Division Rankings rambling.

[DjinnAndTonic]

Because I'm too lazy to get on GameFAQs and find the Contenders topic or whatever. I just finished writing the FF12:RW stat topic, so it's on my mind and I wanted to ramble about Divisions.

Due to the RTS recharge times on the PCs, they're basically all coming into fights with a bunch of OPB skills and hoping that it's enough to take out their opponents before their reduced to using physicals. With creative equipment and passive-skill choices, most of them can muster up a decent strategy.

Vaan - When I first looked at him and saw TimeSlip, I thought he'd just be a Stop status-whore, but Stop's duration is so short (less than a 'turn'), it just isn't worth it. Instead, he's relying more on his Damage+Stat-Steals for a fun buffing game that adds up quickly. Dervish doubles his already gamebest-speed (not quite that good in practice), so he's basically a fast debuffer with decent durability. Obviously, his damage is better after debuffing, so he's better in a longer fight. He can also hit all the main elements with his weapons, so he's probably a High Middle.


Penelo - Penelo is... interesting.  She has one damage move, Holy, that she can use once every 25 seconds. In a game where one 'turn' averages out to 2.7 seconds. Along with her lolwhut Speed and Durability, she's obviously a Light. But she's got a few things in her favor. She can buff Holy up to some pretty respectable damage with Mystic Dance (247 damage just barely makes a OHKO with the 2.5x average is 245). She gets 1.8x damage against Flyers. She also has 100% Disable status, which lasts 10 seconds, possibly allowing her the time to recharge for a second Holy if need be. Also... Infinite Healing~! Though the actual unlimited spell, Cure, is pretty meh Healing (20%-ish) and slow. But she immunes Silence! Still, could make a High Light.


Kytes - Kytes is Vaan's little orphan friend. He actually appears in FF12 (it's okay, I forgot that too until I looked it up). He's also got more damage options than anyone in the cast and it breaks the 3-turn averages. Flare->Firaga->Thundaga->Blizzaga->Stonega->Bio is pretty ridiculous, especially considering that Flare can just break the OHKO mark with the right equipment set-up. Though it's not particularly speedy. He also has the best selection of status options in the game, but Silence is the only one really helping him. Complete glass cannon though. Status-bait too. Probably a mid-range Heavy.


Filo - Vaan's other, more annoying orphan friend. Another fast debuffer, though not as good as Vaan. She doesn't absorb the stats that she debuffs, after all. Not a lot of status or elemental options either. Only thing in her favor is that she does 1.3x damage to Melee fighters (and takes less damage from them too!). She's made of tissue paper to ranged fighters though.  High Light/Low Middle.


Llyud - Guy with wings. Literally had his personality stolen. He's this game's take on a Dragoon. Lancet's HP-draining is pretty meh, but it's there. His skills recharge fast, so he might get a few more of them off than the rest of the cast. Especially if turtles for a while with Vanishga (can't attack, can't be attacked, but his recharge meters keep ticking!). Has the advantage against Melee-types like Filo. That's it! The better speed and durability make him a more solid Low Middle.


Balthier - Fast! Durable-ish! Auto-wins against pure Melee-types due to re-applicable infinite 100% Immobilize. Average damage, some buffing, and 2-turn 100% Disable status. Immune to Blind! Spoiling Melee-range fighters alone nets him High Middle.


Fran - My kneejerk was 'Man she sucks'. But that's mostly just her status-game. Kytes just does it better. All of her status requires her to use a 'turn' to add the status to her weapon and -then- she can apply it 100% with her slow-ish physical until it wears off. And none of the statuses are all that great or long-lasting. However, she can pull near-OHKO damage off in turn 1 with Barrage+Hunter's Monograph (241), so she's a Heavy. Crazy. She also has a shot of near-full Healing to outlast most of the cast. Durability's not great. Low Heavy.


Ashe - Cast-best dueller. Due to the weird RW damage formula, if she equips the FullForce passive (increased Str/Mag when at full health), she can do crazy overkill damage with an opening Pyrotechnics attack. However, she's also the lucky PC who got the Ribbon, so it's quite possible she'll need to opt for Monarch's Monograph for status immunity instead of FullForce. She's the only PC who can hit Physical and Magical defenses with any decent proficiency. And all of her attacks are innately GT. She also has Hastega and Regenga to balance out the skillset. She's fairly average durability/speed though, and if something pokes her before she can use Pyrotechnics+FullForce, then she's doing about half the damage. High Heavy/Low Godlike.


Basch - It's Captain Basch! Physical durability of the gods + Protectga/Shellga/Regen! He also gets damage that actually registers with his basic physical, though it's thunder-reliant. Alternately, he can spam Flash of Steel fairly regularly (once every four turns!) with some awesome front-ended damage from Shining Ray if he forgoes the Tyrfing for the non-elemental Excalibur. His speed ends up pretty average in practice, so he's not too bad off.  He also has the '1.3x Str when user's HP is below 25%' passive ability to deal with stallers. Just lasting long enough to get off more than one use of Shining Ray is probably enough to get to Heavy.

[Dhyerwolf]

Figured I might as well also start posting these here since I don't believe that Contenders really get any views besides myself normally!

Lost Odyssey Final Rankings

Kaim- 3.6. About what I predicted midway through. Average damage, 167% HP! and fast. Decent high Middle slugfester, doesn't have the punch for Heavy.
Seth- 3.5. 140% HP, but more speed than Kaim. Not enough to be a winning trade, I think.
Jansen- 3.3. Weirdo. Can OHKO off 50% speed or can fatal status at 67%. Both of these are cheating off a very last second doublecast. Bad HP, but enough to at least function in Middle. And I thought his status wouldn't be good!
Cooke- 2.5. Well, I was wrong about Blind taking 2 turns! Instead it's only 67% speed, and she still has 50% HP and 10HKO. Cover...almost gives her a semblance of a strategy in Light against those that don't OHKO her. Still miraculous to have that HP, speed and damage and even get a 2.5.
Mack- 3.2. Higher than I thought, but Fear kind of cheats. Gives him normal physical spoiling at the least, which is pretty good for Light (Especially since he's decent otherwise)
Ming- 2.8. Can put Cooke's strategies to better use with a good extra chunk of HP and non-fail damage (Although...slower. Slower is the killer)
Sarah- 2.8. See Ming. I was wrong! They have one stat difference..for some reason.
Tolten- 3.65. Yeah, he also cheats in order to get this ranking. Gets the unique +40% HP to give him Seth's HP, speed is solid, and also has the option to switch out to an elemental immunity accessory. Throw in Guts to give him an extra durability kick,
Sed- 3.3. Has the physical speed, but not the durability of the others. Auto-Shield and Barricade are better in game than the DL. Status immunity is nice, but doesn't match Tolten's options.

And just for my own amusement, since I'll have a few more games to throw out somewhat soon, going to keep a random number log.
Tolten- 3.65
Kaim- 3.6
Seth- 3.5
Jansen- 3.3
Sed- 3.3
Mack- 3.2
Ming- 2.8
Sarah- 2.8
Cooke- 2.5

[Pyro]

Dhyer are you sure Sleep isn't good? I remember testing and believing Sleep -> Stone was a 100% perfect victory strategy provided the enemy was vulnerable.

Atelier Rorona:

Rorona: Godlike. Take her down in one turn or burn. Damage is insane, has buffing that makes Cecilia envious, and immunity to status/ID through equips.

Cory: Ligggght. Bad stats in general (although Rorona would like them, if only for the speed. Ironic)

Lionela: Light. Not a bad one if she can get going due to the infinite healing, but she isn't likely to take advantage of that due to speed/durability woes.

Iksel: Light. His damage is poor and he can't do much else. Tends to lose initiative too.

Sterk: Middle. Great HP and damage. Tends to lose initiative but he can take a hit to make up for it.

Tantris: Middle: Decent damage and almost always goes first. Not much else though.

Gio: Middle. Speed, durability, and damage. He gets all three right, even if he doesn't stand out as awesome at anything in particular.

[Dhyerwolf]

All LO Status came out to 100% when not against immunity. I just thought things were bad going through the midgame since you never have any idea what status to actually use against enemies. I just remember running into walls when I tried to use it in game, making me think little of it.

I believe that Sleep only lasts 1 turn in practice, so Ming and Sarah get nothing out of it. Jansen already has Stone+Stone, although if Sleep+Stone had the same effect, I suppose it could help if he ran into Stone halving and needed more turns to cast spells, but Stone+Stone doublecast is already cheating and the reason he really can stay afloat in Middle.

[Pyro]

I'll have to check some things when I get my copy back, but I recall Sleep -> Stone -> Stone being 100% effective, so Sleep must have lasted more than 1 turn...

[Dhyerwolf]

My notes have it having a 40% chance to wear off a round. I didn't test Petrify's chance of freezing up an enemies' action for a turn, but I'd gut check 50%. So the strategy definitely can theoretically work, but not great on average. Chances are that Stone->Stone is more effective in terms of chances in terms of shutting down enemy turns.

[Dhyerwolf]

Fire Emblem 8 (As a warning, I see very a good chunk of ITE not getting around FE evade. This is generally in games where just a specific type of damage just never hits evade so Grandia techs, Disgaea 1 techs, etc... as well as most magic.

Eirika- 4.3. 56% Evasion, 53% Damage, Average Durability. Evasion is great, but nowhere near the punch to deal with Godlike. Also yeah, Alfina crushes her like twice over since her Paralysis is one of the few moves that would deal with Eirika's evade (Others include Swift, maybe FF 6 ITE).

Ephraim- 4.45. 67% Damage, 1.35 Pdur, 36% Evasion, 30% Ranged Counter Option. Solid at slugging, but not Godlike level still. This Eph versus Sharon is a good fight.

Tana- 4.55. 46% Damage, 76% Evasion, Ranged Option. Good against all status, wicked evade. Effectively durable. Yuki's ITE...yeah, FE Evade gets everything, so normal damage in G3 just being ITE doesn't do it against Tana. That match is weird though. If he hits, he hits a weakness and he stalls with Shadow Warrior (Throw in potential half SP, and that is a really back and forth one)

L'Arachel- 3.4. 40% Damage, 40% Evade. Evade helps with Pdur a lot. Respect for FE evade could help her get to Heavy...at 20/12, which she doesn't get! Losing a chunk of evade and HP hurts. Average Middle though. Best non-Athos mage if she got full levels maybe (Ewan might be better)

Lute- 3.25. Moderate Evade helps balance defense, counters, etc...Solid enough for Middle. Would rethink match versus Peter.

Franz/Forde- 3.6. Jeez, actually looking at their ability to manipulate the Weapon Triangle makes them nasty against a lot of fighters. Basically average evade to 70% or so percent. They really don't like mages much.

Garcia- 2.5. 29% Damage, Durability isn't of note, not evading.  Any of the status running around Light is going to rape him. Honestly, Irenes one shot of healing deals with him with that damage. Kind of bad on top of no plot. Ew.

Joshua- 3.8. 40% Damage, 54% Evasion. Low Heavy, and not overly impressive. Evasion is very very meh for his class. Toadstool may take him, although that's a good match now.

Marisa- 4.05. 40% Damage, 73% Evasion. Marisa though, has a major extra chunk of evasion, if worse concrete durability. She's solidly Heavy whereas Joshua definitely isn't.

Cormag- 3.45. 49%. Pdur is great, Mdur is not. Middle. Not horribly effective different than the ranked Paladins at the end of the day if it wasn't for the few durability holes and that they have hit the triangle and he can't (Does hit the best part of it of course!)

Myrrh- 4.55. Borderline- Damage is...at least enough to start scoring some OHKOes on the frail. Defenses are amazing, defenses against physical/non-typed status is not. That's what holds her back.

Seth- 2.8. Average Physical with slightly below average stats...minus evade which sucks. Zhuzhen likely just outslugs (Balance with Zhuzhen now having more trouble...kind of against Garcia. Garc is still bad too, so not a big one). Can gain some evasion, although nothing amazing.

Gerik- 3.6. Cormag with much better defenses and no weaknesses.

Artur- 2.6. Not a good Light. Bad Pdur with bad evasion, less damage than Lute and L'Arachel too. Does have an argument for Ivaldi (And truth be told, a far better argument that say Joshua and Audhulma, which isn't even enough to be considered).

Saleh- 2.4. At least Artur has the Mdur.

Knoll- 3.2. Given his Pdur, if he meets a physicaller who can get around counters, he'll probably end up crunched. Still Nosferatu is solid against those he can counter and Mdur.

Ewan- 3.5. Unlike Knoll, if a fighter can get around counters, they still have to get around Thunder's evasion. Between the two strategies, he cleans up pretty decently. Funnest PC unranked from the game (And yet, the fodder level is quite high!)

Colm- 4.25. Average damage, but 76% Evade. Doesn't have Tana's ranged option and Mdef, but has better HP (And no weaknesses). Big losing trade since he's hit by a lot more status turn 1, but he's definitely a solid Heavy

Duessel- 2.4. Is horrible, and probably should have lost to Mint (struggles to 4HKO=not putting pressure on her), and doesn't really even have the plot for ranking. Can use all 3 weapons like Forde/Franz, but it's completely irrelevant because he's not evading.

Neimi- 3.45. Doesn't have the evade for Heavy although it's still quite nice. No counter option either, but evade works for this.

Innes- 2.5. Below average in every way, although rankable at least. Of all the S-rank weapons, he has the closest intersection of gameplay and plot backing to actually get it (Since...bows are bad, and Neimi  may just not use them enough to get an S in game. Still not allowing it; with it though, he gets a lot more evasion and damage, which at least makes him a good Light)

Rennac- 2.4. Lol. Evade is outweighed by defenses, 2nd worst damage. Even going first he may lose to Cai. The Pdur and bad damage combo don't really work. Along with Duessel and Saleh, the kind of worthless ranking portion.

Lyon- ?. Let's say...1 PC HP damage ish. Defenses help, although yeah....you kind of smash him to bits regardless. Gets in last strike, so he's kind of a mess to rank. Support is not good, so...well, HP could be 0.5ish. However, at 0.5, defenses make him pretty solid. I'd say especially against the short range...but that implies that he moves. So no, no counters, which means...that he'll often be eating two enemies attacks before attacking, which is not good. Eh, pondering.

Valter- 2.75. Okay, I objectively see why he could be good. He can double and crit you to death! He...may not move and also has pretty bad HP. A lot better if he moves, if he doesn't, Light.

Caelleach- Does this one move? Bad HP, isn't killing in a hit. It's a Light.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Valter and Caellach don't move in the English version of the game, no.

[Dhyerwolf]

Hmm, I'm trying to think of what can possibly save them because the defenses aren't enough, they aren't boxed in a particular way that at least make it hard to melee them to death, and the HP just doesn't function well even against 2 PCs attacking. Anything I might be missing?

[Monkeyfinger]

Those evade numbers look high, did you change the way you scale them?

[Dhyerwolf]

Evasion numbers are scaled the same way. The biggest non-level change is Tana, who went from 61% in Pyro's topic to 76%. By the time it's down to Ephraim (moderate evade level), the numbers are even. I could have juiced Hit by 5 more, but it wouldn't have changed the results by too much since the enemies just are not good at hitting. The big changes were the people who gained a good number of more levels (up to 7).

[Monkeyfinger]

Wait, I see what this is about now, didn't notice your new stat topic.

Is that how you personally take FE now, or do you still set average evade at/around 0% vs average accuracy no matter what enemies in game are like? I still favor that second method.

[Dhyerwolf]

The average still comes out to 0, regardless of what in game enemies are like. Probably just forget to specifically mention it in this topic. For the 76% evasive Tana's, you have the Duessel's and Garcia's running around. Just the people with bad evasion aren't as badly penalizes DL wise since most of the DL tends to have non-fail accuracy.

[Dhyerwolf]

Eternal Poison (Note, this is assuming equal levels, and no overlevelled equips. I will say that if it was really relevant, I don't think I'd apply equal levels. Thage and Marie might get a few extra and say...damage only, not-great at in game damage, non-buffers might lose a few. So Nena, Ares...etc)


Thage- 3.85- Low Heavy could work. Major flaw: The Pdur is about 60%, and she's marginally below average speed. Against the Fear susceptible though, it's OHKO her or die. Still, 60% Pdur (Might be above average speed with an extra level or two!)

Raki- 3.5. Fast, 2HKO (albeit...barely) or a turn 3 Fear inducer. Works for a solid high-mid Middle

Retica- 3.4. Without turn 1-2 fear, he'd be a Light. Fear is awesome.

Irina- 2.6. Hovers on a 3-4HKO, slightly slow, slightly undurable. Healing exists but is about 65%; however, if she can get the drop on blunt physicallers, she can hold her own. Resists aren't great. Okay Light.

Olifen- 3.75. Fast 2HKO (albeit only 2 shots of it and it's only 60%ish) and solid Pdur. Doesn't feel like the potency for Heavy is there, but...maybe. Magic backup....could be much worse, I suppose.

Logue- 3.15. Slow, very borderline 2HKO with some tanking. Alexei is notably better DL wise (Fracture is awesome, slow is...less so and Alexei has 10% more HP)

Levatte- 2.6. The rare story PC Light! Good at busting mages in a way (Confuse, AntiMagic) although...not great, he's wallable, he's slow, bad Pdur

Marie- 3.25. Fast, 50% damage and the 100% Confuse option. Bad translation here! Slashing art...could be of use at times.

Ashley- 3.2. Passable damage, decent healing off non-horrid Pdur, a few backup statuses. Lowish Middle works.

Reyna- 3.15. Fast, nice evade and some beneficial resists, decent durability. This works.

Glynne- 3.15. Durable and fast with passable damage. Ashley's path PCs feel similar in power

Alexei- 3.4 Awesome Pdur overall, although Mdur (especially to Fire, Wind and Holy) isn't good. Mainly works on smashing physicallers, and getting a 2HKO with Fracture in play. Berserker is good against healers.

Nena- 2.25. Slow with the bad, bad Pdur and some of the worst pure mage damage (Average! But still). Curse is an okay status, but doesn't get basic physicals. Often just gets outslugged. Sucked in game too!

Komori- 2.85. Fairly good Light. Damage isn't bad, good magic and physicals options, stats are averagish. No strengths, but no flaws, which works well in Light.

Vivian- 2.9. Fast+A few okay status options, as well a passable physical backup. Nice elemental resist set (40% on Fire at least)+Confuse to wreck some mages and healer types.

Velnor- 2.6. Meh. Irina without even the limited options really. That said, with evade and slashing art, can throw swordfighters for a loop

Ares- 3.65. Fast 2HKO (albeit only 2 shots of it) and solid Pdur. Doesn't feel like the potency for Heavy is there. Is Olifen with worse resists

Yuri- 2.4. Perfect Slow? Bad status to get. Otherwise, lots of healing, but bad Pdur. Still, faster and more damaging than Nena!

Stein- 2.75. If he lives two turns, Fear! So, he devours the slower. Not great, but works decently in Light.

Number Log
Thage- 3.85
Olifen- 3.75

Ares (EP)- 3.65
Tolten- 3.65
Kaim- 3.6
Seth- 3.5
Raki (EP)- 3.5
Alexei (EP)- 3.4
Retica (EP)- 3.4
Jansen- 3.3
Sed- 3.3
Marie (EP)- 3.25
Ashley (EP)- 3.2
Mack- 3.2
Glynne (EP)- 3.15
Logue (EP)- 3.15
Reyna (EP)- 3.15


Vivian (EP)- 2.9
Komori (EP)- 2.85
Ming- 2.8
Sarah- 2.8
Stein (EP)- 2.75
Irina (EP)- 2.6
Levatte (EP)- 2.6
Velnor (EP)- 2.6
Cooke- 2.5
Yuri (EP)- 2.4
Nena (EP)- 2.25

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Eternal Poison (Note, this is assuming equal levels, and no overlevelled equips. I will say that if it was really relevant, I don't think I'd apply equal levels. Thage and Marie might get a few extra and say...damage only, not-great at in game damage, non-buffers might lose a few. So Nena, Ares...etc)


Thage- 3.85- Low Heavy could work. Major flaw: The Pdur is about 60%, and she's marginally below average speed. Against the Fear susceptible though, it's OHKO her or die. Still, 60% Pdur (Might be above average speed with an extra level or two!)

Thage's preferred DL class (Pyrocaster) is actually above average speed (like 101%). Hellcaster is below average, though.

[Dhyerwolf]

Disallowing any equips that need someone to be over L24 throws her back down below average though (Since it tends move some of the heavy armor users to armor with notably smaller speed penalty). I believe when I looked at it, she ended up like 5 speed below average with Pyrocaster. An extra level might put her over the average, and two definitely should.

[Dhyerwolf]

Lightning- 3.45. Decent physical and magic options, limited but infinite healing works for stallers. Solid Middle
Sazh- 3.65. Throwing on a Damage Buffer+Haste+Defensive Buffer is very effective slugfestwise at times. Extra little gain for ability to semi-quick cast Haste or a defensive buff I suppose. Could be underrating the buff strategy
Vanille- 3.85. Healing is good and she can wrack up nasty damage on turn 2.5. Ability to full shut off enemy magic or physicals turn 1 feels like not a Middle
Fang- 4.15. Nasty Debuffing+Best Damage. Slow+Deprotect or Fain or Fog turn 1
Snow- 3.85. That stall strategy is nasty (potentially...depending on the speed)
Hope- 3.45. Has Sazh's Buffing Game complemented by healing! But also half the base damage, no physical to speak of, and a solid chunk less of starting HP. As with Sazh, I could be underrating the buff strategy

Number Log
Fang- 4.15
Snow- 3.85
Thage- 3.85
Vanille- 3.85
Olifen- 3.75

Ares (EP)- 3.65
Sazh- 3.65
Tolten- 3.65
Kaim- 3.6
Seth- 3.5
Raki (EP)- 3.5
Hope- 3.45
Lightning- 3.45
Alexei (EP)- 3.4
Retica (EP)- 3.4
Jansen- 3.3
Sed- 3.3
Marie (EP)- 3.25
Ashley (EP)- 3.2
Mack- 3.2
Glynne (EP)- 3.15
Logue (EP)- 3.15
Reyna (EP)- 3.15


Vivian (EP)- 2.9
Komori (EP)- 2.85
Ming- 2.8
Sarah- 2.8
Stein (EP)- 2.75
Irina (EP)- 2.6
Levatte (EP)- 2.6
Velnor (EP)- 2.6
Cooke- 2.5
Yuri (EP)- 2.4
Nena (EP)- 2.25

[Dhyerwolf]

Grandia 3 Main PCs
Yuki- 3.9. Flash is notably better than Shadow Warrior at ensuring Yuki doesn't get hit. No real change. Spoil or die generally, but still has a 2HKO ITE damage.

Ulf- 4.2. Notable drop since I don't give Dynamite Rush much respect. Shadow Warrior is okay...but if he's going Shadow Warrior+Physical, my gut is that someone will get through eventually (Will not work versus say...Claude and Ripper Blast. Guess ARPG people with healing might be the ones he dislikes, but those are rare).

Alfina- 3.65. Ouch, that's a drop. Basically, hopes to 2HKO with Armaggedeon+Meteor Strike via doubling after the Speed drop. Can't deal with good Earth resistance. Technically her versus Eileen, which happened this season...ugh. Alfina wastes a lot of SP trying to tie down with Paralysis, which is rendered irrelevant by the fact that she has issues damaging Eileen. Hard to see her in Heavy now. Too many gaps.

Dahna- 2.9. Goal is unleashing 3HKO (Over 6 turns, but those last 5 turns average 175% speed) damage while tying enemy up in status. Silence is nice for those it applies to. Confuse won't keep people fully locked down, but at least takes out every other turn. Burnstrike has a nice delay effect on enemies. Suspect durability feels like it keeps her in Light, but versatile strategies makes her great there.

[Dark Holy Elf]

This feels as good a place as any to discuss FF13 rankings!

Lightning- 3.45. Decent physical and magic options, limited but infinite healing works for stallers. Solid Middle
Sazh- 3.65. Throwing on a Damage Buffer+Haste+Defensive Buffer is very effective slugfestwise at times. Extra little gain for ability to semi-quick cast Haste or a defensive buff I suppose. Could be underrating the buff strategy
Vanille- 3.85. Healing is good and she can wrack up nasty damage on turn 2.5. Ability to full shut off enemy magic or physicals turn 1 feels like not a Middle
Fang- 4.15. Nasty Debuffing+Best Damage. Slow+Deprotect or Fain or Fog turn 1
Snow- 3.85. That stall strategy is nasty (potentially...depending on the speed)
Hope- 3.45. Has Sazh's Buffing Game complemented by healing! But also half the base damage, no physical to speak of, and a solid chunk less of starting HP. As with Sazh, I could be underrating the buff strategy

Lightning - Yeah, it's been said. Middle of some sort. On reflection she is stunningly similar to Snow, weirdly (see below). Has her own ups (better magic damage) and downs (less HP for quick slugfests).

Sazh - I dunno, his base damage is poor, which certainly hurts his slugging potential (and Brave isn't that amazing at only +40%). Buffs... aren't nearly as good in the DL as in-game (Haste is only a 27% boost unless it also speeds up animtion times, which I haven't noticed) because of the way shorter battles. Even against a pure average dueller with only one damage type who goes after him, for instance, Sazh needs 5 turns to win which come about as fast as the average dueller's four. He 4HKOs, and makes average duellers (low) 4HKO unless they're elemental. This is a problem. Light/Middle, wanted Medic so badly.

Vanille - Healing is good, but not full (72% at best, gets slightly worse the higher her HP is). Fog and Pain... yeah, good stuff there. She can't really -blitz- but she can set up 2HKOs with Deshell or just wait for Death if she needs to stall. Status-immune Heavies probably heal-lock her on average, though. Still, no question that's where she belongs. Heavy.

Fang - Pretty clearly the cast-best dueller I think? 2HKOs to start with (Deprotect + Slow generally lets her smash everyone), has Fog+Pain. MEDIGUARD STALL exists but I really doubt it works much in Heavy. Not sure about that Godlike hype, but could be underestimating her in practice. High Heavy at worst though.

Snow - MEDIGUARD STALL. 20% regen and multiples damage received by 56% (the enemy just attacks while his ATB gauge refills), on top of his 1.25 durability. However, Mediguard is such a slow action (at least 2.5 seconds, which makes a Snow round take over 2x as long as average) they most duellers can chip in one turn at 20% damage too. So... anyone with infinite >33% damage overwhelms this strategy. Lots of Light lacks that at least! Plenty of Middles and some Heavies too. And even if he's forced into pure slugging... there's worse than "3HKO average and don't get 3HKOed by them". Feels better than Sazh certainly, but not sure exactly where he ends up though. Middle.

Hope - Unlike Sazh, Hope actually -can- fight long battles of the type seen in FF13, so he's much better off. Haste+Protect/Shell then dig in. Of course, Protect/Shell doesn't get him much above average, but he's still ultimately a better healer than Vanille is, and can keep piling on more buffs during doubleturns. Bar spells also help his game, letting him tank elemental attacks Shell wouldn't be enough against. Lacks a good way to put people away like the saboteurs but the best of the stallers, Middle/Heavy.


EDIT: The above assumes no skills from secondary roles (Aside from Attack/Ruin). However, I'm not by any means certain I don't allow any, still deciding. If I do, looks like a few people definitely get a bit better.

[Dhyerwolf]

Brigandine. Phear the power. Not sure anyone rises even above average Middle thanks to the joy of elemental reliance.

Cai: 2.9. A slow 2HKO, or try to Heal-Counter (Which is not greatly effective, but doesn't really get him doubled, and let's him do about a little more than PC HP before running out of gas, especially since he can finish with a spell at no speed hit), and a fairly solid Silence spell. Flaw is that anyone a bit good at physical slugging is pretty going to take him out (Minus if silence hits them...but still doesn't feel like a Middle)
Cador: 3.15. Solid durability and speed. He gets...one Curse! Which is limited, but has uses, but still just a kind of there slugger. Easily stymied by 2 elemental resistances.
Dryst: 3.3. Cador (More PDur, less Mdur) but with some actual MP. Now can almost kill with Magic, meaning he deals with SR a tad better. Power is solid too (Power turn 1, Counter, Kill Turn 2)
Lance: 3.15. A level of redundancy! Doesn't have Dryst's stats and is slower, but Heal+Counter strategy is not bad and gives him an extra edge.
Lyonesse- 2.9. Worse stats than Cai, but a much better status.
Vaynard- 3.2. Stats and MP. Sure, marginally above Lance
Zemeckis- 3.3. Nasty archer type. Devour the SR fighters, is otherwise a solid fast sluggers (And redundancy! Including with the elemental reliance with makes me lower his score)

Escalados- 3.2. Fast, tanky, decent damage. Low but not horrible Middle.
Dinadin- 3.2. Doesn't have the magic damage like Lance, but better durability+speed makes him come in range at least.
Loufal- 2.65
Paternus- 3.05. Borderline? Status isn't as accurate as Lyonesse, but hordes more HP.
Bilcock- 2.75.
Bagdemagdus- 3.2. Cador + (At least...+HP)
Meltorfas- 2.65
Isfas- 3.2
Batercus- 3.2
Gish- 2.65. Oof. The slow 2HKO with the bad durability. Works in game, less DL. At least his durability is okay for a mage.
Zerafin- 2.3
Morholt- 2.4
Shiraha- 3.3. HP+Evade+Low, low turn 2 fatal status of 2 types. Sure.
Esmeree- 3.05. Paternus with tad less durability
Filo- 2.5. A test in how good using only the Heal strategy is! Probably beats the pure damage mages, although Filo is decently durable for the type, so that helps.
Lecarra- 2.85. Lyonesse switching elements and worse status accuracy (but still turn 1)
Millia- 2.6. Loses the damage option.
Millet- 2.6. Loses the Healing option.
Iria- 3.45.
Brangien- 3.3. Shiraha with much less durability, but the range option!
Merriot- 3.2. Brangien without the evasion.

Bahamut- 3.2
Bronze Golem- 2.5
Dao Class- 2.6
Death Needle- 2.25
Fairy- 1. Wants GE so badly. Too bad, because the evade+occasional evil counters count be potent if there was just some base that didn't suck.
Fafnir- 2.95. Would be Middle if wasn't for elements
Fenrir- 2.75
High Centuar- 2.75
Holygriff- 2.9
Lizard Guard- 2.65
Maneater- 2.8
Nightmare- 2.35
Pegasus- 3.0
Phoenix- 2.95
Poseidon- 2.65
Salamander- 2.95
Satan- 2.65
Seraph- 3.2
Tiamat- 3
Titan- 2.75
Vampire Lord- 2.8

[Dhyerwolf]

Athos- 4.1. Well, I think I allow Nosfe now. Losses...well, deserved all plus another for Gruga. Even with allowed Nosfe counters, this doesn't feel much different. Good Heavy, but spoilable.
Bartre- 2.9. Average damage, decent concrete durability. Don't even think about evasion or status resistance. (Compared to
Canas- 3.45. Pdur is solid, and he can deal well with pure SR fighters, especially with Nosfe. Mdur+the Anima evasion is also quite cool.
Dart- 3.3. Um, should have no DL wins for sure. Overhyped doubler case case. Damage is a solid 2HKO, but Sara easily outslug and that doesn't kill Ana in a hit.
Dorcas- 2.6. Bartre with less everything.
**Boot bait. Don't need him and Bartre, and I'd take the one who is notably better.
Eliwood- 2.55. Below average at everything. Hates late promotion, hard to see better than Dorcas.
Erk- 3.05. Low low Middle Basically good against SR fighters, but nothing special at all.
**Comparable to Lute, who I would rank a bit lower now.
Fiora- 3.4. Sword Evasion is cool, mildly whatever beyond that. But Beowulf? Really?
**Boot bait. No plot and pretty much mehish all around
Florina- 3.8. Evasion! Her only real stat, but it's an effective one. Enough for Heavy? Feels borderline thanks to flaws
**Comparable to...well, not Tana! That's a whole division split
Guy- 3.8. Hmm, few trades with Florina. Better Pdur, worse Mdur, no weakness, but his one advantage is lost against Lances. No Range. Feels even.
**Very even to Joshua in most ways.
Hawkeye- 3.0. Bartre with Mdur. Since...yeah, averaging evasion into status, that's not so impressive. But borderline!
Heath- 3.05. Some sword evade is all the keeps him over Hawkeye (And that Mdur is so much worse...and weaknesses). Not really impressive.
Hector- 3.85. Pdur and a low 2HKO. Option of making that Pdur crazy with Armads is good enough for low Heavy, although he probably loses to average single mage or statuser in the division
Isadora- 2.85. Can deal with some fighters thanks to evade, but dull/plotless/weak/too many of her class...etc
**Super boot bait. Realized I hadn't given her a number when I realized that there needed to be another Paladin I would boot.
Jaffar- 3.2. General DL path is about right. Evade is a general cute thing but his isn't so high, so most Middle's don't have issues. Anti Healing helps.
**Boot bait. Eh here, but Nino is horrible and that's his big plot tie. Indifference to a degree.
Kent- 3.25 Paladins tend to be underhyped. 50% Evasion to lots of physical types, some range. Not loving magic I guess.
**FE 8 Pallys are better since they have about 70% Evasion to physical types, and that split feels notable.
Legault- 3.8. Seeing FE evade get nearly everything makes him quite durable. But damage blows! Still, that's like 3 effective durability!
**Boot bait. He's not bad, but eh. Not that unique a build (Marisa-), and relatively Light on everything hing else.
Louise- 3.05. Evade is just enough for Middle.
**Boot bait.
Lowen- 3.05. Defense+Physical Evasion. Mages blow right past him, but a lot for Light. Actually okay with him as a rank, he's kind of unique.
Lucius- 2.75. He can 2HKO some undurable fighters or 3HKO some slower ones. They do need to be slower or non-durable though! And not block Holy.
**Artur with more damage. Has the bad FE mage build DLwise.
Lyn- 4.15. Legault with more damage
Marcus- 2.4. Well, not all paladins are underhyped.
**Boot bait. Just horrible on a superoverrepresented calss.
Matthew- 3.7. Legault minus some defenses. Enough to barely keep him on the other side
Nino- 1.
**BOOT BAIT X 100. 50% PDur! 5HKOs!
Oswin- 3.2.
Pent- 3.15.
Priscilla. 2.9. May have less damage than Lucius, but that evasion is worth so much more.
Rath- 3.15. I might keep him in for in game use (And hey, then it's 2 of 4 archers), although he doesn't really have anything objective recommending him.
Raven- 3.3
Rebecca- 3.75. That level of evasion is clearly something I find impressive, but little less Pdur than she wants solidly.
Renault- 2.5. Hey, doesn't compare as badly to Lucius as one might think...
Sain- 3.5. 2HKO! Physical Evasion.
Serra- 3.5. Evasion!
**When I ranked FE 8 I thought L'Arachel might be better, but Serra has more evasion. So second best FE DL mage minus if Ewan was ranked.
Vaida- 3. Spear might be enough to get borderline since it makes her the only physical counterer worth much to me.
Wil- 2.9
**Boot bait.

[Dark Holy Elf]

I'd disagree about Marcus being boot-bait. He has a fair bit of plot and is probably the most-talked about unit from the game that I've seen, certainly once you exclude the lords and a few real fan favourites. Yeah, he's pretty mediocre, but that's pretty evident and he manages to have competitive matches in Light, which seems fine to me.

I pretty much agree with most everything else you said, minus weapon triangle respect (I either half its effectiveness against non-FE opponents, or only see it working on offense... not sure which). Well, not sure about Serra as 3.5 either, her evade isn't -that- great (especially if she uses anything heavier than Light) and her damage is really bad.

[Dhyerwolf]

I think I halve weapon triangle effects, but the half just happens to be the defensive side (I don't suppose I really have a reason, just gut reaction). Either other view does make it pretty marginal (halving both effects. At least to me, since I doubt that gets the evade to the point it matters). I guess it also gave a few people a unique method of standing out, which is always a boon (Especially because the games really need it to me!).

49% Evade is pretty solid since FE's evade is so inclusive (I see maybe Swift and maybe some FF 6 stuff keeping ITE properties against in the DL, but almost nothing else that I can think of), although I may have ranked a bit high there. I was going somewhat off gut reactions at that point, but I have a lot of respect for the high end evade. Great Mdef helps against mages, evasion+Counters against lots of physical fighters.

Marcus is the most talked about. I'm...surprised there. I wouldn't say that he has competitive matches in Light. 0-4 (in fairness, one of those was Flonne, where he should win. It should say something though that he's 0-4 and the only one I would change is Flonne).

[Dark Holy Elf]

Marcus vs. Milich is competetive, Garet/Peco are two of the better Lights and obviously out of his league. I think I'm just less bothered by ranking people below 2.5 than you are. <.<

Also, don't see what's so upsetting about Beowulf vs. Fiora. Beo's status checks both MDef and evasion, Fiora has both (though admittedly, not amazing at the latter). Just eying your own numbers, her res reduces Sleep (the status he'd be using here) to 37%, and then her evasion which you list as 23% drops that to 28.49%. I'm sure there are some scalings of status, shield blocking, other variables, etc., which would let Beowulf win but it doesn't take any remote stretches to see otherwise!

[Dhyerwolf]

Yeah, I just really don't like anyone who falls below 2.4 (Unless they are just crazy skewed for stats). But weak and basically below average at everything is the recipe for seasons of endless Light boredom.

EFiora...3HKOs normally, 4HKOs against Beowulf's HP, at best will 5HKO throwing in evade (And hey, she wants evasion, she wants swords, so don't even need to worry about extra acc). Stacking her RES as subtractive and evasion as divisive, she pushes Paralysis to turn 3 and Stone to turn 4. Beowulf is 85% speed, so he's 7-6ed by average (Fiora). So yeah, this view is pretty much taking the realistic worst to me (for Beowulf, since it's taking the status resistance based on his game. Based on her game, he looks at turn 3 fatal status instead), and she still loses.