Theorycrafting! (Because I like competitive metagames too much)

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Starcraft

ASL Group D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2r9k0fnE3Hs

So in PvZ there is a dark archon that did work, as well as defilers (that frankly didn't get very much done and got feedbacked by the dark archon).

There was also a successful marine medic rush against protoss.  Zerg very reliably going muta scourge vs protoss as well.

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Starcraft

ASL group E

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t4ed2cFyhjY

So the interesting thing is not necessarily in the games, but in the commentary--Artosis is mentioning that more terrans than usual qualified, and they mostly did so by getting upsets over zergs considered better than them, and mostly from this new valkyrie build which uses often many valkyries and doesn't get science vessels fast at all.  There is a pretty big downside to this build, though, which is hold position lurkers, which are demonstrated in one of these games and did substantially swing the game in the zerg's favour.

Otherwise...got to see a bit of mech vs zerg, but playing from behind, and then was out of position with valkyries and let all the tanks die to mutas, so...nothing too special.

Saw carriers vs terran--they're back after being gone for basically a whole season.  Yeah, they absolutely smashed.

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Starcraft

ASL Group F

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cK1Syh7-kL0

Stork goes carriers every game.  Wins one, loses the other two.  An actual example of carriers not working!

Other than that, a guardian push from zerg that was just a terrible idea that failed.  More hydra lurker defiler as well, but just got way behind early.

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Starcraft ASL round of 16 group A

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EUxSdyc2ie0

So...a lot of zerg vs zerg, which contained the same 3 units as usual.  (Some very interesting zerg vs zergs, but in terms of was there surprise hive tech--no, there wasn't).

Some zerg vs Terran, which had interesting stuff.  The first instance of Ultralisks all season (which was successful)--involved the zerg taking an early third at a natural of another base on a 4 player map, which guaranteed them a 4th gas, letting them get ultras and defilers at the same time.  The other cute play was a slow overlord drop of lurkers when muta harass was doing well.  Terran made valkyries, which just left them with no way to handle the lurkers.

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Starcraft ASL round of 16 group B

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vELbjTuBn7Q

3 terrans and a zerg.

The TvT games were a bit interesting, cause there were some very good demonstrations of why everyone goes mass vulture in TvT with a few games won off of just early mass vulture snowball.  Otherwise, relatively normal stuff.  Quite a bit of wraith play, specifically going wraiths when ahead significantly in economy, as it forces the other player to respond with goliaths which really locks down their mobility.  One valkyrie.

Zerg was all the style expected of this season--a lot of hydra lurker defiler lategame.  The one interesting zerg play was zerg getting a very early scout on a factory play, figuring out vultures were coming, and getting speed hydras into the base.  Trying to remember if there were any valkyries this time--I don't actually remember seeing valkyries.

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(S tier?)
Zergling, Siege Tank, Mutalisk

(gap)

(A tier?)
Zealot, Vulture, Reaver, Dragoon

(gap)

(B tier?)
Scourge, Corsair, Goliath, Overlord
Science Vessel, Defiler, High Templar, Shuttle (maybe on the low end of tier)

(gap)

(C tier?)
Medic+Marine, Hydra, Carrier, Arbiter, Probe, SCV

(gap)

(D tier?)
Dark Templar, Observer, Dropship, Lurker, Wraith, Dark Archon

(gap)

(E tier?)
Battlecruiser, Valkyrie, Archon, Ultralisk, Queen, Drone

(gap)

(F tier?)
Guardian, Firebat

(gap)

(G tier?)
Devourer, Scout, Ghost

OK, so revisiting this, I think the candidates for movement (based on the new season) are...

Carriers down

Hydras up

Lurkers up

Valkyries up

Ultralisk down

Goliath down

Queen down

Defilers up

Arbiters up

Not necessarily a full tier of movement from all of these.  Probably doesn't make sense to have hydra above goliath, for example.  And I don't think Ultras belong in the same tier as guardians for example.  Will need to look in more detail.

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Starcraft ASL Ro16 group C

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXw0_XHs_xg&t=7626s

A few interesting things going on here.

Light demonstrates his mass valyrie into mech build against zerg.  The build still opens on bio, but gets upgrades for mech, and about 5 valkyries.  Valkyries are a lot better than I thought at killing scourge before the scourge hit--I thought because of the animation of the missiles that scourge would nearly always hit, but nope.

There's also a new build against protoss that goes cloak wraith--specifically because protosses have become so good with shuttle reaver and wraiths hunt down the shuttle.  One wraith against a shuttle as a drop was always a thing, but multiple wraiths seems to be used to answer protosses who just sit outside the Terran's base with a Reaver and keep them contained forever.

Also featured, a lategame zerg that had Ling Ultra Defiler Hydra.  So far zergs have generally picked one--either lurker hydra defiler, or ultra defiler.  But here's a zerg (with a ton of resources) who actually got both.  Possibly spurred on by the presence of battlecruisers.

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ok, trying this rating system again, but with goliaths/hydras:

4: matchup defining (defilers in ZvT, vultures in TvP, Siege Tanks in TvT)
3: mostly core, weird to play without them, but possible (Marine/Medic TvZ, Lurkers ZvT, High Templar PvT)
2: Nice to have (Dark Templar in every matchup, Ultras ZvT, Valkyries TvZ)
1: Has uses, but won't come up much (Dark Archons PvZ, Queens ZvT, Battlecruiser TvZ)
0: no use in the matchup.

Goliath

ZvZ: 3 probably?  Compared to hydras they are 50% more expensive, for...a lot more durability (against zerglings and mutas, they are about double the durability of a hydra because +1 armour is actually ridiculously relevant against both these units), 36% more air damage (less than I thought because their attack speed is a bit slow, although 8 range and really punishing enemy mutas for sharking in and out is what matters), and 63% more ground damage (because zerglings take half damage from hydras).  That said, goliaths need critical mass, are very weak as an attack unit because Sunkens destroy them, so some ZvZs would still end before Goliaths.

ZvT: 1?  In the currently popular Defiler/Hydra/Lurker build, I think they could fill the role that Hydras currently have, while being better against marines (1 armour, not explosive damage) better against firebats (take 1/4 damage from them) and better at sniping science vessels (8 range).  So that would suggest maybe a 2?  I'm not fully sure, though, cause you build hydras with the plan of landing plague, and hydras do shoot faster than goliaths so they are better at that role.  Guess I'll split the difference and say 1.

ZvP: 1?  I think you nearly always want hydras in this matchup, but the 8 range might be nice in some situations.  Sniping observers during a lurker contain, for example.

TvZ: 1.  They're excellent for beginners, but at ASL level play they're pretty niche.

TvT: 3.  They are the best anti-air that terran gets, and air becomes relevant because siege tanks shut down the ground, so nearly always get built.

TvP: 4?  Hard to know what to put here, cause without them protoss probably goes carrier every game.  But Goliaths are a very common unit in the matchup in longer games just overall even in games without carriers--hits shuttles, hits arbiters.  In that role they're probably a 3.  If we put a lot of weight on not auto losing to carriers, 4.

PvZ: 0?  Maybe this should be 1, but I really don't see a use for it in this matchup.  Closest I can think of is that it's an anti-air unit that builds out of a robo, which lets you do a mass reaver opening and be able to tech switch into not dying to mutas?  But my intuition says you should probably just go Corsairs anyway.

PvT: 1?  I think you would almost always build more dragoons instead, BUT this is a matchup where getting lots of robos is an actual thing you can reasonably do already, so maybe you'd make goliaths in a pinch.  They are also better against air, and I guess terran has being doing mass wraiths so ok, maybe.

PvP: 2.  With the range boost, pretty good at sniping shuttles.  They lose bad to dragoons, but sometimes you get these reaver shuttle standoffs, and I think one or two could contribute to those.

Total 16.

Hydra:

ZvZ: 0

ZvT: 2.  Could be argued higher as a counter to some early cheeses, but mostly they're a nice tech option with defilers these days.

ZvP: 4.  Basically the unit in the matchup.

TvZ: 0.  I think there are a few arguments for 1 instead of 0 here, but they don't really hold up.  Best argument is probably as something you would build against ultras, cause they deal full damage to ultras, but like...two marines do deal more damage to ultras provided they stim and are equal on upgrades.  Another argument would be busting sunkens, but...I actually don't think they are better than marines at that role, because while they do deal full damage to sunkens, they also take more damage from sunkens.

TvT: 3.  They'd be a barracks unit, so you probably wouldn't build them all game once a lot of upgrades kick in, but they are much, much better than marines, and you would build them for a while.  They're roughly even when fighting vultures, although slower and don't have mines, but they get built out of the otherwise garbage barracks.  They are also quite a bit better than vultures against goliaths, tanks, wraiths.  They might also be the best thing to drop out of dropships on top of tank lines--like maybe not after getting tons of upgrades, but early on for sure.

TvP: 4.  Vulture Hydra would just demolish anything that's not a reaver.

PvZ: 2.  You might just make hydras as a unit to go even with...hydras.  And just rely on high templar or reavers to actually win engagements.  Not positive about this one, but sounds like a nice option.

PvT: 0.  Dragoons are just better against terran units I think.  Except when dropped out of shuttles on top of siege tanks, but Zealots are better at that.

PvP: 2.  They're a lot worse against reavers.  But there's probably some nice rushes you can do that hit before reavers--protoss are pretty scared of hydras earlygame.

Total: 17

Hm, yeah, Goliaths same tier as Hydras seems pretty reasonable.  I guess other question is does hydra move up, or Gol move down?  Let's compare to medic+marine I guess?

Medic+Marine

ZvZ: 2. Assuming marines build off of the spawning pool and don't require additional tech, it's not bad.  Can build one marine for 50 minerals to deny scouting/hunt overlords.  Can build one marine as part of a ling allin to break past ling walls.

ZvT: 2.  Plague+marines is better than plague+hydras.

ZvP: 1.  Generally worse than hydras, but comes out earlier and deal more damage for the cost, and that might matter in a few situations.

TvZ: 3.  You can go mech, but it is pretty weird to do so.

TvT: 1.  They are pretty bad in this matchup.  Used a little bit early on cause only unit, but you switch off of them as soon as you can.  I have a policy of not giving too much credit for "only unit you can build", so continuing that here.

TvP: 1.  Like TvT, bad tech you switch off of right away.

PvZ: 3.  Uhh, yeah, I think you would just go Medic+marine with Corsairs to force zerg into hydras and they are very sad.

PvT: 0.  Yeah, just make a zealot instead

PvP: 0.  Also just make a zealot instead.

Total: 13

Okay, Hydra up to B tier then.

I think while I am here I will also move Lurker up to C tier, as I assume that is happening, though I should do the comparisons later.

(S tier?)
Zergling, Siege Tank, Mutalisk

(gap)

(A tier?)
Zealot, Vulture, Reaver, Dragoon

(gap)

(B tier?)
Scourge, Corsair, Goliath, Overlord, Hydra
Science Vessel, Defiler, High Templar, Shuttle (maybe on the low end of tier)

(gap)

(C tier?)
Medic+Marine, Carrier, Arbiter, Probe, SCV, Lurker

(gap)

(D tier?)
Dark Templar, Observer, Dropship, Wraith, Dark Archon

(gap)

(E tier?)
Battlecruiser, Valkyrie, Archon, Ultralisk, Queen, Drone

(gap)

(F tier?)
Guardian, Firebat

(gap)

(G tier?)
Devourer, Scout, Ghost

[SnowFire]

The games on Seventy-Six with tiny ramps which encourage weird stuff like Terrans building Wraiths vs. Protoss were cool.

Anyway, going back to the Firebats debate earlier, the casters mentioned - and this is super super SUPER niche - but there is one cool play Firebats are notably useful at if you have godlike pro APM: Zerg can sometimes stack Lurkers in the exact same spot when defending a ramp, because apparently a burrowed, Irradiated Lurker doesn't emit splash damage?  So basically you can do that and make it so that science vessels can't Irradiate all the lurkers quickly, they have to wait for them to die one at a time so they can click on the next one.  BUT some player had a Defensive Matrix'd, Stimmed Firebat run up the ramp instead and could clear all the stacked lurkers quickly.  That's cool, if weird and impractical for 99% of players!

Also, Best vs. Action in the round of 8 featured amazing DARK ARCHON action.  Check it out.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fiXDOyBSLGQ

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Anyway, going back to the Firebats debate earlier, the casters mentioned - and this is super super SUPER niche - but there is one cool play Firebats are notably useful at if you have godlike pro APM: Zerg can sometimes stack Lurkers in the exact same spot when defending a ramp, because apparently a burrowed, Irradiated Lurker doesn't emit splash damage?  So basically you can do that and make it so that science vessels can't Irradiate all the lurkers quickly, they have to wait for them to die one at a time so they can click on the next one.  BUT some player had a Defensive Matrix'd, Stimmed Firebat run up the ramp instead and could clear all the stacked lurkers quickly.  That's cool, if weird and impractical for 99% of players!

Yeah, I mean, firebats are just relevant specifically for Terran vs Zerg.  In Terran vs Zerg they're like...somewhere in the range of 5th to 7th best unit for Terran (depending how you value Valkyries and Wraiths).

I don't think other races would build them vs zerg.  (Maybe in very niche builds)

I don't think other races would build them against terran or protoss.  (Maybe in very niche builds)

Also, Best vs. Action in the round of 8 featured amazing DARK ARCHON action.  Check it out.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fiXDOyBSLGQ

Haven't seen that one yet--we've fallen behind on the round of 8 and are just catching up now.

We did just watch JYJ vs Soulkey

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pz3_i8XtflQ

And that in game 5 has 1 base 2 port Wraith where Soulkey defends by getting burrow and queens.  (Would have been better to get a hydra den, but JYJ mindgamed Soulkey by walling off with tech every game, and then doing builds that were not weak to hydras, so this was the one game where Soulkey didn't make hydras).

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So playing LFT again has me thinking about tiering the FFT jobs though a ban-a-thon.

Because the order of these can vary depending on what gets banned before them, it's more interesting to just start these over each time.

As a reminder these work as follows

* JP costs and unlock costs are assumed to be important factors (low-ish grinding, not using glitches)
* Fights are assumed to be hard enough--however that is accomplished (for the first few classes banned this assumption means something on the level of a solo challenge).
* You can be in banned jobs briefly to unlock later jobs that are not banned.  Just avoid getting an advantage out of going through banned jobs (like you might not jump while going through lancers).
* This is for specifically the PSX version.  Not really interested in rating WotL.

Anyway, #1 and #2 in ban-a-thons as always are going to be the things that people actually ban in normal playthroughs (stuff like Math Skill and Auto Potion, so Calculator and Chemist).

And specifically, on a solo challenge, math skill and auto potion usually need to be banned or heavily restricted.

The case for banning Chemist first is that I did actually do a solo run once where I had to ban Auto Potion but not Math Skill (since the rules of the challenge made actually learning math skill tricky enough that it didn't happen till mid chapter 4).

The case for banning math skill first is that, in a party of four people with goofy or restricted builds, say, one character with auto-potion doesn't necessarily break the game, but one character with math skill absolutely does.  Every character with auto potion does also break things (which is why it also has a case to be banned on solo challenges).

At the end of the day, I think there's just more scenarios where Auto-potion can be not in need of banning, than scenarios where math skill can be not in need of banning.

1. Calculator

2. Chemist

And now moving on to the classes that people don't really tend to get banned, and the first one of these is really easy.

3. Summoner

The PSX tuning of Shiva/Ramuh/Ifrit is obviously overtuned, remain good throughout the game.  The only real other ban option here is Wizard because that does stop the use of Magic Attack Up.  But you can just go Short Charge and its fine.

4.

Moving on to #4

So here's what I think builds look like with those three banned.  The mages pick up black magic, then train a magic job.  Time Mage for Short Charge Meteor is probably the best, but I don't think there's big gaps between these necessarily--you also want some white magic users for raise, the Oracle SCC can famously sail through Chapter 4 with no resets once it has all the JP it needs.  The physical builds suffer for a while, but eventually get good; carried early on by mages with black magic.

I think the common thread of all of this is Wizard.  There's maybe a case for banning Gained JP Up, but eh, you can coast for so long on black magic that you can piece together a real build in that time.  Wizard isn't even necessarily retaining a ton of lategame relevance (there's no summon magic to place on Wizard) but the earlygame boost, which lasts from Chapters 1-3 is plenty.

4. Wizard.

5.

So the 5th class to get banned

I think for a long time, a lot of characters will be slotting White Magic for raise and a lot of characters will be slotting Time Magic for haste.  There will be somewhat of a shift towards having some physical jobs in the party at this point, probably a mix of Monk/Ninja/Lancer/gun user (Mediator).  Hasting all of these is good.  Hasting mages who attack with staves and sticks is also good.  Raising Monks and Ninjas can be important--low HP melee units.  Gained JP Up is also very important for every build.

There's going to be a point in chapter 1 and early chapter 2 that is just kind-of rough, which might be an argument for banning squire (remove gained JP Up, make the rough period last longer).  But...even with a very slow JP progression I do think gear kind-of bails you out in chapter 2 (the cross helmet and gold armour from Agrias tossed onto perhaps a Lancer.  The gun from Mustadio tossed onto a Mediator).  So I don't think it's time to ban squire just yet.

Between Priest and Time Mage, and with a bit of a focus on Chapter 1 (cause things should get easier in chapter 2)...I think Haste might be a bit better than raise in Chapter 1 specifically.  Less MP--specifically mages tend to start with 18 or 19 MP, so that's two hastes or one raise.  Noticeable in chapter 1, not noticeable later, but chapter 1 is looking like the pain point.

While lategame is less of a concern here, I also think Time Mage might have more lategame stuff to offer.  Short Charge + Meteor is a bit better than Holy (although holy is available much sooner).  Teleport is excellent.  MP Switch from spillover can be great on a physical character, particularly if there's a Monk MP battery spamming Chakra for mages--MP Switch is great on such a monk.

5. Time Mage

6.

So...Ninja is traditionally considered a stronger character (once you get there).  Priest is the only good revival.  And playing without Gained JP Up makes all the builds suffer.

I think I lean towards Priest here.  Cutting Gained JP Up would hurt, but chapter 2 giving excellent armor for lancers as well as guns...you'd live.  Missing priest will also hurt early on (have relevant buffs very early; protect, shell.  Gets good offense for assassination missions very fast if you rush Holy).  But will also hurt for the whole game (no raise, very relevant with Phoenix Down already banned).

6. Priest

7.

I think now it pretty much has to be Squires.  Oracles are JP hungry.  Monks are JP hungry.  Lancers are JP hungry.  Ninjas suck while you're spending time in Thief but are good when you unlock them.  Unlike before with Haste and Raise there's no real core chapter 1 functionality you're missing out on.  Just hurts every build, and there's no obvious ban that makes you suffer more in Chapter 1.

7. Squire

8.

So ok, what do I think would hurt now?  Banning Ninja would certainly hurt.  Ninjas good on their own.  Ninjas are a good carrier for other classes.  And banning Lancer would hurt.  Lancers are effective faster than Ninjas--basically start of Chapter 2 when the good spear shows up and is higher WP than swords--even with no jumps learned, that character will melee jump and have tons of HP with gaffy/Agrias armour.  I normally associate unlocking Ninjas with about mid-Chapter 2, but might be closer to end of Chapter 2 without Gained JP Up.  And it's not like Lancer doesn't stay good, they will smash all of Chapters 2 and 3, and just need to switch to a job with hats in Chapter 4.  I...think I might be leaning Lancer, interestingly enough?

8. Lancer

9.

At this point, I think it realistically has to be Ninja.  Probably the best remaining end-goal in its own right, a strong carrier for several other classes (highest PA, highest Speed.  And not very dependent on skills from other classes that are candidates (happy to take Concentrate, Move+2, from classes that are definitely not candidates to be banned).

9. Ninja

10.

So I think this is between Monk and Oracle.  They both have fairly valuable long-term skillsets.  Life Drain is great for bosses, for example.  Silence Song wins some fights.  Revive is a revival skill, not a good one, but it is one.  Earth Slash can't miss and has long range, although does have some limitations (limited against enemies with earth clothes or who float, of which there are several).  They both also have relevant RSM.  Oracle has Defense Up, which is probably straight up the best support ability right now, and if you make a dedicated oracle (which is a good enough build) you can get Defense Up on your whole party via spillover.  Likewise, for Monk; Monk has a lot of good reaction abilities, HP Restore which could be given through spillover from a dedicated monk in the party, Hammedo which would require a bit more investment.  Monk is a lot better in Chapter 1, dealing 36 damage while oracle is dealing 18.  Oracle is probably better in chapter 2, dealing something like 63 with their physical.  Monks can get to 7 naked PA by reaching level 5, and buy power wrists relatively early in Chapter 2 to hit 8 PA--60 damage wave fists, so they can match that damage.  The thing that monks lack in Chapter 2 is durability, very low HP due to no hats, but that actually can be bypassed with equip armour, and equip armor no longer competes with Gained JP Up, so that's something.

Where else would you be going at this point?  Draw Out, which you would take to Oracle or maybe Geo.  Dancer which would...lead into probably Draw Out.  Potentially an attack up gun user, maybe with charge, but also said gun user probably sets Yin Yang for some fights.

To be clear, I think it's still down to Monk or Oracle.  Spillover Defence Up and spillover HP restore, as well as just being online much faster than classes like Dancer, Samurai, etc are the selling points here.

There's a logical part of my brain saying this should be Monk, cause it just allows for pretty good chapter 1 units, while still working towards something meaningful.

But man...I've recently been playing Monk in LFT, where there's innate gained JP Up, all the JP costs are much cheaper, several monk abilities have been buffed on top of having JP costs reduced, there's not nearly as many earth immune enemies, and equip armor got cost reduced to 300 (instead of 500 like in vanilla) and Monk still has felt a little slow on JP, and kinda underwhelming to be in due to not having a hat (never managed to afford 300 JP Equip Armor in that LFT run due to a pre-learned break skill in Knight).  I also am leaning towards valuing Defence Up higher than HP Restore.  Especially on a class that also brings life drain--the fights where Defence Up isn't superb tend to be trivialized by Life Drain.  But also Defense Up is 400 JP.  Easier to grant from spillover.

And a lot of builds seem interested in using some Oracle--Samurais often end up there.  Mediator's going to pass through there.  Even Monk with Yin Yang used to be a build that would get hyped up on GameFAQs board.  (And...sure, I'm thinking maybe you do learn Paralyze and set Yin Yang on a monk--your other options with the current bans aren't great).

10. Oracle

11...

For #11 now it's gotta be monk, right?  All the upsides to Monk remain--having equip armour as an option, having good Chapter 1 numbers, surely they now also bring the most damage for assassination missions right...?  Uh, no, wrong, actually.  Geomancer with Attack Up 12 PA and a Platinum Sword deals 192.  Same setup and martial arts deals 144.  Hitting Geomancer would also completely kneecap any Samurai build.

Although, hold up, before I put too much hype into Attack Up, Concentrate is a reasonable replacement for Attack Up, and Monk is offering a lot of stuff like some level of revival, range, good reaction abilities.  And just in general the only skillset you can start pursuing early (Neither Dance or Draw Out come out early).


11. Monk

12...

Think this next one does have to be Geomancer, though.  Already offered the most damage, and also banning Geomancer now just incidentally makes Samurai kind of homeless--no high MA job left to inherit Draw Out.

12. Geomancer

13...

What's left?  Samurai, Dancer, Thief, Archer, Mediator, Bard, Knight (and Mime, but we're not desperate enough to unlock those).

So...Knight has my attention.  Good in Chapter 1 comparatively.  Good RSM--Equip Shield looks solid.  Equip Sword on a class like Thief or Archer will be a good damage option when damage is needed.  Now probably the destination for prospective Samurai (higher MA mult than Mediator, can wear Rune Blade and Ageis Shield and Wizard Robe).  Knight Swords exist, and you will get a free Excalibur from Orlandu too.  Ice Healing might even be in the conversation (healing teammates with Ice Brand weapon attacks).

I'm looking at Mediator.  Guns good.  Equip Gun good.  And...in the event that playing with just these classes with no grinding is rough, Mediator offers some of the best grind payoff (Invite -> Poach.  Invite to get elemental guns.  Brave/Faith modifying).

I'm looking at Archer.  Charge is some damage.  Concentrate is nice.  Arrow guard pretty good, maybe not something you get from spillover alone, but something you might consider getting on a lot of characters.

Dancer, once unlocked, trivializes some fights, mostly non-boss fights, though.

If I'm considering the boss blits potential of Equip Sword thieves, I should also think about Two Hands...well...actually, hold on I'm doubting that a bit now.  900 JP on Samurai.  Only good thing to two hands are like...swords, so once again this brings us back to swords and Knights in some way.

I'm actually thinking that the Jenga piece that hurts the most here is Knight.  Make the playthrough hurt in chapter 1.  Make the playthrough suffer for damage options against zodiacs.

13. Knight

14...

With Knight gone, I'm immediately thinking Charge Guns.  So Archer and Mediator on the table.  It's hard to imagine it would be something like dancer--a team full of charging gunners with shields and arrow guard is going to be pretty good at the kind of fight Dancer tends to help with.  Probably need to break up the dream team of Archer+Mediator.

Archer would continue taking away chapter 1 toys (not that archer is amazing in Chapter 1, but they're not Thief), remove the one remaining source of being able to wear a shield, remove the pretty good Arrow Guard as an option.  And probably cause more damage problems in zodiac fights.

Mediator goes here if the game is getting hard enough to justify invite+poaching or inviting enemies who have elemental guns, or brave/faith modifying.

So like...what are we looking at if Mediator is banned instead of Archer?  Archer SCC with extras?  Where does the Archer SCC struggle anyway?  Not Balk, got shields and hats for that.  Maybe longer fights like Adramelk and Altima?  Yeah, getting even one support unit like a Bard/Samurai who can set up a speed differential and heal and restore Alma's MP probably lets a mostly Archer SCC have an easy time with those.

So...yeah, don't think we're quite at the level where Mediator shenanigans would be so strongly encouraged.

14. Archer

15...

Samurai, Dancer, Thief, Mediator, Bard.

yeah, ok, well, ok, this does now look like some grind is reasonable.  I think we're at the point where we do need to talk about Mediator shenanigans with invite.  Probably breaks the game a little faster than the other grind options.  Don't think we're in zero grind zero reset teritory, so reset to get a pig in chapter 2, chantages chapter 3.  Or even just something like a mediator SCC and just grab some elemental guns.

A lot of the game also just dies to guns (without even grabbing elemental guns).  There might be a no-grind path that just uses guns to deal with everything from Chapter 2 to most of the way through Chapter 4.  Grabs Equip Gun to get a few Sing/Dance moves to help with longer fights like Altima.  But obviously that's also very Mediator heavy.

Samurai's a thought, but I'm not convinced that's less grind.  Expensive to unlock.  Slow to get abilities after unlocking cause they cost so much JP.  And you do need that grind (like...Samurai SCC except a chapter or two further behind on JP, and less spillover cause you're probably not doing five samurais unless you really grind, That sounds...rough).  And if you do grind you get...Samurai SCC with move+2 (no real great multiclass, no better use for Two Hands than Katanas).

15. Mediator

And I think Samurai has to be next.  It's a grind, but I think we're in that teritory now if you want to avoid a lot of resets, and just a lot better rounded than Dancer if you do grind out the JP.  Best damage for assassination missions.  Easier to unlock.  Generally considered the easier SCC, and benefits a lot from Thief's Move+2.

Dancer is better against generics but if you grind out Blade Grasp and up to date draw outs, Samurai is also pretty good against generics.

Also literally the only class left that can wear robes, if you want like...Chameleon Robes for wiegraf, or white robes for some element heavy fights.

16. Samurai

Dancer's weird in this format.  Big fan of the class personally, but rarely did fights with bunches of generics late in the playthrough look as if they would be the problem fight.  Anyway, obviously they're next.

17. Dancer

I remember this dilemma, not really knowing which of Thief or Bard is supposed to be the harder SCC.  You do need to go through a bunch of dead classes to unlock Bard, though.  I will knee-jerk give it to thief, cause at least they have easy job unlock requirements (and can do things like grind out chantages if they really want to).

18. Thief

19. Bard

Last place is, of course, known.

20. Mime

[metroid composite]

So...interesting question: where did I go different from the last time I did this excercise.

Unchanged:

1. Calc
2. Chemist
3. Summoner
4. Wizard

---

5th-7th on the old list I made

5. Squire
6. Priest
7. Time Mage

New list

5. Time Mage
6. Priest
7. Squire

There's a shift in perspective here that I think Chapter 1 is certainly the pain point, but I don't think you are necessarily bailed out by having more JP, I think you are bailed out by Chapter 2 gear (and guests).  The very advanced gear on Agrias and Gafgarion (and guest appearances carrying a couple fights).  Guns.  Spears being just utterly cracked in Chapter 2.

In terms of Time Mage and Priest flipping, Time Mage is definitely more JP heavy and benefits more from Gained JP Up.  But also just...like...the MP difference between Haste and Raise being 8 to 10, which is normally pretty irrelevant, is kind-of relevant during the chapter 1 which I expect to be the hard chapter.

---

8th-9th on the old list:

8. Ninja
9. Lancer

8th-9th on the new list:

8. Lancer
9. Ninja

The reason for this change is similar to the reason for the other change.  Just a feeling that the hard parts of such a challenge would be early.  And Ninja needing to suffer through a lot of early thief and archer levels doesn't really address the issue.  Whereas Lancer still needs to suffer through some Thief levels, but addresses the issue at the start of Chapter 2.  And...honestly, it wouldn't surprise me if Lancer stayed better than Ninja for a while after Ninja was unlocked (if not it's close).

---

Surprisingly unchanged:

10. Oracle
11. Monk
12. Geomancer

(I really expected to find that I put Monk over Oracle last time, and was just biased by my recent exposure to Monk, but apparently not).

---

Next set of differences:

Old list:

13. Archer
14. Mediator
15. Knight

New List

13. Knight
14. Archer
15. Mediator

So...once you ban Archer, I do think Mediator probably falls immediately after (just deprive the playthrough of range physicals).  Which means I think the interesting choice here is 13th place--Knight vs Archer.

The argument in the old list was that Archers would get used quite a bit with only the bottom 8 classes available, and that's probably true, Archers would get used quite a bit.

The argument on the new list is that Knight plugs a lot of holes.  Banning Knight makes Chapter 1 suffering.  Equip Sword is probably at least part of the plan for some assassination fights like Velius and Roof of Riovanes...and honestly probably Equip Sword Thief over Equip Sword Archer (4 move, 4 jump often higher speed, shields don't matter as much in those fights).  Knight still offered some MA payoff for Samurai (Knight with Wizard Robe Rune Blade and Ageis shield).  Knight still offered Knight Swords--Excalibur.  Move+2 makes the woes of melee assassination builds a lot more manageable too.

I also vaguely remembered a somewhat tongue in cheek comment DarkHolyElf made a while back doing a playthrough with the bottom 8 classes or so--that there was a case for banning Knight before even Geomancer as Chapter 1 was the roughest part of the playthrough.

And there is a case that Dancer is kind-of playing spoiler here.  Archer is preferable against say, enemy knights and Archers.  Concentrate good, kiting good.  Speed matching to charge on enemies good.  But these kinds of fights can also often be trivialized by one dancer with Nameless Dance.

---

And then the bottom five were unchanged

16. Samurai
17. Dancer
(17. bonus Red Chocobos (from Boco) which I didn't rate this time)
18. Thief
19. Bard
20. Mime

[metroid composite]

So okay, here's an interesting question.

Should Knights be higher?

I just moved them from 15th to 13th

I've been referencing Dark Holy Elf's old playthrough, but I should actually go back and read and quote the notes because they are in this topic, and I am not sure if I've read them since 2011.

Knight is hardcore dominant early. Double the damage of Archer. Gap shrinks a little after you get Iron Swords + Longbows (although... the latter comes first) but Knight's durability is also quite useful. I was using Monk a lot because I wanted to unlock Geomancer... similar damage to Knight but way less HP. Generally I felt, especially for maps like Sand Rat Cellar, that I just couldn't afford to lose damage/HP.

My first goal was to get to Geomancer (shocking, I know); the one battle I had it for it made much easier. Really can't stress enough how useful having both ranged (ITE) chipping and an actual good damage option is (Charge makes it even better). Knight will probably still win chapter 1 in my eyes because you get it right away whereas Geo is actually a pain to unlock in the world without Gained JP Up, but there's no question Geomancer is better once you have it. Archer quietly chips in Charge+1 or +2, but is not a happy place to be for the most part if you're male (damage compared to knight is... 15 vs. 30 after Igros, 20 vs. 36 after Sand Rats; unacceptable) but this should close a bit in the last two maps due to Silver Bows plus them possibly starting to hit that PA point.

Possible mistake: I should perhaps have made my girls archers as soon as Longbows showed up (20 damage instead of 24-28 isn't so bad when you have range) but since they were already partly done Monk I figured I'd tough it out because Monk isn't getting any more pleasant to be in any time soon, whereas Archer is getting more appealing with better bows (and the Headgear in Chapter 2). However, it's possible them being in Archer could have saved me a reset.

The other five classes don't exist in Chapter 1 as far as I'm concerned. There's a slim argument to be in Thief if you're female but it's clearly the worst place to be; I'd probably rather put time in there when the game gets a bit easier due to options showing up.

Compared to chapter 1, chapter 2 just basically got curbstomped. I only had two resets and both were extremely avoidable/the result of stupid mistakes on my part (although I won't claim my Execution Site team could have won 100% of the time, needed some luck with either getting through shields OR landing status with elemental... just not much. Also, luck would have been greatly reduced if I wasn't trying to keep moving forward with JP and using, e.g. a Lancer and an Archer).

Some notes:
-I've thus far been ignoring propositions, although Goug/Warjilis does exist for 'em. This is possibly a bit unfair, I dunno.
-I finished chapter 2 with dancer not yet unlocked. The girls have been basically doing nothing but working on Dancer prereqs, though of course they sit out about 1 in every 4 battles on average and of course sometimes I have to sacrifice their choice of class for the "must win this fight now" attitude (e.g. extra time in knight).
-Chapter 2 was, somewhat predictably, the Geomancer hype show. It's not a significant exaggeration to say that the optimum way to play this chapter is as a Geomancer SCC with Charge+1/2. Much of this is Elemental being very solid in this chapter (as you've hyped) but a good deal of it is also Attack Up and how good Geo is as a carrier right now (everything else does less with Elemental and deals less damage at melee, and... generally has less durability, and less move).
-Yeah the portion of the game before you get Move+2 practically is more than 25%. I'm just starting to pick it up now. No, it is NOT worth beelining too because you want to get Elemental first (5 range is good times) and a good support skill is also pretty important. I think we're both too used to assuming a metagame where Gained JP Up exists; everything is harder to unlock/get now.
-On the melee/range thing: I do use Elemental more than physicals, but on the other hand, the physicals do play a crucial role sometimes. There's little doubt that a Geomancer with elemental far outperforms an archer or gunner, for instance (and the archers also set and get reasonable use out of Elemental, it must be noted)
-But even when it's not doing damage, Elemental deserves some note for "makes any class more tolerable to just plain get JP in". Most of chapter 2 is easy so you can afford people in sub-optimal classes; the problem is that thief will be locked to melee or the "slows your JP gain rate by 40-50%" Steal Heart (and just getting that is a multi-battle delay to Move+2). However, it's not SO easy you can afford to waste many turns attacking each other, so Elemental gives you something that is always useful to do (even with loltastic MA, it's still 25% stop, sometimes GT). Hell Ivy is the only terrain I picked up until I started getting superfluous Geomancer JP, incidentally (then I started getting Kamaitachi or Carve Model on some people).
-Attack Up is winning out over Concentrate in a pretty big way. Part of this is that, with a few exceptions, enemy evade is fairly low, of course. But the bigger part is just accessability. Yes, yes, they both cost 400 JP... but Geomancer is just so much more pleasant to actually be in, and Charge creeps in as competition for that Archer JP (this second point of course does not discredit archer).

Only two battles had resets on them:
Golgorand: I had one because I forgot how to avoid the knights and got blitzed pretty fast by them. Second try I mostly just kited them.
Lionel Gate: Had a bit of a brain fart and forget that Gafgarion's Night Sword would, uh, heal him. Second try I just stuck Ramza in Geomancer so he'd reach the gate turn 2 and it wouldn't even matter. I'd still have won the first try if I hadn't missed something like half a dozen attempts to stop Gaf, or if my party had been five Geos instead of uh Archer/Archer/Thief/Lancer/Lancer (why yes, Rubber Shoes made me disrespect the fight). And really, that's sort of the story of chapter 2; its challenge (even the execution site's) is negated if you play it as a Geomancer SCC plus a little help, the only reason to really consider other classes is for later-in-the-game preparation.

Chapter 1:
1. Knight (PA, HP, swords)
2. Geomancer (Knight remix plus Elemental is a winning trade, but a bit too late for the top spot)
3. Archer (Charge. Bows are kinda okay after the halfway point, outright good for Zeakden)
4. Thief (... at least it exists)
5-8. Classes which are either impossible to unlock without grinding or massively suboptimal to unlock due to dead class traversing plus chapter 1 being hard.

Chapter 2:
1. Geomancer (Elemental, Attack Up, clearly the best carrier overall due to HP/PA/MA/move/equips)
2. Archer (Charge, possibly Concentrate. Bows are kinda serviceable)
3. Mediator (while I didn't personally unlock them until the end, you could, and Romanda Guns are nice, though pretty reliant on at least one ability from the above two since 36 is outperformed by Elemental)
4. Thief (provides Move+2. A bit of a JP sink and an awful carrier, though)
5. Knight (might look better if you banned Geomancer, but as is, a grossly inferior option. Entire skillset has been devoid of value so far, and they're no longer a good carrier)
6. Dancer (two chapters of inferior stats and don't really exist in Chapter 2 unless you grind)
7-8. Classes which are completely unreasonable to access in the current metagame at this point.

Chapter 1 finished at Level 5-6, Chapter 2 at 11-12, for the record. Current build plans involve Ramza picking up Charge but also having Invite (possibly switching over to gunner duty later, or alternating between that/Geo as needed), the male Geos focusing on Geomancer/Charge/Move+2 beatdowns, and the girls very close to getting Dancer (once they have that and the three key dances, they'll probably work on Mediator too).

No Mimic Daravon yet. Steal Heart... I learned with one person and... never used. That hit rate!

Elemental sees uses on Archer because (a) sometimes the MT is worth it, (b) sometimes more range, (c) sometimes ITE is worth it when you know the rest of your damage kills anyway. Overall it isn't exactly pinning ears back, no, but it's still a decent addition to the toolbox.

Knight JP I'm really not sure about. I'm sorta sitting on it in hopes that one of the Equip X abilities will be useful, or maybe I'll feel a certain Battle Skill could turn a fight down the line. I could buy Weapon Guard (it's not terribly crowded out yet because archer/geo want to spend JP on other things), and it's possible that at the end of the day, having +5% evade on most of my units may end up a better payoff than the Equip abilities, but for now I'm not ready to take that chance.

Zigolis Swamp random enemy was a Flotiball. I didn't have Mediator unlocked at that point anyway, though. (One reasonably could, certainly, if the invite lottery or resetting there was a high priority.)

*checks Drain Touch* 60+MA. Revenant MA is roughly 4.81+0.69*Level, so... 78.6% to 92.4% hit rate at levels 20-40, say (this can swing a bit with random MA of course)? Good zodiac can make that really shine I guess, for some boss-killing. You'll probably want to do a little breeding regardless, but it is quite an interesting boss-kill tactic if needed. I kinda doubt we're at the point where it feels worth it, though... and sadly, we may not hit it until Mediator is banned. A shame.

Chapter 3 finished. Stompstompstomp I thought this was supposed to be a challenge. Chapter finished at Level 20-21 (though the last two fight were of course too short to really change this... notably, I generally hit 18 around Grog Hill).

One reset to report, against ZALMO. Same reason as Lionel Gate, I had an absolutely horrid team due to trying to milk the battle for skills (Archers/Thief/Lancers). The Archers were supposed to be the kinda competent units but I totally forgot Zalmo has ARROW GUARD, lolspoiled. But yeah with an even slightly competent party (Geomancers, people with Mithril Guns, Dancers...) this would go down hard.

I tried to invite the Goland chemists, but due to bad luck I wasn't able to (first one had to die because he was a threat to Olan, the second was just an unfortunate critical hit killing him). This was kinda fluky, normally you'd be able to easily snag at least one gun here. I ended up making the Goug trip to buy 'em so that I wouldn't be disadvantaged by this. I reset a little to avoid some (but not all) fights. This was also the point I finally got Dancer (one of the girls got there from the Zalmo fight, the other right after). I only bought one because they cost a lot.

Izlude was minorly worrying because my archers missed four times in a row to start the battle (yes, yes, Concentrate hype!) and my gunner died fast but eventually I landed the hits I needed, combined with Dance, to not completely die.

In both the big Riovanes fights I made some pretty big errors but not enough, I just had too much firepower. I lured Velius to the wrong place so one of my Geos couldn't hit him, but when the other two did just shy of 700 damage between them (ps one of them was a girl) and Ramza does well over 200 before Velius' first turn it hardly matters. Did the fight with gunner Ramza, one other Mediator, and three Geos for the record.

Roof, I just didn't realise that the assassins could only be hit by one melee attack from each side before they moved. Didn't matter due to my two speed 9'ers and two naked PCs.

All other fights generally scanned as complete jokes, beyond Olan who can be frustratingly difficult to save (bows/guns both have serious problems reaching the top of the roof, didn't buy Blizzard) if he decides to be stupid. Yardow could have been okay except that by late Chapter 3 I was mostly done with my class monkeying and was actually in generally good setups (one archer was the main weak point and even it's okay there).

I could afford two Bracers, for the record. That, three Platinum Swords, five Power Sleeves, four Twist Headbands, two Sprint Shoes, a Chameleon Robe, and the aforementioned Mithril Gun were the major purchases of the chapter, though I also snagged a few extra swords/bows/Judo Outfits/Flame Shields. No propositions yet, still. At this point I'm going to stick to this; we can quibble with its effects later.

I started picking up Move+2 late chapter 2; by mid Orbonne, everyone except gunner Ramza had it. Reaction abilities are only finally starting to trickle in, mainly in the form of Counter Flood just for ease of getting; everything else either has a negligible effect or doesn't feel worth the time spent in an inferior class. My Dancers may end up with Arrow Guard since Archer/Geo are comparably good carriers for them; we'll see. Towards the end of the chapter I could finally start to pick up Concentrate, although it remains to be seen if it really justifies the time spent in an inferior class.

I don't really have anything good to say about Talk Skill. Faith monkeying has some uses I guess, we'll see if I ever care about mages enough for this to score points (for now, I'm not doing it), Mimic Daravon I basically only use when there's an obstacle in my way because it misses so often and I have crazy damage to lay into everything between AU/Charge/Swords and all that PA-boosting/Guns. Maybe it'd find a little more use without Dancer. Certainly I would if we got rid of our best methods of damage, but... not sure this will happen until both Geo and Archer are banned. As is, it gets the Steal Heart treatment (though I did finally use Steal Heart with my useless Thief in the Zalmo fight! Better idea: don't use Thief, and don't buy abilities that make you spend more time in Thief.)

Oh, and a serious "lol" at brave/faith raising is needed at this point. Bad internal compatibility is pretty clearly the way to go even if you decide to optimise zodiac at all (I don't anticipate ice healing to be very useful, but there have certainly been times when I wanted to take less from destatusing myself) and it makes the already terrible hit rates of Praise/Preach even worse. Not to mention there's so little reason to raise either (reactions are just... not a priority or impressive). If I'm wrong about how chapter 4 plays out I'll rescind these comments, but at this point I don't expect I will be.

Chapter 1 still by far the hardest part of the game! BAN KNIGHT? (Well, if there's any debate about Knight vs. Bard later on...)

Opinion of classes in chapter 3...

1. Geomancer (high-end carrier for basically everything, Attack Up still great even with competition in some fights, Elemental's niche compromised now but still the best skillset for a melee male)
2. Dancer (yeah, the mook smash is good, although chapter 3 is kinda boss-heavy which holds them in check a bit)
3. Archer (Charge is a preferred skillset unless you have Dance. Concentrate/Arrow Guard get it some very minor points)
4. Mediator (who cares about Talk Skill with this offence? Main use of the skillset is snagging a few guns. Of course, guns themselves are very solid, but very reliant on Geomancer/Archer and need an extra hoop or two to get, and gunners either have lower move/durability/bad primary OR give up the AU possibility)
*drop*
5. Thief (Move+2 and a big pile of garbage)
6. Knight (Light equips take off in this chapter, Battle Skill still sucks)
7. Bard (hahaha I guess you could open it by now but WHY)
8. Mime (is Mime)

The main remaining question I have for how to play chapter 4 is... do I even look at Bard? Maybe with Ramza? I don't see much reason for my males to bother with that side of the tree. If Thief were banned, the effort spent would easily be worth it, but as is... while I would like +1 move for my melee powerhouses, I probably can't justify it.

Really can't imagine anything shaking Geomancer's hold on #1 at this point, though. It has very clearly won to this point and the only way its competition can pass it is if chapter 4 is much harder than I expect (which might justify things like monster taming, elemental guns, or faith modification).
Modify message

And chapter 4 beaten!

Jokerun - Is the jokerun. Snagged a Uribo. Ended up breeding a Porky by Limberry, which I imagine is very lucky? Didn't bother with Chantage though.

Balk 1 - So I decided to do this with five Ice Shields. Then I realised "hey I have ice brands, time to remove Counter Flood from everyone". So I do so. Unfortunately, what I don't notice is that, in Ramza's case, instead of removing Counter Flood, I removed Equip Shield. So the entire battle falls to pieces. Shockingly I still win pretty easily, offence!

South Wall - Not sure this was the right choice. Being blitzed is a little scary here. I pull it out though it would have gone better if everyone had Arrow Guard certainly (just... ugh to getting 450 -more- Archer JP, and there aren't many battles late enough that it feels significantly useful).

Sluice - Site of the one and only use of ice healing in this playthrough as I use it to ensure my Geo on the left survives a spell before one-shotting Shale/the head wizard back. I could have set up for this better like with White Robes/Reflect Rings on the left side probably but oh well.

Everything up to Elmdor - lol

Elmdor - I get one shot through Blade Grasp which really turns the tide. Otherwise I do badly at my abusing of this battle (fail to bait a Blood Suck, which results in only one Ultima to be redirected) but yeah, a little luck sees me through. Coulda been a reset.

Zalera - Super horrid luck on this one, Nightmare keeps causing sleep. I -should- have just Kamaitachi'd it away right away probably, since my team was set up for the fight excellently otherwise and I could afford the hit. As is I didn't do it until a desperation move late in the fight and ended up winning this on the very last clocktick.

Adramelk (1 reset) - I misjudge my offence against Dyce here (a fair bit of my team is bad zodiac with him, hadn't noticed) so my timed blitz of him falls short and he finishes someone off. I come a few clockticks short of outracing the crystallisation. Without this error I don't lose, second try was pretty easy.

Everything else until Altima - lol. I get a Tiamat from Balk (Flame Shield/Rubber Shoes/Thief Hat makes the fight easy). End up not using it, but could have; it would have torn Altima apart with the 999 damage off 550 HP and all. Rofel gets his weapon snapped, only other notable thing. I'd have won anyway but it was necessary for a one-rounding, I think?

Altima (1 reset) - I lose once because I try to keep Alma alive. This ends up killing Ramza. Second try I don't do anything so stupid. Sweep demons, break her speed, murder.

Thoughts on various things in chapter 4...

Knight - Excalibur is interesting. An excalibur knight is faster and more durable, but less mobile and generally less damaging (especially if he keeps Elemental over Charge) than Geo. That alone is kind of a push, but a few small things push the knight into the "worth using" category; the fact that he saves you a bunch of money (free Excalibur/crystal gear), the versatility of trading durability for power without being fragile, and Battle Skill being (gasp) actually useful against Zalera, Rofel, and Altima. Weapon Guard is also actually worthwhile for the Excalibur user. It's... still probably the least valuable of the six "real" classes in chapter 4, though.

Archer - Concentrate loses pretty decisively to Attack Up overall (analysis forthcoming) but it's still nice to have, Arrow Guard is pretty cool if you can stomach its cost, and a few charges help (nobody had more than 3 for me) and round out a good skillset for most. Not much else changed here; I kinda regretted not having bows against Rofel and Altima a bit maybe? But not much.

Thief - They have Move+2. Otherwise you run screaming. Still, it was nice to have +2 move without trekking over to Bard, so while it certainly isn't in the running for most overcentralising class, it does have a nice grip on one of the five slots (carrier, secondary, R, S, M).

Mediator - Guns definitely decline in value as the chapter goes on (nice for battle skill, pity my battle skiller didn't have Mediator unlocked! But that's only ~3 battles as mentioned). Tiamat is a pretty good "I win" trick against Altima, though. Persuade's a much weaker one, though it's there. (By the way, Revenants? Not so much, 160 HP just dies there, and no Angel Ring.) They're mostly about a host of minor tricks; my general feeling that they could just as easily be ignored at no major cost stands; puts you in a bit of danger against Wiegraf though.

Geomancer - They could honestly just coast on Attack Up being brutally important, but their 6 move + high power is pretty much the best way to just cut through most battles in C4 anyway (knight does end up providing competition, yes, but it's only competition, and only for one slot). Everyone except Ramza hit L8 in this, nobody hit it in any other job, as a note.

Dancer - Dance remains pretty cool, declining only slightly from chapter 3. Bad when you go into blitz mode, though, and of course the worst thing about it remains forcing females. Still, it's probably optimum to have one or two. The skillset also lets them gain JP anywhere really easily, always a plus, although all the time spent unlocking it instead of other things makes this less of one.

Bard - I can't say I really regret not unlocking it. As I keep coming back to, it would look much better if Thief were banned, and its main role is to stop Thief from overcentralising the movement slot utterly (i.e. I'm pretty sure if I carried these analyses to the end that thief would end up #18, since in the final four Kn/Th/Ba/Mi showdown, knight gets to rest on its laurels as workhorse while cheerfully settling for whichever of Move+2 and Move+3 ends up as unbanned)

Mime - AHAHAHAHA. Man I'm pretty sure I didn't get the 6300 JP needed for this the entire game!


On Attack Up vs. Concentrate:

Going through chapter 4 on my attack geos (so ignoring gunners and dancers), I tended to use either AU, Concentrate, or a mix. Generally speaking, looking back, you want Concentrate for people with shields or generics who are high-enough levelled to use mantles reliably, and AU for everyone else (as well as evasive-types who can be baited into charging). When a boss is present, the strategy which defeats the boss is of course optimum (you -may- take out randoms more optimally with something else, but the gap is usually negligible by comparison if you even bother, and plus you may be neutralising them with Dance anyway). Here's what this ends up looking like:

Doguola Pass: Mix
Meliadoul: Concentrate
Finath: AU
Zalmo: Mix
Balk 1: AU
Walls: ... mm, I'm still unsure which wall you should take, -and- what you should go for here... probably north and a mix?
Sluice: Mix
Germinas/Poeskas/Limberry Gate: AU
Elmdor: Unsure. Optimally you don't care.
Zalera/Adramelk: AU
Outside Murond: Mix
SK Trio: Doesn't matter (Kletian dies either way)
Zalbag/UBS4: Concentrate [EDIT: missed Zalbag]
Rofel: AU
Kletian: Dies either way (though if you got Elemental haxed or something, AU would win?)
Balk, Hash, Altima: AU (Balk has a mantle, yes, but he's not the threat; controlling the monsters is).

Ignoring Elmdor and Kletian, and calling the "mixes" half a point each, the score is 13.5 versus 5.5, before guns are in the mix. It's also worth noting that AU acquits itself much better in a hypthetical "ban archer" scenario since it pretty much always does -something-, while Concentrate just sits there useless (or near-useless) in any fight against charging enemies, monsters, pre-L40 archers, or others who lack evade.

Think that's it for now! Playthrough was pretty fun, final level going into the last battle was 34-35 or so. (Well one dancer reached 39 in the Altima fight, but... dance against L66 target.) Definitely not overall hard with the possible exception of chapter 1; most of my resets could be avoided.

So...some of what I was remembering was a somewhat tongue in cheek one-liner

Chapter 1 still by far the hardest part of the game! BAN KNIGHT? (Well, if there's any debate about Knight vs. Bard later on...)

But by and large this whole post is reaffirming that Geomancer above Knight is just correct.  Elfboy hyping Geomancer as better than Knight including in Chapter 1 once they are unlocked (despite knights having a gear advantage) just because Elemental and 4 move is nice to have.  Elfboy hyping Elemental as the best secondary even on unexpected classes like archers for AoE, ITE, status potential.

I think there is some world where if Geomancer is higher, maybe Knight gets banned right after geomancer as "lesser geomancer".

Like...if Geomancer was rank 11, and rank 12 was a decision between Knight and Monk, there is a case that banning Knight kneecaps you in Chapter 1, and also takes away the Equip Armor option for Monks in Chapter 2, making Monks pretty undesirable in Chapter 2 too.  Knights do play a bit of a "lesser Lancer" role early in Chapter 2, where like...if you want to use Agrias and Gafgarion's armour, Knight is the way to do it.

---

Well, let's pursue this maybe.

Could Geos be picked over Oracles at the #10 spot?  I think no.  Geos kill bosses.  Life Drain kills bosses better.

Could Geos be picked over Monks at the #11 spot?

Reading over Dark Holy Elf's writeup, I am fairly convinced that a typical Geo will outperform a Monk in both chapters 1 and 2.  In chapter 1 because Monks will have trash for skills anyway and one elemental is probably a fair comparison for like Wave Fist.  In Chapter 2 cause Wizard Robes make Elemental pretty monstrous, and monks are hurting for gear in this chapter, and still hurting for JP. Geos are probably a little worse in Chapters 3/4 generally but will also deal more melee damage for must kill blitz fights like Velius.  I was also giving Monk a lot of credit for HP Restore when I rated them over Geos, but yeah, Counter Flood, it's good, worth thinking about too.

OK, sure, I'm willing to try out Geo over Monk.

11. Geomancer

Hm, well, ok, so for #12, am I really seriously considering this?  Knight above Monk?

I do think it's gotta be one of Knight or Monk.  It's not like...Archer or Mediator.  Knight in Chapter 1 until Equip Armor, and then camp in Monk forever other than maybe grabbing Move+2 is probably just like...never a too weak character at any point.

Monk obviously provides more in the long term.  Knight can't even make a claim to damage--Equip Sword and Martial Arts will be about the same.  And obviously monk has a good skillset, good reaction.  Monk doesn't really need anything like Equip Shield for Balk, can just swap to Archer.  In a Monk vs Knight comparison, Knight like...ceases to have any good arguments in Chapter 3.

The argument for Knight is a stronger Chapter 1, maybe you might do something with Agrias/Gaffy's armour in Chapter 2, but...nothing sounds all that appealing (if you're just in Knight, you're not gaining relevant long-term JP.  If you got Equip Armor on a non-Monk, that just seems like a waste, you will 100% be dumping it later).

Meanwhile, while Monk has a sketchy chapter 2 due to lack of PA boosting gear and a lack of hats, it's also not a nothing chapter for them--they will have some skillset at this point.  Knight won't contribute much of anything on that front.

I do think Monk cleanly has a better Chapter 3/4, which is more than half the game.  And Monk even without Knight should have a doable Chapter 1.  Maybe tied Chapter 2.

So ok, Knight still wouldn't move, it would just be

11. Geomancer

12. Monk

---

Other thing I'm thinking about reading through Dark Holy Elf's old notes and how a lot of the challenge is early and how JP rolls in very slow, is...do I maybe still have Ninja too high?

Ninja has value for assassination missions, but Oracle has...arguably more value for less investment, at least against zodiacs.  And Defense Up is still very cool for your non-zodiac fights.  Yeah, I think I'm sold on Oracle over Ninja.

9. Oracle

With a different 9th ban, we should re-examine ban #10.

Is there a world where Ninja is below Geomancer as well?  Ehh.  Geos are solid in chapter 1, maybe even the best class for a few fights according to Dark Holy Elf, but not really required to get through chapter 1.  Geos maybe carry Chapter 2.  Especially with Oracle and Lancer gone, decent case Geos are the best thing to pull a weak party through Chapter 2.  And then Chapter 3 you should have Ninja unlocked, at least on some characters, and would almost always rather be a Ninja than a Geo.  Unless you specifically want a robe.  (Wanting a Shield probably not enough to get much of an edge.  Unarmed Equip Shield Ninja can still punch twice thanks to a funny glitch).

Is there a world where both Ninja and Geo occupy enough of the same space (melee character with a ranged poke) that banning neither one does enough and Monk starts looking better?  Hmm....  Weirdly almost feel like Geo is the one that stands out (for having a good Chapter 2).  Both Monk and Ninja suffering in Chapter 2 and getting payoff in Chapter 3.

I think despite bringing less in Chapter 3/4, I kind-of am seeing the argument for Geomancer over Ninja.  Is it such a big deal if your high investment character that will limp through Chapter 2 is a Monk instead of Thief/Archer heading to Ninja?  Eh, not really.  Chapter 3+ should be easy regardless.  Whereas knocking out the last good Chapter 2 class seems like it might matter more for challenge.

(And not like Geo is irrelevant in Chapter 3+.  Attack Up still good.  Shields still good.  Counter Flood is respectable.  High MA class for any prospective Samurai.  Lower impact than Ninja, but not irrelevant).

10. Geomancer

Does Ninja keep moving down?  I think it does, cause like if Chapter 2 is a weak point, and I suspect it probably is with Geo out, Equip Armor Monk sounds like one of the few sensible remaining ways to somewhat mitigate that, while also having an actual excuse to run male knights in Chapter 1 to enable the builds that are weak at that point.  Ninjas obviously bring a lot to Chapter 3+, better assassination missions, but Monks are also delivering plenty to Chapter 3+, like a skillset, reaction abilities, and acceptable damage once power sleeve and bracer show up.  Not Ninja level damage, but acceptable.

Although...if I'm hyping up equip armour monks in Chapter 2, was I wrong to put Geo in the 10th spot above?  Ehh...Equip Armor Monks won't be Geo level in chapter 2 or anything, they'll spend all of Chapter 1 getting 500 JP for Equip Armour, and then in Chapter 2 it's a bit like having a Knight in the party since they don't have much Monk JP yet.  You're probably just punching and wave fisting for most of the chapter.  Having a "pseudo Knight" in Chapter 2 is a lot worse than having an Attack Up Geo with Wizard Robe+Elemental, even with Agrias and Gaffy's gear.  Just...Monk JP actually builds towards relevant stuff, and Knight JP does not.  That's really most of what Equip Armor does here, let you run a Chapter 2 Knight that is not a JP dead-end.

But yes, having a sensible not JP dump build that is basically a Chapter 2 Knight is still going to help out quite a bit, when the other options are like Chapter 2 Archers and Thieves.  Banning Monk here hurts early (in Chapter 2, and also Chapter 1 since you can justify spending more Knight time in the chapter) and also late (losing Punch Art is a notable loss).  Banning Ninja just hurts late.

11. Monk

Does Ninja continue to move down?

Mmm...what even are the classes now?

Ninja, Knight, Archer, Mediator, Thief, Samurai, Dancer, Bard.

Yeah, Knight will have a good Chapter 1, but you can manage with Archers.  None of these will have a great Chapter 2.

And then Ninja contributes a lot to Chapter 3 onwards.

In Chapter 3+ Knight and Archer can both claim to be contributing to damage to kill bosses like Velius through Equip Sword and Charge, but Ninja is contributing way more than either Knight or Archer here.

I think it's got to be Ninja.  They are now the obvious Chapter 3/4 option.  I'm not feeling like Chapter 3/4 are going to be trivial with these other 7 classes.  There are obviously still other builds with lategame payoff like Dancer, Samurai, but none really in the same space as Ninja anymore.

12. Ninja


So...ok, after all that adjustment, mostly moving Ninja down four spots, but also swapping Monk and Geo, list now looks like

1. Calculator
2. Chemist
3. Summoner
4. Wizard
5. Time Mage
6. Priest
7. Squire
8. Lancer
9. Oracle
10. Geomancer
11. Monk
12. Ninja
13. Knight
14. Archer
15. Mediator
16. Samurai
17. Dancer
18. Thief
19. Bard
20. Mime

[metroid composite]

If I was to do an LFT ban-a-thon what would it look like?

Obviously this is going to be a lot more fuzzy, cause on paper it's all very balanced.

That said

1. Knight.

It is amazing how many fights you might be losing and then you bring a Knight and they just draw all the fire and you win.

Probably after that the thing to target would be revival (and to some degree healing), just due to the nature of bans--taking away the thing that very few classes can reproduce will hurt more.  Additionally LFT has generally slower and longer fights than FFT because of lots of enemies with defence up and magic defence up and more elemental resistances, and you need to ban relatively few classes to basically shut off revival.

2. Chemist

3. Priest

4. Squire

5. Monk

Banned basically in the order of how good their revival is.  Maybe Squire and Monk could be swapped (Reinforce is Laggy stamped as better revival than Monk revival, but Monk offers enough other stuff like HP Restore and Chakra MP batteries to maybe justify Monk ahead of Squire).

After that probably something like...

6. Wizard

7. Summon

8. Time Mage

Chapter 1 without wizards kinda rough, specifically without their best spell: poison.

Summon is obviously heavily nerfed, but still often stands out as a go-to if you want to carry a bunch of weak teammates through a fight.  Not many other ways to get that level of AoE, can still one-shot in the right circumstance, 100% hitrate, etc.

Hitting Time Mage just does a bunch of little things.  Haste good, so getting rid of it is noticeable.  Short Charge Meteor is a relevant ban with Summon now banned.  And it also just hits Calculator really hard (Haste, Slow, and Don't Move are probably the top 3 mathskills legal in LFT, but also with Priest and Wizard already banned it's now down to just Oracle as calculable magic).  Teleport is also kind of known to be quite strong for its current JP level, we just wanted to encourage people to get it cause it is highly strategic.  MP Switch is also quite good.

9. Lancer?

I kind of was thinking Archer here, cause I see a lot of good charge builds in LFT, ranging from charge harps, to charge guns, to charge books.  But...Lancer is probably still a significantly better version of that kind of thing, even if it's less "spicy".

10. Archer

Legit do think Archers are probably next though.

11. Mime

Lower than I expected, given that I tend to think of them as overtuned in LFT, but a lot of the abilities before this I was thinking "yeah, but that's the thing they would be miming anyway", Charge and haste in particular.

12. Oracle

Just seems like a hit that makes Chapter 1 kinda miserable, enjoy dealing with Knights without the best remaining status user.  Also shuts off what remains of Calculator.  Also removes the option of Life Drain on zodiacs.

13. Mediator

Death Sentence and Mimic Daravon are some of the remaining ways to deal with Knights early on, so taking those away should really torpedo chapter 1.  Also guns and mediator stuff generally.

14. Geomancer

The last high MA job, so banning it now makes Samurai look miserable.  The last source of shields.  Removes attack up, so no attack up gun stuff.  And just a really really high stat job (substantially buffed from vanilla; three 120 multipliers in HP, PA, and MA.  Some Elementals deal more damage now too).

15. Thief

Innate two weapons.  Poaching and stealing, which both feel more relevant in LFT (more things to steal, no more common/rare poach split).  Quick Attack with Harps is also a combo where splitting it up feels relevant.  Not like...Charge level good, cause it is range 1 vertical 1 on a Bard, but still, it's probably time to stop that combo.  Just...hitting Thief takes away a lot of easy damage.

16. Dancer

Nameless Dance good.  One of the few jobs whose combos aren't really in shambles from bans already on the books.

17. Samurai

Draw Out still a skillset, even if there's nowhere to really go with it.  Can still go to Bard, I suppose, they do have innate MAU.

18. Ninja

So obviously this is between Ninja and Bard.  Bard doesn't get harps till part way through Chapter 2.  Also, there's at least one all-undead fight they'd need to deal with when the only harp is bloody strings.  Also...I presume quite a bit less damage--there's no charge to boost up harps.

19. Bard

Not a bad class in LFT, we just hit all of the combo pieces like quick attack and charge rather than banning Bard itself.

20. Calculator

Also not a bad class in LFT obviously.  We just banned all the calculable spells first.  Although, I guess it depends how the ban is defined--if when Time Mage is banned and you learn haste you're still allowed to math skill haste, obviously that moves a bunch of stuff around.  (Calculator maybe 8th, Time Mage maybe a couple of spaces lower).

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Additional thoughts:

On the ordering of Squire vs Chemist, Squure also has Replenish in LFT, which is mage-friendly healing that can self target.  And it’s more compatible with mage builds (MA formula) and restores more MP at least to one target, and can self-target.  So the case for Monk over LFT squire looks a bit weaker.

There is a question that could be asked about Dragon Spirit, potentially you could self activate that in fights that didn’t activate it for you.  Buuut, it’s a reaction and needs to compete with other reactions.  And like…you can pretty easily get one reraise off of it, but two might be tough.  Tend to reraise at low enough percent that surviving a friendly attack is not trivial.  It’s a CBG ability so there’s non damaging ways to activate it like steal, but these are not necessarily easy to incorporate into a build.  And of course the reaction can still fail to trigger.  And of course, on top of that I’m not at all convinced it’s the best reaction even in a challenge that bans the better revivals.

Wizard…dunno if it’s really correct to be 6th.  Does feel like they very consistenly get used, and black magic set in Chapter 1, with fire/ice/bolt shredding non-knights, and poison being the preferred answer for knights.  Don’t really have a strong sense of the next best solution.

Maybe Samurai and Bard deserve additional consideration as just a source of healing after most of the other sources of healing went away early with the revival.  Both very limited, though.

[metroid composite]

Back to vanilla FFT ban-a-thon thoughts.

1. Calculator
2. Chemist
3. Summoner
4. Wizard
5. Time Mage
6. Priest
7. Squire
8. Lancer
9. Oracle
10. Geomancer
11. Monk
12. Ninja
13. Knight
14. Archer
15. Mediator
16. Samurai
17. Dancer
18. Thief
19. Bard
20. Mime

OK, revisiting this after just playing a bunch of LFT.

1st-6th are probably fine, not thinking about those too hard.

Is Squire 7th?  Is there a way Lancer could be higher than Gained JP Up and Move+1?  Ehh...no, I think it's still Squire, there are still a lot of good builds at that point, and they're pretty much all JP hungry.

Squire 7th

Is Lancer still 8th?  Ahead of Oracle?  Oracle helps a little more in Chapter 1--you may not have a lot of actual oracles, but I think Yin Yang might actually be the secondary on some characters--just gives range options.  Although eh, you could be unlocking some Geo elementals instead which also gives range options.  This isn't on the same level as Haste or Raise, where the difference between having these and not having these as secondaries is big.  Lancer gets good earlier in chapter 2, and might actually just stay more powerful throughout the game except against zodiac demons where Life Drain is better (Lancer still very good against zodiacs to be clear, baiting spells and jumping is good).  The key SCC weakness of lancers is negated here, cause you get to switch to a class with thief hats and smash fast enemies like balk and hashmallum.

Admitedly you're probably not going like...four lancers, cause you don't want four thieves in chapter 1, and also Gaffy and Agrias only have two good sets of armour to take.  But I don't think you're going four of anything else either.  (Four oracles probably not the play--obviously would be good eventually, but the early chapters look like the hard part.  Four monks will struggle in chapter 2, four geomancers fine in chapter 2 but just seems like it would want a better lategame plan, four ninja builds have an even bigger problem with needing quality Thief time).

I do think two Lancers to take advantage of the gear is pretty reasonable, though.  And JP requirements on lancers are fairly modest, like Level Jump 8 happening in Chapter 2 sounds like it would still happen even without Gained JP Up, and getting out of lancer doesn't need to happen for quite a while.

Geos admittedly are also very good chapter 2 classes once the MA gear shows up, as are oracles.  But those do come a little later in the chapter, and probably still less impressive than a 200 HP unit that jumps for like...108 damage.  Yeah, Lancer probably still okay 8th.

8. Lancer

And with that out of the way, I think it has to be Oracle over Geo.  Yin Yang with stuff like Paralyze competes for some of the same niche as elemental (useful option when you want to stay at range).  Life Drain probably the better boss killer than Attack Up.  Getting spillover JP to the party for Defence Up is legit.

9. Oracle

And yeah, having just seen Monk (admitedly in LFT) from Chapter 1 through the end of Chapter 4, yeah, remaining not that impressed.  So many enemies immune to earth slash.  Slightly hilly terrain still a problem.  Especially with no MP-using classes left (Chakra MP battery was one of the more impressive things a Monk can do).  So...targeting Chapter 2 and late Chapter 1 with Geo still looks good.  Last great Chapter 2 Wizard Robe abuser.

10. Geomancer

Thinking over my logic again, I remember needing to split up the dream team of equip armour Monk, cause that's the one remaining way to really benefit from equipment in chapter 2, and there's no real downside to it with all the other good support abilities banned.  And if you get over the hump of Chapter 2 and early Chapter 3, Monks can cruise once they get Power Sleeve, so the build has a real long-term plan.  Ninjas obviously good once unlocked, but Chapter 2 (and Chapter 1) looking like pain points here.

Is there ever a world where it's Knight here and not Monk?  Eh...no way right?

Well...hold on, hitting Knight hits chapter 1 very hard as well, as Knight is the best remaining class there.  Like...Monk is okay in Chapter 1, but no hats, no shields.  And Monks basically suffer throughout the whole of Chapter 2.  To the point that I'm maybe just abandoning the Monk plan and going to Ninja instead, or mediator for guns.  And Knight actually has relevant RSM for Ninja in the form of Equip Sword.  And...equip shield not bad on a Mediator either.  And actually speed break on mediators might be a real answer to some zodiacs.

So...what does monk actually offer?  It offers some quality of life lategame.  A revival option, eventually, but not early, and a mediocre revival option.  Eventually one dedicated monk will get HP Restore spillover for the whole party.

Um...ok, I need to think about this.  Is Equip Sword actually better on a Ninja than Martial Arts for fights where Concentrate isn't desired?  Tossing in some Ninja numbers...depends on gear.  (Like level 16-22 Ninjas against Velius with a Power Sleeve but no other PA boosting gear have 10 PA.  So 105 damage with martial arts, and 120 damage with Platina Swords).  But that said, toss on a twist headband and the damage is the same (144 for both).

How good is speed breaking?  Like...maybe good on specifically Altima and no other fight cause damage is still fairly high.  Nice for gun users like mediators against zodiacs if you don't get elemental guns, I guess, as they aren't hitting that hard, but speed breaking with ninjas sounds dubious.

So I mean, ok, lategame contributions of Knight still sketchy compared to the competition.  Mediators probably like them most (equip shield, speed break).

That said, still very much considering this, as like...you probably want knights in chapter 1 to support the people going through bad classes like Thief, and it's not wasted JP either, they have abilities that...maybe aren't that special, but can be learned and improve characters, and by the time the monk is giving HP restore from spillover and learning Revive you are probably stomping things anyway, like you could have Concentrate Move+2 Ninjas by that point I'm pretty sure.

Yeah, sure, kneecap people in Chapter 1 where they're weakest.

Knight

So...ok, obviously Ninja is still on the table for next.  Monk is also still on the table for next for many of the same reasons as before (last remaining revival, getting the party HP restore from spillover).  But also, Monk is the one remaining early class with damage (the other early classes left for Chapter 1 are Dagger Thieves, Dagger Mediators, and Archers).

Huh.  Is there a world where it's correct to hit Archer here and not Monk or Ninja?

How much damage does Archer deal with a long bow in chapter 1?  Sounds like 20, starting after Sand Rat Cellar.  Raising to 25 with silver bows at Lenalia Plateau.  Wave Fist is 36, of course, but...300 JP in Chapter 1 in a class you don't unlock for a few fights is not nothing, like...you'll get that towards the end of the chapter.  And less range on a class with less HP, of course.  What about handling Sand Rat Cellar before longbows?  The bow gun will deal 15, but I think importantly, it has 4 range so 3 move enemy knights will actually walk into it, letting you shoot and walk backwards.  Even if you had Wave Fist by this fight (which you probably wouldn't) the 3 range wouldn't let you do that.

So...ok, Archers definitely have a case for carrying the party more than Monk in chapter 1.  Monk certainly offers things too (that 36 damage!) but more range earlier is nice.

And Archer is actually offering impactful things to several builds.  Gun using mediators care about charge.  Ninjas care about Concentrate.  Monks also care about Concentrate.

Lacking Monk will hurt a bit later, due to no Revive and no HP restore, but I think you're in pretty good shape once you have Ninjas with Move+2 and concentrate, and Mediators with Charge.  And abandon and sunken state are fine HP restore replacements so like...mostly not having revival, but the blitz power of that Ninja build is probably plenty.

Knocking out Ninja is also reasonable here, as there's not a huge power level difference between Chapter 1 Monk and Chapter 1 Archer, but there is a large power level difference between Ninja and everything else when you get Ninja.

So...feeling like Archer vs Ninja?

Losing Archer obviously hurts in Chapters 1 and 2.  Losing concentrate mostly makes you suffer against non-bosses, but ehh...those can get bulldozed by stuff like dance, and Sunken State exists as ghetto concentrate.

Archers have arrow guard and I respect it, but there are so many other good reactions (including the previously mentioned HP Restore).

Yeah, feels like this is actually Ninja.

12. Ninja

So...ok, let's just list out what is left

Monk, Dancer, Bard, Archer, Mediator, Samurai, Thief, Mime

I am certainly thinking about charge guns at this point.  And maybe Monk finally, they still have revival, and now some of the best blitz damage.

Equip Gun Archer with punch art for revive and stigma magic sounds reasonable.  Just building a monk also sounds reasonable, maybe ending up in Archer with Martial Arts secondary, or in Monk with Concentrate.  Arrow Guard and HP Restore both good reactions.

I think it's going to for sure be one of Monk or Archer.  Just the two classes that aren't pathetic in chapter 1, while playing different roles.  (Mediator is pathetic in Chapter 1).

So like...I intuitively feel like this really ought to be Monk.  They're just generically seen as a good class, and Archers are generically seen as a bad class.

The thing that's making me hesitate on just slamming Monk is that like...I'm kind of feeling like Archers probably bring a bit more to Chapter 1, a bit better at handling Sand Rat Cellar, and Monks are really suffering from gear woes in Chapter 2.  But surely the long term must be better for Monk?  And like...yeah I think it is, but Mediator SCC kinda stomps most of the game pretty good once it gets guns, and add charge and shields and arrow guard, and you can slap equip gun on people while they unlock Bard and Dancer and Samurai for whatever you want out of those classes, and man, that really doesn't sound all that bad.  Archer just seems like it flows better into the remaining classes.

I guess Archer is also now the one remaining way to get a shield.  Which matters for like Balk fights, and not too much else.  White robes are also decent for those fights (but those are now only available on Mediator and Samurai, and if you ban Archer, then Mediator drops in value a notable amount).

Let's see...I think Archers are better in Chapter 1 (though not by a lot, I just value the 4-5 range), worse for Zaland/Barius Hill in Chapter 2 (monks only need to get to level 5 for 7 PA, and Power Wrist shows up after Zirekile Falls, bringing that up to 8 PA for 60 damage wave fist, whereas Archers are still looking at 5 WP here, so like 30 damage--longer range and higher HP of course), worse for the next four fights that matter in Chapter 2 cause Romanda Guns are storebought. Chapter 3 I think Archers are ahead until Bracer (even with power sleeve, monk's hitting like 10 PA, so like 90 damage wave fist.  Yeah, give me Mythril Gun over that--64 damage base, and charge+3 brings that to like 88.  With 8 range instead of 3 and no chance to miss).

And then bracers surely put Monks ahead for the last four fights of chapter 3, and then earth clothes as well in chapter 4 for earth healing, and also somewhere around part way through Chapter 3 Monks start having revival for emergencies.

But in terms of how much of the game each class is better, this is a surprisingly even split.

The numbers gap is going to be quite wide in Chapter 4 and late Chapter 3, so that's one argument to break the tie towards Monk.  But Archer routes will still have the range edge and the option of shields and the ignore evade edge (against earth immune enemies only, since earth slash is ITE, but there's lots of earth immune enemies), and the edge in terms of portability (Equip Gun+Charge unlocking bard/dancer/samurai much more comfortably than martial arts+punch art).

I...feel like I'm leaning Archer here?

13. Archer

Monk is definitely going to be next.  Only remaining early accessible class that isn't reduced to daggers in Chapter 1, unlike mediator and thief.  Actually has a good reaction in HP Restore--Arrow Guard was also good, but Archer gone now.  Once one of Archer/Monk is banned, the other almost certainly goes.

14. Monk

And at this point 15-20 will probably all be the same, so list with these changes now looks like...

1. Calculator
2. Chemist
3. Summoner
4. Wizard
5. Time Mage
6. Priest
7. Squire
8. Lancer
9. Oracle
10. Geomancer
11. Knight
12. Ninja
13. Archer
14. Monk
15. Mediator
16. Samurai
17. Dancer
18. Thief
19. Bard
20. Mime

[metroid composite]

Still sort of thinking about FFT weapons and what not.

God damn Mythril guns are good for when you get them relative to things like bows.  They're 8 WP.  The best storebought longbow period is also 8 WP.  The best sword at the time when Mythril Guns first come out is 9 WP.  The best book at the time is 8 WP.

That's actually so much WP for the time, at least with all the good weapons banned.  And mix that in with all the other nice things about guns.  They can be used with shields.  They don't miss.  They are 8 range.

Like I was searching around for a reason for archers who had access to equip gun to ever use their bows over the guns and I don't think they ever do after guns are available.  Maybe Gastrifitis, but IDK.  It's 10 WP, but a pretty big range loss.  Maybe windslash bow against Velius cause it can be strengthened and you just want to hit him while he's charging.

I've also been thinking, in terms of the 8 classes left at the end, whether Two Hands from Samurai has any value, maybe for killing zodiac demons.  And like...the problem is that all the good weapons it could have doubled happen to be banned.  It can only be used on katanas used from the samurai class itself.  Which like...baseline without the help of accessories towards the end of chapter 3 are looking like 60 damage.  Two hands doubles that to 120 (I think, not sure how brave interacts with two hands).  With a bracer 84, double to 168.

Is this good?  Well...not with Monk still in the room, since Power Sleeve Bracer from them at about the same level gets them to 13 PA and 171 damage.

Does this work well with charge due to high WP on Katanas?  Not particularly because the formula for charge+K is [((PA + K) * Br) / 100] * WP.  In other words, even for charge, the 12 WP katana is a bit more like an 8.4 WP Katana (that can be doubled with two hands).

So I mean, once again basically a Mythril Gun, except for being the only remaining weapon that is two handsable.

Honestly, if you wanted to get some gnarly setup for Wiegraf/Velius, you could also just send Ramza to bard and buff stats during the wiegraf fight.

What about charge harps?  How real are those?  Hmm...maybe a little bit real actually.  Ramza, at least, can get to 7 MA by the end of Chapter 3, generic males might be 5 or 6.  PA will be 1 for 8.  Can use twist headband power sleeve for 12.  divide by 2 for 6.  6*13 = 78.  If you can get off say a Charge+3 that's 117.  And it's bloody strings so self-healing is happening.  And Concentrate exists as long as archer is still legal.  Huh, that sounds...actually kind of good.

The last thing I wanted to check was Archer MA mult.  The reason being, I could imagine you might want to go say, Archer with equip gun, and Draw Out secondary for Kiyomori and Murasame, and...honestly it looks useable?  80 MA mult, I was worried it would be 65 or something.  Murasame in Chapter 4 could be like...60-72 healing without equipping for MA.  Potentially like 120 if you just have someone hard equip for MA (and if you're using guns, like...sure, equipping for MA doesn't really hurt).  That's...not amazing, but certainly useable.

Hmm...I was expecting deeper analysis to point me more towards Monk here for the #13 spot, but I keep finding more reasons to stick to Archer instead.

[metroid composite]

Starcraft

So Snowfire pointed this game out to me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=taPP871w6NM&t=2823s

Zerg vs Zerg where both players got into hive.

Defilers for plague on mutalisks, paired with hydras and mutas to shoot down enemy mutas, but also need lurkers cause otherwise zerglings would come in and kill all the hydras.

And then building ultras cause those beat lurkers.  And devourers to acid spore enemy mutas.

And Artosis mentioned that queens with spawn broodling are a possible counter to ultras.

(All this is possible only if they get to hive successfully, though).

[metroid composite]

Starcraft

Ro8 Soulkey vs JyJ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JkwJ_OHJBzU

Game 5 had a full mech build against a build with many queens, like either queens or hydras were the unit zerg spent the most resources on.

The question came up too--you can't use spawn broodling on reavers, but if you could, would that be good?  So we tested with a siege tank and a dropship to see if you can pick up a tank in response to spawn broodling to cancel the spell, and yes: you can, and the queen still loses 150 energy.  So that's a thing--reaver shuttle micro would possibly invalidate spawn broodling anyway.

[metroid composite]

So...I've been rethinking the whole trade approach to the starcraft unit tier list, and concluded it gets a bit weird when there's stuff like A-tier being all protoss units.  So...we get a bunch of looks at how good a unit would be in the hands of protoss, and none or very little in the hands of other races.

Thinking it's probably better to just look at a unit in all 9 matchups (extrapolating for the matchups where the unit would be traded).

Going with a simple scoring system like

4: matchup defining (defilers in ZvT, vultures in TvP, Siege Tanks in TvT)
3: mostly core, weird to play without them, but possible (Marine/Medic TvZ, Lurkers ZvT, High Templar PvT)
2: Nice to have (Dark Templar in every matchup, Ultras ZvT, Valkyries TvZ)
1: Has uses, but won't come up much (Dark Archons PvZ, Queens ZvT, Battlecruiser TvZ)
0: no use in the matchup.

So eg some samples with S tier units:

Zergling

ZvZ: 4/4 (matchup defining).

ZvT: 4/4 (matchup defining).  As impressed as I am by the hydra lurker defiler build, it still leans on zerglings for a long time.

ZvP: 3/4 (mostly core).  Used for early defence, some rushes, defiler food if the game gets that late.  But two builds stand out as mostly abandoning lings--lurker contains and hydra allins.

TvT: 3/4 (mostly core).  Are they more important than...any of the factory units?  I...don't think they are.  Like if one Terran had Vultures and one had Zerglings, I'd favour the vulture player.  If one terran had goliaths and the other had zerglings, I'd favour the goliath player.  But they are a superb unit to drop on tanks.

TvP: 4/4 (matchup defining).  Pretty sure Vulture Ling just destroys protoss--absolutely can't get map control.

TvZ: 3/4 (mostly core).  The rushes would be a problem; zerg's vulnerable to zergling rushes.  But going with all the other standard assumptions, which is to say terran zerglings would be coded to not fix terran's weakness to dark swarm, and would not get healed by medics...I think eventually terran would stop making them past some earlygame rush options.

PvP: 2/4 (nice to have?)  TBH, I actually haven't thought about this one too deeply, I assume they would drop off fast but there would be some kind of cheese cause they are better than zealots when in small enough numbers.

PvT: 2/4 (nice to have?)  Long games I think Zealots are generally better, but lings might be better when dropped out of dropships onto tank lines?  Might be worth making one or two to run in front and mine drag.  Might be worth it for just having a mobile army with map control sometimes.

PvZ: 4/4 (matchup defining) Um, yeah, zerglings destroy hydras cause unlike zealots they can catch them, and that seems like a big problem.  Add to that some really good cheese/pressure builds toss would pick up.

---

4s: 4
3s: 3
2s: 2

29/36

Siege Tank

TvT: 4/4

TvP: 4/4

TvZ: 2/4 (it can come up as a response to heavy lurker or heavy ultra play, but not an every game thing, and not the only possible response)

PvP: 4/4 (siege tanks would break this matchup)

PvT: 4/4 (Terran can't deal with siege tanks)

PvZ: 3/4 (Honestly I'm not super confident about this one so I'm hedging a little.  Siege Tanks might just be better against hydras than protoss tools like reavers and high templar, but...then again maybe not?  Could be anywhere from 2/4 to 4/4)

ZvZ: 0/4 (can't shoot up, lol).

ZvT: 4/4 (So...terran has to open either with goliaths or marines to handle mutas.  I assume zerg siege tanks would just break either of those comps unless zerg lost something super extreme like mutas or zerglings).

ZvP: 4/4 (a zerg hydra contain or hydra lurker contain backed up by siege tanks just sounds like it breaks the matchup.  Unless zerg loses like...hydra this sounds awful).

4s: 6
3s: 1
2s: 1
0s: 1

29/36

Mutalisk

ZvZ: 4/4

ZvT: 3/4 (technically possible to play without them as Shine demonstrated, but...still tempted to call this 4/4 just due to how much everyone hypes them up here).

ZvP: 2/4 (You don't need to make a single muta in any given ZvP, but the option is nice)

TvT: 4/4 (A little torn between 3 and 4 here, I don't think this would devolve into pure muta vs muta like ZvZ, but also we're talking about a flying unit that can fight goliaths and turrets reasonably well, and is way better than wraiths at picking off tanks, that sounds like it would suddenly become a real focus of the match).

TvP: 2/4 (I don't know that you make mutas every game, cause you do know that toss will at least have mass goons, and can really shut them down with the right tech, but the option for cheese seems nice).

TvZ: 4/4 (Zerg dies to mutas).

PvP: 2/4 (I think both players are kinda forced to go stargate.  If one player skips stargate, well, mutas can fight pure dragoon just fine.  But once it's clear that both players won't just die to mutas, probably don't actually build them, just make the opponent worried about them).

PvT: 4/4 (Mutas break this matchup beyond recognition.  Vulture Tank can not shoot up).

PvZ: 4/4 (Zerg dies to mutas).

4s: 5
3s: 1
2s: 3

29/36


---

Okay, I did not plan that at all, but all three S-tier units came out at 29/36.  That's...kinda neat, although who knows if I ranked everything perfectly here.

The real test will be some of the lower tiers, of course.

I haven't yet continued with this methodology, cause it turns out evaluating 9 matchups is tough, but let's evaluate queens.

Queen

ZvT: 2 I think.  I know I had them as the example of the "1" above, but the mere existence of queens scares most pros away from building mech ZvT, so even if they don't get built often, they do shape the matchup.  Having just seen a game with a lot of them may have raised my opinion too.

ZvP: 0.  No use here.

ZvZ: 0.  Just...they were highlighted as a possible counter to Ultras in super lategame hive vs hive, but super lategame basically never happens, and in the one super lategame hive vs hive game we ever saw, there were no queens--there could have been, but there were not.  One of two units we didn't see all game.  So...I think this is still a 0.

PvP: 1?  So...is there a world where these get built over high templars?  And...I think maybe?  They cost less gas.  High templar are slow ground based units, queens are fast air based units (same max speed as mutas).  Queens have 120 HP and 1 armour.  Ensnare probably decent in big dragoon fights (decrease fire rate and half movement both matter).  Storm would be better than ensnare, but again, queens are fast and somewhat maneuverable, that would be the reason to make them.  I'm not enamoured by the idea of spawn broodling since it doesn't work on reavers (spawn broodling on dragoons does work, but I don't think PvP games stall out enough for that).  Parasite might be ok--what are they going to do to get rid of the vision, kill their own dragoon?  You'd be fine with that.

PvT: 2.  Unit that is cost effective over time against siege tanks.  But time needed to build up energy is going to make them irrelevant for some timings, and you could also just go into Carriers too, or spend the gas on high templar.

PvZ: 0.  Surprisingly I'm really not feeling this one, despite all the big ground targets.  Ensnare against hydras when you are catching up with speedlots might be good.  Spawn broodling is obviously a fine choice against lurkers.  But I just have a hard time imagining spending the gas on queens over high templar.  One storm also tends to pretty close to kill a lurker (leave them with 10-30 HP) and you don't even need vision on it to land the storm, and it's 75 energy instead of 150.  And not sure it's worth-it to be vulnerable to scourge.

TvT: 4.  Yeah, I think these would be matchup defining.  The matchup that's all about siege tanks.

TvP: 0.  Maybe there's a world where ensnare is good in this matchup, cause it slows down and screws up ground armies charging into tanks, but I'm going to default to skepticism.

TvZ: 3.  Are there reasons to build this over science vessels?  Yes I think so, although lower priority cause you want to irradiate mutas until mutas aren't an issue anymore.  For about the same gas, you get the same amount of spawn broodlings as irradiates.  But spawn broodling can instantly clear out defences like lurkers, which otherwise you need to wait for the HP to slowly tick down.  Spawn broodling one shots ultras (which normally die to two irradiates).  A spawn broodlinged defiler can't get off one last desperation spell.  Also, they're a little better vs scourge (they get two shot like science vessels, but they're cheaper).

2 + 0 + 0 + 1 + 2 + 0 + 4 + 0 + 3 = 12/36

OK, and hydras might be worth looking at cause they are rising a bit (terran mech is becoming more popular, which makes hydras vs terran a thing.  Hydras vs zerg actually happened).

Hydra

ZvZ: 0.  This is maybe a 0.5 cause I have seen them used here once now, but still leaning 0.  Just...so underwhelming here.

ZvP: 4.  Not really convinced there's a way to play without these.  Someone did try this ASL in a macro game, but died pretty bad.

ZvT: 2.  You build them in response to mech.

PvP: 2.  They would be a cheese option.  Long term dragoons are preferable (once reavers and storm are out).  But an early hydra bust could knock down someone massing up dragoons with no AoE yet.

PvT: 0.  I just don't think you make them over dragoons in this matchup pretty much ever.  Same DPS as dragoons, but just die more to splash, and also die worse to vultures cause they're medium, and are worse at shooting down spider mines cause they need 4 volleys.

PvZ: 3.  You'd use them, like you use dragoons, when you have storm or a higher army pop.  But they'd be a bit better than dragoons against enemy hydras, and arguably also lings (higher DPS means lings don't get close as easily).

TvZ: 0.  Hydras bad vs zerg units.

TvT: 2.  They'd be fine I think.  They'd be a barracks unit.  A barracks unit that doesn't just die to vultures.  Also better than goliaths as far as their ground attack and HP goes to drop out of dropships on top of tanks.  Higher damage to tanks, survives about the same number of tank shots (2), costs less, less supply.  Their antiair is worse, and you presumably won't upgrade barracks so you'd stop making them eventually, but they'd be nice to have as an option.

TvP: 4.  Vulture Hydra would break the matchup.  Imagine terran but their barracks produces a unit that does something to protoss, specifically a unit that does all the things vulture doesn't (beats dragoons and kills buildings).

0 + 4 + 2 + 2 + 0 + 3 + 0 + 2 + 4 = 17

17/36.

Unsurprisingly better than queens, and worse than the obvious top 3 of Muta/Zergling/Siege Tank.

[metroid composite]

More starcraft

Carriers getting Mini a couple of wins with carriers.  Nothing too new, but hey, carriers are back and winning.

Another moderately lategame ZvZ with effort

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3nqOJlWGXpI

Devourers and a queen (for ensnare) made.

EDIT Notably, I suppose this is enough for me to bump queens up to 1/4 for ZvZ.  Made in an ASL game (and won).  Which pushes queens up to 13/36.

So...

Zergling 29/36
Siege Tank 29/36
Mutalisk 29/36
Hydralisk 17/36
Queen: 13/36

[metroid composite]

Starcraft:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIALkFIzjHw

ASL game where guardians were used (and another where the greater spire was started and then cancelled).

[metroid composite]

Thinking about guardians.

So I was thinking they were super late tech, slower than other tech that other races get, but that's not necessarily true.

Spawning pool (50 seconds) Lair (63 seconds) Queen's Nest (38 seconds) hive (76 seconds) greater spire (76 seconds) morph existing mutas into guardians (25 seconds)

Total 252 seconds.

Compare to carriers

Gateway (38 seconds) Cybernetics core (38 seconds) stargate (44 seconds) fleet beacon (38 seconds) build time for carrier (88 seconds)

Total 246...but wait, there's more, cause you need to wait for the interceptors to build, which is another 104 seconds for all 8.  So...effectively probably slower in practice to have them actually effective.

So like...guardians given to protoss, after making fleet beacon you'd unlock the ability morph some building into a greater version of that building (I guess cybernetics core cause that's where flyer upgrades are).  This would take about 69 seconds.  And then after that you'd be able to morph...say, Corsairs into Guardians, something like that?

That...might be worth considering against some terran pushes if we hand around units between races.  Notably one issue with carriers is how long you have a lot invested into the carrier itself without any payoff--typically 12 supply and 1200 resources that aren't doing anything for about 100 seconds, and aren't at full power for another 90 seconds after that.  Meanwhile, guardians, there's getting the greater cybernetics core (or however it's implemented), but once you have that, you can translate resources into fighting units reasonably fast (50 seconds, 25 seconds if the corsair is already built).

So let's look at the guardian

Guardian

ZvT: 1/4.  Yeah, it's definitely not on the level of ultras or dark templars, but it's nice that it's there.

ZvZ: 0/4.  The one unit that really has no use I'm aware of in ZvZ.  Bricked by Dark Swarm, can't hit air.

ZvP: 0/4.  Don't think I've ever seen them tried.

PvP: 1/4.  So...ok, hear me out.  Yes, they're dragoons but double the price.  Same DPS, same HP basically, much slower.  However, they have 8 range, and they are immune to reavers.  A couple of these supporting a reaver/goon army doesn't sound too bad to me.  Punishes the enemy reaver for getting close enough to land hits fairly safely.  Stacks more damage in one place cause they can hover above dragoons.  That said, if your opponent also techs, but they tech into storm you are sad.  Still, I think there's something here.

PvT: 1/4.  Would they be an "every game" thing?  No.  Would they be an "every game when you have stargates and are going towards carriers" thing?  I don't know about that either.  Yes, scouts have been used in a pro game, but scouts also come out like...80 seconds faster.  And stopping your cybernetics core upgrades to get the "greater cybernetics core" is also a little iffy for carrier builds.  But guardians are an air to ground option that is not scouts (which have the problem of being terrible) and is also not carriers (which have the problem of taking a long time to pay off from the point when you spend the money).  So...I think there might be something there.

PvZ: 1/4.  The fact that I'm having them morph from the corsair I think is biasing me here, but yeah, you often have corsairs anyway in this matchup, and yeah, maybe at some point you'll decide you don't need those anymore and then maybe you think about guardians.  I do think they are pretty iffy in this matchup cause scourge exist, and zerg naturally builds hydras even against ground, and they take a bucket of gas which protoss needs for other things, but...I don't think they're quite at the zero point.

TvT: 3/4.  They're a unit that can kill tanks for free and kill turrets for free, and while they are very cost inefficient against say, goliaths, for some reason they are 2 supply in a matchup that often gets maxed out.  And presumably they would morph from the wraith, a unit you get anyway.  There is a question of "is it better to get battlecruisers" and...unclear.  Guardians are definitely better ground damage (both by cost and by supply).  They are certainly more damage than a wraith against ground (6 DPS to 16 DPS), and obviously a lot better if turrets need to be busted.  I don't think they break the matchup, but they look nice.

TvP: 0/4.  Terran just has no reason to make an air-to-ground unit in this matchup.

TvZ: 0/4.  Yeah, just make a siege tank instead.  Probably harder for them to kill cause scourge don't work, and a much better unit.


Guardian: 7/36.

Couple of interesting surprises here, like the fact that I ended up concluding Protoss would use them (occasionally) in all three matchups.  I also gave them a higher rating than hydras for TvT (but lower than queens) which...yeah, that's probably accurate.

[metroid composite]

Alright, let's run through some other zerg units.

Ultralisk

ZvZ: 1/4.  I guess technically this gets a 1, cause I have seen it this ASL season.

ZvT: 2/4.  It's honestly maybe getting to be on the low end of 2 in the current local meta, cause hydra lurker defiler is growing so much in popularity, but I think it still gets pulled out enough to merit a 2.

ZvP: 0/4.  I can not think of an ASL level game where there were ultralisks against protoss.

TvT: 1/4.  Do I think ultras would get used at all?  Hmm...they're very, very lategame, require quite a bit of investment, and splatter to tanks.  The one question I have is whether it might maybe be worth considering dropping them on tanks.  You can load two of them into a dropship (same number as tanks).  So like...maybe if dropship count is a concern?  Two unsieged tanks (Same supply) do out-DPS an ultra, so would actually be probably preferable to drop on a sieged tank.  It is more ground DPS than two goliaths (same supply, same amount of space used in a dropship) but not even by that much (like one ultra's ground damage is like 32 DPS, two goliaths are like 26 DPS).  Although well...hold on.  I suppose they would be factory units, and they (like siege tanks) benefit a lot from upgrades (+3 attack per upgrade, +9 attack for all three upgrades) whereas Goliaths do not benefit very much with upgrades.  And with all the upgrades they are quite a bit ahead of goliaths.  Ehh...maybe they have a niche.  I don't think they're core, but some chance of seeing a few in some niche situations.

TvP: 1/4.  The two things I will say in favour of ultras--they're fast, so they could run with the vultures and be raiding parties.  And they can shrug off storms.  But ehh...I think the mobile raiding party plan is hamstrung by the fact that they just are very late tech.  Also, I believe they are cost inefficient against both dragoons and zealots.  Like...I sent 12 zealots against 3 ultras--same total cost--and there were 6 zealots alive at the end.  (This was with full upgrades on both sides).  Still, the idea of having a mobile raiding force of ultras and zealots doesn't sound too bad--ultras kill the stuff like cannons that normally vultures are inefficient at killing.  They might be a very occasional lategame tech.

TvZ: 1/4.  So...still sticking with the general philosophy of "anything traded to terran becomes a ranged attacker, even if that means having a ranged attack of 0 like an SCV" and "no you can't heal ultras with medics".  They would be...good outside of dark swarm...if fully upgraded.  Like...6 armour would be a big deal against lings.  But since we assumed for TvT they would be factory units...yeah, probably not getting those upgrades.  And not something you would build when going mech cause it is absurdly cost efficient to spawn broodling them with queens.  But on the other hand, if they're mechanical factory units, there might be some cute strategies with irradiating them and charging down the enemies.  Or at least forcing zerg units that weren't burrowed to retreat out of dark swarm.  Maybe there's some world where you go primarily bio but get mech armour upgrades.  There might be a niche here.

PvP: 0/4.  Bad into dragoons.  Bad into reavers.  Very high tech.  Not seeing it at all.

PvT: 0/4.  Bad into siege tanks.  Wouldn't even be that good into vultures (the general rule of anything sent to protoss gets a chunk of its HP converted to shields, which vultures would shred like dragoon shields).  Yeah...not thinking of an application.

PvZ: 0/4.  Yeah, I mean, they'd be fine if zerg went ling, but they aren't great against hydras, which zerg basically always makes, and if things go lategame...I mean, armour stacking would have a bit of potential (very good against lings, moderately good against hydras) but that would only last until the ultra got hit by plague and then their armour would be easily bypassed.  Just not seeing this either.

---

Ultralisk: 6/36

Interestingly doing worse than Guardians.  Although worth noting, guardians got much more of their points from when they were traded to other races, and not from the actual in-game matchups.

[metroid composite]

Time for more bad zerg units I guess.

Devourer

ZvZ: 1/4.  They do occasionally get built in this matchup.

ZvT: 0/4.  I've seen them built once, maybe twice, when guardian rushes were in vogue for a bit.  The seeming use of them being to slow down the attack speed of the wraith.  But I'm not convinced that was better than just building one more guardian.

ZvP: 0/4.  On paper on pure island maps devourers are the answer to corsairs.  That said, I don't think I've seen devourers used against corsairs since like...2005?

TvT: 1/4.  I kind of want to ignore the valkyrie/devourer interaction (and corsair/devourer interaction), since it's so specific to mixed race compositions.  That said, I see no reason to ignore devourer/goliath interaction, since goliaths are just slightly better hydras, so that seems like fair game.  So the question becomes, do devourers invalidate battlecruisers?  And I feel like the answer has got to be no.  Sure, if battlecruisers get acid spores on them, they need to retreat, but retreating to the cover of tanks is usually possible in TvT, and on the flip side, Devourers are juicy yamato targets (get killed exactly--yamato deals 260, Devourers have 250 HP) so I don't think they like...invalidate battlecruiser play or anything.  But still, devourers would probably show up from time to time.

TvP: 2/4.  Devourers would be a pretty big deal against carriers.  Even if they only worked with goliaths and not valkyries they would still be big.

TvZ: 0/4.  By the time terran could have devourers out, they can also have science vessels, so no.

PvP: 0/4.  Yeah, so antiair in PvP is mostly for shuttles, which Devourers can't kill (6 DPS!  Less than an SCV lol).

PvT: 0/4.  The one thing I will say is that...if terran makes mass cloaked wraiths to kill carriers, one devourer could goop them so even if they snipe observers they'll be visible.  I...don't think this is enough to merit higher than a 0.

PvZ: 0/4.  Pretty sure Protoss can force zerg to switch off from mass muta play faster by just keeping their corsairs as corsairs than by teching into devourers and morphing corsairs into devourers.

---

Devourer: 4/36

Obviously I'm playing a bit loose with the "Devourer armour shredding doesn't play as nice with valkyrie/corsair as it does in actual 3v3 or whatever" which does lead this to being the lowest rated zerg unit, but that's on purpose.