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Author Topic: <Untitled IAQ Project> Round 6: Character balancing. What MvC2 ignored.  (Read 10147 times)

Talaysen

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Healing should be linear, so we need to ignore one of the INT values in the equation (and MDef and SPI because those affecting your healing is stupid even if it makes sense).

Healing = (Power) * INT

or

Healing = (Power + INT)*K, K constant

Leaning more towards the former just so it scales well (a bit more important than damage, really).  Also lets us nail down exactly how good we want the healing to be (i.e. 50% to average is easy to figure out for all levels, while it is impossible to work at all levels with the second formula).

Dark Holy Elf

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Voting for the first, yeah.

Erwin Schrödinger will kill you like a cat in a box.
Maybe.

Dark Holy Elf

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Most of this is based on discussion in chat with Djinn, for the record. Definitely not all me.


Quote
I'm presuming these roughly double at level 50?

Yes.


Comradery: Fine, but it should modify Vitality, not Defence. Either modify personal stats only, or equip stats only, and modifying equip stats here seems too potent.

It's arguably too potent anyway? Two positives for one negative, and one of the positives is instantaneous. As I've ranted before, we have too much encouraging PCs to hang out in the same hex as is. Maybe lower the positives to 5% to make it more of a double-edged sword? Maybe not, thinking on it, Yiu can't really camp in a hex and take advantage of heightened hex if enemies aren't coming to him.


Encouragement: SPEAKING of ally clustering being encouraged!

Should not include Yiu. Yiu is encouraging others, he does not have 10% auto-regen, because that's silly in our low-healing setting.

Suggested healing multiplier: 0.8. This will lead to Yiu restoring 9% of an average PC's HP, more relatively to lower HP folks of course. Insert sad or possibly amused comment here about how Meilin's defensive spread makes her terrible at benefitting from Yiu's encouragement.


Appropriation: Looks good. However, he should only be able to steal from any given enemy once per battle, to avoid farming an enemy for money. Because that just makes no sense at all.


Coin Launcher: Seems all right as stated, although its exact formula will be pending the hammering down of exactly how much money the party has, what things cost, etc.


Noise Trap: Good call on OPB. A neat skill, I like it, but we need to watch out for making sure that if any enemies get totally screwed over by this (particularly bosses), that we intend that to happen. Powerful boss mages that we don't want to be spoiled will thus need other options after Yiu is available.


Frost Bomb: HT awesome status. Potentially very scary move here, but I'm fine with it. Runs into immunity, can be dodged well enough. (I'm assuming it's subject to physical evade? In which case, it just gets treated as a weapon with 60 hit, easy enough. Or even fixed 115 hit or something like that if we don't want it to be Acc-buffed, but I don't see anything wrong with Acc-buffing making it better.)


Torture Powder: Hey look, glorified ID. Anyway, drop its accuracy a little (maybe more accuate than freeze... +10 on it? So either a 70 hit weapon or 125 fixed hit, since it DOES let enemies get one more turn if they choose), and give it a duration... maybe 4 turns? But enemies can defend to speed it up. So that enemies can actually wait it out instead of being hosed utterly if there isn't a status healer around.


Smokescreen: Well, most of the game you can only make one switch. Still, a skill that allows a switch is neat enough idea. The evade boost... hmm. Don't really understand it. I guess the smoke creates it, but why do enemies not get the boost, then? Maybe make it a hex status affecting the hex Yiu is currently in and... I dunno. All adjacent hexes? Adjacent hexes currently occupied by allies? Neither besides Yiu's own? Just makes more flavour sense, mostly.


Also Smokescreen + Noise Trap = lulz. This has to be intentional. (I know that Yiu can't use Smoke under Noise, but still...) I don't really mind, it's not trivial to pull off and doesn't last forever, but yeah.


Chemical War: Yes, make it water. We need more elemental stuff! I really don't like the formula though. MT stuff is already better against more enemies, it doesn't need a nonsencial formula making it even moreso. Formula has been changed so that its multiplier is based on the square root of the number of targets. This should be rare (low cap, maybe 3-4?) since it's a very potent full MT attack and the drawback isn't really that big.


Noise Interference support: Make this subject to silence immunity.

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Talaysen

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Suggested healing multiplier: 0.8. This will lead to Yiu restoring 9% of an average PC's HP, more relatively to lower HP folks of course. Insert sad or possibly amused comment here about how Meilin's defensive spread makes her terrible at benefitting from Yiu's encouragement.

Suggesting that the healing formula be modified so we can use integers.  Just tack a /100 or /10 at the end and it should be fine (then Yiu's healing goes up to 80 or 8).

Dark Holy Elf

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Yeah, agreed with that. Don't care which.

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Talaysen

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Would say 100 since it's more intuitive and also gives us more room for balancing (175 power or something!).

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Because I feel like trying to distract myself from the mood I'm currently in, I'll try running some numbers for resident 'secret' character Selena Neid.

---------------------------------------------------------
Selena

Fast and frail pretty effectively defines Selena.  At first glance, she appears to be a character who requires protection at all times; an apparent glass cannon.  Her defenses, to be frank, blow, with her best being her, frankly, average evasion.  To boot, her physical damage is...laughable.  Her speed is notably high, however, matching with Katarine for fastest non-Guardian, and she has one of the best INT ratings in the game.  Of course, her stats are only one part of the matter...


Physical w/staff: L0: 114.  L50: 228
Physical w/light sword: L0: 96.  L50: 192.

...as stated, laughable.  She's not built around physical use anyway, however.


Now, for reference:
Start-of-game INT: 94
Endgame INT:187
INT/SPR ratio to average SPR: 1.56
Start-of-game INT damage boost versus average: 53
End-of-game INT damage boost versus average: 104

Spell stuff to be added later as I actually have to do something for school and forgot my calculator.  Goddamnit.
<+Nama-EmblemOfFire> ...Have the GhebFE guy and the ostian princess guy collaborate.
 <@Elecman> Seems reasonable.

Dark Holy Elf

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Noemi continued

First of all, as per discussion, both Mirek and Isolde's skills will upgrade twice. The first versions come earlymidgame, the second probably post-timeskip.

First version of Callida Leanae only adds half of Int to Str. Still a fairly big deal, but not as nasty. Someone else can come up with two names if they'd like.

First upgrade from Mirek just gives the passive, MP Focus (probably the more important, but eh, can't give her all the awesome stuff late, and this fits more thematically), the second gives the killing move, Draco Eruptus.

Haven't commented too much on the passives directly, but I've implied plenty about MP Focus. MP regen is cool (Noemi generally does this faster than most), and the ITD effect at full MP is a nice boost to her damage which is kinda underwhelming before this. It introduces some strategies about the debate between keeping her at full MP or not.

The other passive is Shao's, Idris Falx. I have some concerns with this which may be better covered with Shao himself... the ability to choose ANY (or almost any) element seems kinda annoying when most characters are held to only one or two. I think there might be some neat ways to account for this... like certain weapons are capable of certain elements only? (Could be individual weapons or classes, here.) But otherwise, the move is pretty straightforward, set weakness-raping of choice between battles. It'd kinda suck to choose the wrong one, but Noemi does have stuff besides her physical, although most of it isn't offence... so it is a bit concerning. I'll talk about this more when I do Shao.

Couple updates.

Ifris Libra

Changing the formula slightly so that spending low amounts of MP isn't so worthless to Damage = (MP * 4 + Int), so it's effectively a spell with power equal to MP spent * 4 that ignores defence and INT/SPI. Minimum MP requirement should be set probably, arbitrarily 20. Now, at Level 1, it does 170 (still a bit less than her physical) using 10% of MP consumed, while its maximum potential damage is less than before, 2069 at endgame.

Targetting change on this: either range 1 HT, or range 3 ST.

Arna Evalescere

Proposing it now works as follows: +20% Str/Dex for one turn, then 30%, then 20%. This keeps the resonancy effect while balancing the skill a bit more. Range 2. This is my standard range for defensive stuff, if it's not obvious. Phoenicis and Lupus are also to be range 2.


Combo skills!

Arna Libra

The description says it's ST, unlike the first version? Mm okay, needs to be pretty potent then given that the first Arna is HT, and lasts an extra turn. Anyway, spend X MP = (X/8+20)% buff? Works. At maximum potential this is about a 3.5x multiplier to damage, which is fairly nasty (less for people who are well short of their second swing) seeing as it lasts two turns. But it's competing with Ifris Libra, which pumps out over 2000 damage possibly to multiple enemies, so quadrupling damage of, say, a 600 damage physical is basically needed so it does +1500 twice, but delayed, reliant on another character actually hitting, etc. More versatile, though, it's not fire, can hit weaknesses if used right, and so on. This may need to be toned down if put on some MT physical or something like that. I dunno. I don't want to nerf it too much yet. Note to self, be careful with MT physicals.

Range 2.


Leanae Falx

Oh look, it's an excuse for some normal magic damage on Noemi finally! The main physical hurts quite a bit, since it's the ever-potent Callida Leanae in disguise, and then it adds something more on top of that! Probably should only add half INT to be sane and also not totally obsolete Callida. They should probably also share a cooldown gauge. Magic damage... hmm.

Magic power = 80
Hits = 2

Damage rises from 232 at Level 0 to 266 at Level 50. This is actually 414 at full MP, as a note.

Since it's modiably elemental this skill is quite potent, but it's competing with something else that's potent, so eh.


Strix Cruor

Healing gone bad! 50% mHP damage has some clear uses, the most obvious of which is that it's a decent gravity attack. Also inflicts a status susceptibility up status, which needs a name (suggestions?). Both are pretty neat.

Range 2, Accuracy 120, MP cost 80.


Teleport

Straightforward. Relies on Noemi's physical being competent, but luckilly for her it is. I assume it doesn't need an MP cost? This is strictly a flavour concern; if we decide it gets one, it should be small.


That about wraps things up. I don't have too much more to say, I think she's balanced enough, certainly tends towards the strong side of things as time goes on but I have no issue with that. Haven't talked about her support skills, but I think they're fine too.

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Maybe.

Dark Holy Elf

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Fairly significant stat rebalancing. Well, kinda.

First of all, what happened:
HP: -2 to Xun. -1 to everyone except Katarine and Eirwen
Str: -2 to Shao
Spirit: -4 to Shao, -3 to Aurel/Fahim/Kasia, -2 to Isolde, -1 to everyone else except Noemi
Speed: -4 to Aurel, -3 to Xun, -1 to Artur/Isolde/Shao

The HP and Spirit averages were both too high for my liking, especially Spirit, which needed to be much closer to Vit. So in general, I lowered everyone by a point in these. I excluded Katarine to create someone on a tier that I was otherwise unoccupied (I do this a few times here, incidentally), and Eirwen because she was already at G. I excluded Noemi from the Spirit cut because I like her Vit and Spi both being paired at perfectly average C's. I can make arbitrary judgements sometimes! I also lowered Spirit a bit more than this to get its average closer to Vit. Finally, the general speed hit was to get -that- one closer to a C average as well.

Okay. You'll notice a few characters got hit a little harder. Here's who, and why:

-Shao: Shao's average stats were crazy high. They're still pretty high, but now he has two meaningful stats below C+, at least, which he didn't before (C Spd and D Spirit). He still has some of the highest overall stats of any PC, if not the highest, so he can deal.
-Xun: Given Xun's plot and role as a summoner, his HP and speed both seemed higher than necessary. Also it meant he was no longer tied with people in his own party for both stats.
-Fahim and Kasia: Both got extra hits to Spirit because they're already dodgy to magic. Having both MEva and MDef is kinda overkill, note that in the physical version, the two are never found together.
-Isolde: She's the damage queen, so I have no problem with making players wait just a little longer for that smash (still isn't a slug, though) and taking her magical durability down a touch.
-Artur: Very small hit to speed, into an unused tier etc.
-Aurel: He's a defensive character (I intend to emphasis this even more when I go over his balance). He has no real need for speed. Also, lowered his mdur some. His mdur is still among the best in the game, but... go look at Nama's list of durabilities on page 5 of characters. He doesn't need to be THAT unkillable.

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AndrewRogue

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Plot Analysis of the PCs (what, it is part of refining too, jerks)

Noemi: Stats look fine and are fitting of a prodigy. Generally above average, notable in the important categories. Has a nice, round equipment set that expands. Her skills are spread pretty nicely. My only objections are that Teleport is kinda weird in general (was there a particular reason for it?) and that its definitely not Quieting. I would also suggest see get a raq ID based Quieting skill to demonstrate the effects of uncontrolled/imperfect Quieting before getting access to Lupus. No problems with her being good as, with some years under her belt, she'd likely be a flat rival for Erastus and the like.

Erastus: Speaking of. Surprisingly durable old man, but good for the man who was once one of the best practitioners in the Empire. He was clearly a health-nut early on. Or perhaps the madness simply empowers him to keep on trucking. Who knows! I find the heavy weapons and armor kinda odd and would actually trim him back down to more medium style stuff, but it can be justified well enough. Just saying it strikes me as vaguely odd. His skills are pretty beastly, but he's also, plot-wise, probably a top tier PC who, at his prime, could go toe to toe with anyone in the empire. Vaguely disagree with the existence of Song of Discord, as that seems much more a Guardian trick and would probably be better left with them (and its a little strange as a resonant ability, frankly). He is a beast, and it is fitting.

Kasia: Noemi's buddy, and the one who can't quite keep up with her extraordinary friend. She has a fairly broad range of abilities well (and honestly, I might recommend trimming her down a bit, as Noemi's group is freakin' utility and large ms central). Overall statistically a bit worse then her friend (which makes sense). Whip is really weird and I'm not so sure about it on the whole, but I can see some use for it gameplay-wise. Otherwise, looks fine. No big objections.

Aurel: Statwise, he lives up to the title of the Immortal Swordsman of the Empire. Monstorously tanky and not bad with the weapon either. Isn't overly evasive, but a guy who can heal his own injuries instantly? Doesn't care too much. He could probably use one more offensive skill to represent that he is indeed a military guy who does hit things, but he may be good enough with just reckless strike and his basic physical. Speaking of, his abilities are all fantastic. The only thing I'd consider adding is a skill or passive that allows him to resist/immune ID effects if we have them. Otherwise, he is pretty damn styling.

Shao: Is... really oddly good in the stat category, and I'm not sure why? Nothing about him particularly sscreamed highly awesome stats, but eh. He's good in the right ones, at least. On the ability front, Prism Blade should be Dissonance. We had a brief discussion about elements and think we vaguely determined we were gonna ditch the dark type, I think? Maybe? Either way, his abilities generally look good and fit the character decently well (although healing trap is still a bit weird to me). Definitely lives up to his role and fits his characterization and position in the world.

Isolde: Another PC who is definitely a ringing endorsement for generally high stats. Fits, and all the bad ones make sense as well given her combat style and personality. Magic Counter should be Dissonance. I believe we discussed making her elementally aligned to Earth and Ice, so no issue there, just keep it in mind. Otherwise her attacks represent a nice clean fusion of melee and magic, making her an incredibly fearsome opponent. She's probably just below Erastus at his peak in terms of raw power and ability. Her abilities are pretty styling. The only one I'm really uunsure of is Counter Magic, but eh, it can be justified.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2010, 10:26:33 AM by AndrewRogue »

074

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The only one I'm really unsure of is Counter Magic, but eh, it can be justified.

Hm.  If Counter Magic is to be removed, then we'll have to add another skill--active or passive--and/or rearrange the cluster compositions.  Also, I'd need suggestions on what to replace it with, more than likely.

Admittedly, it was a compromise of sorts.  Everyone was imagining her as Tactile.  Djinn wanted her to be more Blue Mage-ish, this was rather early in production before we knew how party layout would be, I decided to compromise with the FFT-style Counter Magic.  If there's issues with that, though, I'm open to suggestions on what to replace it with.  (Admittedly, Counter Magic is a reason why I would say that I'm more in favor of Isolde taking a MEVA hit rather than a SPI hit)
« Last Edit: May 02, 2010, 04:10:39 PM by Namagomi »
<+Nama-EmblemOfFire> ...Have the GhebFE guy and the ostian princess guy collaborate.
 <@Elecman> Seems reasonable.

AndrewRogue

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Continuing On

Faulheit: Lazy and useless. Makes generalized sense on the stat front, although I'm not too sure on the reasoning behind the Spirit/Intelligence? Mechanical balance, I assume. Intelligence vaguely makes sense anyway, kinda curious if there was any reasoning at all behind the Spirit, though. Nothing odd with the abilities, really. Not a tton to say, really. He works.

Katarine: She's kinda weird on the whole, in that she uses some equivilant of vancian magic. Also a little odd in that she has Dissonant healing and buffs that have no backlash effects, which really pushes them in the direction of being resonant. I think we might need to talk about her on the plot end? She needs some massaging, since she currently exists outside of a ton of the normal magic rules and... isn't really a focal enough character to really give a fair explanation about it. Which isn't bad, per se, but it was in the neighborhood of things we were trying to avert, kinda.

Ilona: Stats are consistent and sensible. No arguments here. Abilities are all good and just the sort of thing that Guardians should be rolling with. Looks competent.

Selena: Her shitty Spi/MEvade kinda confuse me, honestly. Since she specializes in techniques based around moving these things around, you'd figure she had some talent for not getting smacked in the face by them. But this is gonna be a repeated complaint later on Mirek,  so its possibly ignorable and just quoatable as being a result of their skills, while, naturally, they don't deal well with it. Gespent-Barriere is weird as Resonance (redirecting Flow completely), and Gespent-Sklave is similarly weird given the skill above it is Dissonance. Hell, its weird as Resonance to begin with. >_>

Mirek: Altered a bit for plot reasons. I'll deal with him later.

Eirwen: Honestly, could do with, on the plot side, a little reduction to everything statistically. She's the most "normal" PC in the game, but might actually trump a couple folks in averages? Strikes me as off. Ability wise is pretty much fine, although Del Fuego is one of those things that vaguely strikes me as off. But its passable for gameplay reasoning, I do suppose.

Artur: Stats fit the guy. Biggish dude who is more clever than he looks. Might want to actually lower his intelligence a bit, but I think that was done to stick him on an unused tier? Disagree with Batter and Bruise being unified type. Ironically enough, it fits cleanly as Resonance. Debatably, unless we want to stick in a little plot use of his Resonance abilities (the sight based ones) we might want to lose them. They make a lot of sense to me, though, and do a good job of explaining more about how he manages to be who he is. Worth some discussion.

Rafael: This guy's durability is odd, but justifiable. On the ability front, did we ever settle on what to do with him? Like Katarine, probably needs some talking about.

Claire: Statwise, her mediocre Spi/MEva seem odd, but it makes sense if you consider that the plantation guard are not at all trained like Guardians. She's kinda weird, on the front of being the only Guardian with a Sense ability, but if you consider that she's also not got the magical defenses, it workable. Her fruits are kinda devastating and really feel more Dissonancy on the whole. On a plot level, there is some really annoying overlap between her and Ei. Probably needs some discussion, but isn't too bad in isolation.

Dark Holy Elf

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Random replies/thoughts on reading Andy's comments...


Noemi: I'd be fine with seeing Teleport go myself. It's rather random on her and doesn't seem quieting-ish.

Erastus: I'd very much like to can Song of Discord, yes. Just too good + does Erastus really need to be able to do this?

Shao: Yeah I dunno what was up with his stats! Already nerfed, more might be coming, but do keep in mind his versatility isn't tooo high so there's some gameplay arguments for him being above par overall.

Faulheit: The speed is unimpressive, and I kinda figured the mdur was a bit of a compromise here. You could view it as a result of him being pretty unflappable. I'm not certain.

Rafael: I really don't like his sheer volume of abilities, idly.

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AndrewRogue

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Yiu: Stats are fine as he is the group bad-ass normal. Ability-wise... I dunno. Something feels off about him. His devices need slightly better explanations (i.e. why other PCs can't just use 'em, which is easy enough). I dunno. Something about his abilities is just nagging at me. Maybe I'll be able to articulate it later. He just feels like he's missing something or is too off balance or something. Don't ask me. Also, the typing on his moves probably needs to be reexamined.

Meilin: Already brought up we need to talk about her "Guardian" status (for a couple reasons). Otherwise... stats generally look good. And why did NEB give you 900 abilities to make me look at? Why? >_> More seriously, bow and sword skills look fine. Support looks fine, too. Not much else to say.

Xun: Stats are bad, which works well. Would actually raise his Dex a bit so he's not quite so squishy and justification in that he was a competent sailor, and they are somewhat dexterous and all. Would argue resonance for his skills on the whole. I'll deal with his pets later.

Jin: Stats and numbers look good. Needs some abilities. Heard Meilin's support (minus the charm thing) were gonna get passed.

« Last Edit: May 07, 2010, 12:59:48 AM by AndrewRogue »

DjinnAndTonic

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Updated the wiki with things discussed in chat. C/P'd because I don't have time to type it all out and I know Andy's too lazy to check a watchlist himself~ (See? I've got your back, Andy!)

6 May 2010
Mirek‎ (Changed the 100% Focus bonus to only ITD, instead of both ITD/ITE)
Claire (Rebalanced Fruit effects.)
Eirwen‎ (Changed skill names. Again.)
Selena‎ (Changed all skills to Dissonance.)
Katarine‎ (Edited Resource plot relationship. Added Backlash effects to buff skills. Changed Aura Lance to Dissonance.)
Faulheit (Learning method edited.)
Isolde‎ (Minor Counter-Magic flavour change.)
Shao‎ (Changed Dark-type to Disquiet-type, which is now his last-gained elemental skill. Changed Prism blade to Dissonance instead of Resonance. Fixed story reasoning behind Trap Charges.)
Erastus‎ (Removed Song of Discord. Updated story relevance of Charge-based skills.)
Noemi (Changed Teleport to an ID skill. Edited skill names to English/Latin mix.)
Fahim‎ (Illness, See Mind balancing.)

EDIT: Things are legible now.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2010, 01:25:57 AM by DjinnAndTonic »

Dark Holy Elf

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Just a quick list of who has what status attacks. Subject to change, but becoming more relevant given who I am currently looking at (Shao).

Poison: Added by Fahim's Illness and Rafael's Degeneration
Bleeding: Added by Isolde's Executioner's Curse (L1-3), Kasia's Called Shot - Abdomen, and Meilin's Bloodletting Shot
Backfire: Added by Isolde's L3 Shock Blade
Burn: Added by Fahim's Exploder and Shao's Exploder
Frostbite: Added by Fahim's Frostfall and Shao's Frostfall proposing kill
Paralysis: Added by Fahim's Shocker, Shao's Shocker, and Skywhale's Playful Charge
Immobilise: Added by Kasia's Called Shot - Leg, Shao's Glue Trap, and Po's Mud Shot
Displaced: Kill this
Disoriented: Added by Fahim's Gust and Yiu's Coin Launcher
Blind: Added by Bai's Flash, Fahim's Illness, Kasia's Called Shot - Eye, and Shao's Flash Strike
Weakened: Kill this
Healblocked: Added by Kasia's Rehabilitate, Rafael's Degeneration, and Shao's Healing Trap (also Kasia/Rafael support effects)
Charm: Added by Fahim's Illness, and Meilin's Alluring Strike and Peerless Display (also Meilin support effects)
Stun: Added by Claire's Petite Madeleine, Meilin's Ringing Blow, and Xun's Old Sailor's Trick (also Artur support effect)
Misfortune: Added by Isolde's Executioner's Curse (L2-3)
Berserk: Added by Rafael's Obfuscation
Scorch (hex): Added by Erastus' Scorch, Emberstorm, Flame Wall, and Rain of Fire, and Ash Elemental's Scorch, and Agni Titan's Desert Torch
Frozen: Added by Yiu's Frost Bomb
Fragile: Added by Yiu's Torture Powder
Backlash: Added by Rafael's Reciprocation
Silence: Added by Fahim's Illness, Noemi's Lupus Howl, Shao's Void Strike, and Yiu's Noise Trap (ignores immunity)
Delay: Added by Bai's Trained Response, Faulheit's Pressure Blast and Pressure Bomb, and Isolde's Steel Force/Shock Blade

*Note: PC Healblock immunity should not exist, so we can remove the "ignores immunity" tags from the healing that causes it. I'd argue that enemy immunity to it should also be non-existent, but would settle for it being extremely rare.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2010, 06:38:39 AM by Dark Holy Elf »

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Dark Holy Elf

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Shao

Overview: He still has excellent stats. B-/B-/B-/B/D/C/B on the relevant ones. This means he's rather physically durable (1.23ish) though a bit below average on magic. Average speed, good accuracy. Damage with his actual physical is fairly midrange. This overall probably works (much better than it did before when his physical damage was overtly good, he was fast, and both his durabilities were above average! But I digress).

Shao's main thing is hitting elemental weaknesses. His raw physical bruising isn't top tier (see: Isolde, Meilin, Artur, Mirek) but it's quite serviceable, accurate, and he can hit all three physical elements. Add elements to that and there's a fair bit of damage potential present, and he even has GT at his disposal every few turns. With some status mixed in. And then there are his traps...


Base damage at L50:
432 damage at 100 hit, spear. (2-)
461 damage at 110 hit, light sword. (3)
403 damage at 115 hit, gloves. (6-)



Cooldowns: In the interest of combining these to avoid the spamming of similar moves... well, this one is simple. Shao has three:

1. Prism Blade - 3 turns
2. ST version of his elemental skills - 1 turn
3. GT version of his elemental skills - 3 turns


Skills

Proposed Passive: Exploit Weakness - If an enemy has an elemental weakness which Shao hits, then a percentage of Shao's Int equal to the elemental affinity minus 100 divided by 2 is added to his Strength for that damage (so an enemy who takes 150% to fire adds 25% of Shao's Int). Since Shao's Int and Str are similar, this roughly turns 150% into 188% and 200% into 300%. Additionally, if Shao strikes a burned target with a fire attack, they take 150 extra damage instead of 100.

Shao really, really wants to hit weaknesses. It's what he does and what he is about.


Prism Blade - Should also be listed as an active, as well as a passive. As an active... hmm. I'd vote it have a quick recharge time (1/3 turn) but to compensate up its cooldown to 3 turns, making it moderately impractical to hit multiple elemental weaknesses directly in one battle. Its cooldown is independent from his other moves. Anyway, obviously his signature, and straightforward enough.


Flash Strike - I'm proposing this be his first skill, because we don't really have enough light damage in the game as is, and it fits symmetrically with Void Strike being the last. Adds Blind, hit rate is 30%, lasts 3 turns. Blind is potent since it affects both physicals and magic, remember. One definite use for this skill is the GT version in an attempt to control a few enemies. Also, the name made me think it should be accurate.

ST version - 1.1x Dex, 0.8x Str, +20 hit, 30% blind (3 turns)
GT version - As above, but 0.6x Str, 20% blind, hits a 4-hex cone
Initial


Exploder Fist/Blade/Spear - Burn! Burn is highly synergistic with Scorch, and this is the move's main use. It also slightly lowers enemy attack power, which isn't as good as blind obviously. I'm actually kinda opposed to burn having a poison effect, seems like that's just copying pokemon, and the added fire damage and attack penalty is enough. Simple, flat effect I'm proposing on Burn: it adds 100 to any fire damage sustained. Obviously better with Scorch, though Shao himself makes good use of it due to Prism Blade.

The skill itself emphasises a single powerful hit which will probably make it most useful with his higher-Atk weapons, i.e. spears.

ST version - 0.5x Dex, 1.75x Str, -10 hit, 50% burn (3 turns)
GT version - As above, but 1.25x Str, 33% burn, hits all hexes around Shao
Gained around Level ~8

GT version is notable for doing 360 damage assuming a spear, though 90 hit


Shocker Fist/Blade/Spear - Paralysis time. Coinflip status, you have a 50% chance of not being able to do anything, which on average means you lose 1.5 turns if you live long enough. Obviously that's rather cool, a more potent blind (because it also stops effects which don't make accuracy checks). Of course that means it's going to have a lower hit rate.

ST version - 1.5x Dex, 0.6x Str, 20% paralysis (3 turns)
GT version - As above, but 0.5x Str, 15% paralysis, hits all targets in a line
Gained around Level ~15


Sword/Martial/Spear Downpour - Displaced is the a status that is being canned. Instead I am proposing this attack inflicts Misfortune, which seems sensible enough for water to me, and is a rather cool, currently underused status. No crits/counters is fairly neat spoiling, and doubling crit rate against this enemy certainly makes for some neat twinking options. I see water being inherently weaker at damage to make up for this cool, and not unreliable effect. Helps that... it's water. It's not as inherently offensive as most of the other elements Shao has.

ST version - 1x Dex, 0.7x Str, 50% misfortune (3 turns)
GT version - As above, but 0.4x Str, 33% misfortune, hits all targets in a line
Gained around Level ~20


Sword/Martial/Spear Frostfall - With Frostbite being shown the door (hey it's a burn clone except with less synergy, zzz), this moves now inflicts Frozen instead, which is much more potent! Unfortunately it's bad at actually adding said status. Still, a nice move when you want to roll the dice. The base attack is similar to its fire cousin, but more accurate in exchange for less raw power.

ST version - 0.5x Dex, 1.6x Str, +10 hit, 10% freeze (2 turns)
GT version - As above, but 1.1x Str, 8% freeze, hits all hexes around Shao
Gained around Level ~25


Void Strike - Silence is cool, albeit spoilerful. Disquiet element is rare and freaky, dunno if this will be good or not. Its multiplier may need to be modified as such. For now I'm making it inherently superior to a physical, sort of his go-to attack. 634 damage ST with a light sword, using the usual conventions. It's a bit of an 'ultimate attack' for him after all.

ST version - 1.1x Dex, 1.1x Str, 30% silence (3 turns)
GT version - As above, but 0.8x Str, 20% silence, hits a 4-hex cone
Gained around Level ~40


Support effects

I really dislike Shao's current support effect (making ally physicals elemental) since they let the entire party use his gimmick! I really don't like that, if you want to hit weaknesses, Shao should be your man, but his support effect makes me want to use a party with him sitting on the bench. Whoops. The bonus needs to be more subtle, I think.

Honestly, this is one of the reasons I made exploit weakness. A smaller version of it makes a lot more sense to me to turn into a support effect.

Prism Aura - When PCs strike an elemental weakness, they deal 15% extra damage.

Prism Roulette - Is fine. Man does he wish he could stick around for this one.


Traps later, I need a break from this. Comments so far?
« Last Edit: May 07, 2010, 03:22:15 PM by Dark Holy Elf »

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DjinnAndTonic

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I like what I see. The only thing that I would suggest changing is actually -increasing- the multiplier on Void Strike. Since it's supposed to be his go-to move and since I'm sort of predicting a large number of Disquiet-resistant/immune enemies near that time, it'd be nice if he does really good damage with it when he gets the chance.

Exploit Weakness and the proposed changes to the Statuses (Fahim and Xun's pets should make these same changes) are really cool.

I also approve of the change to his Support ability. Though I'd make the bonus a little more worthwhile (15%).

He ends up very synergistic with Rafael, I believe? I think Rafael has an 'add elemental weakness' skill. If I'm misremembering that, then Shao should probably pick up something like that.

AndrewRogue

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See what Djinn said, pretty much. Not sure he actually needs a higher multiplier though, as it really shouldn't be too good or its going to end up overshadowing the rest of his attacks. Being solidly better than his basic physical and adding a status that is probably pretty solid. Not sure on the Disquiet thing. I actually think its gonna be path dependent on which one is better. Like the generalized variety on his attacks, and really, his gimmick is pretty cool. Support change was quite good.

Dark Holy Elf

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Shao Part 2

Traps

Traps are weird. After all, why would an enemy walk into one? In effect, thus, a trap (excluding Healing Trap) works like a wall, except the enemy CAN move into it if it's really worth it. Flipside, if enemies are stupid, they may walk into them anyway, so Shao gets a free effect. I'd imagine enemy intelligence is something we can set to vary, in this regard.

All traps are limited by charges. Additionally, there is a "3 trap at a time" limit which I am extending from the description of Wall, just because I worry about battlefield clutter or potential overabuse of these otherwise. Could be argued on this one being higher, but coding-wise I feel like one should exist, at the very least.


Damage Trap

Gained at about Level 15, about (Level-14) uses

110 accuracy

On detonation, does 5 hits of 100 power (703 -> 789 damage). Takes element from Shao's weapon, works with Exploit Weakness (adding a percentage of his Int onto his base Int).

Lure in stupid enemy for massive damage (granted, could be more accurate). Wall off enemies from reaching things. Shao can litter and control the battlefield to a reasonable degree with these, but he doesn't have them in huge numbers early when they are most potent, and by endgame they're not much above Void Strike anyway.


Glue Trap

Gained at about Level 20, about (Level-19) uses

110 accuracy

On detonation, inflicts Immobilise for 3 turns, and lowers enemy speed by 25%.

"Hey, speed lowering is pretty rare in this game. As it should be, it's potent."
"How do I make Glue Trap overall better than something as damaging as a potentially weakness-hitting Damage Trap...?"

Connect the dots, ladies and gentlemen. This one is straightforward enough. Its optimum use is trapping a melee enemy then getting away from it while the party deals with other things (better yet, catch it in a hex no ally is adjacent to, though this is difficult), though even without that niche the speed down is nice. May even have some use against some bosses as a result.


Wall Trap

Gained at about Level 30, about 2*(Level-29) uses

Let's just get straight to the point, shall we? Summons a wall. Comparing it to Flame Wall... well, it's only length 1, but it's not brutally expensive. It doesn't last as long, though. I'm inclined to say that any direct attack (ST or HT) will destroy it instantly, but it will not be affected by MT or GT. So enemies need to waste a turn getting rid of it.


Instant Death Trap

Gained at about Level 35, about (Level-34) uses

Instant death is cool. Needs to be more accurate, though, since it's competing with good damage after all.

110 accuracy

Well that was simple.


Healing Trap

And now for something completely different! Obviously this is different because PCs can walk into it, and will certainly choose to. It's a little trickier to set up than normal healing, and not instant, and that's fine, because Shao is not the party's dedicated healer. Still, it's a good way to deal with things. And hey, it CAN be used as a healblock trap if needed. I guess. Maybe.

Gained at about Level 25, about (Level-23)/2 uses

Even simpler.


Comments on these? They're not really his focus, overall, but they give him a nice secondary niche so he can do something besides try for crappy statuses against elementally neutral enemies. And he synergises well with Erastus at battlefield control. Noemi's party is good at this.

I'm pretty happy with how Shao turned out overall.

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DjinnAndTonic

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Wait wait wait... his trap statuses are all based on Accuracy now? Are you trying to turn Evasion into a god stat?

I mean, I can understand if you want Traps to be avoidable through evasion, but I figured statuses normally just percentage checks, like you did with his elemental strikes?

Dark Holy Elf

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Magical evasion, actually, as they're all tagged as dissonance.

It makes no sense for attacks to have random fixed percentages of hitting that isn't subject to evade. Also, I want very little ITE in general.

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DjinnAndTonic

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So... Magical Evasion is basically how we're doing status resistance?

It makes sense to a certain degree, I just don't think that's how it commonly works.

Dark Holy Elf

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Plenty of games with MEvade do it. (FF6 for an obvious example.)

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AndrewRogue

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Some revised numbers. Not noting things like Dex, Evasions, Armor or Passives that matter here, yet.

Pdur Rank
Aurel 1.64
Rafael 1.59
Artur 1.48
Isolde 1.29
Jin 1.25
Shao 1.25
ClaireH 1.12
Erastus 1.12
Kasia 1.06
ClaireN 1.05
Xun 1.05
Yiu 1.02
Faulheit 0.98
Noemi 0.97
ClaireL 0.94
Katarine 0.72
Eirwen 0.71
Mirek 0.68
Meilin 0.65
Fahim 0.64
Selena 0.62
Ilona 0.52

Mdur Rank
Erastus 1.53
Aurel 1.36
Rafael 1.28
Faulheit 1.22
Mirek 1.22
Jin 1.20
Isolde 1.19
Kasia 1.17
Yiu 1.08
Fahim 1.04
Noemi 0.98
Xun 0.95
Shao 0.93
Artur 0.81
ClaireL 0.79
ClaireH 0.79
ClaireN 0.79
Meilin 0.76
Katarine 0.72
Ilona 0.71
Selena 0.71
Eirwen 0.68