Author Topic: Theorycrafting! (Because I like competitive metagames too much)  (Read 134064 times)

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Theorycrafting! (Because I like competitive metagames too much)
« Reply #700 on: June 17, 2016, 03:40:58 PM »
For what it's worth I didn't assume "Use an object" would include activating a magic item because of the way those are described in the DMG but I agree that the PHB itself leaves it ambiguous as hell.

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(But 5e PHB isn't always that well-written...)

I admittedly had to go fishing to prove my kneejerk.


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More to the point, though, even with the shove working...it's just not a good situation.  51% of the time the first hit will miss, and you won't shove.  It increases your damage a little (average damage across both beams is 9.3 without the shove, 10.3  with the shove).  But you still would really rather not be stuck attacking from disadvantage.

Yeah this is certainly true. (Also, to tie into my previous argument, it's unreliable and unreliable is bad.) Could even be worth taking an attack of opportunity? Some monsters have pretty weak ones. But as you say, will be a bad situation regardless.

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Magetastica

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Re: Theorycrafting! (Because I like competitive metagames too much)
« Reply #701 on: June 17, 2016, 05:01:55 PM »
For the Warlock situation, if they use the Darkness/Devil's Sight combo, they no longer have to worry about disadvantage on their Eldritch Blasts, as they can take a 5-foot step away from the enemy monster and then have advantage against them, can't they? So while it would cost an action to activate, it would significantly increase their durability and flip their disadvantage to advantage on EB.

metroid composite

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Re: Theorycrafting! (Because I like competitive metagames too much)
« Reply #702 on: June 18, 2016, 01:59:17 PM »
For the Warlock situation, if they use the Darkness/Devil's Sight combo, they no longer have to worry about disadvantage on their Eldritch Blasts, as they can take a 5-foot step away from the enemy monster and then have advantage against them, can't they? So while it would cost an action to activate, it would significantly increase their durability and flip their disadvantage to advantage on EB.

Definitely, yeah, all of those things are true.  And taking an action to activate Darkness isn't the worst (since the turn you activate Darkness it's going to be hard to figure out where you are--it's the later turns when you can use the direction the Eldritch Blasts come from to largely figure out the warlock's location and attempt to hit them through disadvantage).

But there's still a two spell limitation, and Darkness is also concentration.  With disadvantage...the enemy has either a 42% chance to hit, or a 36% chance to hit (depending on whether or not you took the Armor of Shadows invocation).  And given that I've been assuming a monster with a multiattack action (3 hits)--you're looking at slightly more than one concentration check per round on average (DC 10).  With a Con of 2, you have to roll 8 or better, (65% success rate).  I would say your concentration lasts for about 2.6 rounds on average once you start Eldritch Blasting.  (Taking an average of 9 damage per turn with the higher AC--so even if you keep your concentration for 3 turns, you've eaten 27 damage on average, which is more than half your health).

You deal about 17.3 damage with an Eldritch Blast attacking with advantage.  (No hex obviously, concentrating on Darkness).  2.6 rounds of this is 45 damage.  Then you cast darkness again, move somewhere unpredictable so that you don't get beat on in your first action after casting darkness, and repeat the process again.  5.2 average rounds of Eldritch Blast before you get knocked out of the second darkness before you lose your concentration, during which you deal 89.9 damage, and take 45 damage (your HP is...45).

And note that you don't have a spare invocation to take Repelling Blast in this situation (Armor of Shadows and Devil's Sight are what I assumed).  It won't matter until you lose concentration, of course, because Darkness turns off the monster's reaction.  But after you lose concentration it's going to suck.

So...yeah, darkness+devil's sight is an option.  It's a strong combo (advantage+disadvantage, and the enemy can't cast spells that require line of sight and can't use attacks of opportunity.  Strong effect, definitely better than the Wizard spell Blur which I was using in the Wizard analysis, for instance).  But unless your DM is like "you cast darkness?  I guess the enemy wanders around confused and never figures out where you are even though you're attacking them" it's not unbeatable.  (And if the DM does interpret darkness as being unbeatable, then they probably don't allow it at their table, or will bring ways to negate the darkness).

So...yeah, strong spell, but we're still working with 2 spell slots, and I'm not sure it's strong enough.

metroid composite

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Re: Theorycrafting! (Because I like competitive metagames too much)
« Reply #703 on: June 18, 2016, 07:27:47 PM »
So...I'm going to take a stab at actually designing the "normal person with no magical ability that just uses trinkets and stuff" that Grefter was talking about.  I'm trying to follow the design and balance of other classes--for instance, I've noticed in the book that if a class has an ASI, that will usually be literally the only thing they gain on that level.  Exceptions seem to be made for minor stuff like cantrips known.  For some reason, Cleric is a big exception to this, gaining a fairly significant domain feature on 8, but nevermind that.

This is also going to be a weird class to balance, because there's no telling if your DM will actually give you magic items that cast magic, especially if they just roll on a loot table.  So...it's going to need goodies so that you feel reasonably valuable even if those class abilities aren't active.

Tinkerer

You are a master with your hands, and a clever problem solver.  If there is a tool that exists, there's a good chance you can figure it out.  You are trying to crack magic as well, and are certain there must be a logical scientific explanation for it all, but for the moment it baffles you.

Hit Dice 1d10 per Tinkerer level.

Proficiencies
Armor: Light Armor and Shields
Weapons: All simple and martial weapons
Tools: Choose any three
Saving Throws: Dexterity and Intelligence
Skills: Choose any two


1st level


Jack of all Trades
You can add half your proficiency bonus (rounded down) to all skill checks that don't already use your proficiency bonus.

Nimble Hands
You can use your bonus action to take the Help action, do the search action with intelligence (Investigation) or wisdom (Perception), take the Use an Object action, Make a dexterity (sleight of hand) check, Make a wisdom (Medicine) check to stabilize a creature, or make a wisdom (Survival) check to identify natural hazards like quicksand.
(Note: no the Use an Object action does not let you activate a magical device).

Clever device usage
Instead of using the DC of a magic item, you may use your Tinkerer spell save DC (8+INT+prof mod).


2nd level


Notebook of Magic
Magic still defies scientific explanation for you, but you are taking notes and have begun to make a little headway.  Choose a cantrip from any class to copy into your notebook.  You can cast this cantrip, but only if you are holding your notebook in your hand and only if you are currently able to read it.  These count as tinkerer spells for you and use your spell save DC (8+Int+prof mod).  You may copy an additional cantrip into your notebook at 4th, 6th, 8th, 10th, 12th, 14th, 16th, and 19th level.

Use Magic Device
You have figured out enough about the working of magic that you can improvise the use of devices that were not built for you; you ignore all class and race descriptions on items.

Expertise
Choose two skill checks or tools to get double proficiency with.


3rd level

Extendable Arms
You can spend 50gp and one long rest to craft extendable arms.  Using a bonus action, you can extend or contract the arms.  While your arms are extended, your reach is increased by +5, but if you try to attack a creature within 5 feet of you, you attack with disadvantage.  While your arms are contracted, you attack as normal.  Extendable Arms can only be used by Tinkerers of 2nd level or higher, or characters with the Use Magic Device class skill.

Ritual Casting
You can now copy ritual spells from any class into your notebook of magic, and you can cast them only as rituals, and only if you have your notebook of magic.  The cost of copying spells into this book follows the Wizard rules.  You can only copy a ritual spell into your notebook if it has the (ritual) tag, and the spell level is no greater than half your Tinkerer level (rounded up).  Additionally, you may add one level 1 ritual for free when you gain this feature.

Item Metamagic (Subtle Spell)
Your tinkering with magic items has given you a skillful amount of control over the spell that comes out.  You can use magic items as if you used the Subtle Spell metamagic.  You may only use one metamagic when you activate an item.


4th level


ASI


5th level


Extra Attack
Blah blah blah hit things.

Item Metamagic (Careful Spell)
Your expertise with magic items has allowed you to sculpt the spells they produce to reduce harm to your allies.

Bonus proficiencies
You gain proficiency with 2 more skill checks and one tool check of your choice.


6th level


ASI


7th level


Expertise
Choose two more skills or tools to add double your proficiency.

Battlemagic
You've mastered weaving magic and weaponry together.  When you cast a spell or use an item to cast a spell, you can use your bonus action to make one weapon attack.

Item Metamagic (Empowered Spell)
When you roll damage for a spell, if you use this metamagic you can reroll a number of damage dice up to your intelligence modifier.
NOTE: unlike the sorcerer version of this metamagic, you can not combine this with other metamagic.

Spring Mounted Pillow
You can spend a long rest and 50gp to craft a spring mounted pillow.  While equipped, when an attacker you can see hits you with an attack, you can use your reaction to press a button extending the pillow to halve that damage.  This can only be equipped by Tinkerers of 2nd level or higher, or by characters with the Use Magic Device class feature.  If someone -without- proficiency equips this, they can successfully press the button to block one attack, but they won't get the pillow back into its compartment, causing them to make attack rolls, dexterity based skill checks, and concentration checks with disadvantage.


8th level


ASI


9th level


Helicopter Hat
You can spend 100 gp and a long rest crafting a device that is a hat, with a helicopter that can sprout from inside of it.  It allows you to at will cast Levitate on yourself.  If the hat is removed from your person, the effects of the spell end.  Operating this Helicopter Hat is so complex that only a Tinkerer of 2nd level or greater, or someone with Use Magic Device can use it.

Item Metamagic (Extend Spell)
You can extend the duration of a spell cast by an item to twice its normal length.



10th level


Spell Empowerment
When you use a damage or healing spell (through an item or through innate spellcasting ability) you can add your Int modifier to one damage roll, or healing roll of the spell.

Jack of Your Own Trades
You now add an extra half your proficiency bonus (rounded down) to all skill checks, not just the ones with which you lacked proficiency.  (So untrained -> 1/2 prof.  Proficiency -> 3/2 prof.  Expertise -> 5/2 prof).


11th level


Item Metamagic (Quickened Spell)
You can cast spells from your items as a bonus action when you use this metamagic.  Note that normal spellcasting rules apply (you can't cast a bonus action spell and a non-cantrip in the same turn).

Ze Goggles
You are able to spend 100 gp and a long rest to manufacture goggles that allow you to see in magical and nonmagical darkness as if it is bright light, see invisible creatures, and see through illusions, but limits your vision to 30 feet while you are wearing them (you are blind beyond this distance until you remove the goggles).  These goggles also have the side-effect of making your eyes appear twice their normal size.  Operating these goggles is so complex that only a Tinkerer of 2nd level or greater, or someone with Use Magic Device can use them.


12th level


ASI


13th level


Elusive
You are so adept on your feet that attackers rarely get the upper hand on you.  No attack against you has advantage while you aren't incapacitated.

Metamagic (Heightened Spell)
When you make a spell that requires a saving throw, you can cause one target of the spell to make their saving throw with disadvantage.


14th level


ASI


15th level


Item Metamagic (Twin Spell)
When you use an item to cast a spell that doesn't have a range of self, and is capable of targeting only one target, you can choose a second target.

Evasion
When you are subjected to an effect that lets you make a dexterity saving throw for half damage, you instead take no damage on a successful save, and half damage on an unsuccessful save.


16th level


ASI


17th level


Item Metamagic (Distant Spell)
You can double the range of spells you cast using items.  If the spell has a range of touch, it now has a range of 30 feet.

Extra Attack (2)
You can now make three attacks, just like a fighter.


18th level


Superior Helicopter Hat control
You have become so adept with your helicopter hat that you gain the following benefits while using it.  You can replicate the effects of the Fly spell on yourself, and staying airborne no longer requires your concentration.


19th level


ASI


20th level


EUREKA, Magic makes sense
Your SCIENCE is finally starting to make a breakthrough in understanding magic.  Add six 1st level Wizard spells into your notebook of magic.  You can cast them without using spell slots as long as you are holding your notebook of magic, and as long as you are able to read your notebook.  You can copy 1st level Wizard into your notebook using the normal Wizard rules for transcribing magic.
(EDITED)(Commentary: this capstone is pretty broken.  Infinite out of combat healing.  Spam Bless as you walk around.  Use the Shield spell in-combat if you have a hand free to hold your notebook--basically turns your notebook into a +3 shield.  But it's a capstone, and most of the benefits are out of combat, so whatever).



Mmm...ok, so balance concerns (other than yes the capstone is busted)--does this crowd out Rogue?  I don't think so--Rogue gets most of the same abilities, a bunch of extra ones I threw out due to ASIs on those levels, and Sneak Attack, and honestly Cunning Action is probably better than the bonus action options I listed here (which is why I put that as a level 1 ability).  The one ability Rogue doesn't get is advantage on initiative (I took that from Barbarian) and Jack of all Trades (taken from Bard).  Does this crowd out Fighter?  Maybe?  Well...ok I mean...no medium or heavy armor, no fighting style, no action surge till level 18, no indomitable.  No archetype bonuses like superiority dice.  TBH fighters should deal more damage at basically every level.  But Tinkerer gets the same ASIs combined with some Rogue goodies like Evasion and Uncanny Dodge and skillmonkeying.  Maybe I should remove one of the ASIs?  (Fighter gets 3 extra ASIs, Rogue gets 1 extra, maybe Tinkerer should only get 2 extra?  Remove the ASI at...level 10?  Mmm...maybe; "dip 11 levels of fighter for a 3rd attack" is a thing--Tinkerer does force you to dip to level 13 for that attack, but maybe it should also give you one less ASI for your trouble?  Although...honestly, the kind of multiclass that takes 11 levels of fighter to optimize weapon damage probably wants a fighting style, and probably wants action surge, and might very well want heavy armor.  So...maybe there's no issue?)
« Last Edit: June 19, 2016, 04:31:30 AM by metroid composite »

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Theorycrafting! (Because I like competitive metagames too much)
« Reply #704 on: June 18, 2016, 07:36:33 PM »
Fighter only gets two ASIs (at 6 and 14; they don't get one at 10). So Tinkerer certainly shouldn't have 3 (and even 2 is kinda pushing it, that feels like it's stealing fighter's "thing" for all that it's still balanced so hey go for it if you feel it fits).

I would shy away from literal infinite healing, as well. While it won't be broken in some campaigns, it completely ruins some others, and it feels like something D&D has gone to pains to avoid.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2016, 07:38:51 PM by Dark Holy Elf »

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metroid composite

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Re: Theorycrafting! (Because I like competitive metagames too much)
« Reply #705 on: June 18, 2016, 07:53:14 PM »
Fighter only gets two ASIs (at 6 and 14; they don't get one at 10). So Tinkerer certainly shouldn't have 3 (and even 2 is kinda pushing it, that feels like it's stealing fighter's "thing" for all that it's still balanced so hey go for it if you feel it fits).

I would shy away from literal infinite healing, as well. While it won't be broken in some campaigns, it completely ruins some others, and it feels like something D&D has gone to pains to avoid.

Oh, huh, yeah, ok I thought Fighter had three.  Will adjust.

Avoiding the "stealing things" feeling is going to be tricky, when I literally just took aspects of a few classes and mixed and matched.

The infinite healing can be avoided by limiting this to Wizard, Sorcerer, or Warlock level 1 spells.  (Or probably just Wizard spells, which...the game is already balanced to let those be cast for free due to the level 17 Wizard ability).

OK, editing.  Will move the +Int ability from level 11 to level 10 ability, and have it apply to all magic (so applies to your cantrips, or lets you multiclass, and doesn't feel weird that it's your only ability at that level).  Also, this ability really didn't need to be on the same level as a metamagic.


EDIT2: shuffling around some metamagic--the previous move had Empower Spell metamagic as 9th level, when the +int is 10th level; feels weird that those would be right next to each other; moving Empower Spell earlier.


EDIT3: swapped Evasion and Battle Magic (7->15 and 15->7).  Cause my god, Evasion is good.  And Eh, Battle Magic isn't that good on a class that already has features around bonus actions.


EDIT4: Changed the level 11 talent from Rogue's "Reliable Talent" to an actually new skill (an upgrade to Jack of All Trades).  Probably a downgrade TBH, but Reliable Talent is how Rogues stand out in the skill monkey business, so I wanted to keep it unique to Rogue.


EDIT5: Removed Blindsense, added "Ze Goggles" and moved it to level 11.  Just a more thematic ability.

EDIT6: Removed the Barbarian advantage on initiative skill.  Added Helicopter Hat (which is mostly just a re-skinned Warlock Invocation Ascendant Step).  Reason for removing the Barbarian Skill is that...you have extra ASIs, might as well not take away stuff like the Alert feat from the list of interesting feats you might want.  Reason for adding Helicopter Hat is that it's cool.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2016, 09:56:19 PM by metroid composite »

Grefter

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Re: Theorycrafting! (Because I like competitive metagames too much)
« Reply #706 on: June 19, 2016, 01:55:27 AM »
I approve of all of this.  Especially edit 6.

It is slightly different flavours than I envisioned hut it is still deliciously flavourful.
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metroid composite

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Re: Theorycrafting! (Because I like competitive metagames too much)
« Reply #707 on: June 19, 2016, 03:19:57 AM »
I approve of all of this.  Especially edit 6.

It is slightly different flavours than I envisioned hut it is still deliciously flavourful.

Not going to lie, after writing edit 6, I watched an episode of inspector gadget to see if I could come up with other appropriate re-skins.  (Mage Hand could be re-skinned to be an extending arm.  Some sort of spider climb effect could be re-skinned to be suction cups--although in functionality this competes with levitate).

On the extending limb idea, One thought that might be worth pursuing is a contraption where you can use a bonus action to extend or contract your arms.  When they are extended, you add +5 to your reach, but if you try to attack a target within 5 feet of you, you attack with disadvantage.  When they contract, you go back to normal (no reach, but no disadvantage on nearby targets).  In fact, I'll probably edit that in somewhere.



Current thoughts--I think some abilities could move around.  I think this class might be a little bit weak early.  There's a reason to pick them over Fighters (Skillmonkey).  But in comparison to Rogue...Rogues get most of the same skillmonkey stuff, but also get Evasion at level 7, get sneak attack, get the better Cunning Action.  What Rogues lose early on is...shields, martial weapons, d10 hit dice, flavour.  So...a small amount of durability, most of which could be fixed by a 1 level dip.  By comparison, I think there's a lot of high power abilities in the level15-18 range now (evasion, quicken metamagic, action surge).

EDIT: Added Extendable Arms at 3rd level.  Then 3rd level was crowded, so I moved extra proficiencies to 5th level.  Then 5th level was crowded so I moved Uncanny Dodge to 7th level.

EDIT2: Removed the class limitation on Battlemagic.  If you want to dip 7 levels of Tinkerer to get a bonus action attack on spellcasting before going into your full caster, yeah, ok you do that.

EDIT3: put Quickened Spell on level 11, and moved Extra Attack(2) to level 17.  (And shuffled around distant spell to 17 and elusive to 13 to keep the same number of abilities).  The idea being to have more of a gradual curve--at level 11 you can get a quickened spell and two attacks.  At level 17 you can get a quickened spell and three attacks.

EDIT4: moved "clever device usage" from level 3 to level 1--it's a pretty minor ability that has to appear somewhere, and level 3 had 4 text blocks, while level 1 had 2 text blocks.

EDIT5: Re-skinned Uncanny dodge as Spring Mounted Pillow.

EDIT6: removed Action Surge on level 18.  Replaced it with Superior Helicopter Hat Control.

EDIT7: Moved Jack of your own Trades to level 10 (from 11) as there was currently only one level 10 ability.

EDIT8: Added a description of what happens when someone without UMD tries to use Spring Mounted Pillow.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2016, 04:32:16 AM by metroid composite »

metroid composite

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Re: Theorycrafting! (Because I like competitive metagames too much)
« Reply #708 on: June 19, 2016, 05:48:16 AM »
OK, I guess I should probably analyze what this capstone actually does.

1st level Wizard spells

Alarm (ritual--already had it)
Burning Hands (worse than cantrips)
Charm Person (Slightly better Friends cantrip)
Chromatic Orb (worse than cantrips)
Colour Spray (lol, 33 HP?)
Comprehend Languages (ritual--already had it)
Detect Magic (ritual--already had it)
Disguise Self (you're probably proficient with the disguise kit but ok)
Expeditious Retreat (Well...it's one part of Rogue's Cunning Action; concentration tho--pretty niche)
False Life (Gain 8 temporary hitpoints between fights.  Self only.  OK sure, not complaining).
Feather Fall (Narrow but handy for an ally who doesn't have a helicopter hat.  Castable through reaction).
Find Familiar (ritual--already had it)
Fog Cloud (Narrow, but has utility--use on enemy casters or archers so they can't get line of sight; concentration tho)
Grease (Oh, snap, this doesn't use concentration.  This is not bad.  Might not be worth your action in combat by level 20, though?  Actually, probably is still worthwhile if you can choke up a door while knocking a couple people down.  So...it's niche I guess)
Illusory Script (ritual--already had it)
Jump (it's not concentration, so you can keep your whole team with Jump ready to go; 1 minute duration, though--gotta spam it.  Or just cast it when you need it, which probably isn't that often).
***Longstrider*** (1 hour duration; +10ft movement speed to your whole party.  So...basically +10 movement to your whole party.  Very very good)
Mage Armour (It's a nice spell, but pretty minor application to a level 20 character who can probably get +1 leather armor--you can cast it on people who don't have light armor, so save the Wizard or Wild Magic Sorcerer a level 1 spell slot and let them prepare a different spell, or maybe cast it on a Druid who plans to be in Wild Shape).
Magic Missile (Never misses, 3 concentration checks for enemies--there are niche moments when you use this over a cantrip)
Protection from Evil and Good (Niche, and takes concentration, but has enough benefits that it might be worth it when the niche comes up)
Ray of Sickness (no, use cantrips)
***Shield*** (Obviously fantastic; mitigated a bit by the notebook taking up a hand slot requirement,  so it's not as good as when Wizard gets it for free).
Silent Image (upgrade to the Minor Illusion cantrip)
Sleep (affects 22 HP worth of enemies?  Nope)
***Tasha's Hideous Laughter*** (Uh, yeah, at will Tasha's Hideous Laughter doesn't sound bad at all)
Tenser's Floating Disk (ritual--already had it)
Thunder Wave (Maybe for the AoE shove?)
***Unseen Servant*** (They last an hour without concentration.  You can summon like...100 of these.  Each one has a strength of 2, which means a carrying capacity of 30 lbs, and an ability to push 60 lbs.  I mean, they have 1 HP and can't attack, so this doesn't really do anything in-combat.  But that's a lot of out-of-combat shenanigans).
Witch bolt (no, use cantrips)

Mmm...yeah, it's nice.  With the Shield spell needing a hand to hold the book, it doesn't do any one spell ridiculously well, but there's still overall a decent amount of power here, and a lot of utility.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2016, 05:50:41 AM by metroid composite »

metroid composite

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Re: Theorycrafting! (Because I like competitive metagames too much)
« Reply #709 on: June 26, 2016, 06:26:10 PM »
Well um...I made some pretty big mistakes in my Rogue calculations.

First, I assumed that with a range weapon you would keep advantage through all the shots if you hid (only the first shot unless you take the Skulker feat).

But second, and more important, I assumed that Rogue got the Extra Attack class feature.  They.......don't.

(And third I just had some straight up miscalculations, like not multiplying by the accuracy, oops; I mean 91% accuracy, but it still matters).



Well...spoiler alert, Rogues are going to suck.

+8 to hit (+4 (dex), +1 (magic), +3 (prof)), so 70% chance to hit.  Advantage turns this into 91% chance to hit.

I should probably also figure out the probability of bonus action hide working.  Perceptions in the monster manual at CR6...I see passive perceptions ranging from 10 to 19 (with probably 16 being the most common).  Proficiency with Perception is very common in the monster manual; a few enemies also seem to have Expertise with perception.  I'll split the difference and say the passive perception we're trying to sneak past is 15.  Rogue will have expertise in stealth, so +10, needs to roll 6 or higher as we need to get above 15 not match 15 (stealth is a contested check, so ties mean that the previous result keeps holding--the previous result is the enemy seeing the rogue).  So...75% chance to stealth.

(I'll assume that Rogue has an a dummy ally that can stand next to an enemy in the stealth failure check--like a familiar or something; not a true 1v1, but probably a bit closer to a normal battle situation.  I will however assume that they're using a ranged weapon as that's the only real way they can use bonus action hide every turn.  And when they do fail their stealth check, I'll give them the -2 partial cover accuracy penalty for firing into melee without sharpshooter).

Well...since they only have one attack, might as well use a light crossbow for 1d8 damage.

Accuracy: 4(dex)+1(magic)+3(prof) = +8, need to roll 7 or better to hit AC 15 (70% chance, 91% chance with advantage, 60% if we need to shoot into melee).  Since I'm allowing sneak attack either way, we can just do .91*.75+.6*.25 = 0.832 = 83.2% chance to hit.

Damage is 4(dex)+1(magic)+1d8+3d6 = 20.  (After accuracy: 16.6 average damage per round).


16.6 is...pretty bad.  Like...roughly half of what the good damage dealers are dealing at this level.  (Going sharpshooter you can get 16.7 average at the expense of being considerably less reliable.  Oh, and it costs you AC as well because you are a Rogue and don't have medium armour.  Yeah...no, Sharpshooter's not good here.  But at least it makes you more accurate when you need to fire into melee...which is more often now due to failing to hide more often).

So...yeah, Rogues, pretty trashy actually.  If you go melee and aim for opportunity attacks, and use nearby allies to set up sneak attack....Well for starters you're looking at a 70% hit rate (no penalty for attacking into melee).  So like...14 average damage per attack action that gets sneak attack.  If you can do that a second time with a reaction, now it's 28 average damage.  So...a front-liner Rogue who manages to get an attack of opportunity with sneak attack every round keeps up to other classes (provided those classes don't use an AoO themselves).  But other than that...ew.  Maybe just a bad level for Rogue cause all the other classes just got an extra attack.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2016, 11:20:19 PM by metroid composite »

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Re: Theorycrafting! (Because I like competitive metagames too much)
« Reply #710 on: June 26, 2016, 06:40:30 PM »
Yeah the "right after Extra Attack and L3 spells" is a bad part of the game for Rogue offensively.

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Re: Theorycrafting! (Because I like competitive metagames too much)
« Reply #711 on: June 27, 2016, 12:08:03 AM »
Yeah the "right after Extra Attack and L3 spells" is a bad part of the game for Rogue offensively.

I was under the impression that they were supposed to be kind-of glass cannons, though.

Like...level 6 if they get sneak attack but don't have advantage (e.g. by attacking someone who's in melee with an ally) then they deal...roughly Eldritch Blast damage.  (70% to hit.  19 if it does hit.  By Comparison, Eldritch Blast is...70% to hit, 19 if it does hit).  Actually no, I didn't add +1 damage for magic in my last post--let me edit that in.  Ok, so it's 20 to 19 damage.

By comparison at level 20 with +3 magic weapons/+3 rod of the pact keeper against...let's say 20AC...prof bonus is +6, magic bonus is +3, stat bonus is +5, so +14 to hit.  Need to roll 6 or better; 75% chance to hit (for both).

Rogue deals 10d6(sneak)+1d8(rapier or light crossbow)+5(dex)+3(magic) = 47.5  (with 75% to hit so 35.6)
Warlock deals 4*(5+5.5) = 42 (with 75% hit, so 31.5)

Of course, that's without Hex; with Hex Warlock deals like...56 (with 75% hit, so 42.0).


Level 12 or so is going to be similar.  Warlock will have 3 blasts by this point, so 31.5.  Rogue is looking at 6d6+1d8(rapier or light crossbow)+5(dex)+2(magic) = 32.5.  Same accuracy, so I'll skip calculating that part.  Again, slightly better for the Rogue, but slightly worse if the Warlock uses Hex.


I mean, not that Eldritch Blast is bad, and I'm not factoring in advantage which Rogue is pretty good at getting, and Warlock needs to spend spell slots to get.  But these aren't exactly glass cannon numbers.  (35.6?  there were moderately sustainable damage turns slightly below that number at level 6, let alone level 20).


EDIT: to be clear, Rogue is a fine multiclass.  Take extra attacks and martial weapons and fighting style from any other class; mix in some sneak attacks.  Now you're just dealing extra damage.  It's just weird that single-classed Rogue is kinda mediocre.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2016, 12:21:38 AM by metroid composite »

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Re: Theorycrafting! (Because I like competitive metagames too much)
« Reply #712 on: June 27, 2016, 12:26:02 AM »
Hm. Rogue really likes getting second attacks (two weapon fighting, Crossbow expert, etc.) because they only need to land one for Sneak Attack. Not sure how much those would help here, since I know you're assuming they use the bonus for constant hide spam (this is not generally reflective of how I've personally seen rogue played, not least because you can't always hide... well, halflings usually can). Rogue does benefit a lot from other sources of advantage: barbarian wolf totem, invisibility spells, allies who knock people prone, Assassinate, etc.) but that's hard to reflect here.

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Re: Theorycrafting! (Because I like competitive metagames too much)
« Reply #713 on: June 27, 2016, 06:59:32 AM »
Hm. Rogue really likes getting second attacks (two weapon fighting, Crossbow expert, etc.) because they only need to land one for Sneak Attack. Not sure how much those would help here, since I know you're assuming they use the bonus for constant hide spam (this is not generally reflective of how I've personally seen rogue played, not least because you can't always hide... well, halflings usually can). Rogue does benefit a lot from other sources of advantage: barbarian wolf totem, invisibility spells, allies who knock people prone, Assassinate, etc.) but that's hard to reflect here.
That's a good point--if you take two attacks instead of one, it's kind-of like having advantage to hit (except you can also hit both, so the average damage is slightly higher).  You don't have a shield or anything, either, so there's no real downside to TWF.  Crossbow Expert is good, yeah, but takes an ASI, takes a bonus action...which unlike fighter Rogue has lots of good things to do with their bonus action, and lowers your AC if you prioritize it over DEX.

Wood Halfling, Wood Elf, and people with the Skulker feat can hide a lot.

Ways of granting people advantage are good, of course, but they also usually apply to anyone making attack rolls.  (Like...if you had a Warlock instead of a Rogue in your party, you could stick greater invisibility on the warlock, and Eldritch Blast away).  Obviously if you have both in your party, you give it to the Rogue, because not getting sneak attack with Rogue is really bad, whereas not having advantage with Warlock...eh, you'll be fine.  But again, you need more effort for the Rogue, so it's weird that the output is similar.

Though, again, with multiclassing the Rogue does just fine.  For example, Rogue/Barbarian gets an extra attack at Barb 5, and can consistently get advantage with Reckless Attack.  (You need to use strength for reckless attack, but Finesse weapons can use either STR or DEX, and sneak attack just requires finesse weapons).  Also, as long as you're dipping 5 levels of Barbarian, here have a free +10ft movement (to go with that Bonus Action Dash you already have).

Or Rogue dipping...even one level of Fighter to get a giant pile of equipment and a fighting style.  (Or more levels for extra attacks and ASIs n shit.  Rogue 12, Fighter 8 gets more ASIs by level 20 than any other build in the game (8 ASIs))

Or Rogue/Paladin, with Oath of Vengeance for advantage.

Like...it's weird cause Rogue is a fantastic class when multiclassing, but just seems to be missing pieces when it monoclasses.

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Re: Theorycrafting! (Because I like competitive metagames too much)
« Reply #714 on: June 27, 2016, 07:23:43 AM »
I wouldn't allow Sneak Attack from Reckless alone since it goes entirely against the flavour, though I agree 100% by RAW that it would work.

Quote
Rogue 12, Fighter 8 gets more ASIs by level 20 than any other build in the game (8 ASIs))

Nah, just 7? The usual five from every class level divisible by 4, the one from Fighter 6, the one from Rogue 10. So, same as normal Fighter. The only other bonus ASI is Fighter 14, which you don't hit.

Quote
Ways of granting people advantage are good, of course, but they also usually apply to anyone making attack rolls.  (Like...if you had a Warlock instead of a Rogue in your party, you could stick greater invisibility on the warlock, and Eldritch Blast away). 

This is absolutely true, yeah. However, it helps further take pressure off them needing to waste their bonus action on hiding, allowing them to use those for attacks. And while I agree that rogue has cool bonus action options, they are still just that: options. Advantages they have other classes don't (bonus dash, bonus disengage, etc.).


For what it's worth I think I agree that rogue is probably one of the weaker classes overall, but they serve a valuable skill niche and can take apart some fights well depending on build (like, while you won't surprise things very often, Assassin is very very very good the rare times you do).
« Last Edit: June 27, 2016, 07:27:08 AM by Dark Holy Elf »

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Re: Theorycrafting! (Because I like competitive metagames too much)
« Reply #715 on: July 01, 2016, 07:35:54 AM »
Nah, just 7? The usual five from every class level divisible by 4, the one from Fighter 6, the one from Rogue 10. So, same as normal Fighter. The only other bonus ASI is Fighter 14, which you don't hit.

Let's see...Fighter 4, 6, 8 (3).  Rogue 4, 8, 10, 12 (4).  Yeah, 7, my bad.

Quote
For what it's worth I think I agree that rogue is probably one of the weaker classes overall, but they serve a valuable skill niche and can take apart some fights well depending on build (like, while you won't surprise things very often, Assassin is very very very good the rare times you do).

Oh sure.  But like...this comes back to discussions about reliability.  Being very good once every 5 fights is...underwhelming.

Side note, they did a formal ruling on Contagion:

http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/rules-answers-june-2016

Q: Do contagion effects kick in immediately, or do they kick in when the target fails the three saving throws?
A: The effects of the contagion spell's disease are meant to activate after three failed saving throws.

Also noteworthy: minor illusion is confirmed to be completely stationary.  (This was to be expected when silent image had "you can now add motion").

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Re: Theorycrafting! (Because I like competitive metagames too much)
« Reply #716 on: July 27, 2016, 02:54:04 AM »
I think this is the place for this discussion?  It seems like it.  Its this or Misc links but I don't wanna bog down Misc Links with it and want a real deep dive on this one.  Also note this is going to be chock full of personal bias because in case no one noticed, I am RU as fuck and R is my fave.

Today's card from Robo Rosewater Hidden Sands, I think is the strongest design for a Red Control card I have seen in years.

The flavour is super on point, it doesn't eat up the colour pie (R does unpreventable damage).  It plays into R weakness regarding Enchantments and the way R is its own worst enemy (I can't handle enchantments, obviously no one else can.  wait what whyyyyyyyyyyyy? you cheaters.)

The interaction between whether your opponent holds that creature is pretty rad.  The additional reach it gives you (Cast it on a creature with low HP, get 7 face damage out of your Pyroclasm?  Sick) when tied with the potential CC it gives you if tying up an opponent's creature adds in a lot more interaction with attacking/defending than R normally does outside of damage in hand.

Just so good.
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Re: Theorycrafting! (Because I like competitive metagames too much)
« Reply #717 on: July 27, 2016, 08:24:51 AM »
That's not a control card.  It's 7 damage of reach.  Red has lots of ways to kill enemy creatures anyway, which it uses to kill blockers.  (Put this on an enemy creature, then kill it with shock or whatever.  Or put it on a creature they would have chump blocked with and attack).

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Re: Theorycrafting! (Because I like competitive metagames too much)
« Reply #718 on: July 27, 2016, 10:17:13 AM »
It is control of you pressure your opponent not to interact on the board with that creature.  But yeah it is mostly burn and turning board control cards into extra reach.
NO MORE POKEMON - Meeplelard.
The king perfect of the DL is and always will be Excal. - Superaielman
Don't worry, just jam it in anyway. - SirAlex
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Re: Theorycrafting! (Because I like competitive metagames too much)
« Reply #719 on: July 27, 2016, 03:35:02 PM »
It is control of you pressure your opponent not to interact on the board with that creature.  But yeah it is mostly burn and turning board control cards into extra reach.
But if you're playing a control deck, the punishment isn't really relevant.  Control decks don't race down their opponent's life totals, so if your opponent is a fast deck they can probably just eat 7 damage and kill you first anyway.

AND if the 7 damage punishment is relevant, but you don't have a way to activate it, it's 4 mana for a weaker effect than Pacifisim.  (Like...they sort of can't attack with the enchanted creature, except they can attack if you don't have the creatures to block. They sort-of can't block with the enchanted creature...but they can if their blocker is bigger than your attacker).  And bear in mind, pacifisim doesn't show up in tournaments much--it's not considered that strong.  A weaker pacifisim at 2 mana would be bad.  A card with a weaker effect than pacifisim that costs 4 mana is...nope.

Really, this card is mostly good if you activate it with your own removal to kill the opponent fast.  (And not even that amazing, since you're using two cards and 5+ mana to burn your opponent for 7.  You could also do that with a 2 mana 3 damage burn spell (to face), followed up by a 3 mana 4 damage burn spell (to face).  The one nice thing is that you also kill a small blocker instead of sending two burn spells to the face.  That's more value.  The not so nice thing is that burn spells are very flexible, whereas this is less flexible).
« Last Edit: July 27, 2016, 03:41:26 PM by metroid composite »

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Re: Theorycrafting! (Because I like competitive metagames too much)
« Reply #720 on: July 27, 2016, 04:33:41 PM »
Oh certainly way over costed to be playable.  You set it up and see it from a mile away even if it was cheap.  I don't know if it would ever see play, I doubt it ever would be particularly good unless it was obscenely under costed to the point you just use it purely as burn without letting it sit on board.

What I am after more is how much of a cohesive piece of design it is that plays in a very untraditional R space.  I mean checking the existing Auras there is stray things like Sluggishness, Earthbind that interact with the opponent's stuff, but most if it isn't really choices for the opponent to react so much as forces them to attack or not block.  It is oceans of buffs otherwise.

A red Aura that still pushes Red style impacts to the game (not blocking/attacking) and driving it with burning the face.  It is just a good bit of R design that pushes the envelope harder than R normally gets.
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Re: Theorycrafting! (Because I like competitive metagames too much)
« Reply #721 on: July 31, 2016, 06:10:57 PM »
I wrote a thing about D&D 5e:

https://np.reddit.com/r/dndnext/comments/4vazm8/solets_talk_about_jack_of_all_trades_reliable/

The short version is this.  Rogue at level 11 has a skill called Reliable Talent.  If you add your proficiency to an ability check, any roll below 10 is treated as a 10.

Bard at level 2 has a skill called Jack of All Trades, which lets you add half your proficiency to every ability check.  These two class traits have been ruled to work together by Jeremy Crawford:

http://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/12/11/do-remarkable-athlete-or-jack-of-all-trades-trigger-reliable-talent/

Which...there were arguments about this:

isn't this too powerful?  Why does adding half your proficiency count as adding proficiency?

I argue that it's not such a big deal--if you really want to be the king of skill checks, you can get proficiency in all skill checks by dipping one more level into Bard, one more level into Cleric (Knowledge), and taking a feat.  (This also gives you expertise in 4 more skills, which is a big deal in the level 14+ range).  (Although yes, the Jack of All Trades + Reliable Talent combo it still works on ability checks that don't use a skill--most notably initiative).

There is a different discussion in that topic, though about what it means for party balance to have one character be very good at all skill checks.  (Which is a problem not really created by the Reliable Jack combo).
« Last Edit: July 31, 2016, 06:14:47 PM by metroid composite »

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Re: Theorycrafting! (Because I like competitive metagames too much)
« Reply #722 on: July 31, 2016, 06:47:37 PM »
Quote from: literally that thread[/quote
What's a GM meant to do when player characters are capable of doing anything at all????????   What do you mean there is opportunity cost that isn't enormous but has a net positive outcome????????
NO MORE POKEMON - Meeplelard.
The king perfect of the DL is and always will be Excal. - Superaielman
Don't worry, just jam it in anyway. - SirAlex
Gravellers are like, G-Unit - Trancey.

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Re: Theorycrafting! (Because I like competitive metagames too much)
« Reply #723 on: August 12, 2016, 07:09:50 PM »
A spreadsheet someone else made of 5e damage.  Doesn't seem to account for accuracy, or use +10 feats, but has the starting groundwork to look those up.  I might improve on this....

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1JIrEV1RFv6yxWEdqG6zP3z-ZONDTacquGyqYj8G-CdE/edit#gid=1769534668

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Re: Theorycrafting! (Because I like competitive metagames too much)
« Reply #724 on: August 23, 2016, 03:35:32 PM »
Instead of doing something useful while I had no internet, I did something completely useless.

"What if in 5e you could gain class levels in any order?"

https://www.reddit.com/r/dndnext/comments/4z575z/what_if_you_could_gain_levels_in_a_class_in_any/