so like...31).  Certainly a good option if you're not facing the kind of enemy that would trigger Armor of Agathys multiple times.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2016, 10:15:43 AM by metroid composite »