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Author Topic: Division Rankings rambling.  (Read 51296 times)

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Division Rankings rambling.
« Reply #25 on: January 16, 2012, 09:22:49 PM »
Beowulf's HP is only good if he can win quickly (which he can't here), otherwise he needs to equip a robe for MP (or use turns on Aspil I guess, but he doesn't have those). Paralysis isn't even worth bringing up since it lasts for less than two Beowulf turns, so yeah, it's all about stone here probably (my bad for bringing up sleep, it's better due to duration but still not worth it).

That said, even if you do end up siding with Beowulf, I more object to the "Really?" you threw into the comment there. Should not be even remotely hard to see how Fiora wins, particularly to people who factor in defender's speed into FE PC offence (e.g. I'd be surprised if she doesn't 3-round by my scaling).

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Dhyerwolf

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Re: Division Rankings rambling.
« Reply #26 on: January 18, 2012, 09:45:28 AM »
I'll admit, probably an overreaction due to several hours of straight number crunching, finding Beowulf very cool, finding Fiora very dull in the DL (even within the FE context. Redoing the topics I at least find that I find some people more interesting because I can find niches for them that weren't strongly advertised before, but Fiora is just kind of a lackluster variant of several others), finding Fiora dull period, and seeing it as a pretty clear victory for Beowulf! Flip is I didn't realize how quickly he can veer into MP woes, so I was wrong on that part at least.

Also, factoring in defender speed doesn't change anything here since Fiora already has a 100% double rate (I'm still iffy on where I fall there, but only matters for her potentially against speedsters unless you want to have that check evade).
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superaielman

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Re: Division Rankings rambling.
« Reply #27 on: February 09, 2012, 04:05:13 PM »
FF13 cast ratings!

Light- 3.3. She's a pretty average middle. She doesn't 2HKO average, her healing is less than half and her durability is unremarkable. The tricks do add up to be enough to keep her afloat in the division though.
Sazh- 2.7. Bad. Below average damage (As a COMMANDO. Wow.), buffs that aren't very good, and no healing.
Vanille- 4.1. She can spoil certain bosses and slug down low heavies, but for the most part she lives and dies on her status.
Fang- 4.3. Very good high heavy, mixes status and damage and some commando tanking. Can't handle most heavy bosses, which keeps her in check in the division.  PC's rarely beat her in Heavy unless they are evasion whores or status immune blitzers.
Snow- 3.8. Can stall and spoil enough to float in lower heavy. Really wishes he had a little more damage for blitzing though.
Hope- 3.5. Good Middle and nothing else. The HP keeps him in check.

The After Years! Using the assumption here that Lurker used in his topic with some modifications. (Don't think I'd vote that way if it was up for serious ranking, but this works for theorycrafting). I didn't allow the rares (Ribbon/Crystal Ring/Assassin dagger) that the entire cast wanted.

Ceodore: 4.2. Surprisingly good for someone with poor base damage. Blink+reflect shuts down a lot of fighters, and he can haste/awaken to take out healers. Plus he has the usual Paladin status defense.
Cecil: 3.5. Status immune, durable, above average speed! Just has literally no other tricks to his name. His damage isn't especially great either.
Rosa: 4.3. Roughly the same as her FF4 form for me.  She's a little frailer and a little slower, but that's it.
Kain: 4.1. Really wishes he had Curaga. Haste and Hold are good, general tankiness is excellent.  Jump has the usual problems, but it makes for a good finisher/way to avoid damage.
Rydia: 4.2. Like Rosa, she isn't changed that much between forms. She's a hair more durable now, spells are a little slower.  It balances.
Edge: 4.2.  He gains a little durability and some damage- he just 2HKOs with Fumas now. He can outslug bad heavy bosses now too.

Cid: 2.2.  Oh my god. >_<  He was slow enough in FF4, and TAY made it worse. His durability's worse now! Damage is better, but not by enough to matter.  He'll outslug some bad fighters and elementally reliant mages, but that's it.
Yang: 3.8. Remix of his PSP form. He trades some durability and speed (still excellent in both) for damage.
Palom: 3.7. He's slower now! But whoof, he gained some durability, which is a winning tradeoff in his case.  Damage and status are still crazy good for the division.
Porom: 3.7. See Palom. She's still heal locked by average damage which hurts, but... yeah. She likes shiny stat boosts.
Edward: 2.1. (Tenatively don't allow the item healing, 2.7 with it). Damage is miserable and he's lost a lot of speed from his 4a form.  He can uh try using BARDSONG!??!?! That's not a bad idea persay, even random status is less sad than his awful damage.
Luca: 2.5.  Slow 3HKO. Durability should win her some fights at least.

Ursula:  3.4. Godly speed, average durability and meh damage. Wins most of her fights by going first and statusing out foes.  That's still enough to carry her into Middle.
Leonora- 3.4. Porom-. She gets eaten alive by an average FE fighter and most bosses, but beats the hell out of those who can't kill he fast.
Gekkou- 3.6. Weird fighter. Durable, 2HKOs thanks to throw, but below average speed and has no status. This works.
Zangestu- 2.8. Blitz is okay damage and and he has some unreliable status to back it up.
Izayoi: 2.7. Has enough status to stay afloat in light. Healing lets her outslug worst of the ID immune.
Tsukinowa: 2.9. Light is mage heavy enough to make his Mirage/Image strategy work. He can't really beat mages or those with ITD.
Harley: 1.5. *Flush* Rule of Makalov applies here. I bet she was secretly godlike in FF4, but sex with edward crippled her.
Golbez: 3.5. Slowish 2HKO, but on the durable side which helps. Wishes he had some status attacks.
Calca: 1.2. Has literally nothing.
Brina: 1.2. See Calca.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2012, 04:09:48 PM by superaielman »
"Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself"- Count Aral Vorkosigan, A Civil Campaign
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Dhyerwolf

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Re: Division Rankings rambling.
« Reply #28 on: December 10, 2012, 12:45:35 AM »
Topic resurrect! Large one too!

Fire Emblem X
Most of my general offbeat FE views are found in my topic. Big major differences are counter allowances, evade scaling and now with FE 10, laguz scaling (Most of them are Middles to me instead of punies!)

Random questions I have left:
--Corona halves HIT not Skill. I am assuming that other occults with the same description have the same effect
--Ditto to Stun's effect being the same as Cancel/other occults with same description
--Does Pavise just get damage (meaning worthless against pure magic status in game?)

IKE- Decent 2HKO, decent ranged back up. Option for great physical tanking. Pavise...hmm, well, yeah, I'll go with it (Nihil is awesome for Ike in game for some of the best enemies; DL wise it is barely nothing. Not allowing Authority and he's the only one who has a legit claim at endgame, so...sure Pavise will just be a durability catch all). 4.35.
MIST- 2.75. An okay Light now. Still has Pdur woes, but a much better improvement.
ELINCIA- 4.2. Loses a lot of evade without Authority (which yeah, alone, and her authority is gone after C2 in game). Still backs a hell of a punch with some evade. Good Heavy; Really strong physicals may get her in a turn, but she eats things otherwise decentely.

MICAIAH- 3.35.  Definitely not a Light. 60% PDur, 4HKO with Draining (Heals 75% HP, and on counters heals 150%). Hates 1-2 ranged fighters, but gets a lot of the DL. Too much for Light. Opening Recover doesn't matter as much for her.
LAURA- 3.15. 55% Pdur and horrible damage. But hey, Sleep is awesome. The way that works,  she has really needs to take a hit, so...hmm, so horrible in game, but low Middle works. Not usually getting KOed in Light->Sleep smackdown.
OLIVER- 2.5. This is how you make Nosferatu fail.
RHYS- 2.15. Hates that he's the one person of his class that does not get an awesome weapon. Obviously so much worse on technicalities than FE 9. Opening turn 1 with Recover might net a few wins.
ILYANA- 2.9. 32% Damage, 75% PDur, Decent Mdur. Good Light with range counters. (Improvement over FE 9 due to PDur increase)
SOREN- 3.35. Best damage for the mages. Fighters eat a counter and an attack and die turn 1 on average to me. (Improvement over FE 9. Damage went down, Pdur went way up)
CALILL- 3.3 (More dependant on that SS weapon though!)
TORMOD- 2. Ugh. Doesn't even get the mage spoiling. (Hey look, not improved over FE 9!)
SANAKI- 2.5. Man, two special items and still horrible.
BASTIAN- 2.95. Pretty much Ilyana (Tad better overall, but yeah)

EDWARD- 3.35 Solid killing options, range for fighters. 55% Damage, 45%ish with range 2 option, Wrath below 25% HP, Concrete durability not hot with some moderate evade.
LUCIA-  2.8. Good (but not that good damage), everything else is subpar. Once again, the unimpressive SM. (No clue versus FE 9. Much better Mdur, but less relative evade)
MIA- 3.5. Damage is good and still has a bit of evade, but the evade may not be enough to average in time on average. I think being weak to being status keeps her firmly in Middle. Compared to FE 9: Better damage, concrete durability. Worse Vantage and Evade. Losing trade overall.
STEFAN- 3.8. Mia with more damage and concrete durability and less evade. Scrapes Heavy
ZIHARK- 3.35. Mia with less concrete durability and evade. Hits harder than Edward but everything else is worse.

LEONARDO- 2.4. Still sucks at damage even with that +5 Speed. All other stats pretty much suck too. Hopes to status with about 35% chance, which I guess I won't be respecting too much.
ROLF- 3.5. Good damage, durability stats are decent.
SHINON- 3.65. Rolf with a tad less damage, but notably more durability

SOTHE- 2.8. 73% Durability, 26% Damage but basically can get complete at range 2. Definitely not enough for Middle, but range counters can get some wins in Light.
HEATHER- 2.8. Good Light. Damage is not hot, but evade+2 range does decent things.
VOLKE- 3.25. 3HKO, less evade than FE 9, but gains range 2 option that is not bad.

NOLAN- 3.1. Low Middle. Okay damage, passable range 2 option. A bit whatever.
BOYD- 3.35. Decent damage that can get a low 2HKO, good Pdur (not so much Mdur though)
ARAN- 2.2. Or something.
NEPHENEE- 3.4. Nolan with better durability overall (notably enough to make a difference). Wrath being worse and my being harsher on crits than I was when I did FE 9 hurts her a lot.
MEG- 2.5. Whatever.
BROM- 3.3. Decent Physical Tanking
TAURONEO- 3.45. Least durability of the class, but most damage and Resolve effectively increases that.
DANVED- 3.25. Whatever.

JILL- Borderline 2HKO, 20% Stun, Durability average to bad. 3.2. Low-Mid Middle works.
HAAR- 3.35. Similar to Jill damage wise, pdur is a lot better though (enough to play a decent Middle physical spoiler). Oh hey, Stun is a lot better too (36% overall)
MARCIA-2.9. Horrible downgrade. Averagish overall with a few weaknesses.
TANITH- 3. Marcia with tad better stats...minus HP.
SIGRUN- 2.65

FIONA- 2.9. Damage sucks, but 35% Regen in Light is very potent as much of the damage struggles to do that much damage. Throw in healing from Sol and yeah. Stupidly good skill translation
ASTRID- 2.3
GEOFFREY- 2.75. Really needs to not come in late. Subpar.
KIERAN- 3.2. Gets Fiona's skill off much better stats. Works as low Middle.
MALAKOV- 3.15. Comes out averagish
TITANIA- 3.3. Averagish stats with borderline 2HKO damage and Counter is not horrible.
OSCAR- 3.05. Ehhh. I guess he's kind of in the middle for the class. Solid stats, but no skills of note.
RENNING- 3.15. Decent concrete durability for hte class.

On Laguz: I allow them to start at 15 energy (transformed) with one section of Olivi Grass (They can also counter then by how I view counters). In effect, they attack for a turn or two (
VOLUG- 2 guaranteed turns basically with a low 2HKO, and decent enough durability. 3.35.
NAILAH- 4.75. Smash, tank, evade. Effectively over 2 PC HP to both durabilities with FE evade. Goes down quick to Rubicant.
MUARIM- 4-5 turns to kill, which he does not on average. Pdur though allows him to buy some extra turns versus physicals. He can get average fighters, maybe...2.76. Hard to gauge.
LETHE- Cat gauges suck. Guaranteed 1 attack, 2 against slower people. Can of course kite along with Olivi Gass (Which I guess works against fellow 1R people. Just use for 8 turns at gain of 6 energy). 2HKOs with solid durability. 3.05.
MORDECAI- 3HKOs, but that transformed PDur. 3.3. Beats fighters, loses to mages
CAINEGHIS- 4.55. Best royal in game at the end I would say, but evasion here is not enough to matter. As is, giant durability hole that Nailah/Tibarn/Naesala cover. However, sick damage and endless Pdur. So...yeah, I think Brahms is a Godlike, so this (of course...I guess Brahms is also status immune...)
SKRIMIR- 3.6. Great damage (65% area), Great Pdur, Limit for more smash. Great Middle here.
RANULF- 3.2. Damage, above average general durability. Cat gauges suck though. Can grab occassional OHKOs, 2HKOs for slowly and kite versus 1 range.
KYZA- 3.05. Eh, doesn't have the PDur tanking of some other Tigers, but better damage.
LYRE- 3. Lethe minus durability. Not that either really win because of durability.

VIKA- 2.8. Well, 39% evasion. Everything else sucks, though.
NEALUCHI- 3.4. Damage is at least nearing damage, 52% evasion!! Wrath is neat too. Heavy and not a bad form with formshift, but hey, awesome for what he is.
ULKI- 3.65. Nealuchi + Damage + A hint more of evade.
JANAFF- 3.2. More damage, less evade. Horrible trade. Still that damage is good.
TIBARN- 5. Evade, and then an Evade skill, and also a lot of damage and just concrete durability.
NAESALA- 4.9. Tibarn with in practice less evade.

ENA- 2. DAT strength.
KURTHNAGA- 3.2. Interested middle. HP and defenses make him a solid tank. His damage sucks, but counters short range. Works overall (needed to join with more levels!)
NASIR- 2.65. Pdur fail. Gets some physical lights (slower, 1R) and eats mages pretty well.
GARETH- 3.3. Phys spoiler

Bosses that are worth caring about
Zelgius- Grah headache. I guess I would take him against Ike alone (aka: Eclipse is not a thing) standing on a panel. So...Zelgius has 2.5 PC HP, cuts physicals greatly, is range 1-2, but has like 24.5% damage. Nasty tank, bad damage. Oh, effectively status immune to me (anything Ike could do with status is Nihiled, out of staff range). So...4.55. Feels like a lot for Heavy. Even with just 3 Mdur, regen healing 20% of his HP a turn is a lot.
Dhesignea- Cuts 40% off physicals and magic...after cutting like 20% off the top (the DL effect of Nihil to me) and additionally some more for AS. So OHKO damage is halved, etc...HP would probably be taken against 2 PCs. My gut is after all the in game boons...65% HP range.
Sephiran- Well, half the HP of Dheggy (raw though). Gut is...40%ish area after adjustments. Translates to needing about 90% damage to OHKO him to me, and you better OHKO him. Also, that range (Could read as getting initiative on damage). 4.55 feels like again. Reems Heavy (are a few people who can OHKO him there, but yeah). Not great in Godlike. He is like a crazed version of VP 2 Alicia.
Ashera- 5. Durability is a bit nebulous for me. PC HP area, eaten by some MT (still that evade and defenses and regen, so MT is just a footrace).
...into the nightfall.

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Division Rankings rambling.
« Reply #29 on: December 10, 2012, 01:00:09 AM »
Quote
--Does Pavise just get damage (meaning worthless against pure magic status in game?)

Correct. It only works against things evade does (so not status staves, not boulders, etc.).

You forgot a rank for Dheginsea.

Sleep feels very not legal to me! Only three shots a game = no thanks. I wouldn't allow it even if it were unique to Laura, but of course in-game you also have to deal with like ten other PCs competing for it. It all adds up to a really bad idea IMO.

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SnowFire

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Re: Division Rankings rambling.
« Reply #30 on: March 16, 2013, 08:53:16 PM »
Since this is bizarrely the place that people ramble about Fire Emblem rankings...  some FEA thoughts, using Dark Holy Elf's topic with Brave weaponry.

Disclaimers: I allow promotion switching on a battle-by-battle basis (Cherche is a better spoiler, and Vaike can go for Sol hype when Counter is out?  Fairly minor point, though.).  Also, I treat Counter (the skill) literally rather than scaling the damage against the slightly-too-high-for-ingame damage average; so hit Vaike with .60 PCHP damage at close range, eat .60 PCHP damage yourself (rather than ~.40 or whatever).  I'd probably be tempted to assume incoming damage of "DL average" for calculating durability rather than based on the last enemies, but the difference is incredibly minor (Elf claims it's actually .46 rather than .40, so practically irrelevant).

High Heavy Lucina
Low Heavy Vaike, Sumia, Lon'qu, Gaius, Cordelia, Say'ri, Tiki, Basilio
High Middle Chrom, Robin (w/ Asset & Flaw rotation), Cherche, Flavia
Low Middle Robin (neutral or average of all assets & flaws), Sully, Kellam, Panne, Gregor, Tharja, Anna
High Light Lissa, Virion, Stahl, Miriel, Nowi, Henry
Low Light Frederick, Ricken, Maribelle, Libra
Puny Olivia
DNR Donnel, kids.

Bosses: Gangrel is a High Heavy.  Walhart is a Low Heavy.  Cervantes is a Low Middle.  Aversa is uh Low Middle or something (I can't really respect her HP, so even if she's doubling she still has last strike + oops I just got OHKO'd.)  Meh to Excellus or Validar, don't care.

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Division Rankings rambling.
« Reply #31 on: March 16, 2013, 10:42:17 PM »
Those look mostly right to me. I think you're underrating the dark mages a tad and would kneejerk bump both of them up a notch (Nosferatu and Ruin both steal some matches, Tomebreaker is great, etc.). I also definitely take Counter against the damage average so it's a bit less effective (hype for the "too high" damage average for it doesn't really fly to me, it's a lategame skill itself), though not sure how many matches that would swing.

The main difference, if you take 0.4 instead of the in-game 0.45, is that the tanky characters get even tankier (and vice versa). It will have a particularly pronounced effect on Tiki and Nowi who really want you to do this. For instance, Tiki's durabilities go from 3.16/3.56 to 3.95/4.68. If you're interested I'll c/p the entire durability list that way.

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Pyro

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Re: Division Rankings rambling.
« Reply #32 on: March 23, 2013, 12:36:40 AM »
Games played recently

Ni No Kuni:
Oliver: Heavy. The damage (an OHKO) is too high. Besides that he has full healing which never hurts, and is not frail.

Marcus: High Middle. That delay affect is simply awesome with the speed he brings to bear. And full healing never hurts.

Esther: Light. Damage? Durability? What are these things? Healing can keep her out of puny.... maybe.

Swaine: Light. No damage, the status is highly unreliable. The physical defense saves him from really really bad physical damage dealers I suppose. Like Esther.


Also Replayed Shining Force:

Bowie: High Middle. 2HKO damage and crazy durability. Average speed is better than slow.

Sarah: Middle. Does solid 3HKO damage either physical or magical and has healing.

Peter: Middle. A very impressive 2HKO along with excellent durability, and average speed winning tiebreaks.

Lemon: Middle/Light. Is nothing more than a physical attacker with unimpressive damage and decent durability.

Cameela: Low Middle. She has damage I suppose but no durability to speak of. Will be one-rounded by most of Middle and isn't liable to KO them.

Geshp: Middle/Heavy. Freeze 4 almost OHKOs, is gamebest ranged, and Geshp gets two actions with it. The fact that he will be splattered like a bug by anything that goes before him is a concern for him however.

Odd Eye: Middle/Heavy. Solid enough damage, but still frail. Can't say I saw the Sleep hit much if at all.

Zeon: Heavy. Loses first-strike, but one-rounds, is status immune, and is durable enough to take a few round( you can only use one ground melee against him, which makes him tankier in practice, and 500 HP is somewhere around PCHP+ like that). Probably over-hated.

Jo'ou Ranbu

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Re: Division Rankings rambling.
« Reply #33 on: April 15, 2013, 02:35:21 AM »
FE13 rankings now that I beat it!

The Self-Insert Who Shagged Me Robin - Speed+/Luck -. Okay, so Robin gets decent damage, a 4HKO magical offense backup, counters and Ignis. Pretty typical middle-end FE slugging package, hitting both defenses aside (which is actually a nice perk when you're countering with it). Decent enough speed to double the sluggish, too. High Middle, I guess.

Mr. Foot Into Mouth Chrom - Misses the 2HKO by a hair, but on average, due to higher trigger rate on Aether, he should manage a two-rounding. Aether, unlike in-game, doesn't help his durability much, but the offensive push is appreciated. Plus, he can do some limited counter-healing stalling. High Middle works - maybe even the borderline. But he honestly needed better stats to go any further.

Pyromania Is Healthy Frederick - Low Light. Oh wow, those stats. Frederick is amazing enough to get doubled by -Bartre- (who also one-rounds him while at it because why the fuck not). To make matters worse, he doesn't even get a gimmick like the War Clerics (hahahaha luna as a slugfest-tilting move). Beats the likes of FF5 Thief maybe and not much else.

Doodles On Strategy Books Lissa - Low Light. The clerics are unquestionably horrible. As a Sage, Lissa's durability is -awful-, but she still scrapes a 3HKO - on the other hand, mimicking Ilyana stats for your slugfesting needs is just about the worst idea you could possibly have. May as well stick to Renewal cheese in order to have a shot against the Shadies of the world, even though that gets mitigated by the shit speed more often than not.

The Woman To End All Men Sully - 3HKOs, marginally above average durability both ways, some weapon triangle manipulation being viable due to As on both Swords and Lances. Not exciting, but some shade of Middle.

Incompetent Girlscout Stahl - Actually 2HKOs average! Weapon triangle manipulation! And tanky! Too bad about the crap speed. Middle, a bit worse than Sully in spite of 2HKOing. Being borderline doubled by average as a Paladin? Really? Not sure he wants Great Knight either, since that just makes him Kellam minus (actually comfortably doubled by average and the mdur turns into a shade of junk instead of averagish).

Archest Archer Virion Ruffles - His choices are interesting. Somewhat subpar melee counters that -do- add up and bow spoiling vs. marginally better durability and considerably better damage. He approaches a 2HKO as a Sniper (which means he 2HKOs a lot of lower-end losers), but as a Bow Knight, Virion Ruffles gets a few extra niches. Probably Light/Middle either way. He's likely to be -really- good in Light.

Vaike THE VAIKE - Low Heavy. I think he wants Warrior period due to the awesome melee spoiling and very solid 2HKO. Slow (as in doubled by average slow), but he can take hits and dishes it back nicely. As a Hero, Axebreaker and Sol are interesting and he still 2HKOs, but Counter is way bigger a spoiling threat. Counter+Brave Axe counter+Vaike's turn = holy crap that's a -lot- of damage, even though I scale Counter against the damage average.

Propitious Optimally Scientific Rigor Miriel - High Light. I suspect she wants Sage in spite of the egregious durability. As a Sage, she usually kills people who 2HKO her but are slower, due to 3HKOing solidly and counters, and being above average speed means she's not too terribly vulnerable to doubles. As a Dark Knight she... gets killed by people who 2HKO her but are slower, and otherwise is considerably more liable to getting doubled. More people 2HKO her by a lot, but the difference between a solid 3HKO and a 4HKO is pretty big. She oddly can 2HKO a fair deal of Lights, and needs no more than one of her turns and a counter if she goes Sage when this happens. Yeah, works. It's kinda impressive that Miriel actually scrapes average in spite of Braves existing in the curve (we all know she just wishes Celica's Gale was DL-legal, though. That'd be Waste-level offense running off her effective Mag. ALTERNATIVELY, scale my Miriel against DL-legal stats and now she's Heavy/Godlike, lulz 48 effective Magic+41 Speed+forged Celica's Gale rofl eat 1.8x PC HP a pop unless you're better than "doubles people who double average" speed).

There Is A Hole In My Heart That Can Only Be Filled With PIE Sumia - Sumia's slugfesting combo of Tana-level offense with Lutetastic durability across the board leads to a strange little package. +11.6 AS means she doubles pretty much everybody this side of WA4 bosses, so the damage gets crazy pretty fast. Against melee fighters, if she survives a hit or dodges, you're looking at upwards of 1.6x PC HP before the enemy gets a second turn, and that folds a lot of physical -tanks-, let alone lesser fighters. Against ST mages, who have to face pretty good mdur, forged Javelin counters mean they're not getting a second turn (doubled Javelin+doubled Brave Lance = 1.1x PC HP roughly) most of the time. Problem is her evade isn't that good - 37% is nice, since it means she evades turn two, but she often needs it turn one. And ITE is horrifying against her: she gets owned by Ryudo pretty horribly, for instance. Running off near-Yulie pdur in Heavy is pretty bad. Still, the weird durability split keeps her from being a terror in Heavy rather than shutting her out of the division. Not amazing, but I think she's a bit better than low Heavy in spite of the kleenex durability.

Wait Why Is This Armor Suit Walking Kellam - Godlike pdur! 2HKOs in a vaccuum! ... nearly gets doubled by people who get doubled by -average speed- and has accuracy issues. Counters keep him viable against fighters (seriously, over 3x PC HP to physicals what the -hell-), but mages fry him unless they're running off Miriel pdur. Low Middle.

DOOOOOOOOONNEEEEEEEEL Donnel - DNR. If I had to interp him, though, off to Low Light he'd go. Sub-Frederick stats will get you far, farmboy.

EEEEEEEEEEEK A GIRL Lon'qu - Hahahahaha that offense is nuts. +11 AS and 47% PC HP a swing alongside Astra? Yeah, he shreds things in a hurry if you let him get started, and Vantage has its uses if someone is unfortunate enough to land him into that range. Coinflip evade also lets him mitigate the Strawmantastic durability across the board to a degree. Heavy, definitely, and quite possibly on the high side of the division. FE13 Swordmasters are pretty much the cream of the crop in the series for cannoning.

Snow White Ricken - Eeeeeeew, 2HKOed and doubled by average as a Sage. His speed as a Dark Knight is even worse, but at least he actually takes hits a bit better... in exchange for 4HKOing. Dear god. Low Light, the last thing you want to do as a dueller is mimicking fucking Ilyana.

Bitch, I'm Fabulous Maribelle - Low Light. Speaking of mimicking Ilyana. Even worse as a Valkyrie than Lissa as a Sage, which is one hell of an accomplishment - Eruca-level pdur and 4HKO damage? You go, girl. Not that sub-Yulie durability off doubled-by-average speed and 14HKO damage as a War Cleric is any better. Renewal as a War Cleric lets her beat the truly inept, at least, and FORGED HAND AXE LETS HER BEAT JOGURT.

Whiskers Knight Panne - Game-best speed, solid to awesome evade and pdur are nice. She sucks at damage before doubles and the mdur is a little bit sketchy, but being as fast as she is lets her three-round typically and counters also help. Solid Middle.

Sweet Tooth Gaius - Gaius has to make a troublesome choice: awesome evade against better damage and Lethality. Honestly, I suspect he wants the latter: Trickster durability when things get through the evade is amazingly bad and Gaius risks having troubles against healers without Lethality, which adds up a lot better in a game where Braves are factored into the averages. Eirika-level offense is also pretty desirable in a vaccuum to boot. The evade makes quite a compelling case, though, because Gaius is hopelessly squishy on concrete no matter what. Off to Heavy either way - if he somehow could have Assassin with Lucky Seven in the DL, that'd be pretty much a ticket straight to a Heavy-champ calibur dueller, but oh well.

Writes Romantic Chrom Fanfic In Her Free Time Cordelia - She scrapes a 2HKO! She doubles average! She takes hits a lot better than Sumia! ... too bad she juuuuuuuuuust scrapes doubling average speed, which lowers her offensive potential immensely. She utterly shreds people with average speed and below, but struggles considerably more against people who are even slightly above average speed. Ends up clearly inferior as a dueller to Sumia due to that, though honestly I'm fine with this - she felt the inferior Peggie in game too. Which says more about how cool Peggies are even with the weaknesses. Low Heavy.

Gregor Is Most Fun! Gregor - Kinda slow, only decent damage and only modestly durable to physicals alongside having questionable magical durability. Axe spoiling and Sol are neat tricks at least, and it's not like he's a BAD slugger. Middle.

:japan: Nowi - That's a lot of durability and ranged counters are neat. Too bad about the crappy offense and poor speed, though. The fast can pierce through the durability given enough time and she is awful against healers. She is quite at home in a pure slugfest, though, offense woes notwithstanding, due to the sheer durability and counters. Some shade of Middle.

The Prettiest Axe-Wielding Lady Libra - Uh he takes hits better than Lissa and Maribelle and 5HKOs instead of lulzHKOs! Sub-Ricken speed dictates he languishes in Low Light regardless.

I Buy My Nightgowns In Hot Topic Tharja - Tharja is very interesting. The accuracy in a vaccuum is egregious, but it's mitigated considerably against melee fighters (and, to be quite honest, it only matters to me against people whose magical evasion -exists-, which makes it a lot less problematic) and, against mages, Tomebreaker turns her into a terror all around. Acceptable, if subpar durability both ways doesn't hurt either. And then, there are the Vengeance games that can happen, which play off Nosferatu cheese nicely. There's just a lot of ways she can steal wins from her foes - this is likely as gimmicky as a FE PC will get without bending the system into a monstrosity, and it works mostly in her favor. Fears the notably fast, but she's otherwise strangely good. Middle/Heavy, though I may be overselling her a bit.

Fantastic Unlimited Merchants Anna - 4-5HKO magical damage or 6HKO physical running off barely above average FE speed and crap durability. At least she dodges a lot and counters! Light, which is a travesty compared to her amazing in-game worth.

Makes Sylvia Look Good In-Game Olivia - Somehow, Olivia ends up a better dueller than Anna, which is just so wrong. Offense sucks and durability is junk, but she doubles average and counters, which makes her kinda decent in Light.

Sewstress Doolittle Cherche - 60 damage Brave Axe thwacks are scary, guys. Speed is pretty trashy, which leaves her vulnerable (at least she's not doubled by average), and she just sucks against magic, but spoiling swordsmen is a cool niche, she's good at tanking physicals and it's hard to argue with dat axe to the face. Low Heavy.

^_^ Henry - Dear lord the speed is horrible. On the other hand, outside that, he has Tharja's goodness off much better accuracy and considerably better durability, which keeps him viable. Hates 2HKO physicals that aren't egregiously slow with a passion (good thing he's physically durable), but otherwise is just as cheesy and interesting as Tharja. Neat Middle.

i am twelve and what is this Lucina - Hahaha, I said Lon'qu's offense was unbalanced? Let's talk about Lucina, honey. Cordelia-level base damage and speed that's just shy of doubling people who double average with a side dish of Aether+Rightful Queen -and- solid durability and evade across the board. That's pretty much OHKO-level offense whenever she doubles -before- any Aether proc chances and it just rises into gross overkill as you pile them up (if she doubles and procs Aether even once, we're looking at 131 FE13 damage. Just for fun theoretics games: Aether x4 - the maximum amount of times it can trigger in a given non-counter turn -  ekes 236 damage, something along the lines of 2.55x PC HP. If someone triggers a melee counter, that's not very far from the offense she averages counting her own turn and the counter. So, um. get wrecked?). And she can even play her dad's counter-healing game because fuck you (for whatever good it'll do in the higher divisions). She isn't quite statistically dominant enough to etch her straight into the highest division, but she certainly rides the Heavy/Godlike border like a champ.

My Plot Is Fucking Stupid Say'ri - Doesn't quite double people who double average and doesn't quite reach coinflip-level evade, but she's close both ways and takes hits considerably better than Lon'qu. Amatsu makes for a neat ranged option for a one-turning against non-melee as well. A good Heavy pretty easily, much like Lon'qu.

Job-Killing Socialist Tiki - Nowi, only better in every single way that matters. Actually 3HKOs, takes hits almost as well as a Breath of Fire lategame boss and even has decent evade on odd-numbered turns. This is a deceptively powerful slugging package, though she fears healers about as much as Nowi does. Low Heavy works, sure.

Elfboy Flavia - Pretty much a better Gregor. Really wishes she actually had those extra levels that let her scrape a 2HKO to average and doubling average speed people, but she's close either way. Sol and axe spoiling are also neat. Middle/Heavy, I guess? May be overselling her a bit.

Ciatos HELL NO! Basilio - A better Vaike, pretty much. Not sure by how much to matter, but certainly rides Heavy well enough.

I KISS YOU Gangrel - High Heavy. The speed is crazy and so is the evade before he gets a turn. The physical durability is awful, but have fun hitting him until he gets going with Lucky Seven+fort bonuses - and have fun eating 4x Levin Sword smacks in retaliation. He nearly doubles people who double average as it stands, which makes his offense really dangerous. He can also usually take a single magic thwack if need be.

Cap'n Crunch Cervantes - Um I'm not sure if he's appreciably better than Kellam at all, FE boss HP is a thing. Physical durability is appreciable with ranged counters, but man, he's so slow and he gets fried badly against magic. He really needed to 2HKO to boot. Light/Middle, probably.

Mike Meyers Excellus - The physical durability is egregiously bad, which makes him give up any hope of going anywhere above Light. Sometimes, he'll live through a magic attack and fry his opposition because Forged Bolganone hurts like -fuck-, but otherwise, yeah.

Red Riding Valmar's Horn Walhart - Decent ranged 2HKO and good defenses (particularly physical) save his durability to a degree, though I think he's likely still well sub-PC HP to magic. Falls juuuuuuust short of doubling average, which is a relief, because you're -dead- if he does. Even has a case not to lose average tiebreak initiative due to his insane threat range, though he often wants to enjoy his first turn durability off throne bonuses, methinks. Some shade of Heavy.

Tim Curry Validar - Middling 2HKO and could stand to be faster, though Vengeance makes him cute against stallers and Dragonskin actually gives him durability. Pretty much a spin on the Nergal/Lyon mold without the egregious failure. High Middle, I guess? Only boss in the game to have a case for -some- sort of status immunity (at least he immunes ID), too.

Foxxy Cleopatra Aversa - Um. Goetia off +11 Attack Speed is downright insane offense, but going last off -that- pdur is asking for trouble. She reminds me of boss Lieselotte, who leaves a lot of smoldering corpses behind her wake if you let her get a turn, but gets OHKOed right and left - and Aversa has the problem of being even worse off at initiative, though her effective offense is somehow even more ridiculous (seriously, Goetia x4 is somewhere in the realm of 2.8x PC HP. That splatters a lot of Godlikes, for god's sake). At least she can take one average magical attack, I think. Low Middle, probably.

Self-Insert Megazord Grima - Um. This is kind of a Lezard situation, though I'm inclined to be more generous to plot barriers granted by a skill (that actually -has been seen before in-game!-) rather than given by tri-ace.tif. So, assuming the barrier works, uh. The raw HP's still egregious suck - roughly 40% advantage over Aversa may sound good before you realize how -awful- her raw HP is (Megazord hovers possibly around 40% PC HP for me? Hard to say. You can tell how much credit I give Aversa there, though), but Megazord more or less quarters damage across the board with the combo of Dragonskin and raw defenses, which gives it actual durability. Decent speed and middle-area, 1-2 range 2HKO also work in its favor, though it always loses initiative. I'd have to see how Dragonskin interacts with skills like Ignis and Luna in order to gauge how I'd view it against ITD (i.e. if it halves the damage boost granted by those skills or not), though I'd only consider Ignis and Luna in FE13 partly ITD. Ignis on the creature itself also grants a cute gimmick against healers and Anathema has its uses. Probably a High Heavy, all things considered. Without Dragonskin, High Middle. Durability's considerably better than Foxxy Cleopatra's, but the effective offense is sensibly worse (Megazord doesn't even double average!). 2HKOing at base with ranged counters still goes a decent way, though, especially when you're not getting OHKOed by average damage. So, you pretty much have Validar with better speed but likely less effective durability. But that's all theorycraft. IN PRACTICE: DNR.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2013, 04:05:30 PM by Jo'ou Ranbu »
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> HEY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> LAGGY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> UVIET?!??!?!
[01:08] <Laggy> YA!!!!!!!!!1111111111
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> OMG!!!!
[01:08] <Chulianne> No wonder you're small.
[01:08] <TranceHime> cocks
[01:08] <Laggy> .....

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Division Rankings rambling.
« Reply #34 on: April 26, 2013, 07:37:01 AM »
SO4 rankings! Initial kneejerks after seeing all the numbers, they may deserve a closer look later.

The entire cast can take a good chunk out of most elements (though usually not more than one at once) and blocks a bunch of status at minimal cost (though stone/ID are bad ones to miss), which does help them a bit.

Edge: Slightly above average at everything, but not really remarkable. He reminds me an awful lot of Lightning, but a bit better overall probably, above average at everything with some weak healing and basically infinite resources (think I allow Convert anyway, although Symbolic Weapon's a decent fallback with a spare turn). Silence is also an option, but turn 2 + slow doesn't scare too much. High Middle.

Reimi: Ew, what the hell is this. Reimi is so good in-game, so bad in the DL. 4-5HKO damage! Below average speed! Below average durability! Berserk is of more benefit to her than average if you allow it since it buffs her crappy attack relatively more, but even then it has a steep downside (stop giving Lights 2HKO damage) so ugh. Light.

Lymle: Slow and frail and somewhat fire-reliant. She has a bunch of tricks (turn 2 silence, long-lasting but kinda crappy healing, Void, Reflection stacking to spoil the elementally reliant) but I dunno how well they work in Middle. A real terror in Light though, she probably rides the Light/Middle border.

Bacchus: The cast star. 55% healing, but on Bacchus that's close to a bar of PCHP against physicals, and not that much worse against magic. Oh and it's really fast. Oh and he can use it forever. Oh and he easily stunlocks opponents, so block that or die. He reminds me a lot of Wren, only better at offence despite the worse speed (especially when stun is in play) but without status immunity. That's a big loss, but still, High Heavy.

Meracle: Somewhat fast and damaging but somewhat fragile. None of these are far from average as you might expect though, she 3HKOs and is 3HKOed by average just like most of the cast. Main thing which gets her clear of Light is stun; she's not as good at it as Bacchus, but give her two turns and you're asking for a decent chain of Ripper Pounces to lock you down for her respectable damage to finish you off. Middle.

Myuria: 80% freeze off above average speed. Hello, Heavy. It's almost a shame that freeze is so good because it makes the rest of her game less meaningful (it could do mean things in Middle), although due to her speed she's certainly the most able to parlay her Healing / Reflection / Enlighten game into victories. This is only relevant against crappy freeze-immunes in Heavy, though.

Sarah: Look, the only PC with healing that approaches full! So of course, it resolves so slowly that the slightly above average claim 3-2s, and anyone who 3-2s her (with a 3HKO) or 2HKOs her suspect durability beats her pretty much, which is an awful lot of Middle. No Fast Cast makes her defensive tricks way too slow to work, I think. At least they help her to win matches against other defensive stallers. Low Middle.

Arumat: Generally above average 3HKOer, who can trade damage for 140% speed if need be (nice for snagging finisher doubles against those slightly faster than him). Still he lets opponents get two turns far too often. Edge with more offensive tricks (not being tied to melee like Edge and Meracle helps) but without the useful support symbology. Middle.

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Clear Tranquil

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Re: Division Rankings rambling.
« Reply #35 on: April 28, 2013, 04:04:47 AM »
Thanks NEB =)

Reimi ;_; Does she get a lot better if you allow Critical Hit and Energy Shield?~

I'm thinking of allowing Critical Hit for the PCs personally since it's storebought as soon as Astral City (Mobious's One Stop Shop) which is ... around midgame I think? No issues on availability for me then ... I suppose there's still an uniqueness argument however, though Critical Hit does reflect Reimi/Meracle's in game performances very well I think~

Stun is also available around the same time (Tropp) and if you take two of the PCs that can use it as the same person for the relevant reasons that leaves it with three users if I have this right which I think would make it pretty legal but it's not as good as Critical Hit as far as I know and I don't think/know if it would benefit Edge/Meracle/Arumat much anyway. Doesn't it only work for base physicals?

Yaay Bacchus and yaay for at least one of the mages transferring well to the DL =)

Huh, interesting. Meracle transferred better than I thought she was going to at least. To be honest I thought she wasn't going to transfer very well at all to the DL at all since much of her frontlining in game for me at least revolves around her blindsiding and doing massive damage/extensive juggling/increased criticalling off her blindside, plus the very best of her juggling doesn't open up until X-Claw/L71. Much of how I view her in game doesn't really carry over but she seems to have found a different niche to work with anyway, thanks for figuring/finding that out =) She's not DL brilliant or anything, but works~
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Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Division Rankings rambling.
« Reply #36 on: April 28, 2013, 06:05:29 AM »
I have some informal tests (corroborated by something I found on GameFAQs) that suggests that maxed Critical Hit is +10%. So not really great but it's a little push. Energy Shield I'd have to test (and wouldn't have much respect for someone using two passive skills at once). I don't think Reimi's going to be good regardless, what makes her good in-game is "ranged damage is great" and "can use Berserk at a far lower risk" and "hits elemental weakness on the bosses of the final two dungeons".

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DjinnAndTonic

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Re: Division Rankings rambling.
« Reply #37 on: April 29, 2013, 08:55:03 AM »
Needs more Faize temp stat notes! >_<

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Re: Division Rankings rambling.
« Reply #38 on: May 17, 2013, 09:29:45 PM »
I was going to do this but forgot and now the Faize I have at the save point before the Phantoms is overlevelled (L66~ with his weapon from the battle arena and the Earthrock Mail equipped) He doesn't learn Reaping Spark till L66 =/

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Did you consider Lutea's Sacred Stone for Lymle at all?~

I seem to remember some discussion on this before waay back with peeps but can't remember the specifics, whether or not there was some reason it was or was not legal~
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Dhyerwolf

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Re: Division Rankings rambling.
« Reply #39 on: May 26, 2013, 06:52:53 AM »
Atelier Iris

After a little testing thought everyone was going to up Middle, but everyone ended up able to carve out some cool niche (Klein forcing you to OHKO often, Lita's Jump Invincibility strategy, Delsus' anti-healing/potential OHKOing, Norn's crazed Magic Shield buff chains, Marietta the healing tank and Arlin taking Lita's Jump strategy and doubling the damage and then throwing in a double damage buff). Ended up loving this game in a duel, for all that it will basically never be relevant (minus that I definitely know what I'll be nomming next Futurama).

Klein- 3.95. Eternal Mana could probably have been a good nickname for Klein, describing both his skillset breadth and his resource depth. Damage (magical, "physical", elemental, ITE, ITD), Healing (full HP&MP healing at the same time, solid draining damage), status (sleep and charm), and Buffing. Unfortunately...the buffing kind of sucks in a duel. Fantastic boosting damage that doesn't effect Klein, a 50% blocking buff that needs a turn to setup on a slow, frail PC. He wanted speed.

But...to me, basically you need to disable him in a turn or else you'll have problems. If you're slower, he'll throw up the 50% blocking, status you out, or use Living Item if you can ID or OHKO him. Against faster 2HKOers who avoid the status turn 1, he can stall with Vampire Fangs, which heal 67% of his HP. May be able to deal with some Heavy sluggers because he'll 2HKO with Vamp Fangs+Finisher and stay alive to get the turns.. Can get a few statuses to me, but not important ones.

Living Item is cool as hell if you give him time though. 1/2 recharge means that he stacks Living Item Revival, and then stacks Living Item Blocking. A faster 2HKOers will then trigger Auto-Life, then trigger Blocking and then it's Klein's turn...to recast Auto-Life effectively, get another half turn to heal and still have Blocking up!

Lacks the stats to get too far in Heavy, but that skillset is fantastic

Lita- 3.35. Free turn on average against attacking enemies with a 68% chance. So...buff, fly off screen or just go for an all out attack. Obviously not great against healers. Solid Middle. Hates that she got the non-stacking buff. Back up strategy with ITE magic is cool. Doesn't like magic so much.

Her jump strategy actually gains a lot because...it's a 1/2 turn CT and RT. So she can manipulate it so that she can attack and then goes skyward again without her enemy getting a turn. Obviously limited MP holds this back from being amazing, but it deals with non-healers well (at least, if they can't time their turns like FF characters. If you give defend commands, she does still do over 2 PC HP while skybound, so can still get some through defend.

Delsus- 3.25. Weirdo. Ends up with okay damage as a fluke (Flare Shot unfocuses in game, so he doesn't have anything approaching consistent damage). His game is to try pump out First Shots and then Spirit Blast the enemy into a oblivion, which is a much better strategy in the DL than in game (where being one of three random elements can lead to massively bad things). This kills on turn 2.5x, so beats out 3HKOers.

Feint Shot is more awesome in game than the DL, so I guess there's a balance. Obvious cast worst as a dueller, but at least beating out average 3HKOers and Feint Shot probably are enough to scrape low Middle since he has can OHKO (on turn 1.5) some magically frail too.

Norn- 3.8. Tentative Low Heavy...maybe. So without Zeldalia's Cane (post game), status accuracy on Turn2Candy is a lot lower. BUT MAGIC SHIELD. So often goes first, casts that and halves damage, takes a hit, casts it twice more. You need .95 PC HP physical damage to 2HKO her, and if you don't 2HKO her, she'll cast Magic Shield a 4th and 5th times and basically starting taking 1 damage. Then she's free to use magic or physicals to kill. Weird, but very cool. I thought she'd just end up a typical status whore type, but awesome defensive buffing quirk is much better. Doesn't like people who outspeed her.

Marietta- 3.45. So Marietta looked horrible in the original topic in almost a comically bad way. -50 Speed weapon with less damage (not that speed matters beyond turn 1, but not sure that was known then or at least mentioned). Anyways, her basic physical is surprisingly solid and she has a lot of healing (and 50% chance of reviving to at least temper crit chances for enemies). Decent Middle. Magic "back up" is cool too for all that Lightning God wasn't really back up in game. Better to converse her MP for healing.

Arlin- 4. The temp. Oh, that cool jump strategy Lita has? He has that too, except his does  almost double the damage. And if he takes a hit first? He can use Berserker, get a quick recharge, go skybound and then do 1.15 PC HP damage and repeat that for 4 turns. So at least Middle calibre healers get killed and it's great in a slugfest. Blocking beats out Dodge, but his Fast Attack is worse. Lot better HP though. Heavy, and a really cool one.
...into the nightfall.

Dhyerwolf

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Re: Division Rankings rambling.
« Reply #40 on: August 27, 2013, 09:33:17 AM »
MK 2- Cast loves having status weapons, since it really opens up another avenue (even if ID weapons are turn 4 or something, gives them a lot more options).

Raze- 4.25. 110% Dur and must be killed twice. Timed Cards make Mid-High Heavy work well. Damage is more on tad above average with TC, with a few quirks

Lily- 2.8. 90% Pdur/83% Mdur, Tad above average speed, tad above average damage (44% ish). Almost reaches KO point at 2.6 turns, meaning magically undurable need to 2HKO her. The definite Light

Et- 4.3. Unleahes 75% PC HP on her first turn or can do 50% PC HP+a buff that allows the next turn to do PC HP. Using Quick can mean less damage turn 1, but that second PC HP damage turn coming at 1.25 speed. Brutal physical slugging.

Yun- 3.1. 115% 3HKO off above average speed, almost 2HKOs off 90% speed (that slows enemies down about 15%, so balances somewhat to average). Last Stand and Willpower at Pinch feels like they work well against healers and gives more potenency to damage when needed. Feels like the way to sneak into Middle, but he could be a Light?

Puniyo- 3.65. Borderline kill damage about turn 1.5. 2.4 w/o Puni Breath. Healing is bad, damage doesn't exist after the rush. While the raw turn 1 slugfesting is Heavy, the rest of the package, the speed makes it questionable.

Ulrika- 3.45. ItD is not great since it's not really falling in the OHKO region. Deals with mages well, silence immune healers give her fits to some degree perhaps (minus doubling)?

Chloe- 3.05. 1.05 2HKO off about 95% speed, 1.25 2HKO off about 90% speed. Unsure if she can really play in Middle.

Pepperoni- 3.5. 1.52 Pdur, 1.1 Mdur, 4 Regen, 90% Speed,33% Earth that delays enemy turns to hell or 65% Earth with a 1.4x Recharge.

Enna- 3.2. 1.3 PC HP damage at turn 2.9 (However, 0.8 PC HP of that is Thunder, so average with Thunder halving pushes the kill point back to 3.1). Notably more durable, less wallable Lily.

Goto- 3 His horrible in game performance makes me just put starting GP at 40. So Triple Volley chain is 85% damage, so good against non-durable, non-evasive types. I'd like to think that it's not really enough for Middle, but eh. This is a case where I think I'd need to see how it went in practice, but hate.

So two solid Heavy, a Heavy/Middle, three solid Middles, 3 Light/Middles and a Light. Would make for a good Proving Grounds game Super!
...into the nightfall.

Dhyerwolf

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Re: Division Rankings rambling.
« Reply #41 on: September 30, 2013, 02:26:46 AM »
Estelle- 3.95. Spam Healing at 110 or 120% speed, gain CP, unless 2 PC HP damage. The speed boost on the healing really is awesome, because most PCs will need to OHKO her (unless they have a variety of statuses) or 2HKO her and double and that kills the doubles. Damage is good anyways (like 48%). Clear Heavy.
Joshua- 3.65 Best 2 turn damage and good HP and speed. Need to test the delay effect more on Flicker. That could potentially propel him into Heavy.
Scherazad- 3.2. Olivier with notably more HP, better ability to randomly mess with healers, and a better physical without the healing tech. This probably works.
Olivier- 3. Cheers for no stat gains from orbments included, cries at 50 CP. Good Light. Confuse is nice, but not sure how well it would end up holding up against physical fighters (could be good enough to get him to Middle). The healing is cool, but only really with the recharge (since it's basically 40% average). I could be underrating him
Kloe- 3.75. Healbot in a game with awesome healing...but unlike Estelle, yeah no real S-Craft to work towards (and the Defense buffing on the 200 CP variant isn't so hot). Impose is very awesome (and suspect that as the second game is very similar and starts her at level 35, she'll be fast enough to take advantage of it offensively a bit), but doesn't have that overkill factor. Very borderline, unsure which way she might break.
Tita- 2.6. Obvious Light, likes some slower physical fighters (or not too damaging quicker ones). Like Olivier she has Confuse, which I could be underrating. Otherwise, praying for Blind to let her nab wins. Since the Blind is attached to 30% damage though, it's pretty solid.
Agate- 3.75. Can do borderline ITE OHKO on turn 1 at the cost of 30% MHP. Otherwise than that, a passable magical/physical slugger. He could go in either division based on the Proving Grounds.
Zane- 3.4. Ugh, he hates that defensive buffs did not come as good as advertised. HP is good, Mute is good. Not sure that he gets a lot of run out of Composure honestly. It's just kind of stalling off average speed. Maybe against low damage healers, but even then random status might be better there anyways. Oh, he loooooooooves it give him the 110% speed

Amalthea- 3.2. Oh that HP...probably a bit over PC HP level. Average damage that is also anti-healer, a bit of speed, and absolutely crushes people who come against her depending on MP. For all that she's a joke, she's covering a lot of niches.
Lorence- 4.4. Uh...would vote DNR in the DL proper, but would find him okay for like CKDL. No support credit, I don't let him spam Earth Guard mk 2 each turn...but also only see it getting one hit. It's still cute, S-Craft->Earth Guard->S-Craft->Earth Guard. Against the slow, he'll get a lot of doubles anyways. This probably keeps him from Godlike though. Nasty Heavy though (who knows, when I nail down damage more there, that could change. That defense at that point...well, actually may be pretty good). May be revised later.
Richard- 3.85. 2 or so PC HP, good defenses and speed. Yeah, can't spam that S-Craft but it's not like Middles are 2HKOing (or generally 3HKOing). Throw in boss immunities, and I can't see him lower myself.
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Re: Division Rankings rambling.
« Reply #42 on: October 01, 2013, 09:09:07 AM »
LFT Uniques, because I feel I should take as much advantage of the new stat topic as possible.

Ramza: Barely 3HKOs average.  Even with Ultima having improved as it has to ITE Faith-ignoring magic damage, he's stuck with his default build and downgrades to a 4HKO if he wants physical evade or fire/ice nulling worth a damn.  Will spoil MDEF-over-HP types and the like, but he's not accomplishing much with his build.  Put him at Low Middle, as much as he's improved a lot in-game.

Mustadio: ...a...ahahahaha.  9HKOs.  Enough said.  Have fun in Light.

Agrias: She doesn't have to give up armor for damage anymore, just her shield.  Given how often those are glossed over in the DL (not sure how often that should be--40% evade or 50% Mevade are both nice to have), that might not be too much of a loss.  Put her in Middle, all said and done, and watch as she still regrets the fact that she does not have magic with that MA score.

Rafa: ...what.  Just...that damage.  What.  Rafa absolutely shatters the averages in this with a high 2HKO, on top of having her choice of high evasion or magic evade.  She kind of needs it, though, given that she gets 2HKO'd by average.  I suppose she's some flavor of Middle, but where depends on where you hold evade respect--high shield+mantle respect will give you her choice of 65% PEV/40% MEV or 35% PEV/75% MEV and might make her a borderliner based on that alone.  Lack of respect for FFT evade gives you the 2HKO-but-2HKO'd-by-average-physicals-and-going-second which places her in the low to mid Middle?  Hell of a lot better than she was.

Malak: And you thought Rafa improved.  Malak's effectiveness has jumped up largely in part due to one thing: Exploding Frog.  Flat 100% evade-ignoring Frog/Oil/Faith/Transparent/Reraise (and it's FFT reraise so you can't even benefit from it in a duel), all bundled into a cruel little package.  If you need more, his MDur clocks in at around 2.684, so he's next to immune to magic.  Essentially, OHKO him, or block Frog and 2HKO him.  I feel quite safe pegging him as a middling to high Heavy.

Orlandu: He's still Orlandu.  Still largely ranks as Godlike off of the speed and draining.  He just hates that he lost Mighty Sword skills in this incarnation.

Meliadoul: Meliadoul is an example of a dueller who has just about everything but damage, and doesn't really care.  2.8 physical durability and 1.7 magical, and the ability to completely ruin a large variety of characters between ITE equipment breaks and extremely competent offensive stat-busting for the enemies who don't have equipment to break.  She doesn't win on damage so much as making the other guy suck so bad that they don't -have- any damage left to speak of.  Kneejerking borderline Heavy/Godlike--that durability is really, -really- good, and Ruins let her rip mages and unarmed types a new one, but she's held back by her speed and inability to use high-grade offense.

Beowulf: Middle.  Still a PC slayer, still has damage problems.

Reis: Reis...is pretty much a textbook Light, but somewhat of an interesting one.  Her damage is standard 3HKO and she's frail, but...that element-spoiling.  Holy shit that element spoiling.  Absorbs Holy, and blocks the Big Three innately.  Even though she wishes she could have the option of wearing Clothes (for Earth Clothes or Black Costume for spoiling), she'll ruin a lot of elementally-reliant duellers on this alone.

Worker 8: Worker 8 trades damage for durability in this transition.  He's still magic-immune as always, but now trades 2HKO damage for a 3HKO and ~2x PCHP physical durability.  Is this a winning trade?  I'm not sure, but he still feels Heavy to me, and still spoils the magic-reliant in horrible cooking-related manners

Cloud: Doesn't really change.  Finishing Touch still ridiculous.  Still Heavy off of that.  Still generally not allowed this form.
<+Nama-EmblemOfFire> ...Have the GhebFE guy and the ostian princess guy collaborate.
 <@Elecman> Seems reasonable.

SnowFire

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Re: Division Rankings rambling.
« Reply #43 on: October 04, 2013, 08:39:53 AM »
Since Dhyer is rambling on Trails, I'll join in.  I'm basically with Pyro's stat topic, except I took would give Estelle Freeze & Mind 3 orbments, and Joshua Blind orbment.  And the stats from 'em (so Estelle OHKOs a little more solidly thanks to the magic increase, and Joshua has Clock Up EX.)  I'd probably also let the 2 fill their blank slots with effectlesss Space solely to set up area effect spells in their base element, which is almost totally irrelevant outside team matches (so Estelle has La Teara, Joshua has White Gehenna, etc.)  It is pretty neat that most of the cast ends up roughly as effective whether 100 CP or 50 CP is used, Agate having probably the biggest leap, even if they fight totally differently (Estelle going from a deadly blitzer who can sometimes stall into a deadly staller with pressure, etc.).

Also, total side thought from reading Dhyer's topic...  I get the argument for no Orbment stat boosts (Hey, anyone can equip that HP 3 orbment for durability), but I'd recommend instead something like "only get stat boosts from that character's element or "only 3 orbments of stat boosts."  Kloe has 3 locked Water Orbments, of which there are only 4 to choose from and 3 storebought (HP, Mind, Freeze, and the non-storebought Heal she comes equipped with).  She's basically guaranteed to be grabbing that HP & Mind in-game to help increase her magic damage & fix durability issues.  Yes, others could too, but others could also grab lots of other stuff.  Same with Joshua (Action, Cast, Blind, & Deathblow are the only options for 2 locked slots - he's equipping that Action & Cast at the bare minimum), Agate (he'll grab some Fire for more attack on his physical stuff, and usually wants to anyway), etc., and Tita having some locked Space slots is a genuine disadvantage in-game.  Then again, as already noted I'm willing to use Pyro's assumption of "starting stuff, Joshua & Estelle get scaled up" so feel free to ignore me.

Estelle - High Heavy.  OHKO'ing on turn 1 will do that, often can easily threaten a 2HKO for heal-locks, and has a solid healing / status-blocking fallback game where she just waits for a 200 CP Barrage, which is enough to murder most PC tanks.  Fails hard against tanky enough enemies, most notably some DL bosses, though, where she'll just run out of EP.
Joshua - Low Heavy.  Kind of like a worse WAXF Levin.  Can slug passably well, and absolutely murders the slow with Clock Up EX -> alternate Flicker & Shadow Spear.  Some Heavy healers are forced to heal often enough against the damage, fearing a Flicker chain, they get ID'd before they can finish him off, too.  The lack of a backup healing game makes him generally just lose to tanks, though, unless they're slow enough.
Schera - High Middle.  Yeah, 100% Confuse randomly screws with Middle Healers / some mages, but stats are just not quite good enough to get farther.  Sylphen Guard is of doubtful utility since she's often taken a single hit already, and gets 2HKO'd reasonably often.  Usual Trails vs. tanks problem w/ 100 CP.
Olivier - High Middle.  Schera but with worse damage, but Earth Guard cheese meaning he almost always beats any dueler slower than him, which does come up.  Happy Trigger is of theoretical use when Olivier's trying to win with status and doesn't care about tanking his damage.
Kloe - Low Heavy.  I nom'd Kloe in Middle for Futurama awhile back and she champed.  100% Mute is a pretty damn good spoiler to start with (see SD3 Lise, who is meh otherwise but makes Middle largely off that), toss in healing and 100% Confuse, and she's just too hard to deal with for most Middles.  Radiant Plash even helps her mess with some strategies like "wait for a double than 2HKO."  Of course, Heavys can punish her damage issues better than Middle, but even then, she's fine.  (Also, she mostly likes the 50 CP interp for those who take it as she gets actual pressure that way, although not so much a no-orbment-stats interp, which makes her a lot frailer.)
Agate - Middle.  KOs average on turn 2 in slugfests, usual 100 CP Trails quirks (preys on the frail, fears the tankish), Earth Guard cheese.  Really loves the 50 CP interp, which is the magic number where Wild Rage isn't trash.
Tita - High Light, and possibly champ material at that.  Yeah her stats are utter trash, and she torpedoes her damage to use Smoke Cannister (100 CP interp), but her statuses are synergistic and unusually accurate for Light.  Against Light mages, she throws out Confuse, and against Light fighters (FE trash, runeless Suiko characters), she uses Blind.  Earth Guard cheese also comes up in Light.  So yeah, not usually enough status immunity running around in Light to stop her reign of terror, although FE Mages eat her for lunch.
Zane - Low Heavy.  110% speed + 22 castings of Earth Guard basically gives him 2 free wimpy attacks vs. average speed duelers without a buffing game, and more vs. the slower.  Still won't be enough vs. sufficiently tanky opponents, but it's something.  Being faster than Kloe but having the same Mute game is pretty handy when Heavy mages can't be allowed even one turn to do something nasty.  Not a huge fan of him in the DL though.  Hates a no-stats from orbments or a no-non-Earth-stats interp of course, which robs him of the speed.

--
I see the bosses as less tanky than Dhyer, more willing to hold S-Crafts against them, especially since PC S-crafts can easily steal things like Critical-up turns for even more damage.  (But I don't usually hold Overdrives much against FFX bosses, so maybe I'm being a hypocrite.  Maybe I should dock FFX some respect points, too.)  Checking my notes...  Amalthea is around 1.05 PCHP ignoring S-Crafts & support credit, but if you toss even a single 100 CP Barrage in there, she's down to .83 PCHP.  Toss in more and it looks grim.

Amalthea - High Light.  I'd kneejerk her durability as bad enough (.7-.8 PCHP?) that her EP-drain game doesn't work fast enough to save her a lot.  Plenty of mages have above-average MP so the duelers who most care are also the most likely to be able to tank 2x Absorb, but you never know, it's Light.  That said, against the damage-challenged in Light, she is pretty scary, mopping up Light healers easily.
Lorence - High Heavy.  Okay, apparently the scale-down-enemy-damage-nulling interp was more widespread than I thought, which makes Lorence less insane.  Anyway, great status whoring, and 2/3 damage reduction Earth Guard + healing + wait for doubles is a strategy vs. the even slightly slow.  Just plain loses some slugfests against Low Godlike bosses, though.  Possibly safest place to stow him anyway, Heavys that beat him need a specific set of tools (WA4 Jeremy's speed + status immunity, Ike not caring much about Confuse, etc.).
Richard - Low Heavy.  This is so wrong since I kneejerked him as Middle, and in-game he is so bad (aw yeah spam that ST 5HKO).  There *are* Middles who outslug him to me (I'd see him as ~1.5 PCHP), but they're all quite good (Tengaar maybe?  Or Jude?  Jude is funny, they each 4HKO each other or something but Jude goes first).  Richard does just enough damage that most Middles get 3HKO'd, and he deals with Middle healers quite well with Faint hax, and he doesn't fear status, so yeah.  Middles with great damage usually have some horrible other flaw like "is insanely slow" or "has tissue paper durability" that Richard can exploit.

superaielman

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Re: Division Rankings rambling.
« Reply #44 on: October 04, 2013, 03:22:09 PM »
Lufia 3! No starting IP, Mousse in the averages.

Wain- 4.0. Beats a lot of vanilla sluggers due to the healing and tankiness. He has almost no resource against status and he's on the slow side.
Seena- 3.1. Slow, not durable in the least, and her IPs blow. Her drain game gets her into middle and mirror has some use against mages with awful physical backup.  It's just hard to respect that speed/durability combo.
Dei- 3.8? This is by far the hardest rank to figure. He's a red mage type. His ID game is going to be effective in the DL thanks to that speed, and he has other status options to fall back on. His IP healing is good for stallfests as well.  Wishes he had more damage though.
Aima- 3.8 *Total* status bait, but god help you if you're trying to slug her down. She has Ragnar level HP and a whole lot of fatal limit ranges. Those issues with status keep her as a pretty weak heavy though.
Randolph- 1.8. So, so bad. His limits are easy to avoid thanks to Randolph HP, and he is incredibly slow. His best damage also damages him! Winner.
Melphis- 3.6. Competent middle. She has a lot more HP and a little more speed than Seena, which feels like it makes a difference in practice. She also has resistance, which helps against turn two status that isn't walled by mirror.
Mousse-1.4.  Doesn't translate. Tail Illusion buys him wins against Mint types at least! His damage is however absolutely awful otherwise.
Deckard- 3.5. Great stats (1.3x PC HP and above average speed), but hates that he doesn't have any healing. Having some elemental resistances helps some too. He'd give his left arm to have Sacred Song like Dekar though.
Yurist- 3.9. Assumption: Resistance is status immunity like it claims. I haven't tested this one thoughly to be sure though. Anyway! He can be OHKOed or statused out, but it's hard to do.  He's the only PC to get good IP's and magic, which makes up for the completely unremarkable stats.
Ruby: 3.3.Mage killer. Mirror is good like that. Otherwise, fast 3HKOer with full healing off some appallingly bad durability. Spell Break lets her buff and eventually avoid getting heal locked by light level fighters, so there's that!
Isaac: 4.2. OHKO/status or die. Having full healing and some evil IPs does that.  Blocking a few statuses helps too.
Milka: 3.7. 67% PC HP. *Yuck*. Mirror is good and so is resistance/Xabsorb, but that durability keeps her out of Heavy.
----
Gades: 4.5. He wants Lufia 1 in the DL, though this form is competent.  Curse is a good PC killer, though it's not going to cut it against the nastier godlike PC's.
Amon: 5.0. Just plain nasty. Overkill damage backed up by mirror and some very good magic damage.  PC's generally get owned bad by Galactic Lancer, with his 100% confusion buying him a win against say Yuna. His lack of durability keeps him in check though, not much above PC HP for me.Amon can proudly say he's the only sinstrial to not get shithoused by Claude though! Unlike the next guy...
Daos: 4.5. Slow and not durable. The durability thing really needs to be highlighted here. Daos has 5000 less HP than he does in Lufia 2, against what I'd say is a much higher in game average. Dark Reflector is as lol worthy as ever. Scary memory is a nice trick, but I have zero respect for that against bosses. PC's who don't OHKO him generally are going to get eaten by his damage anyway, so scar memory ends up not mattering. He reminds me of Rashidi who trades some speed for a little durability and scary memory. Doubt it's a winning trade.
Erim: 4.3? I don't think Xabsorb OHKOs average (By a hair) to me and she's slow. She's a boss version of Seena. I'm not sure she can even take the likes of FE Guy with that wonderful Pdef/speed mix.
Guard Daos 4.9. Fears ITD to some extent, but that's it. Pdef is really high, even his Mdef matters after a use of Dark Aura. Doubt he ever really uses Dark Aura though, he's kinda slow and his offense is good enough as is.Also a DNR, is a literal plot fusion.
Zalbak: DNR. Probably a bluelike, he triple acts and has silly damage.
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Dhyerwolf

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Re: Division Rankings rambling.
« Reply #45 on: October 04, 2013, 10:48:06 PM »
Since Dhyer is rambling on Trails, I'll join in.  I'm basically with Pyro's stat topic, except I took would give Estelle Freeze & Mind 3 orbments, and Joshua Blind orbment.  And the stats from 'em (so Estelle OHKOs a little more solidly thanks to the magic increase, and Joshua has Clock Up EX.)  I'd probably also let the 2 fill their blank slots with effectlesss Space solely to set up area effect spells in their base element, which is almost totally irrelevant outside team matches (so Estelle has La Teara, Joshua has White Gehenna, etc.)  It is pretty neat that most of the cast ends up roughly as effective whether 100 CP or 50 CP is used, Agate having probably the biggest leap, even if they fight totally differently (Estelle going from a deadly blitzer who can sometimes stall into a deadly staller with pressure, etc.).

Also, total side thought from reading Dhyer's topic...  I get the argument for no Orbment stat boosts (Hey, anyone can equip that HP 3 orbment for durability), but I'd recommend instead something like "only get stat boosts from that character's element or "only 3 orbments of stat boosts."  Kloe has 3 locked Water Orbments, of which there are only 4 to choose from and 3 storebought (HP, Mind, Freeze, and the non-storebought Heal she comes equipped with).  She's basically guaranteed to be grabbing that HP & Mind in-game to help increase her magic damage & fix durability issues.  Yes, others could too, but others could also grab lots of other stuff.  Same with Joshua (Action, Cast, Blind, & Deathblow are the only options for 2 locked slots - he's equipping that Action & Cast at the bare minimum), Agate (he'll grab some Fire for more attack on his physical stuff, and usually wants to anyway), etc., and Tita having some locked Space slots is a genuine disadvantage in-game.  Then again, as already noted I'm willing to use Pyro's assumption of "starting stuff, Joshua & Estelle get scaled up" so feel free to ignore me.

Hmm, I should post a topic on where most of the DL sees things like starting CP/SP/IP now. Would be interesting to see where things fall now. 100 CP feels a little bit much for Trails 1, and also kind of throws things off balance compared to game. It definitely feels like as accessible as G3 SP, and the money DL move use all of SP (and S-Crafts definitely felt like something you needed to really build up to in game). Really throws off the balance compared to in game.

Any PC that wants to can easily grab HP 3, the relevant Attack/Mind 3 and Speed 3. Kloe was the one who naturally got the healing set, which is reward enough (Even with Tita...2 locked Space isn't that bad. You want Eagle Vision on someone, and EP Cut 3 is good for setting up MT stuff. So not good, but not that serious a limitation). The skillsets are already enough of advantage (Alternately, anyone could have started with that Action 2, but it's not really so relevant when Zane joins. Not sure he should get a heap of DL credit for something like that).

Amalthea- Yeah, probably overrated her HP a bit. 0.8 may be more accurate than 1. May cost her Middle; she's the type where a little extra HP goes a really long way.
Lorence versus Jeremy- Jeremy does not like that Pdur though because Lorence's defense is nasty. Earlier Jeremy's may okay, but late ones struggle. Ike needs to get that ITD hit ASAP.
Richard- Between his defense and evade, Jude's damage should take a pretty nasty fall. He's notably above average in both, which Jude does not like.
...into the nightfall.

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Division Rankings rambling.
« Reply #46 on: October 04, 2013, 11:57:09 PM »
I have a hard time wrapping my head around Richard as a heavy. He was so bad. I guess he's kinda durable (although only 1.66x Amalthea's HP, so if she's 0.8, he's 1.3...) but the non-S-craft damage is absolutely anemic, so he only 4HKOS average, and Heavies tend to be on the durable side of average (or evasive). I personally see him as a mediocre Middle... pretty good against the fragile where he may 3HKO first or even better, but descends to be pretty awful pretty fast if you can take hits, since he isn't getting a second S-craft until turn 5.

Lorence can fuck off. Seriously. Worthless plot fight. At least Dhyer's observations confirmed mine that he isn't as fast as the numbers suggest.

I'm not really sure how I feel about initial CP, I can see cases either way. I will agree with Dhyer about de-emphasising orbment stats, same way I feel about WA5. They're not unique at all, and in-game you can pretty easily grab all the important ones. Giving e.g. Joshua credit for Action 2 is no different than giving Rico credit for his starting speed ring, and I for one have certainly moved past such views.

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Dhyerwolf

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Re: Division Rankings rambling.
« Reply #47 on: October 05, 2013, 04:59:33 AM »
Richard should be higher than Amalthea relatively because support credit (his doesn't suck). I'm assuming with the 4HKO that  you don't let Richard use the S-Craft on turn 1? Otherwise he 3HKOs. Also, S-Crafts are ITE (At least...I guess I should say the PCs one are, but I don't imagine that the bosses are different on that account). His defense is decent too.

So, a bad 3HKO, decent Pdur, status immunity, way to mess with healers, and at least above average speed. He sucks as a Heavy, but feels like a lot of Middles to deal with. There certainly are ones that do so I could be overrating him. Another TitS dueller who would be good to test in a M/H Proving Grounds along with so many others.
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Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Division Rankings rambling.
« Reply #48 on: October 05, 2013, 07:07:54 AM »
Richard's support was awful, what are you talking about (10HKO damage!). I ignored it and pasted him; that gets no support credit from me. Anyway, Richard's absolute best damage aside from the S-Craft is 0.2 (and that's a limit?!), otherwise 0.17. The S-craft is 0.55. That's a 4HKO to average, and not terribly hard to push to 5 (although very hard to push past 5, since turn 5 is when he gets S-craft #2 off for me). S-crafts ignore evade, sure, but his other stuff doesn't.

I had no idea his def was any good though (I ran Kloe and Olivier)! Hmm... your notes say it's a 75% cut against basic physicals, and a 20% cut against S-crafts? Six PCs have magic as better than their non-S-craft physical damage, so I'd take 20% for them, and probably... I dunno, let's call it 60% against Agate/Zane then (that's probably generous, I think S-crafts happen more often than that). Averages out to a 30% cut of the cast's physical offence. I'm pretty big on taking def against the stuff that matters. Still gives him a nice push, to be sure, so yeah, he can outslug some pure fighters who make up low Middle. Obviously he's a bit better if you see the physical cut as closer to 50% but that feels like really overrating it to me, compared to how little it matters in-game.

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SnowFire

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Re: Division Rankings rambling.
« Reply #49 on: October 05, 2013, 08:53:00 AM »
I would at least throw Joshua his charge-time benefits from Cast, charge times aren't usually something that the DL averages out.

I'm mostly with Elf about respecting defense only vs. the stuff that matters, and thus not inclined to hype Trails boss defense too much.  It's really useful against Agate / Zane, but not S-Crafts or magic....  and if you really want to go beatdown, well, you're probably doing things like eating Strength-buff food and using Kloe's Impose to still get good damage in, so there are totally ways around it in-game. 

For Richard vs. Amalthea HP, it isn't just support credit.  If you assume you walk into the fight with some CP, it's basically a subtractive cut of starting HP, so it hurts HP-light Amalthea more than Richard.  (Assuming 0/33/66/100 probably still means the boss will eat 2 S-Crafts minimum, assuming 0/66/133/200 is ugly and is 2 S-Crafts & a boosted S-Craft).  Also, Gladiator Headband is a totally great accessory gotten early - that's the "feed equipped character CP constantly" accessory that can ensure a steady stream of Barrages or Black Fangs, which helped me not feel particularly CP-poor in-game.  Obviously DL-illegal for the PCs but a minor strike against the bosses.  As for Richard in Heavy, well, it's all about Afterglow Smasher AI in the DL.  Agree that if he's more restricted on that to "wait 4 turns" akin to in-game, he immediately sinks back into Middle, I was just kneejerking to "every other turn" which gives Richard something like 1.2 PCHP of damage on his third turn.  (Every other turn is how much I restrict, say, Jade's BoltX to, or Chaos's NUKE.)  I could very easily be swayed on this since Richard in Heavy is so wrong.  (also, his support isn't TOTALLY worthless, the fact it's an MT 10HKO mildly helps!  And it's clearly better than Amalthea's...  somehow....)