Pokemon Double Battle~

[Yoshiken]

Mentioned this one in chat, thought it'd be good to gather the ideas here.

Nationals tourn over here, and my first time entering one, figured I'd like to make a good start. Rules can be found here, and I'd recommend checking them over, since some are quite... odd. Particularly the part about banned/restricted Pokemon.

So, since Deoxys is banned, I'm thinking Choice Scarf Mewtwo makes a good choice, since it will, at worst, be equal speed to -another- Scarf'd Mewtwo. For the other Restricted Poke, looking at Specs Kyogre, because Water Spout doesn't hit ally and that is just obscene damage - to the extent that I'm considering bringing in a tank to use Fake Out/Follow Me so Kyogre can get two high-HP Water Spouts off for free.
Past that, Garchomp and Wobbuffet both seem like good choices, being unrestricted Ubers. Yachechomp is Yachechomp is tearing shit apart, and Wobbuffet is good for Mirror Coat against the Restricted Ubers and Encore tricks against the rest.

For the last two? They most likely won't be used unless Wobbuffet prove to be a common occurrence, but I'm leaning towards Choice Band Scizor w/U-Turn, Pursuit... the usual set, and Blissey w/Toxic to take care of enemy Wobbuffets and taaaaaank against the likes of enemy Kyogres/Mewtwos. That or, of course, the Follow Me/Fake Out thing I mentioned earlier.

Anyways, any thoughts'd be appreciated. Having gathered opinions in chat, it does seem like the best idea here is to go on an all-out offensive, so still undecided on Wobba, but that's what this topic's here to determine. ;)

[Dark Holy Elf]

Seems a bit of a waste to use Garchomp and not a single flying or levitating pokemon with him to abuse Earthquake. Not sure who would fit best in double battle, but someone like Gengar would be cool, doubly if you also have someone with Explosion, since he abuses that in a similar way.

[Yoshiken]

...hrm. That's a fair point. So, is it better to have a flier/Levitater alongside Garchomp, probably replacing the Wobba, also allowing me to counter opposing EQs, or is it better to bring in one of the other Pokes I mentioned and cut Garchomp? I mean, its movepool is kinda limited, looking at it now. =/

Also, anyone who's around - +Speed or +Sp. Atk for Mewtwo? +Speed allows it to outspeed anything that isn't Scarfed/boosted, so leaning towards that right now, but kinda unsure and on my way there now, so need to make a choice ASAP.

[Cmdr_King]

If you're Scarf-ing it anyway, seems pointless to give it +Speed unless you expect to run into other Mewtwos in basically every match.  At least, that's what strikes me as the case.

[Yoshiken]

I'm thinking I might not Scarf it as it is, considering it'll outspeed most anything with a +Speed nature anyways. That said, I -am- expecting to see Mewtwos in almost every match.

Edit: Also, how important are IVs? Catching Timid!Mewtwo led to me checking IVs while getting crappy natures anyways, and I ended up resetting on a Timid because it lost 20 SpA from IVs.

[hinode]

Be very cautious about scarfing anything except probably Smeargle. Switching is much less common in doubles, especially the 4v4 fights that VGC uses - there's a very high chance that locking into a single move will be fatal.

Don't assume that the same Pokemon that are good/broken in singles play are the same ones that are good/broken in doubles. Wobbuffet in particular is pretty much a liability - your opponent can just ignore it and gang up on its teammate. Oh, and trapping abilities works on your teammate as well in doubles matches. Garchomp has to deal with Latis and weather-boosted Pokemon outspeeding it, plus Outrage is no longer an option due to random targetting.

Speaking of Smeargle, notice the complete absence of any sort of sleep clause in the rules. With Darkrai banned, Dark Void Smeargle is arguably better than most 'ubers' in this format, and you better prepare for it beforehand if you don't want to lose 4-0 to it.

Kyogre and Groudon being allowed means that weather is going to be even more common previously in doubles, and that's saying something. Abuse it as much as you want, and be prepared to deal with opposing 500+ speed Kingdras and company.

Be sure to look up all the usual doubles setup and anti-setup moves like Follow Me and Fake Out. Even if you don't use them yourself, you need to prepare for them to be used by other people.

[Yoshiken]

So, Choice Band/Specs bad choices as well? 'Cause that stat boost really seems worthwhile to me. :s

Really? I thought Wobbuffet didn't trap the ally, but was already skeptical about using it, so definitely gonna be dropping that one, yes. (Was skeptical -because- they can ignore it.)

Hrm. So, what would be the best counter there? I was considering RestTalking with Kyogre, so would that be a good plan? Smeargle itself is relatively slow, IIRC, so Timid+EV'd Mewtwo should outrun it, with any luck? I'd already assumed "Kill Smeargle as soon as it appears" was standard.

For weather, is having a 'Tar in backup a good choice, then? Kyogre & Tyranitar together should give me some freedom with weather, and having Scizor or Leftovers/Wish Blissey should be enough for my team to deal with it...? Or is it best to just make the most of whatever comes out and pray for the best? Should I be adding something like Kingdra to my team, on that note, or is it better to stick with Kyogre/Mewtwo/Blissey/something?

And, on that note, the something. I'm seriously thinking Follow Me is a good move here, if only to set up Kyogre, but that would also likely mean leading with Kyogre, which is something I'd rather avoid.


Edit: So, looked at both Fake Out and Follow Me. Nothing learns both, so... Smeargle time! Throwing in Dark Void and Protect, giving it a Focus Sash so it can actually pull off a Dark Void against anything that doesn't need to be flinched.
Last three are now. Thinking Scizor/Blissey for two of them, but not a damn clue on the last.

[Dark Holy Elf]

So, Choice Band/Specs bad choices as well? 'Cause that stat boost really seems worthwhile to me. :s

Life Orb isn't much weaker a boost (30% instead of 50% if memory serves), so may work instead as a decent option. Scarf should probably only be used on specific counters or setups. Note that pokemon with Swift Swim can accomplish much the same effect if your team has Kyogre.

EDIT: Also, without looking anything up, I'd be skeptical of Blissey's value in 2v2, same with most other pokemon noted for defence. Same reason as Wobb; without Follow Me you can't force the opponent's special sweepers to target Blissey. You might be able to pull something with Protect/Detect, though. I guess Blissey has Heal Bell, not sure if it's the best user of it though.

[Yoshiken]

Yeah, I've been looking at both of those since. Current plans include Life Orb Kyogre and Smeargle as lead, with Mewtwo and a Swift Swim Ludicolo to follow up. Also looking at other ideas for the last two slots, if needed, potentially being Scizor/Lucario/a second Follow Me user to replace Smeargle. >.>

Was told Blissey will be mostly useless, dropped it.

[Grefter]

If you were looking to have something fill in for Blissey space I would think something with more even defenses would be optimal in mixed would it not?  If you wanted something for Heal Bell junk stuff that would pretty much be the slot Celebi fills would it not?  Shame about that whole you playing on a real cart and all that jazz because lawl Celebi for general users.

[metroid composite]

Nationals tourn over here, and my first time entering one, figured I'd like to make a good start. Rules can be found here, and I'd recommend checking them over, since some are quite... odd. Particularly the part about banned/restricted Pokemon.

The banned/restricted list is pretty logical.  Banned = pokemon you can`t get except through special events (Mew and friends).  Restricted = pokemon with 670+ base stats (except Slaking).

I`ve been thinking about this metagame a bit myself.  Haven`t seen it mentioned yet, but from all I`ve read of others`analysis...expect enemy Mewtwo to run Explosion.  (One person uses Explosion the other uses Protect is like...one of the standard 2v2 strategies).  Also, the last two years rain dance teams were among the top of the metagame, and that`s when they didn`t have Kyogre.  So...be prepared to beat rain dance teams, and expect a lot of rain dance hate (i.e. lots of people packing Thunder).

The moves to expect a lot of...moves that have been big before include Explosion, Earthquake, Surf, Fake Out; given the inclusion of ubers, I`d expect some Dragon.  I`d expect a lot of Fake Out on the enemy Uber, and do something nasty with your Uber.  As for which two Ubers will be good...Giratina-O is immune to Fake Out--that alone might make it worth using.  Kyogre`s the most damage, but will probably get a lot of hate.  Metwo`s the fastest.  On speed, Palkia outspeeds most ubers, and can do horrible things to a lot of them--also has R4 to water, for people looking for more Kyogre hate.  Rayquaza is similarly slightly faster than the default 90 with lots of damage--compared to Palkia remove the extra water resistance, but add that it nullifies rain (and Extremespeed is handy especially if you expect Fake Out).

Who`s left...Groudon is a weather-changer, which is always handy, but given the two-uber restriction it strikes me that the uber slot might be better used on a different weather changer--like one of the Hail people with priority ice moves to smash all those dragons (ObamaSnow and stuff).  Lugia`s fast, but a wall--I`m not sure about walling as a strategy.  Ho-Oh is weird--really not sure about running a fire type when water is expected to be common, but on paper Brave Bird, Sacred Fire, and Roost are ridiculous.  Dialga...maybe--it`s not immune to Fake Out or Explosion like Giratina-O, but it resists them, loses some other relevant weaknesses (although goes from immune to weak against earth), isn`t locked into an item, and hits harder (less durability, mind).  Regular Giratina...ultra tanky, but part of the appeal of Giratina-O is that it can`t be hit by Fake Out which means it gets to smash stuff, and regular Giratina does that less.

Hmm...one more thing to think about that just jumped to mind--the whole no sleep clause stuff and smeargle...Choice Scarf Smeargle (spamming Dark Void) sounds pretty plausible.  This is 409 speed (faster than non-scarfed Mewtwo)...and 10 PP on Dark Void means this goes on for at least 5 turns.  Not necessarily advising you use this (you`d likely win a couple rounds and then lose to the 80% hit rate hax--better to be consistent).  Just...be ready to face it.

Oh yeah, something else to not lose to (this one`s always been a threat in 2v2, mind): Shedinja.  You can hit it with Fire, Flying, Rock, Dark, and Ghost.  You should probably have at least two pokemon with an attack of these types (given that ubers tends to see a lot of Steel and Psychic types, you probably were planning some Fire or Dark attacks anyway, but...).

Oh, one quick note--RNG abuse: last I checked it was tournament legal.  I assume you already know this, but it`s worth mentioning before you spend hours breeding.

What else...oh, you asked about IVs; unless you have moral qualms about RNG abuse, max these out on anything you can breed.  On ubers...  The difference between best possible IVs and worst possible IVs is like...the difference between 84 base stat and 100 base stat.  Average would be like...92 base stat instead of 100 base stat.  Which is to say, even if your ubers have average IVs and your non-ubers have maxed IVs, the ubers are still worth using.  The one I`d really watch is speed, especially on any uber you`re expecting to see mirrored.

[Yoshiken]

Whoa. Thanks a lot for this!

Okay, to say a few things... I'll be honest, I have no clue how the RNG stuff works. I looked into it, but couldn't make damn sense of any of it. My Ubers have good natures and above-average IVs in the relevant stats, which is definitely good by my standards, but they're not -perfect-. I'm thinking, looking over your analysis, that switching my Mewtwo for Palkia might not be a bad idea, but the Palkia I've got is set to be a physical sweeper. Could be interesting to try and pull off, I guess, and would help me deal with enemy Dragons a little better.
Mewtwo with Explosion? Really? o_O  Uhm. Right. I'm suddenly glad one of my starters has Protect - planning on running a Smeargle, but not using Choice Scarf, instead opting for Follow Me/Protect/Fake Out to ensure some extra turns for the rest of my party (a.k.a. Kyogre)

As it is, I'm... not maxing IVs, but I'm breeding for some IVs, at least - max attack Weavile, max Speed Smeargle, etc. Again, just the essential stats, for the most part.

I'm suddenly tempted to try running a Shedinja as a possible replacement for Mewtwo/Weavile/Ludicolo. >.> (Oh yeah. Currently looking at Smeargle/Lucario, Kyogre, Mewtwo, Ludicolo/Weavile. 'Colo's a Swift Swimmer with Swords Dance, Lucario is abusing Follow Me, the rest are pretty much standard strategies.)

[metroid composite]

I'm thinking, looking over your analysis, that switching my Mewtwo for Palkia might not be a bad idea, but the Palkia I've got is set to be a physical sweeper. Could be interesting to try and pull off, I guess, and would help me deal with enemy Dragons a little better.

I dunno about this metagame, but in 1v1 ubers, there's a lot more special defence than physical defence in general, which means physical damage dealers have an advantage in the metagame.

The biggest issue I have with physical setup Palkia is more the Aqua Tail accuracy headaches.  (Well, that and you lose Surf's multitarget).  Well...also that Outrage isn't really an option.  And...also that I'd probably jump first to Rayquaza rather than Palkia for a physical setup (for all that physical setup Palkia is quite viable itself).  Although granted...you do seem to be making more of a Rain-based team, which supports Palkia (water STAB + rain boost) better than Rayquaza (who nullifies the effect of Rain >_>).

Mewtwo with Explosion? Really? o_O  Uhm. Right.

Forgot where I read that as a strategy, but yeah--one quick note actually: it would be Mewtwo with SelfDestruct (M2 can't learn explosion).  Though yeah, Mewtwo's very fast with above average physical attack--the only other explody pokemon who can make that claim is Azelf.

I'm suddenly glad one of my starters has Protect

Protect is very good in doubles.  I wouldn't be too shocked to see a team where all four pokemon had protect.

- planning on running a Smeargle, but not using Choice Scarf, instead opting for Follow Me/Protect/Fake Out to ensure some extra turns for the rest of my party (a.k.a. Kyogre)

If you're planning on Follow Me abuse, it strikes me that Smeargle is made out of paper, so not spectacular.  Togekiss, Electivire, and Lucario are all considerably tankier, faster and have Follow Me.  If you want both Follow Me and Fake Out, you're looking at Raichu or Mr Mime, both of whom still have much better stats than Smeargle.  (And everyone learns protect, more or less, so no need to be picky on the basis of that move).

[Yoshiken]

Yeah, definitely looking towards a Rain team. My first thought for the setup was to use Kyogre for Water Spout killing, and Ludicolo works amazingly alongside it (for all that I'm still torn on using it)

My problem with Ray is Air Lock, while Palkia gets, if nothing else, Aqua Tail for STAB/Rain and Draco Meteor is still a viable option. (Also, why is Outrage -not- an option?)

I can't get hold of an Electivire with Follow Me, at least, since I don't have XD, and I'm really not looking to use a Togekiss there - expecting to take a lot of attacks aimed at Kyogre, so Togekiss' weakness to Electric is </3. Lucario is the obvious choice, but I'm planning on giving the Smeargle a Focus Sash, as might be expected, meaning I'll at least take a turn's worth of attacks - add in Fake Out and Protect and I could easily withstand 5 attacks, with one hitting Kyogre.
...that, and I'm planning to attach Dark Void to the last slot. Because, hey, if I can pull it off, I might as well, right?

As it stands, I'm thinking I'll just train up a team of, like, 8-10 Pokemon and then talk to you and Cap'n K about the best ones to use. >.> Completely torn on Lucario/Smeargle, Mewtwo/Palkia/Giratina and Weavile/Ludicolo right now.

[metroid composite]

but I'm planning on giving the Smeargle a Focus Sash, as might be expected, meaning I'll at least take a turn's worth of attacks - add in Fake Out and Protect and I could easily withstand 5 attacks, with one hitting Kyogre.

Umm...quick question, actually: are you leading with these two?  Because if so there's a mechanic I should mention--when multiple weather-causers switch in at the same time, whichever one is -slowest- is the one that sets the weather.  So...if someone's running Tyranitar or Abomasnow or slow-Groudon lead, their weather will trump yours.  (And all of these are trouble--hail and sandstorm can break Focus Sash, and Sunny Day makes water moves deal half damage).

Past that, yes, you can withstand 5 attacks by doing Protect, Fake Out, Protect.  You can withstand at most two moves with Follow Me, though....

...that, and I'm planning to attach Dark Void to the last slot. Because, hey, if I can pull it off, I might as well, right?

Oh well sure: that's fair.

I can't get hold of an Electivire with Follow Me, at least, since I don't have XD, and I'm really not looking to use a Togekiss there - expecting to take a lot of attacks aimed at Kyogre, so Togekiss' weakness to Electric is </3.

Ah, didn't realize the hoops needed for Electivire--pity since Motor Drive + Follow Me is an entertaining teammate for Kyogre.

Togekiss...quick random calculation with an invented attack stat puts Thunder at 57% vs Togekiss, and 47% vs Lucario (before EVs, mind you, which if you dump them into special defence will help Lucario).  Note that as well as Thunder, Grass Knot is sometimes used (which hits Lucario harder, but they both resist it).  Past that, if they're expecting Follow Me, they may just go for an area move like Earthquake (hits weakness on Lucario, doesn't hurt Togekiss) Explosion (Togekiss takes a fair bit more here) Surf (Lucario takes more) Blizzard (Togekiss takes a lot more).  Or, thanks to Kyogre's low defence, they might just go for a physical attack (a lot of which hit Togekiss harder--notably Dragon, for instance).

Eh, sure--while I don't think it's a blowout, I can certainly see why you'd lean Lucario of the two.

(Also, why is Outrage -not- an option?)

Well...it targets a random enemy.  And it's a lot more plausible that you won't be able to switch out to cure Confusion (only takes two dead teammates to be stuck).  Though sure, I guess it's still an option, it's just not as attractive.

[Yoshiken]

Hmm. Seems Abomasnow is likely to cause a lot of problems - Wood Hammer is going to tear Kyogre to shreds, and Snow Warning is going to break Smeargle like nothing else. Lucario can hit Abomasnow for a lot more damage, while Togekiss can survive most attacks better, outside of Thunder. (Yes, planning 252 SpD into whichever, so Lucario is almost certainly the better choice there. Also figured Grass Knot would be weak against either, so Thunder is the bigger threat.)

Also, it's not possible to survive 5 attacks doing a Protect, Fake Out, Protect chain, is it? That Fake Out wouldn't work, but I was (probably wrongly) assuming that Kyogre would get hit, meaning I could Follow Me the Focus Sash on the 3rd turn, essentially giving me Fake Out (1 attack) -> Protect (3 attacks) -> Follow Me (5 attacks to kill).

Yeah, I did look into Electivire specifically for that, but... ah, well. Lucario'll do, I guess.

Currently looking at Lucario/Kyogre/Palkia/Weavile now, with options of Ludicolo and Tyranitar. This team has changed so much that I'm starting to get confused.

[Mad Fnorder]

Abomasnow/Smeargle Trick Room setup gogogo

Edit for a bit more substance: Trick Room might be usable, if a bit gimmicky, with the right team? Can one of you mega-geniuses put together a team you could use with it? I'd actually love to hear people's planned teams, but I understand if you don't want to broadcast your picks before you make a run, because, well, competence.

[Yoshiken]

Captain K actually linked a video in Misc Links that was a Trick Room team from the Seattle qualifier of this tournament. It ran a Palkia/Breloom leading into Dialga and Parasect, where both Palkia/Dialga were running Trick Room and the Parasect was using Spore. Got about 4-5 wins before losing to an Explosion Golem (w/Focus Sash, so Palkia failed to OHKO it) that prevented him from setting up Trick Room with Palkia, leaving Dialga/Parasect against 3 opponents, and (I think) Parasect vs. 2 opponents without Trick Room.

Definitely viable, but I don't think it'll really work well with the amount of priority moves flying around anyways. I'm expecting to see a fair few Fighting-types running Mach/Bullet Punch, as well as the Abomasnows using Ice Shard in a few setups, so it's likely that something's dying during the setup turn, and it'll have little-to-no effect after that, thanks to priority moves still moving first under TR.

Once I've actually finished my team, I'll PM it to you, if you like. I'm still working out a few final ideas, but I think I've got the main core of the team sorted.

[Mad Fnorder]

Sure, I'd like to see it.

I'm sure gimmick teams with a lot of setup are just asking to get splattered. Like a Shedinja/Duskclops/Sableye Skill Swap team.

[Yoshiken]

Actually, fun fact: Skill Swap always fails against Shedinja. They thought that one through to prevent unending fights.

But yeah, there are some team gimmicks that are likely to work - Protecting Explosions seem pretty common from the Seattle regionals, and the amount of weather combos, be it Kyogre/Thunder, Groudon/Solarbeam or Abomasnow/Blizzard, flying around are ridiculous - I'm sort of planning some of those myself, although not too sure on how to abuse them properly yet.

I'll make sure to report back here next week on how I did as well. I wouldn't mind looking into the competitive nature of double battles - how much it'd change the tiers, what movesets would be ideal, etc.

[metroid composite]

I'm sure gimmick teams with a lot of setup are just asking to get splattered. Like a Shedinja/Duskclops/Sableye Skill Swap team.

To a degree.  I mean, it's noteworthy that last year's metagame (no ubers, sleep clause) had three major strategies: Goodstuffs, Trick Room, and Rain Dance.  Both Trick Room and Rain Dance require some setup, and they're a lot more viable than they are in 1v1 since it's not "Rain Dance, get forced to switch out, get forced to switch out, use one turn of Rain Dance productively, oh crap you need to set up again."

As far as doing wild things with skills, there was some talk of Gastro Acid + Slaking.  Truth be told, though, I'm not sure Slaking is worth the setup.  Unless you use EVs to boost his special defence, the durability is pretty unremarkable (similar special durability to Garchomp, I guess).  Unless you use EVs to boost his speed, you risk getting outsped by every uber ever.  And if you boost those two, then you're not boosting attack.  Hmm...I suppose Slaking without Truant might be overall better than Garchomp, but if you're going to use a pokemon to setup your team, you could do something like Reflect or Light Screen rather than Gastro Acid.

But yeah, there are some team gimmicks that are likely to work - Protecting Explosions seem pretty common from the Seattle regionals, and the amount of weather combos, be it Kyogre/Thunder, Groudon/Solarbeam or Abomasnow/Blizzard, flying around are ridiculous - I'm sort of planning some of those myself, although not too sure on how to abuse them properly yet.

You don't necessarily have to abuse them.  Just...most teams that don't abuse them will carry a couple of weather inducers just to screw up teams that focus on one weather type.  And sure, as long as you're causing, say, Hail, that makes Blizzard on your own people more attractive.

[Mad Fnorder]

I didn't know that about Shedinja! Wacky!

I don't have the time to train something up, despite being right by the Meadowlands for the qualifiers, but I'm almost tempted to go out anyway. But considering Kyogre is going to be VERY common, even outside full Rain Dance setups, doesn't that make Physical Rayquaza pretty appealing too? Extremespeed to make up for the Meh For Ubers speed if you don't want to scarf it, decent movepool- is it because you can't target Outrage?

[Yoshiken]

Physical Rayquaza most definitely is tempting. The one major problem it has is that Abomasnow is also popular, and Aboma/Kyogre both using Blizzard spells pain for Ray. If a team can pack something to deal with those and team it up with Ray, though, then it should do pretty damn well. Even better if that ally can immune EQ. (Although, yes, not being able to target Outrage is a major problem - I considered Outrage for a while on a few Pokemon, but went against it for fear of confusion in a 4-man team.)