Cthulu Mafia - TOWN (drunk) WIN, MADNESS SOMEWHAT AVERTED

[Margaret Houlihan]

((Will try to be in character from now on, although I'm gonna drop the accent completely.))

...Wh-what? I was just taking a small nap. So, what in tarnation we got here then? We got ourselves an unconfirmed-sanity cop claim, 3 potential millers when it's likely there are two at most, and... man, this just ain't a nice field for us to be working in.

I think it's pretty safe to be assuming that one of Snake, Jack and Seamus is lying. Two Millers seems a little harsh, but three? Add in Moses' works from the start of the day and it's fairly clear we got one scum in there. Obvious choice is Snake for a weak Day One, followed by a "pure pressure vote" ((>_>)) and then... he comes out with the claim, a proper job of an argument, and then... abandons the good arguing to post nothing but flavour for a few posts. I'm definitely not thinking this is just an unhelpful citizen now. ((but argh this is all so familiar, what with Ty Day 1. >_<))

Then we get Pietro's claim of "Well, I might be insane, the flavour implies it but I don't know." From what he's said, there's no reason to think he's insane - as Hadley (Anyone got a problem with me still using surnames?) said, whether he's Miller or killer, he'll still show up as such, so you seein' him as being in the red doesn't even suggest you might be insane. With that, it just seems like a cover for if you pick out the wrong person on a later date.

Hadley, on t'other hand, seems a lot better after his contributions to this whole discussion. Still wish you wouldn't use so many words to say whatcha gotta say, but I can't fault what yer saying.

So, like e'eryone else, I'm down to Pietro and Snake. Pietro's spent way too much time lurking, his claim just seems too convenient, what with being based on information already given to us and the added Insane/Paranoid cover. I'd definitely want t'see him go before 'Snake today, and since they're on 4 and 5 votes respectively...

##Unvote, Vote: Pietro
And that evens the scores at 5 votes each.

[Bardiche]

Ronald Dale;

Told you before I was happy to switch to you, listed reasons. Nothing's changed - I doubt your copclaim. If you're a Cop you must be sane or paranoid, given you saw a Miller return as scum. And yet you express worry that someone might counter-copclaim you.

Don't particularly trust the Miller claims completely either - this'd imply there's four people at least whose results are false.

[Bardiche]

Ronald Dale;

Four people whose cop results would turn up false, I mean.

[Chad Hutchins]

Oh.  Huh.  Man.  I coulda sworn I've never seen that paragraph in Peyton's post before.  Uh.  Sorry, really don't know how that happened then.

We got more things to worry about now anyway with half the game decidin to claim.  I gotta say Pietro makes a lot more sense and comes across a lot more genuine here than Hellsnake did, particularly with pointing out that people are now votin him just to vote him (and I'm no exception myself with the "I guess he's generically scummy" earlier today, yeah), so if it's between those two?

##Unvote: Kyle Handley
##Vote: Bill Hellsnake

[Bill Hellsnake]

*sigh* Alright, look. I'm gonna lay out my entire game plan (that's gone unexplained so far).

I voted Kyle for pressure to get the information out of him on whether or not he's the slow-killer. I believe the slow-killer to be third party, and I believe Kyle to be the slow-killer.

My posts last night weren't entirely flavour; I was investigating the little thing about Peyton and Moses, wherein Peyton protects Moses, yet doesn't seem to be the one who visited him last night and gave him all that depression. If Peyton had been the one to give Moses the depression, I would've (still) voted for Pietro today, and then Kyle tomorrow.

I've never been a miller before, and figured that claiming it outright would've just gotten me quick-lynched (lul, guess what?). I decided to change my mind (admittedly in the wrong order) when Moses gave us his story. I figured it would help us catch scum, and oh look.

Now for other stuff (since I believe that's all?)

I'm really not certain why people are so hellbent on lynching me today. It sounds like you guys've narrowed it down to Pietro and me, and you think BOTH of us are scum. What do you possibly gain from killing the CLAIMED REVIVER before the claimed cop. It's made even more baffling, considering the cop claim was quite sketchy, and this has been pointed out a couple times now. Honestly, this is outright stupid. I will vote MYSELF if I don't revive somebody day 3, since I'm guaranteed to be able to do something. Like, honestly, what do you get from lynching me today instead of waiting 'till later? Also made suspect is that the guy who's trying to super-push my lynch made a paranoia cry of "LYLO."

Now, tomorrow I'm going to be voting for Seamus, personally, (and you can hold me to this) since obviously one of the miller claims is bull. I know mine isn't, and between Jack and Seamus, Jack had nothing to gain from claiming it. He thought I was full of it because he doubted there were two millers, it wasn't game-breaking or anything, hurray. Seamus, however, spends his entire post attacking me, trying to paint me as bad as possible (even claiming that I was looking for an excuse to claim miller. How does that make any sense? No, really. How? I was the first to claim, and claiming it did nothing for me. In fact, it has only HURT me since. Why would I not just claim Reviver at beginning of day, and avoid claiming miller at all? Because there's a cop? Oh, hey, if Pietro is a cop, then I didn't know that until a long while afterwards, and if I was worried about cops in general, I would've just claimed it outright Day 1) No, Seamus is definitely scum, trying to save his buddy's ass.

Also, proof positive that Pietro is lying: In his claim, he says that flavour heavily indicates he might be insane, and he got a scum result on me. I claimed miller. He got a scum result on me. ... If he truly believed he might be insane, then not only would he have not pursued me so ruthlessly solely from the result, but he should've also backed off when I claimed miller, because that ties SANE cop results to finding me scum. However, he continues to pursue, and even says in his claim that he believes he might be insane. No, no, NO. This is wrong in all sorts of ways.

Oh yeah, Pietro. I have the world's tiniest violin here; want me to play you something?

In summary: Pietro's claim is incredibly shaky, and gives him wriggling room. Mine isn't. I am completely tied down, as I am guaranteed a revival of some sort night 3. It is outright stupid to lynch me today, unless you believe Pietro to be Town. If so, why?

[Maya Kumashiro]

Also, proof positive that Pietro is lying: In his claim, he says that flavour heavily indicates he might be insane, and he got a scum result on me. I claimed miller. He got a scum result on me. ... If he truly believed he might be insane, then not only would he have not pursued me so ruthlessly solely from the result, but he should've also backed off when I claimed miller, because that ties SANE cop results to finding me scum. However, he continues to pursue, and even says in his claim that he believes he might be insane. No, no, NO. This is wrong in all sorts of ways.

Blatant lie. Hellsnake is making up bullshit. Never said insane. Not being sane and being insane are completely different; see: paranoid.
Also I think he's scum regardless of the investigation. I chose to investigate him because he looked dodgy and it got worse from there.

In summary: Pietro's claim is incredibly shaky, and gives him wriggling room. Mine isn't. I am completely tied down, as I am guaranteed a revival of some sort night 3. It is outright stupid to lynch me today, unless you believe Pietro to be Town. If so, why?

Because ultimately we lynch people based on scummyness, not what they promise on the chopping block. Especially in what is evidently role madness of a sort.

[Bill Hellsnake]

Yes, and as far as everyone else is concerned, we're both scum. Pretty much guaranteed, to them. So, uhh, what's promised 'on the chopping block' kinda makes a difference. Now back off and stop misrepresenting me, or I'll gefa þér gott hvolpur og sumir ímynda sér ný föt!

[Bill Hellsnake]

Votecount would be appreciated, too.

[SnowFire]

Votecount.

Moses Bike [ 0]: Bill Hellsnake
Pietro [5]: Seamus (Excal), Peyton Hadley, Nathan Greaves, Moses Bike, Bill Hellsnake, Sam Hargreaves, Ronald Dale (Bardiche), Ethan Hayles
Bill Hellsnake [6]: Moses Bike, Kyle Handley (Sopko), Pietro, Jack Daniels, Seamus (Excal), Moses Bike, Chad Hutchins
Kyle Handley (Sopko) [ 0]: Sam Hargreaves, Bill Hellsnake, Chad Hutchins
Peyton Hadley [ 0]: Ethan Hayles
Ethan Hayles [ 0]: Ronald Dale (Bardiche)
Nikolai Kolmogorov [ 0]: Jack Daniels

No votes placed: Nikolai Kolmogorov, Martin Andrews, Peyton Hadley.

Mr. Hellsnake is 2 votes away from having a bounty placed on his own head.

There are 5 hours left in Day 2.  EDIT: There are now 29 hours left in Day 2, see Extension post below.  With 14 investigators, it takes 8 to lynch.

[Bill Hellsnake]

Y'know, looking at my own train, I'm not sure how I feel about it. I mean, there's Kyle, Seamus, and Pietro all on it. But on the other hand, there's Chad and Jack and Moses. And then, even if Peyton comes in and ties it up, we're relying on the two absentees...

I gotta say: this whole day has been WTF as all-get-out.

Anyway, if I do survive, Peyton, please don't protect me tonight. Not trying to guide it, but please keep it away from me.

[Bill Hellsnake]

No time, gonna be gone past deadline, go town, I've had my say, info on Aorako and/or town altars would be nice, etc. Ciao.

[Helga Pataki]

((Seconding call for a votecount.  I'd like to know exactly how much time we have left.))

"You seem to think you're a madman, Giovanni, but no murderer?  And on account of not trusting yourself, you figure maybe there's another policeman waiting in the wings, who oughtn't to out himself to the killers."

"Well, 'friend,' we agree on one thing: not trusting you."

"I'll allow you could be paranoid, but I *don't* allow you're not lying.  What's more, it so happens you're STILL LYING.  STILL.  ((I am like THIS close to thinking this is a freaking POST RESTRICTION.))  Dale DID give a reason for voting for you:

"Not sure I'm sane so don't counter-copclaim"? If you're a towncop why the hell would you think there's another cop?

"

"Ain't saying I AGREE with him on account of I don't, but there it is, right there in that record Nathan's been kind enough to keep for us."

"I don't have to agree with him, though, on account of I've got ample reason to believe you're Scum without listenin' to that:"

((Case summary follows))

• Your play on Day 1 fits the profile of classic Scumlurking.  You voted regularly, but offered little or no argument and no original argument with your votes.
• You posted very, very little until the heat on you rose today.
• The votes you've stuck with for the day have come on soft targets - people who are playing badly, be they Scum or Town, and attracting a lot of attention.  For a cop, you've sure let others do your scumhunting!
• When our Day 1 lynch claimed, you said it didn't matter (it didn't) - but gave as your reasoning that he was no longer useful to town.  Which was wrong and wrong-headed, and that lynch turned up a mislynch.
• You pushed to quicklynch Hellsnake today despite a lot of discussion about his guilt, your guilt, other cases and role/flavor speculation that seems likely to bear fruit.
• When Hellsnake made a claim that made people wavering between the two of you reason to nail you first, you made an appeal to possible LYLO when the Mod had just confirmed it was not LYLO in the last votecount.
• You claimed Cop, the classic CYA claim, then implied you questioned your sanity even though an Insane Cop COULD NOT return the results you've returned.  When called, you threw up a defense of Paranoia as some kind of "gotcha!"
• When other people have claimed anything, they gave everyone an extensive rundown of their flavor, in a game where flavor stuff at least appears to be important (see Moses's document, unless you think he's lying Scum).  When you claimed?  A vague assertion you may be insane.
• You keep lying.

[SnowFire]

Right.  Speaking of how much time we have left, and the continued mysterious disappearance of Mr. Andrews and Mr. Kolmogorov.

I have received an extension request from Alice / bofh / Nikolai.  I would normally be somewhat hesitant to grant this, but Shale / Andrews hasn't been around, either!  I've also checked with a few of the "maybe" Mafia players, who have said that it's unlikely they'd be able to replace into the game.  I strongly feel that *two* modkills would have the potential of irreversibly screwing up the game.  So.  An extension of 24 hours has been granted.  Day 2 will now end at 7:00 PM, EST, April 25.  I would also ask that people avoid a hammer until these two have had a chance to post (as I will still modkill them if they have not posted by Day end).

This is not a situation I would like to see repeated.  Unfortunately, a surprise extension seems the lesser of two evils here.

[Chad Hutchins]

If Hellsnake is scum and lying we should lynch him now, not days from now.  Even if he IS a reviver, that don't make him town.  What's to stop him from bein oh maybe like third party Aothingy cult and the guy he revives joins him in it?  Just as a possibility.  

What matters is what he gone and done with his role and his play, and that all seems mighty scummy here.  Specially the part here where he goes on attackin Seamus for the whole miller nonsense when Hellsnake himself played "miller" in just about the most anti town manner possible.  

Also he drops an "oh yeah Kyle's a slowkilling third party" with no particular reason other than "well he was on Moses yesterday and didn't get back on him today".  Which is... suspicious yeah and I ain't a Kyle fan but wow talk about sensationalism at the last minute, where was this last night when he was all speakin in tongues instead of helpin?  

I'm sure done comfortable stayin on him now.

... ninja by mod.  Wait, you seriously askin the game not to hammer?  Oh, okay.  Well I guess I'll check back in a day or two when we're ready to play then.

[Asuka Langley]

Super lame. You can guess how pleased I am for this happening on the day I'm not exactly super enthusiastic about given an expected death.

Even worse when we've already hit the end phase of this day. 24 hours of nothing much.

I'm already on the verge of swapping back to Pietro anyway without this encouraging me to speed up a lynch. I'd take either.

[Tanaka]

Nah what in the good lord's name is this?  A third Miller claim?


Goddarn it this whole mess is makin' my head hurt.  I may-a been wrong with my instinct 'bout not believin' there're two millers, but three?  Now that's just stupid.  And wha's worse is my bottle's done dried up.

An', I hate t' admit it, but Hellsnake does have a point.  If'n this miller claim was designed to save him it done backfired somethin' fierce.  An I don't like Seamus' claim none the more.  In fact I reckon a extra day to sort out this whole miller business.  If'n we lynch Hellsnake an' he turns up town, though, Seamus' is next on the choppin' block far's I'm convinced.

On the other hand, Pietro's cop claim, specifically after I said not to claim anymore, pisses me off t' all get out and don't seem like good town behavior atall.  Then again with him on the choppin' block I suppose it makes sense--not that anythin' else about the claim does t' me.  

Right nah, I'll leave my vote on Hellsnake, but if people decide Pietro's the one to go today I'm right fine with that too.  Hellsnake'd give us more infermation on both Seamus AND Pietro, but Pietro's flip 'd give us enough infermation on Hellsnake all the same.

I'm fine lynchin' either, le's just hurry up and git'r'done.  Both stink like shit.  I don't like bein' so close to the deadline like this.  Don't like it at all.

---

Ninja!

((...srsly?  Christ, really?  See what Alex said: get back to me when we're ready to play Mafia.))

[Helga Pataki]

##VOTE: Pietro Giovanni

Really, really disliking Hellsnake being at L-2, with two lurkers, well, lurking.

We have two people who are likely to be scum here.  One of them categorically cannot keep on being scum after tomorrow.  The other can keep on being scum for as long as he can bamboozle Town into believing him.

As Hellsnake says here, Hargreaves's assertion that Hellsnake was looking for a chance to claim Miller makes no sense to me.

(And Seamus, I don't know about Pietro and am sorry if it came across that way; it was four AM and I wanted to emphasize the actual insanity as soon as it occurred to me.)

::ninja'd by the Mod::

OK, we've got more time.

Incidentally, this brings to my attention another reason why Pietro's LYNCH NAOW was TERRIBLE - if we'd gone along with it, the worst case scenario would be:

The two Lurkers are town, Hellsnake is town, and somebody gets nightkilled.

And we start day 3 down four townies in one night!

EVEN IF HELLSNAKE IS SCUM, we could be pulling a 3:1 trade there.

Best case scenario, of course, is that Hellsnake and the two lurkers are all Scum and we either insta-win or are down to one Scum, but probabilistically speaking that's way less likely to happen - and only Scum!Pietro could KNOW, Town!Pietro could not.

And yes, the Mod had already announced that the two Lurkers, at least one of whom we seem to have confirmation has just not been around to this point, would die or be replaced if the day ended before their return.  Hell, quicklynching to end the day early could even make it harder to find replacements.

::Ninja'd by Moses and Chad::

Moses

what

Are you seriously talking about quicklynching in the face of the Mod saying it would mess up the game?  Out of PIQUE?

::headdesk::

Chad

If both Hellsnake and Pietro are lying Scum, we should lynch the one we CAN'T pin down.

Also, we have confirmation that WHATEVER Hellsnake can do, it ISN'T alignment-switching.  Alignment-switching is a power that was explicitly ruled out in the game setup, along with powers involving random chance.

::ninja'd AGAIN::

Jack

You don't like being close to deadline... but you don't like the deadline moving forward?

::headdesk again::

WHY ARE ALL THE PEOPLE I THINK ARE TOWN HATING ON THIS FOR NO DISCERNIBLE REASON?!

[Asuka Langley]

Also, call me cynical for assuming this is due to us being about to lynch at least one scum, and that at least one of the incoming mod kills is also scum.

Chad: there's a lot of stuff that the Hellchimpanzee could be, and I know that was just an example, but alignment changing powers have been explicitly outlawed in the rules.

I can't reconcile the Hellkraken's actions as town at all, but keep on veering back to Pietro over just how perfectly convenient everything about his claim is in terms of covering his arse. This is just the tipping factor on top of him having been scummy enough to get to this position in the first place, of course, but apparently leaving this not explicitly said gets him angry. Not to mention silly things like claiming I'm not buying his arguments on the Hellkangaroo when I've been the biggest push on that since the game started.

Peyton: while I'm covering random stuff, I've now actually read all of your stuff in detail, so have seen the part where you cover my later question about you [not] dying on a successful protect.


Peyton ninja: sorry for hating something that needlessly strings out the day and screws needlessly with motivation and momentum. There is little to nothing to cover in this extension.

[Tanaka]

((Peyton: I dislike this because right now I'm pretty convinced we're not going to bring ANYTHING MORE TO LIGHT until somebody flips.  We're just talking in circles and with some pressure on us from the deadline at least we'd be moving forward instead of bickering at each other endlessly.

We need to move to Day 3 already before anything else can get done, and delaying day 3 is just annoying and means I have to read more pointless Walls of Text.

This has nothing to do with me wanting to go to a concert tonight instead of sitting around bickering Mafia.  Nothing at all.))

[SnowFire]

Right, three things.
A) I am not happy about granting the extension either.  I'd call it actively annoyed, in fact.  Nevertheless, command decision, it's the lesser of two evils.  This does not mean it's not an evil itself.
B) On the meta Moses brought up.  Let me just address that now, so there's no time wasted speculating.  There are three possibilities here.  1, both potential modkills are town.  Town will hit LYLO much faster than designed and almost surely lose.  2, both potential modkills are scum / non-town.  Scum would have a nearly impossible time fighting back from losing that many of their own.  3, it's a mix of town / non-town.  This option is actually the most harmless for both modkills to go off...  but precisely so, in order to prevent metagaming, I must act as if it is one of the first two situations and take the threat of two modkills seriously.  I'm not taking into account who may or may not be lynched today.
C) The best outcome: Andrews & Nikolai both post before 7:00 PM today, and we hammer on time.  It can still happen!  If you make it happen, Alice / Shale, if you're out there reading this!

Votecount.

Moses Bike [ 0]: Bill Hellsnake
Pietro [6]: Seamus (Excal), Peyton Hadley, Nathan Greaves, Moses Bike, Bill Hellsnake, Sam Hargreaves, Ronald Dale (Bardiche), Ethan Hayles, Peyton Hadley
Bill Hellsnake [6]: Moses Bike, Kyle Handley (Sopko), Pietro, Jack Daniels, Seamus (Excal), Moses Bike, Chad Hutchins
Kyle Handley (Sopko) [ 0]: Sam Hargreaves, Bill Hellsnake, Chad Hutchins
Peyton Hadley [ 0]: Ethan Hayles
Ethan Hayles [ 0]: Ronald Dale (Bardiche)
Nikolai Kolmogorov [ 0]: Jack Daniels

No votes placed: Nikolai Kolmogorov, Martin Andrews.

There are now 28 hours left in Day 2, see Extension post above.  With 14 investigators, it takes 8 to lynch.

[Helga Pataki]

OK, Moses and Jack, I understand what you're saying better now.

Not saying I agree, mind, when we have two people who most of us seem to think are Scum sitting at an L-2 tie, but I understand.

Have to go now, should be back before even the original deadline.

[Chad Hutchins]

Yeah I was lazy and didn't check to see if that was outlawed in the rules.  It was just an example anyhow, the point is Hellsnake's claim guarantees nothing about his alignment even if it is true.

[Helga Pataki]

Yeah I was lazy and didn't check to see if that was outlawed in the rules.  It was just an example anyhow, the point is Hellsnake's claim guarantees nothing about his alignment even if it is true.

I agree it doesn't guarantee anything about his alignment.

What it does is let us CHECK his alignment by ascertaining if he's lying.

The only reasons to lynch him, as I said to Pietro, are if we have no other lynch candidates (not true) or if we believe he could have a power role so devastating that allowing it to exist for another day would be unacceptable.

:sigh:

Reluctant to say this because it's not really "scumhunting" (I'm much more inclined to believe Hellsnake is 3rd party if this is true), but we DO have flavor reason to be concerned about that.  Hellsnake's power seems to become available on the same night that my flavor investigation turned up as being sacred to the Order here in town.  I don't know if that's significant and don't want to believe we could be dealing with a potentially game-ending power role, but it does unnerve me a bit to see that connection.

(Also, raising the dead in Call of Cthulhu is... generally not something that goes well.  Herbert West, anyone?)

Finally, Hellsnake, could you confirm WHEN you'll be able to revive someone, assuming you live that long?

[Nathan Greaves]

"Dammit, I need a new pencil. This one's worn all the way down with all these crazy claims."

Nathan groans as he grabs another pencil out of his jacket.

"Okay," he starts, "here's my take. We have three people claiming miller - Hellsnake, O'Malley, and Daniels. Now, unless there's some really weird crap going on around here, I'd say at least one of those claims is fake, if not two of 'em.

As for which of them it is, I'm willing to say that it almost definitely isn't Daniels. Counter-claiming the miller claim would be a ridiculous thing for scum to do, because as it was Hellsnake was probably going down for that claim anyway. The only way that'd make sense is if Scum!Daniels is bussing Scum!Hellsnake, but no point thinking that without looking at the flips.

As for O'Malley, if he's the liar of the three, then the other two are probably genuine. Two millers sounds iffy, but three is so overblown as to be believable. In the end, it comes down to a question of whether it's Hellsnake or O'Malley, and right now an O'Malley lynch is pretty impractical.

Then there's Pietro's involvement in this, with his Guilty-But-Possibly-Not-Sane read on Hellsnake. Explains the lurking, but his need to express his potential insanity suggests that despite his result he doesn't actually think Hellsnake is scum. Not sure if his copclaim really amounts to anything in the end, and I definitely don't see how it clears him given that he claimed AFTER Hellsnake's miller claim.

Finally, there's Hellsnake's fullclaim of HEY I CAN BRING PEOPLE BACK FROM THE DEAD. Feel like specifying exactly how that works beyond 'a roach in my nose'?

Since there's an extension I'll keep the wagons even for now. Honestly, of the two of them Hellsnake's claim feels too ridiculous and ornate to let live, but given some of the other crap that's happened this game I wouldn't be THAT surprised. It'd make a helluva scoop either way, and it's still kinda early for L-1."

[Chad Hutchins]

My role PM says my name is Chad Hutchins, and on day 3 my name won't be changed to something other than Chad Hutchins.  When day 3 comes along you can hold me to that to see if I'm tellin the truth.  Is this valuable?  Does it say anything about me?  Is it worth keepin me alive for if you think I'm scummy?