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Author Topic: Division Rankings rambling.  (Read 51294 times)

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Division Rankings rambling.
« Reply #50 on: October 05, 2013, 04:29:11 PM »
Bolt X (a) can certainly be used on consecutive turns [I've seen it several times] and (b) doesn't have strong flavour restriction against it being spammed the way S-Crafts or VP1 great magic does. Chaos' Nuke can indeed not be spammed, but (b) still applies. Basically Trails is very clear that S-Crafts can only be used once in a while on the PC end, and from your tests bosses appear to be the same, so I'd carry the mechanic over. Richard should just be thankful I do let him use the move on turn 1 (which nicely keeps him out of Light, at least).

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Pyro

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Re: Division Rankings rambling.
« Reply #51 on: October 15, 2013, 09:07:01 PM »
Tales of Xillia: Why not.

Jude: Middle. He has tons of healing, good durability, status healing, and elemental resistance. The damage is bad but at least he isn't afraid of counters.

Milla: Middle. Has a low 2HKO with lightning damage and decentish durability. Mocks elemental damage herself. The TP issues are huge though and her backup damage to thunder rather sucks. Feels weaker than Jude in Middle certainly...

Alvin: Middle. Like Jude he has lots of healing and good durability (very nice physical durability). The damage is decent and elemental resists abound which covers his somewhat suspect magic durability. Very good at physical slugfests.

Elize: Heavy. Solid damage, healing, status immunity if she needs it (though she has to sacrifice damage for it), and a weird gimmick game with defending to effect full-healing. I'm honestly not all that sure about her, but she looks pretty good.

Rowen: Middle. Magic immunity should let him have that much. The Diffusion Drive damage/heal is worth something too.

Leia: Middle. That durability and healing is ridiculous. But she has no pressure at all, and her matches will tend to be longer on account of her not wanting to blow TP on even that little amount of damage.

Clear Tranquil

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Re: Division Rankings rambling.
« Reply #52 on: October 17, 2013, 07:03:08 PM »
Thanks for all the Xillia stuff Pyro :) Been enjoying reading your and Fudo's thoughts/etc on the game (be cool if Fudo posted his full speed tests/results if he still has them as well) ~

So, Last Stand is effectively 75% damage reduction then? Been watching a Leia solo on Youtube where I first read from the guy doing it that it was more than 25%

Don't know if you know, but Elemental Impulse also lies. It actually 100%/always adds the element the target is weak to given the target has a weakness. It's only random i.e only imbues a random elemental strength on Leia/another character given the enemy/enemies doesn't/don't have any specific elemental weakness. Not sure how much/if any it helps Leia/allies for DL/dungeon but figured it was worth mentioning anyway :)
« Last Edit: October 17, 2013, 07:17:25 PM by Clear Tranquil »
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Fudozukushi

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Re: Division Rankings rambling.
« Reply #53 on: October 18, 2013, 12:03:54 AM »
My speed tests were VERY ROUGH head counts after like ten or so attempts.  There's no convenient way to get speeds, and Free Run slightly slows dudes.  I do plan on just ripping the wall clock to test later though.  The usual though is Jude is freakishly fast and gets faster.  Rowen makes snails belong in racing movies.  Slow is ridiculously strong.  It makes Wingul, who can tail Jude fairly well, lose in a foot race to Rowen.  I'm also grabbing the boss data.  Though with the ! counter and all things get mighty inconsistent.  I do learn fun things.  Like Agria's fittingly complete lack of a coherent pattern!  She's literally led the battle off with tossing Lemon Gels at herself.  She goes into Overlimit whenever she feels like.  It's hilarious.

Pyro

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Re: Division Rankings rambling.
« Reply #54 on: October 18, 2013, 02:20:51 AM »
Most of the bosses go into Overlimit seemingly whenever they feel like it. Certainly doesn't seem to be tied to HP like in other Tales games. This is especially apparent in the arena where without warning just BAM. There may be a timer where they can enter it every so often, and it's made a bit messier by the fact that Linked enemies share OL much like linked PCs do.

Fudozukushi

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Re: Division Rankings rambling.
« Reply #55 on: October 18, 2013, 03:26:23 AM »
My initial guess was that it was based off of damage they did... until I saw a video(admittedly on Hard) of Agria going into Overlimit at the start of a fight.  Though at the very least Linked bosses go into Overlimit whenever they pull off a Linked Arte.  I got sick of seeing the Aqua thing so damn fast because it just wasted my time until I could actually combo.

Pyro

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Re: Division Rankings rambling.
« Reply #56 on: November 26, 2013, 01:48:08 AM »
Wild Arms 2 retake:

Ashley: High Middle. ~1.4 PCHP overkill! But this can be gotten around by being faster and 2HKOing. It can also be gotten around with hitting for 20%->40%->40%. But that opens up Ashley to winning with his 40% DeadOrAlive ID attack and Accelerator to make it happen before the foe's third turn. That ID strat crumbles in the face of even modest evasion however.

Brad: Low Middle. He has like 1.4 PCHP durability! But he is very slow and only 3HKOs. He can win if he gets to Railgun or if the foe is a bit below average durability and falls to two Lock-On Mini Scuds. Has no recourse against a little status.

Lilka: High Heavy. A bit frail (~.9 PCHP) but speedy, has solid damage that can pick up 2HKOs on the magically undurable, infinite healing, Reflect, ID/Sleep immunity when Reflect doesn't work, speed buffing, and a limit that she can adjust to be ~115% PCHP of any element she wants. Very powerful skillset and stats that don't waste them. She just has a lot of different ways to win.

Tim: Light. Tim has speed and durability woes that confine him to Light. He'd be a pretty miserable one without First Aid. First Aid's initiative healing is decent enough (heals 40% of average HP, or 54% to Tim).  If he spams that he may eventually get a doubleturn that lets him do something nasty like get in a shot of above-average damage or use a 100 FP summon for significant damage. But that involves holding down with First Aid for a long time as he has to get a double when switching from First Aid's good speed to his own bad speed. Still 40% average HP is good healing in Light and hard to overcome.

Kanon: PC form is a low middle. The damage is 4HKO when she isn't taking significant hits, but she's crazy fast. But the lack of damage just opens her up to getting statused. Deals with healers well enough via getting up to strong Gat commands and spamming them till she gets a finisher. The Boss form (which is what I assume is more commonly hyped given her former Heavy ranking) is either a Heavy or a Godlike. The durability is quite bad, which you would notice more in-game if she weren't so damaging as to threaten an OHKO on Tim and possibly Lilka. Hyperfast highish 2HKO is hard to argue with even if a good solid hit puts her down.

Marivel: Light. A bit slow and frail and her statuses are turn 2 (3 for the ID, which is the one she really wanted to be good). WA2 Silence is awesome but by the time it lands she's probably vulnerable to a good physical beatdown. Sleep is kind of worthless on those faster than her... her status is actually good in-game vs. several of the game's most powerful bosses (She can zzz Ragu...) but in a duel she's sorely lacking. Pity.

« Last Edit: November 28, 2013, 03:07:40 AM by Pyro »

Dhyerwolf

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Re: Division Rankings rambling.
« Reply #57 on: December 02, 2013, 07:49:51 AM »
SH 3 PCs
Johnny: 4.65. One nice shot of 1.5 PC HP damage...then nothing that remotely works in Godlike. Feels worse than Shania overall I would think.
Shania: 4.75. Can unleash 1.1 PC HP on turn one, or if needed, bulk up and drain away. Either game works well for low Godlike. Probably wouldn't hold Ether Purge against her (after game stuff)
Frank: 3.05. He can almost scrape the 2HKO off bad speed with 2 Fast Snowballs. That feels a bit much for Light with that HP.
Hilda: 4.15 Can't say she changed much since she was never really about damage. ID with a haste-heal back up if needed. Pink Bat...can do a bit over an OHKO if it can take a hit (I'm sure there are theoretical matches where this is useful since enemies only generally act once)
Mao- 2.8. Solid high Light. No stat weaknesses, 4HKO with magic or physical.
Natan- 2.8. Mao with slightly more HP, but minus limit killing potential (which doesn't matter so much in Light, but hey)
Ricardo- 3. See the above two, add in 10% Regen. He's solid enough to make that very nasty for Light.
...into the nightfall.

Dhyerwolf

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Re: Division Rankings rambling.
« Reply #58 on: January 12, 2014, 06:10:02 AM »
Breath of Fire 2
Ryu: 4.55. Obviously smashes if he gets a turn with 2.5 ITD damage. But...lots of time in Godlike he won't. Hell, lots of times in Heavy. So gut is the Godlike side, but fast status gets him badly.
Bow: 3.1. Well, Shot is down to turn 3ish. But hey, that+healing can get him at least to Middle, I think.
Deis: 4.35. This variant alone. Speed, damage, ID! But that whole Shed thing doesn't work as well in the DL against a lot of fighters, and for those who block ID and have Mdef (or Thunder res), she's slowed down. A nasty Heavy, but spoilable.
Jean: 3.3. ID isn't as accurate as we thought, still a Middle doing mostly the expected ID thing.
Katt: 2.8. Ooof. Man, she wants that final weapon. Speed is great, but damage is average and durability is bad.
Nina: 3.45. Well, without Death having that blistering accuracy, that's a hit. Knowing her actual Pdur is also a hit. Certainyl speed makes her...better than Jean, but that 63% Pdur means that she will be facing some OHKOs in Middle.
Rand: 3.45. Hates status, but is nasty to outslug (even with that speed, not many Middles are 2HKOing). But...status, it's still there.
Spar: 2.7. Still not very good, but an improvement. Now with borderline 3HKO damage and a bad MDef spoiler with Idle. Not really much worse than Katt.
Sten: 3. Really close to borderline. Got a bit more speed and relatively more damage than before. 3HKO off that speed is pretty nice. The Idle weapon is nice against low Mdef enemies.
...into the nightfall.

Dhyerwolf

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Re: Division Rankings rambling.
« Reply #59 on: January 12, 2014, 08:19:58 AM »
And updated numer log
Games Included
AI, BoF 2, Brig, EP, FE 7, FE 10, FF 13, Grandia 3, Lost Odyssey, MK 2, Shadow Hearts 3, TitS

Number Log
Tibarn- 5
Naesala- 4.9
Nailah- 4.75
Shania 4.75
Johnny 4.65
Caineghis- 4.55
Ryu 4.55

Deis- 4.35
Ike- 4.35
Et- 4.3
Raze- 4.25
Elincia- 4.2
Ulf- 4.2
Fang- 4.15
Hilda- 4.15
Lyn- 4.15
Athos- 4.1
Delsus- 4
Estelle- 3.95
Klein- 3.95
Yuki- 3.9
Hector- 3.85
Snow- 3.85
Thage- 3.85
Vanille- 3.85
Norn- 3.8
Florina, Guy, Legault, Stefan- 3.8
Agate- 3.75
Kloe- 3.75
Olifen- 3.75
Rebecca- 3.75

Matthew- 3.7
Alfina- 3.65
Ares (EP)- 3.65
Joshua- 3.65
Puniyo- 3.65
Sazh- 3.65
Tolten- 3.65
Kaim- 3.6
Skrimir, Ulki- 3.6
Pepperoni- 3.5
Seth (LO)- 3.5
Raki (EP)- 3.5
Mia, Rolf, Sain, Serra- 3.5
Hope- 3.45
Lightning- 3.45
Marietta- 3.45
Nina (BoF 2)- 3.45
Rand (BoF 2)- 3.45
Ulrika- 3.45
Iria- 3.45
Canas, Tauroneo- 3.45
Alexei (EP)- 3.4
Retica (EP)- 3.4
Zane- 3.4
Fiora, Nephenee, Nealuchi- 3.4
Lita- 3.35
Boyd, Edward, Haar, Micaiah, Soren, Volug, Zihark- 3.35
Jansen- 3.3
Sed- 3.3
Dryst, Zemeckis, Brangien, Shiraha- 3.3
Brom, Calill, Dart, Gareth, Mordecai, Raven, Titania- 3.3
Delsus- 3.25
Marie (EP)- 3.25
Danved, Jill, Kent, Volke- 3.25
Ashley (EP)- 3.2
Enna- 3.2
Mack- 3.2
Scherazad- 3.2
Vaynard, Dinadin, Bahamut, Escalados, Isfas, Batercus, Merriott, Seraph- 3.2
Jaffar, Janaff, Kieran, Kurthnaga, Oswin, Ranulf- 3.2
Glynne (EP)- 3.15
Logue (EP)- 3.15
Reyna (EP)- 3.15
Cador, Lance- 3.15
Malakov, Pent, Rath, Renning- 3.15
Bow- 3.1
Nolan- 3.1
Yun- 3.1
Chloe- 3.05
Frank- 3.05
Esmeree, Paternus- 3.05
Erk, Heath, Kyza, Lethe, Louise, Lowen, Oscar- 3.05

Goto- 3
Olivier- 3
Ricardo- 3.0
Sten- 3.0
Tiamat (Brig), Pegasus- 3
Hawkeye, Lyre, Tanith, Vaida- 3
Fafnir (Brig), Phoenix, Salamander- 2.95
Bastian- 2.95
Dahna- 2.9
Vivian (EP)- 2.9
Cai, Lyonesse, Holygriff- 2.9
Bartre, Fiona, Ilyana, Marcia, Priscilla, Wil- 2.9
Komori (EP)- 2.85
Lecarra- 2.85
Isadora- 2.85
Katt- 2.8
Lily- 2.8
Mao- 2.8
Ming- 2.8
Natan- 2.8
Sarah- 2.8
Maneater, Vampire Lord (Brig)- 2.8
Lucia, Sothe, Heather, Vika- 2.8
Stein (EP)- 2.75
Bilcock, Fenrir, High Centaur, Titan- 2.75
Geoffrey, Lucius, Mist, Muarim- 2.75
Spar- 2.7
Sigrun- 2.75
Nasir- 2.65
Gish, Loufal, Meltorfas, Lizard Guard, Poseidon, Satan- 2.65
Irina (EP)- 2.6
Levatte (EP)- 2.6
Tita- 2.6
Velnor (EP)- 2.6
Millia, Millet, Dao- 2.6
Dorcas- 2.6
Eliwood- 2.55
Cooke- 2.5
Filo, Bronze Golem- 2.5
Meg, Oliver, Renault, Sanaki- 2.5
Leonardo- 2.4
Yuri (EP)- 2.4
Morholt- 2.4
Zerafin- 2.3
Astrid- 2.3
Nena (EP)- 2.25
Death Needle (Brig)- 2.25
Aran- 2.2
Rhys- 2.15
Ena, Laura (Revised), Tormod- 2 (Revised)
Fairy (Brig)- 1
...into the nightfall.

Dhyerwolf

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Re: Division Rankings rambling.
« Reply #60 on: January 19, 2014, 06:19:43 AM »
Grandia 2
Ryudo- 3.15. Sliiiightly better than Roan since he's a little better against FEers (some MT at least!). Low Middle works. Fast, some status blocking (like the whole cast), Silence Sword could spoil...Mint!
Elena- 3.8. Heavy by the skin of her teeth. Feels like a bit much for Middle. Fast, (barely) turn 1 Silence/Tech Lock, Some Sleep Locking that really good against those with Bad Mdef, Lots of Healing+Speedy, Status Immune
Mareg- 2.85. Probably a nasty Light, but speed+bad against healers (at least Roan may be able to manipulate his doubles a bit better)
Millenia- 4.4. Don't think the punch for Godlike is there. Spellbinding Eye is just a bit too slow turn 1, and boss and Mdef tend to spoil her pretty well. Silence is a little better than expected, but doesn't match her game all that well.
Roan- 3.1. Averagish, but fast. Middle, but not much of one.
Tio- 3.25. Speed is solid. Damage is a little lacking, but she has decent options with physical and magic damage, spoiling some evadable damage

G2 Girls>G2 Boys
...into the nightfall.

Pyro

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Re: Division Rankings rambling.
« Reply #61 on: February 01, 2014, 01:13:25 AM »
The Last Story:

Zael: Heavy. 100% Paralysis (ignores guarding, multiple attempts...), some good speed, damage that gets better the longer he fights, and a giant "FU" to mages. What Wizard Slayer hits is up for debate, but two things worth noting about it are that it doesn't hit a particular mage boss (but it works on another, the Necromancer I think), and it does work on mage enemies that also wield and fight with swords (certain witches).

Syrenne: Fast and hits like a truck. Low Heavy...

Yurick: Light. Fire mage with cruddy stats, basically. He's not slow like the other damage mages but he isn't exactly fast either.

Mirania: Low Middle. Infinite regen/healing that doubles as status immunity/healing. It's decent.

Callista: Low Middle. She's a lot like Mirania but a little slower to put out that first healing circle. I think that makes her a tad worse in practice. Her Spirit super-move is better though, assuming you let her use it on herself (which makes sense).

Lowell: Light. He has the slow damage magic and has to start off fights with that. He also has the cruddy physical that he can switch to if he really needs to. But his damage just isn't up to snuff and it's not like he has other saving graces.


superaielman

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Re: Division Rankings rambling.
« Reply #62 on: April 23, 2014, 01:49:34 AM »
Raze- Heavy. He's a hell of a tank, but I punt weapon ID hype on the whole and he struggles against Malak level fighters after that.

Lily: High Light. Too spoilable (Loses forever to ice defense, which is common) and has bad durability and hates healers. She's still got decent damage for the division and MK2 equips which helps a ton.

Et: High Middle. She might be a borderliner, but she runs out of gas too quickly and is walled by high defense/healers. Status she can't block is an issue as well. I might be missing something but she doesn't look that great on paper.

Yun: Low Middle. He's solidly in the division but isn't great due to fire reliance.  Better than such a suckass PC deserves.  Last Stand and Willpower at Pinch both give him a pseudo limit threat.

Puniyo: ??? Donno how to feel about Puni Sunction and that matters too much. She looks pretty bad besides for that.

Ulrika: Low Heavy. Status and Intent to destroy dovetail together very well. Curse in particular is extremely hard to block and it lets Ulrika bust silence immune healers. 

Chloe: Middle. Way way *way* too much offense for light. She has a few other tricks as well to make sure she stays in the division.

Pepperoni: High Middle. Yeesh, slow out the gate on that first turn, but still. Durable and damaging. He has no prayer of sniffing heavy without ID that isn't utter shit. Also totally fucked against earth defense.

Enna: Middle. Think his damage is good enough for that.  Kind of boring on the whole.

Goto: Light. Pretty textbook. I give him zero starting GP. Triple Volley looks marginally helpful for pressuring healers at least.
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<Ciato> he would be so kawaii as a chibi...

Jo'ou Ranbu

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Re: Division Rankings rambling.
« Reply #63 on: April 23, 2014, 02:16:11 AM »
Quote
Et: High Middle. She might be a borderliner, but she runs out of gas too quickly and is walled by high defense/healers. Status she can't block is an issue as well. I might be missing something but she doesn't look that great on paper.

The way she bursts her damage smashes healers' asses. Twinkle Moon x2 => Support Chakram => 3-2 (because SC has Et running off over 2x average speed due to insanely fast recharge) => Twinkle Moon until it doesn't work => most PCs are dead (the Chakram activates at EVERY Twinkle Moon, it adds up fast). Her issue is mainly almost always letting people get one turn, but they rarely get a second. Timed cards also help a lot against healers if she -wants-. She runs out of gas quickly, but that's more of a problem against bonafide physical walls than anything else.
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> HEY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> LAGGY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> UVIET?!??!?!
[01:08] <Laggy> YA!!!!!!!!!1111111111
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> OMG!!!!
[01:08] <Chulianne> No wonder you're small.
[01:08] <TranceHime> cocks
[01:08] <Laggy> .....

superaielman

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Re: Division Rankings rambling.
« Reply #64 on: April 23, 2014, 02:37:28 AM »
Both high defense and evasion spoil that strategy. She looks good on paper but I am not too impressed in practice. She hit a theorical CKDL downgrade pool last season.

Et, Fujin, Takaya, Kyra, Stocke, Tengaar

I can't vote on Takaya (Hi pool jobber) or Stocke but she can't really deal with Kyra or Tengaar. Fujin's a durability respect check. She doesn't look especially strong there to me.  She beats up on straight sluggers but it's hard for me to say she'd be much in the division if she goes there.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2014, 02:40:28 AM by superaielman »
"Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself"- Count Aral Vorkosigan, A Civil Campaign
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<Meeple> knownig Square-enix, they'll just give us a 2nd Kain
<Ciato> he would be so kawaii as a chibi...

Jo'ou Ranbu

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Re: Division Rankings rambling.
« Reply #65 on: April 23, 2014, 02:54:13 AM »
Both Kyra and Tengaar are pretty high-grade physical spoilers, though (Kyra and Tengaar borderline auto-win against high-grade FE Heavies, for instance). Fujin isn't -much- of a respect check, since Blind doesn't affect timed cards (Twinkle Moon x3 => Et Circle Rondo, Fujin's locked into either getting finished off by cards or by two Twinkle Moon strings). Stocke's decently durable, but he badly fails at damaging Et due to relying entirely on Fire damage - I feel his shoddy healing at most delays the inevitable. Meanwhile, Takaya just sucks and gets outslugged. She's not the High Heavy we once thought she were (different speed averages, in which she looked -a lot- better), but she's fine in the division.
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> HEY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> LAGGY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> UVIET?!??!?!
[01:08] <Laggy> YA!!!!!!!!!1111111111
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> OMG!!!!
[01:08] <Chulianne> No wonder you're small.
[01:08] <TranceHime> cocks
[01:08] <Laggy> .....

Dhyerwolf

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Re: Division Rankings rambling.
« Reply #66 on: April 23, 2014, 03:09:52 AM »
I was going to say that I would say that allowing/not allowing ID weapons certainly matters for her a ton since that's a potential match flipper on Kyra, but Et needs 7 turns for the ID hit (on the plus side, her speed is a bit better than normal because now Godly Chain Robe is the armor to use with the ID weapon. So the ID hits on average speed turn 5ish on average.

That also said Super, I would say MK 2 equips kind are pretty middling without the ID weapons (unless you allow full Aroma Material). They can block some status, but almost every armor is semi-worthless because it means giving up way too much speed. They can spoil a few pure elemental sluggers, but those sluggers better not have a passable back up or else that speed (and durability!) loss will probably be too much.

Et can do like .75 PC HP turn 1, which...I would struggle to imagine even high Fujin respect having thanks to Fujin's atrocious defense.
...into the nightfall.

superaielman

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Re: Division Rankings rambling.
« Reply #67 on: April 23, 2014, 04:56:36 AM »
Being able to get a status and ID at the same time is a pretty useful option, as is blocking an element. There are enough Suiko mages and others who rely entirely on one element that such spoiling is a big deal in the DL.


Evasion and (Possibly counters) are a big problem for Et and the entire MK cast. As far as I can see, every single attack can be blocked in the game. This is a big deal when you are relying on a lot of small hits to deal your damage.
"Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself"- Count Aral Vorkosigan, A Civil Campaign
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<Ciato> he would be so kawaii as a chibi...

Jo'ou Ranbu

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Re: Division Rankings rambling.
« Reply #68 on: April 23, 2014, 02:49:31 PM »
Counters aren't that huge a deal for the timed cards users, since those can't be countered. Evasion is, but this has always been true for pretty much every evadable physical fighter ever.
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> HEY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> LAGGY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> UVIET?!??!?!
[01:08] <Laggy> YA!!!!!!!!!1111111111
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> OMG!!!!
[01:08] <Chulianne> No wonder you're small.
[01:08] <TranceHime> cocks
[01:08] <Laggy> .....

Jo'ou Ranbu

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Re: Division Rankings rambling.
« Reply #69 on: April 23, 2014, 09:51:24 PM »
Okay, now that we have a stat topic with numbers, time for assessments on Bravely Default's jobs! Those take my usual interps in mind (harsh on items, 25% SDs, what have you).

Freelancer: Wow, 34HKO damage, guys. It takes -Mint- to lose on offense to these guys. And, in fact, their game is rather Mint-like indeed: Endure x2, spam Treat, reapply Endure as needed and alternate 3% damage thwacks and Defaults in order to slooooooooooooooooowly whittle down their opposition. Possibly worse at spoiling low-resource, decentish-damage types due to the healing being nowhere near full, but at least they get -some- status spoiling and  Stand Ground is kinda useful when your fights go on for so damned long. Low Light.

Monk: They really like getting the HP Plus skills, holy crap that defense modifier. That said, we have an overkill damage cannon - which can be either ITD or pure physical for exploiting low defenses - running off below average speed. The higher durability/speed setup sacrifices a lot of damage, but being above average speed can be the difference between winning and losing against the frail. High Heavy at worst - she doesn't like counters or good evade, but them's the breaks.

White Mage: Welp, the costs on Curaja and Holy just aren't very helpful for the stalling White Mage attemps to pull off. Reflect and Dispel have situational uses, though Reflect ain't great synergy with her durability spread. The main problem is she spends 640 MP to cast the eight Holies she needs to kill average, so she has really no room to play a defensive game if she wants to win before the next ice age (at which point she may well run out of MP anyway). She'll never kill anyone she needs to heal against without heavily sparing resources, and good luck finding someone WM doesn't need to heal against with that durability and offense. Light you go.

Black Mage: 0.75 pdur running off below average speed is a fine way to get yourself killed before getting a turn. On the other hand, you're REALLY in for it if Black Mage gets that turn: nearly 1.5x PC HP ITD overkill in dark damage or 1.1x PC HP in other three elemental flavors alongside horrendously accurate ID, Silence and Sleep in case the burst overkill ain't enough. Black Mage is brutally good at ending fights fast and it -really- shows. Drain isn't terribly relevant, but it ain't too bad either. The sheer offense even has room for further improvement (a second Poison Rod and a Mage Hat provide substantial Magic boosts), but that'd likely get Black Mage OHKOed by -Lights- and also sacrifices further speed, so I don't really see much of a point. Pretty much Rydia's logical extreme and likely a Heavy/Godlike. I'd consider Godlike straight if he had above average speed.

Knight: More one-rounding goodness! Better get used to this in this cast. Only this time we get our first bonafide physical tank - I'm not sure quite how much I respect Knight's effective physical immunity, but it's safe to say he at least puts Mog to shame with his def-maximizing setup. His killer turn isn't as impressive as what we've seen so far (1.17x PC HP? That's pretty feasible to survive) and it runs off a physical attack (so, vulnerable to good, comprehensive evade), but anyone below that either OHKOs him, statuses him or dies, which is awfully hard to do even with magic. However, he's a sitting duck outside Shield Charge: he can't possibly pressure people who survive a single Shield Charge string (while Monk has the possibility of engaging heal-locks, hoping for a P. Atk boost and also entirely bypassing defense, while Black Mage has an array of status at his disposal).  Also, being considerably slower than his fellow OHKOers so far, it's actually feasible to, say, outpace him in a race between him Default-spamming for 4x Shield Charge (the physical game with a sword is just pointless). ON THE OTHER HAND, he's a heck of a physical spoiler. Interesting case, in any event. High Heavy likely works.

Thief: Hoo boy, entirely dependant on TB speed interps this girl is. The durability varies from subpar (pdur) to trashy (mdur, that mdef score is -impressive-), but holy crap 4+ standard deviations above average is lower-end WA4 boss speed under my views and TB caps. So, Default, survive a hit, Default, slam a 3-2 against most people and drop 1.35x ITD PC HP on the enemy's head. It's almost like she's playing an Assault Buster game, only trading the crazy high reliance on enemy stats for egregious durability and little way to apply continuous pressure. The parasitic healing game actually has theoretical uses, but I'm not sure how often they'd get to see play given how decisive Godspeed Strike is. Her ability to pressure the enemy at base isn't any better than Knight's and she's even more of a sitting duck after running out of BP. I'm kneejerking, given my leniency with TB speed, she hovers in the Middle/Heavy border (and I'm still on the fence about allowing Default's damage halving) from my end. Gets A LOT worse if you're harsher on TB interps.

Merchant: Welp, ITD 1.6x PC HP overkill, everything else sucks. At least it rams into physical immunity and good evade! My limits on Merchant money spending certainly don't even nearly ram into the damage she can pull off, though she runs into similar durability woes as the other blitzers. High Heavy.

Spell Fencer: Annnnnd we're back to the damageless losers. Spending a turn to buff your damage to 21% average is a waste of time and the best Drain Sword does is outpacing Raja offense. Black Mage's status game makes a return here, though: Brave x4 => Death Sword => Attack x3 and off we go. Unfortunately, this strategy is kinda vulnerable to really high evade and being below average speed does no favors to an ID whore. To boot, none of the other status options are terribly attractive either without a better overall package (the damage's so bad that he's basically -guaranteed- to have a bad run or three with Sleep and Silence only really works against mages with a REALLY bad physical - as in they'd still risk winning running like 7HKO-level backups. Poison might help with that, but uh guys he's not in -Light-). Still, kinda hard to argue with crazy accurate ID off decent durability and statusblockers. Heavy.

Time Mage: From one extreme of the damage spectrum to the other. Time Mage's essentially a non-ITD variant of Black Mage running off similar durability and speed, but sporting a killer turn of fucking 2.4x PC HP. Given how much of a OHKO machine (both ways!) TM is, her speed manipulation and limited evade spoiling games are kinda pointless. Stop serves a similar purpose to Sleep and Graviga, if you ignore the damage cap issues, could also have theoretical uses (75% mHP damage is pretty cool in a vaccuum!). Heavy/Godlike once again.

Ranger: Holy crap Black Mage-level pdur on a fighter and even worse mdur than Thief. At least she's above average speed! Anyhow, past the miserable survivability, she actually misses a two-rounding by -a hair- (physical => Brave x4 physical), and she starts heal-locking average once she has at least 1 BP in store (since she now can afford a Multiburst in the Brave string). Past that, she does two-round anyone below average durability off insane accuracy and one-rounds the frail, so you could do worse - she could also trade some damage for -even worse durability- if she REALLY needs to one-round something. Middle, maybe?

Summoner: 0.66x pdur off Knight-level speed and magic durability only slightly better than Thief, are you fucking KIDDING me? Summoner actually manages to two-round average (and could progressively grow into a one-rounding, but off those MP costs, don't count on it), but holy crap, -Lights- can 2HKO him right and left. Rule of Tim applies pretty fiercely here - on the other hand, Light's also fraught with slow, non-durable types. It's a weird balance. Light/Middle, as Pyro postulated? Could just be a High Light, though.

Valkyrie: It's Kain without elemental resists, a Chaos Shield clone and slightly better damage. Also doesn't get arguably owned by defend whoring. Jumping is actually self-sustaining in BP costs, since every turn where Valkyrie's not in the field means a turn where no BP is spent (thus, accumulated). Still, the same struggles given to Kain apply here, 4HKO damage just isn't what you want when playing a pure slugfesting game. High Light.

Red Mage: Relies on BRAVELY DEFAULT POISON to win the average fight, so you know we've got a winner here. The skillset does some fascinatingly weird things, though, between Reflect, Silence, Sleep, the shoddy healing and Protect/Shell. One of the coolest Lights ever, feels like the deranged test tube child of Melody Vilente and Strago Magus.

Salve-Maker: Storebought-only here. Well, the healing is really awesome and the durability, though sketchy, could be worse. Toxic Item actually isn't that bad for offense (four-rounding is kinda questionable, but can be worked with. Poison is a decentish ripple, as is the MP busting). Unfortunately, Inoculate is only very situationally useful, but what can ya do. As typical, Brave shenanigans also help against the frail. Likely a Middle, all in all. If you allow Dragon Fangs/Norende shop, though, he skips straight to Godlike. That buffing game gets vicious and Feel No Pain is ridiculously good when you have actual blitzing to play a Hail Mary game with (ESPECIALLY if you allow multiple Shadowflares, holy fuck pumping out 2x ITD PC HP on the Brave-blitz with gorgeous impunity).

Performer: So many good buffs, so -little- to use them with. Performer would kill to have healing here, it'd actually give her long-term mileage out of her comprehensive buffing game. As is, you have a fast, somewhat frail slugger whose damage needs to be buffed to reach 20HKO territory (being Mint-level offense otherwise). Puny

Pirate: An actually flexible Bravely Default slugger, why I would never. Both Defang and Shin Smash are great, giving Pirate a nice leg-up on his foes, and Shell Split's damage boost is also handy. That said, the money lies mainly on the killer turn, which, depending on setup, can one-round the frail or just one-round average. Still, having the crippling options is nice. A cool High Heavy.

Ninja: If you're physically reliant and slower, you already lost. Ninja can't really do a whole lot besides that, but the decent base speed and possibility to make it higher -do- make this a pretty high mountain to climb. Weirdass Heavy.

Swordmaster: Uh wow. What a load of work. You kinda can't ignore the stances here due to the massive speed they have - good thing ramming into them just halves damage if he's going for the specialized counters and not even that otherwise! The main problem here is really that the counters kinda suck for damage - I mean, the damage halving on Nothing Ventured and Before Swine means they eventually manage wins against an average stats and damage dueller, but the strategy badly fails against healers - sorta like Leehalt minus. Their damage is just so awful outside counters they can't even really hope to reasonably finish anyone off post-counter spamming. Light/Middle is likely right.

Spiritmaster: Some BD duellers like emulating bosses from other games, and Spiritmaster chose to mimic Augst Henriksen. Loses to anyone who has pretty much any sort of backup to elemental damage and risks struggling even against the rare dueller who doesn't. What a sad fate for one of the game's most powerful in-game classes. Puny.

Arcanist: Yet another OHKOer, but this time he's got above average speed! Which is good, because 0.63 pdur is -ugly- and that mdef won't help matters either. Regardless, his overkill is somewhat easier to deal with, since, in spite of clocking in at over 1.4x PC HP, it's entirely Dark-reliant and also rams into mdef. Corpse could be useful in theory, but I can't imagine who would possibly survive an Arcanist blitz yet fail to drop him in the  turns needed for the ID to kick in. High Heavy.

Templar: Welp, I think I -do- allow Default to reduce damage for the Templar due to her unique skill, so she's all about tanking all day with that stupendous pdef and then unleashing some hell. Too bad a 4x Desperation string only deals 73% PC HP, but at least she can mount two of those in a row, so she ain't bad in a straight slugfest and has a decent recourse against the openly physically frail.  Heal-locks the frailish as well, so it could be worse - though that has to watch out for the terrible speed. Middle.

Dark Knight: The best durability/speed combo out of the OHKOers, but also the one most reliant on HP. Fortunately, no matter what range she stays at, Dark Knight's going to have a tool to apply one-rounding, be it Dark Nebula spamming, be it the ITD threat of Minus Strike, so you either immune physicals, tank the horrifying offense or die. Lives or dies by blitzing, but it's an interesting razor's edge game. Low Godlike works.

Vampire: What a mess of a skillset. Battle Thirst on whatever doesn't resist it is pretty much guaranteed victory, but I'm not sure what kind of immunity I'd see it ramming into. Past that, he's either relying on shakier status (I mean, Charm and Paralysis are accurate, but have erratic duration and Charm in particular gets undone by any damage Vampire does) or running that fascinating parasitic buffing game, which leads him to slowly tower his way to victory. Bypassing defenses and blocking fire likely makes Vampire weep, but how -often- do you see that combo in play? Granted, either one when status isn't an option already gives the guy problems. Weirdass package, but feels honestly very powerful. Heavy/Godlike, sure.

Conjurer: Stacking Susano-o and Promethean Fire hands her a 96% PC HP killer turn, which is all fine and dandy until you realize she's running off Black Mage pdur, Arcanist mdur and below average speed. On the other hand, the evade setup with Hresvelgr gives her a nice spoiling tool against those reliant on basic physicals - which she uh kinda NEEDS in that case because it completely neuters any sort of offensive game she could possibly muster. The other buffs could be pretty potent, but, much like Performer, just don't really pan out well without healing. Light/Middle, I suppose? Mostly out of the physical spoiling game, which is likely terrifying in Light.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2014, 08:01:11 PM by Jo'ou Ranbu »
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> HEY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> LAGGY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> UVIET?!??!?!
[01:08] <Laggy> YA!!!!!!!!!1111111111
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> OMG!!!!
[01:08] <Chulianne> No wonder you're small.
[01:08] <TranceHime> cocks
[01:08] <Laggy> .....

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Division Rankings rambling.
« Reply #70 on: April 23, 2014, 09:59:21 PM »
Pressure Point can be used twice immediately and easily KOs all but the highest-HP PCs. I don't think its BP cost is that big an issue.

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Jo'ou Ranbu

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Re: Division Rankings rambling.
« Reply #71 on: April 23, 2014, 11:23:55 PM »
2 base BP means it can't be used twice in a row without Default (-1 from just getting a turn, another -1 for a Brave, so Monk's at -4 after the first Pressure Point. That's the limit for negative BP). It's the same problem with Godspeed Strike.

EDIT: It's 1 BP! Nevermind. Why is Godspeed Strike 2 BP again?
« Last Edit: April 23, 2014, 11:28:33 PM by Jo'ou Ranbu »
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> HEY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> LAGGY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> UVIET?!??!?!
[01:08] <Laggy> YA!!!!!!!!!1111111111
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> OMG!!!!
[01:08] <Chulianne> No wonder you're small.
[01:08] <TranceHime> cocks
[01:08] <Laggy> .....

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Re: Division Rankings rambling.
« Reply #72 on: April 23, 2014, 11:49:51 PM »
Because you get it earlier and it is on a support skill set so has some opportunity cost to equip it.  Monk's utility skills apparently don't counter the benefits of theft (which BD does have an okay steal list so far from what I have seen!).
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Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Division Rankings rambling.
« Reply #73 on: April 24, 2014, 12:55:45 AM »
Bravely Default, of course:


I'm not sure how much I respect default as halving damage. Depends how many PCs use it often no doubt.


Freelancer: Endure every 3 turns, and turtle with Treat. This actually works out pretty okay. Gets thrashed by any status it can't block (ANY), and any sort of limit or stall-breaker (it's a non-infinite stall I'd actually respect FF13 summon against), and any sort of spiky defence-ignoring damage (DQ crits) but it can actually slowly punch through more of Light than you'd think.

Monk: Below average speed but OHKOs average, or overkills if defence isn't an issue. Does not like counters much (most FE beats him due to being average speed and finishing on a counter). The speed build may be better pretty often actually, Default then unleash a low OHKO, same weaknesses apply though. High Heavy sure.

White Mage: Needs almost all her MP just to kill with Holy unfortunately, which doens't leave much for healing of buffing. The pdur isn't even a major concern here, which is a bad sign. Light.

Black Mage: Very dangerous if he gets a turn, has OHKO damage of several elements (all ITD) and a bunch of status which mostly serves to get past counters. Sluggish and fragile are big limits on the performance, though. Heavy.

Knight: Holy shit, dual shield Supercharge is dumb. Physical immune with OHKO damage. Good mages can deal with her, but not very well. Status is the way to go and BD blockers aren't too bad. High Heavy.

Thief: Default twice, Godspeed Strike twice, collect victory. With all the speed, this works pretty well. Makes a -huge- difference as to whether you let Default work though since Thief isn't likely to take a hit while not defaulting. I'll just say Middle/Heavy for now, the interp call likely makes the division difference.

Merchant: Fuck this why does it have damage. Heavy. Like Black Mage (better pdur, worse mdur) except worthless at damage in-game.

Spell Fencer: Instant death whore. Also Silence whore if the opponent is REALLY helpless when silenced. I don't think she's really good for much else, Sleep is too unreliable to win with that damage, and it's difficult to use both it and poison simultaneously without going into huge BP negatives. Still makes Heavy because yeah instant death and non-fail durability. Doesn't like evasive FE though (counter each failed ID attempt!).

Time Mage: Hello FF5, I've played you before. Well over 2x overkill if he gets a turn. Durability and speed... see Black Mage. So very similar to BM, except he kills a huge number of bosses, too. High Heavy.

Ranger: I'm surprised Ranger didn't get more damage. Has a 6HKO (often 5HKO) and evade won't help, so can often win in 2-3 turns and is fast... but ugh, that durability. Middle.

Summoner: See Ranger, except harder to counter due to unreflectable NE MT magic being the best damage type pretty much. On the other hand, much slower, and more fragile, and a bit less damage, and can run out of MP which makes heal-locks difficult. High Light.

Valkyrie: A number of fighters get abilities which allow them to actually look like in-game BD physical classes. Valkyrie (along with Spell Fencer) does not, so the damage just looks bad. It's depressing that Crescent Moon does less damage in the DL than I had it doing in C2. Uh anyway, hope to hell the opponent can't heal/buff, use Spirit Barrier to extend own durability, and start Jumpin'. Light.

Red Mage: POIZN hype, aw yeah. It's a little hard to get that game going, since the healing really isn't great and missed sleeps are nasty, but it's a fun little game. Stats are better than you'd expect from Red Mage. Light/Middle.

Salve-Maker: Doesn't blitz very well, and is a bit vulnerable to heal-locks. Another huge beneficiary from Default's damage reduction, though, as Default->heal and Toxic X-Potion is very handy to avoid those 2HKOs. There's also MP killing, although I need to think about that. Middle? But yeah, don't rank/nom, of course.

Performer: Has a 20HKO once the buffs are in place (which in fairness happens easily and is permanent). With default's damage reduction allowed she can stockpile turns to half damage 3/4 of the time en route to this kill, but uh... yeah. Puny.

Pirate: Lots of damage, and Defang is great. Very versatile in how it operates, either a biltzer or Defang -> wait to finish the job. High Heavy.

Ninja: Utsusemi beats clearly non-typed damage too, so get magic or multiacting or be faster than Ninja (not easy) or get out. The damage is pretty bad though which can lead to some problems. She can -somewhat- mitigate counters (unless they're magic) but otherwise the weakensses are pretty clear. Heavy.

Swordmaster: Um. The counters are okay but they seem like they'll just lose a lot of slugfests? Know Thine Enemy 4HKOs (which most duellers deal with), the physical counter is about half as damage but halves damage, the magic counter is a bit better (5HKO but halves incoming damage as well) so useful against pure mages... maybe. Light/Middle and a headache. Too bad the damage is so awful or she could brave-blitz to finish the opponent off after trading counters.

Spiritmaster: Puny with some element spoiling which will occasionally spoil those COMPLETELY reliant on elements, but since he's got a 60HKO or so (less with refreshing Spirit Ward every 3 turns) it really does need to be complete. And uh even then he may run out of MP before killing.

Arcanist: Lots of goofy tricks, but screw them, Inter x4 for the win. If dark is blocked, instead Corpse then Default and survive 1.5/2 enemy attacks... off bad durability, so probably not. She's faster than the other OHKO mages though so is probably the best despite the dark reliance and even lower durability? High Heavy.

Templar: Default a few times, unleash hell. Sadly this will need at least two turns against most. Middle? Even if I don't allow normal default damage reduction I'll allow some version of it here.

Dark Knight: Bravely Default OHKOer. So that means they're probably... wait, they're not fragile? And above average speed? Oh but it's dark reliant... oh wait not really, thanks to Minus Strike. Low Godlike. The way Dark Nebula dominates is a little different from in-game, but it's still a nice translation.

Vampire: Has a bunch of status, mostly Charm and paralysis which are a bit flaky, and battle thirst. I'm not sure what blockers I'd see getting that, but yeah it's a win if not blocked. When that's out, physical tanking is the main game. Against mages and those with ITD who can null the status (or null fire and battle thirst; the other statuses are probably too flaky for Vampire to win without fire), though, Vampire is out of luck. The whole package is a headache and I'd love to see a proving grounds but definitely either Heavy or Godlike, probably not too far from the border either way.

Conjurer: There are buffs but the damage/speed/durability is too weak to support them (needs 7 actions to kill average, and it's of a terrible type, individual evadable physicals...)... except buffing to perfect evade. Perfect evade is certainly handy to have and will beat some Light; this is basically Kimahri minus Lancet and with worse stats. (...)


Selected bosses... i.e. plot-important people and Holly. Some minor but predictable spoilers here, the larger spoilers are guarded of course.

Holly: We know the story here, right? Middle. Healing which can wall damage up to around 56% of average PC, and not much else beyond good durability.

Einheria: Boss dragoon. Has a OHKO jump so you'd better be able to do something on the off turns to mitigate that (although I could see disrespecting this move some because you're highly encouraged to default against it in-game). If you can you just need to deal with a big bucket of HP + Spirit Barrier to make it worse. High Heavy.

Kamiizumi: Um yeah Know Thine Enemy is gross in a duel. 3x overkill counters? Not even Mewtwo can really deal with that (and it gets worse if he can predict your damage type and you're a mage). Below half of his 3 PCHP he can dispense with that nonsense and do pretty close to that once on his own turn, crucial for tipping a slugfest. And has over 3PCHP? Holy crap, High Godlike. I guess physical walls can deal with him but Fou-Lu has a difficult fight here which says all you need to know. I guess anyone who attacks both sides at once can get around Know Thine Enemy, but I believe that's the only way?

Victor: Low 2HKO, kinda sluggish, very tanky. Walling Holy helps but not much since his physical is okay. Low Godlike.

Victoria: As Victor, only a bit less durable (still close to 4PC), with a less blocked element and the ability to brave-blitz and corpse to kill healers. Low Godlike.

Braev: Total badass. Defaults as much as he wants (damage quartering? Ick), then you die. Then he does it again because his HP is monstrous. High Godlike, again only really fears physical walls and even then he matches up well.

Alternis: For the first half of the battle, whatever 2HKO dark damage. For the second, ITD 3PCHP overkill. I should probably mention that his HP is, like the other C4 bosses, ridiculous. High Godlike.

Vampire asterisk: Rank Sufal Mass! Anyway Vampire is good times; he can effectively put out OHKO damage every turn against PCs and the durability is not bad, if a step down from the previous bosses. He also can't do anything to someone with standard boss immunities, ever (at least if you restrict bosses to their in-game BP restrictions as I do). I dunno what you wanna call that, we'll say Heavy.

Conjurer asterisk: Okay after that little relapse we're back to the bosses who are silly good. 2x overkill damage to either defence, solid 2.5-3 range durability, kinda slow but who cares, High Godlike.


No stat topic for the final bosses but applying some mental math to go from Hard->Normal...

I wouldn't even read these last two if you care about gameplay spoilers.

Piercer of boundaries: OHKO physical with a BP recoil, what I assume is OHKO magic, can default then dispel+get even more damage, bunch of nasty status tricks just in case. Durability's excellent (5PCish?) and speed is actually averagish instead of bad like most of the other bosses. High Godlike.

Not actually a snake: Again decent speed, though durability's not as good (still uh 3PC+). Accurate instant death and solid damage which can be buffed to what I assume is OHKO? The main gimmick is sealing off all but Defend and Summon Friend which is a headache in the DL. Godlike regardless, though, but less ridiculously good than a number of the rest! Bit of a gap between plot and gameplay power there, but I doubt anyone is too upset by this.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2014, 07:10:42 AM by Dark Holy Elf »

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Re: Division Rankings rambling.
« Reply #74 on: April 25, 2014, 02:27:47 AM »
Kamizumi faces no restriction on when he can start Bravex2->Physical 3 times. He can do that right from the start I am fairly certain (though I think his first two turns may be locked in). He just does nothing BUT that below 25% HP.