Division Rankings rambling.

[Dhyerwolf]

Riou- Forgiver Sign just a hair under 2 PC HP damage to me and ITD to boot. However, while he's fast, he's limited in that a lot of the nasty Godlike bosses that he could OHKO will neutralize him first. 4.7

DLwise: Okay, looking at his record, he may arguably beat Miguel (under some CC boss HP viewpoints), Asgard, Luca Blight, Galcian and Lavos. Seeing this raised my impression a little.

In the DL: By some Miguel HP interp
Amada- Slow 5HKOer. 2.15

Boot Bait! Who cares for plot relevance, but you are hyper forgettable and bad

Anita- Hair above average in basically all stats and damage. 3.2

Boot Bait- No plot importance, nor anything really going for her dueling wise.

Bob- Great fun. Crazy speed while transforming, at which point he cuts physicals by 80% and 2HKOs. Fails against healers hard core, but fun slugger. 3.4

Bolgan- Slower 5HKOers. 2.0

DL Wise: Had the extreme luck of facing Jogurt

Boot Bait. For all that he has enough face time...this game is riddled with horrible punies, and that Tech makes him horrible in game.

Camus- Enough punch to perhaps grab OHKOers occasionally, and at least a on the right side of the speed curve (if only generally enough to beat average, it's very important) and enough defense to be worth noting. Doesn't feel like he quite has the overall package for Heavy though. 3.65

DL wise: Probably OHKOs Taya (albeit not really digging into that much)

Chaco- Fast 6HKOer, but now frail. 2.2

Boot bait. Plot relevance, but again, not enough to overcome the fact that Suikodens have a million characters and that he's bad

Clive- Generally worse in all ways compared to S1...except evade, which is a lot better. Probably comes out about the same. 2.85

Still boot bait.

Eilie- 5HKOs with slightly above average speed. 2.2

Flik- Now with OHKO damage, but less speed. I guess this form is a little better overall, but both feel pretty close...3.95.

Freed- Slow 5HKOer who is locked into an element. 2.05

DL Wise- Oops, probably shouldn’t have beaten Rahal since Rahal cuts his damage 40% with his default.

Futch- Fast 5HKOer. Never wants this form. 2.4

Gabocha- 5HKOer whatever. 2.15
Boot!

Gengen- God so many of these. 2.15
Boot!

Georg- Not like he wants this form, but great for a S2 fighter. Fast, evasive, but still rocking that hideous Mdef. 3.2

Gijimu- 2HKOs, albeit more slowly than average speed. Def is cute enough to perhaps get him into Middle cleanly. 3.15

DL Wise: Double Light champ was cool (although I’m sure I voted for Porom)

Hix- Slightly above average speed 3HKO with an ability to ream healers. Feels very borderline and that he could even be low Middle. 3.0.

DL Wise: Should have beat Katt

Humphrey- Taking S2's slot as the defense lord. 2.9, similar to Kwanda

Jowy- OHKO, great speed. 4.50. Very borderline, as we know well. OHKO isn't really great enough to be sure that he'll be OHKOing and he doesn't really have any other tricks, so maybe  a little lower?

DL Wise: Should take Ryu (OHKOs him under the highest damage average). Most everything else was right.

Kahn- 2HKOs off decent durability. Another solid high Light type. 2.9.

Karen- Slow, undamaging, undurable. 2.1whatever.
Boot. Late, dull, plotless

Kasumi- S1 is better if only because of being truly ITE, but still a middle here. 3.15

Killey- Little bit less durable Camus. 3.5

Kinnison- At least he 4HKOs. 2.55
Boot.

Koyu- That speed is definitely worth something. 2.6

Long Chan Chan- 3HKOs, speed, dat HP+evasion. Decent Middle slugfester. 3.35

DL Wise: Should have beaten Mara (he 2HKOs first)

Lorelai- Doesn't use this form, but solid. 4HKOs, on the right side of the speed curve, few quirky runes, some evade. 2.7

Lo Wen- Water Rune is great, Knockdown is cool, SL off good speed is good. 2.9. Feels like she deals with a lot of Light realy well, but struggles in Middle with that damage.  She can't really put out much damage under SL, so she does rely on mages going down quick.

DL Wise: Ouch, should have lost to Eiko. Silent Lake doesn’t last long enough and Eiko’s durability is passable enough. Stun helps, but not enough there since Eiko getting 1 turn to heal up basically throws off Lo Wen’s whole game.

Luc- Speedy 2HKOer. 3.3

Mazus- Massive, slow elemental damage. Doesn't like status, but durability is suprisingly good. 4.

DL Wise: Should have beaten Alena

Meg- Better damage than Lo Wen, but the durability downgrade hurts. Maybe about the same in practice. 2.85

DL Wise: Loses to Estella likely (Can’t do enough damage under SL). Perhaps Galleon as well (she hates his defense, but not mathing it out)

Miklotov- 2.5. 4HKOs, solid defense, nothing else special (well, legal Fire halving)

Millie- 3.5. Allow the Lightning rune=solid OHKO damage. Jeane remix/+ (Better PDur)
Also Boot!

Mukumuku- 1.00
Boot!

Nanami- 4HKOs+Speed. 2.75

DL Wise: Loses to Chisato, who just 2HKOs her. Loses to Karyl is my strong gut as well.

Nina- I allow her the Fire Rune, so 3.35. Near OHKO, but slow

Oulan- Lacking damage and speed, but her durability is cool (albeit not amazing). 2.35
DL Wise: Loses to Banon (yeah, she’s not dealing with his infinite healing and better speed)

Pesmerga- Average damage, very good against physicals. All Fire though. Better than S1, not completely dull. 2.9

Rikimaru- Slow 4HKOer. 2.25
Boot!

Rina- Slow 2HKOers, albeit more solidly than say Kahn. Granted, Kahn has durability. 2.85

Sheena- Slow 3HKO that spoilers evadable physicals. 3.15 maybe, doesn't want this form.

Shin- Borderline 2HKO that healers hate. Slow keeps him around L/M border. 3.00

Shiro- Wants game to end at midpoint. 2.2.
Boot!
DL Wise- Should rightfully lose to Noel most likely (don’t have 6HKO damage. Just don’t). Akaghi is a hideous, hideous rob beyond all belief

Sid- Sigh. 2.00
Boot

Sierra- Elegantly versatile. 4.3. Hard to deal with unless you block her damage types
DL Wise: Should have lost to Rika and likely WA 1 Jack (faster, turn 1 status…as least as far as testing that we have shows)

Simone- 2.1. Boot

Stallion- I allow the Wind Rune, giving him a very fast 2HKO. 3.3
Boot

Tai Ho- 2.75

Tengaar- 85% damage, little slow on damage, spoils  evdable phys. 3.7. Very close to Heavy, and could be there.

DL Wise: The site failed when I tried to look her up

Tir- Better damage than S1, but way worse speed. Not a good tradeoff. 4.6

Tsai- 2.5. Still going...

Valeria- Fast 2HKO, but not as much damage. 3.45

Viki- 2

Viktor- S1 was faster, but had that accuracy. 2.5

Vincent- Not good, but could be worse. 4 shots of healing, limited magic. Evade does pair with healing. 2.65
DL Wise: Not sure how he got past Elly, but probably should beat Rufus
Wakaba- Good speed, HP and evade. 4HKOs. Can sometimes be tripped up by Fire res. Solid Light, but I think the last of punch holds her back from Middle 2.9
DL Wise: Loses to Tellah (I think he should OHKO and isn’t OHKOed here). Unlike Oulan, speed+better accuracy should help with Banon

[Tide]

Cold Steel 2 rankings because I have the averages done and want to hear other people's thoughts. I've spoken to Pyro, Snowfire and CK, but nothing regarding which division they would potentially be in (since we were all waiting for averages).

As a general note, this cast is sort of weird in that everyone is very much magically reliant. That's where all their damage comes from. So if you have great magic defense (Yulie) or magic immunity (Worker 8), it will generally give the cast problems. Also, most of the big damage comes from their high tier spells which cost a lot of MP, so this cast really fears healers in general since they can't pressure offensively as say those in Skies 1/2. The exception to this is if the character has some useful craft in his or her inventory, in which case will give them to ability to maybe utilize some physicals.

Rean - No change from initial thoughts. Valimar!Rean feels very much Godlike. Goes off good speed and can dish out enough damage to kill in just a little under turn 2. Even without Valimar, Rean has his Delay game, which is basically a variant off Levin's Cancel Strike. He has his own share of advantages but shares similar flaws as Levin with this strategy. The physically immune, evasive or those with ranged counters will spoil him. Without those tools, he struggles. Bad magic damage, and ogre form is a little too CP intensive. 200 CP interps are interesting for Rean because it lets him play around in Ogre form more than 100 CP and gives him nastier status and forces enemies to block those as well. High Heavy at the very least.

Elise - Heavy. Looking at some of Super's recent proving grounds for example, she crushes most of the lower end Heavies (Auron/Serge) and can up good fights with some High Heavies and even wins some of them there (Raquel/Ness). The added freeze chance to her damage means there's a constant threat since getting hit by that is very dangerous (both the HP poison and loss of actions are quite problematic) and her healing is very fast thanks to her MQ bonus. If she gets Haste up, becomes absolutely terrifying because then she constantly doubles with her magic and the healing becomes something like 1/3 the recharge rate. Doesn't like strong physical slugfesters and common element stops her really from gaining much traction up the higher divisions, but is solid for what she is.

Toval - High Heavy. Toval just has a lot of tools even if he can't keep his strong damage up for long. He reminds me of a variant of Arnaud, basically trading in massive evade and Slow Down for a combination of status/equip options and blocking status. He can get perfect evasion and the magic evade + magic durability and mediocre healing can make him a total nuisance to put down, even by mages. And if you don't block the status, he just shuts down your offense with his crafts, then takes his merry time killing you with L1s/L2s. Lacks the punch for Godlike, but can scare a good number of Heavy challengers.

Machias - Low Middle. Rides entirely on his gimmick. Once again, I don't think most Lights can deal with 50% damage reduction and 20% regen. And if you can't deal with that, Machias wins since he can just slowly chip you down with low tier magic. Saintly Force lets him bump up Defense/Speed for more damage reduction and faster healing, so he might be slightly better in practice. I have my doubts though. For offense, he's basically screwed. He hopes you don't block Petrify because that's turn 2 and is fatal since it lasts forever. Anything past that though, and he's has serious issues. He can haste himself and apply Poison at 10% chances with his physical! Aw yeah.

Elliot - Low Heavy. Elliot was never going to be about damage in the first place. He's a staller and a pretty good one since he can drop offense, add regen, put you to sleep and then heal until the cows come home. I've theorized him again against some matches and he can hold his own against some Heavies (Auron/Magdalen/probably Fate as well). Would love to see him more in practice to be sure. Below average speed isn't a good start, but his durability isn't total garbage, so he can make it work somewhat.

Fie -  High Heavy. Ahaha, that speed is nuts. She's all about getting the Stun or ID to proc, and either one triggering is seriously bad news for the opponent. Stun adds 50% more damage to her attacks, and since you can't act during that time, she's more than happy to then slow you down and then pick you off with CS2 BASE PHYSICALS. You laugh but with link attacks being now 100% and 50% more damage on everything, its a terror. The evade is nice and can often stave off a turn, or she can use Concealing Wind to try and buy a couple more actions. Dies to pretty much anything that hits her because effective 78% durability is just amazing bad.

Alisa - Godlike. I mean, she doesn't like the damage average being higher, but 3 Radiance Arcs, two of them at 50% more damage is a lot of damage. And that's assuming you can OHKO off the bat. If you can't and she actually gets to do something, she has actual offense too and it *hurts*. Just really a question of if she's more on the lower Godlike spectrum or not.

Gaius - Middle. It's Kimahri, except with less versatility. Runs screaming from any mage but is an extreme physical spoiler with Seal/Blind and his crazy evade. Low damage doesn't help. He can sacrifice a little evade for mediocre healing and pair that up with Earth Pulse to drop S-crafts quickly, but again, any mage opponent will see through it and make it to dangerous for him to sacrifice that HP when his healing is so abysmal.

Millium - Middle. Stat are awful, but the two guards means that in practice, Millium always gets at least one turn to do something. Buffing speed to help improve casting, then dropping the big tiers down and hope that's enough. If she was fast, she could pull off that Earth Guard nonsense, but Milie is just too sluggish for that work.

Claire - Heavy. Damage isn't really her forte, but she's got 2 bad ass crafts in her inventory and she can HP/EP with items so she can last a while for them to proc. They are hard to block too and fatal on hit so the healing matters a lot to keep her afloat.

Laura - High Middle. Purgatorial Flame into Radiant Lion is enough for those that hover around average. Alternatively, she stalls until 200 CP, at which point, Radiant Lion gains another 50% more damage and potentially one shots. She kind of struggles otherwise due to the lack of EP and sluggish speed. Might be better in practice? Feels like a Vayne variant - if your durability falls within the range, she will wipe you.

Emma - Low Middle. Anybody with a 3HKO physical gives her some issues. Having below average durability and being sluggish is a bad enough combo but her damage isn't that stellar either. She's the inverse of Gaius in a way. Spoils magic heavy opponents with her evade and anti-magic tricks but has a hard time with physical duelers.

Jusis - Heavy. Damage. Has a lot of it along with a handful of options on hand that make it such that he's hard to put down. He's average stat wise, so may be worse than I'm kneejerking, but he feels like a good fit in the division.

Sharon - Low Godlike. Initiative, unevadable 100% ID is scary. Against other PCs, she's fast, accurate and can status them out. In fact, if you don't block status, you're pretty much screwed. Kind of frailish and not built for longer fights so she has some problems with bosses.

Sara - Low Heavy. Can carry that super crazy evade Gaius has got, but can back it up with damage.

Alfin - Heavy. You pretty much need to OHKO her or she makes you pay for it. It's possible that there is some combination of durability that can outlast her trick, but its a strong one and being able to defer to more EP effective spells means that she also doesn't need to drop a ton of EP on the really high tier spells like the rest of the cast. Delay resistant foes spoil her though, for all that its rare.

Angelica - High Middle. It's possible that Angie hits Low Heavy, but as CK alluded to, I think she has Claire's problem and without the EP recovery. Probably runs out of gas too quickly for all that, what she does have available lets her adapt to a bunch of situations, so she might be riding that border.

Towa - Middle. Damage is bad, but a combo of healing + Weakner means that Towa doesn't need to use the heavy tier spells as much either. She wishes she wasn't sluggish, but as is, she's a variant on Elliot it feels. Worse because she trades off his versatile buffs and better healing for EP restoration and slightly better damage output long term, which isn't as good synergy.

[Pyro]

Tide wanted my Cold Steel thoughts so here they are I guess. I assume 200 starting CP (Inns restore CP). I  am unsure about assumed status resistance. I take the kill point at ~55K, which means most of the cast can 2HKO average durabilty but I am okay with that (It kind of comes with the territory of having 200CP insta-burst damage). This and the cast's general options (statuses, blockers, damage/CT juggling to zone in on the most efficient kill) make it pretty good.

Rean: Not sure if I allow Valimar yet. Not sure how I feel about delay-loop-locking. Heavy/Godlike. Regardless he has one of the best S-Breaks so can pick up OHKOs/2HKOs really simply off good speed.

Elise: Fast Healer who regens resources with her damage. This is really quite good. Can burst damage to get a KO and has Freeze status in the wings. Not bad. Heavy-ish. Does not like water res.

Toval: He has some evade game and his non-elemental damage isn't bad. Heavy-ish.

Machias: Initiative 200% random status! Random... is not terribly scary otherwise regen + damage halving is cool. Middle.

Elliot: Slow and not very damaging but lots and lots of healing. And he has some status to work with in addition to his SCAN reducing enemies to like 1/5th of their damage. Middle/Heavy.

Fie: She's fast and has ID/stun to play with. That alone gets her to Middle-Heavy. Beyond that she can user 200CP to set up Concealment, giving her 3 free attacks (and her S-Break is still 150% because it crits under Concealment). Too bad spells don't crit under Concealment. There are games she can play to squeeze in more damage too. So she makes a decent Heavy.

Alisa: Oh hey kill her 3 times to win. Full restore including CP upon 2 of those KOs. That's cool. So she'll absolutely get off 85000 damage even if you are a hyper-fast OHKOer. Status that she doesn't block (not much of that) is still subject to this too. That's on top of what damage she can edge in during a fight. Her buffing game is decent and Altair Canon's magic debuff is nasty for reducing incoming magic damage. Insight for physicals. Some healing too. She's just... really really nasty. Did I mention her Initiative S-Craft has 200% Mute?

Gaius: Perfect evade is awesome. Not much else to him though? His options are significantly worse than others. Middle/Heavy. Perfect evasion isn't something to sneeze at.

Millium: She's slow but status blockers and nulling the first physical and magical attacks mean she may as well be fast? She has Faint, she can debuff a foe's damage. Probably makes for a High Middle.

Claire: Status whoring. Not sure how I feel about the items yet but I'd probably allow a certain $ value and access to food items (which can include good buffing!). This could make her quite good. Even besides the 100% Freeze which is cool.

Laura: So having the best S-Craft in the game really drowns out her other issues. KOs folks before they can move is a hell of a way to start a fight. If she gets a turn she can boost that damage some or spoil physicals a fair bit with Insight. She has Faint (50% nominal) and Mute (90% nominal) on top of her stuff. She's already borderline Godlike just due to the Initiative (really turn-interrupt) OHKO.

Emma: Outside of spoiling mages (75% magic evasion and Crescent Shield) Emma really doesn't have much going for her. She might be able to pull an OHKO on the magically averagish/frailish. Her speed and durability are poor however (although her speed isn't so bad when she gets going, it's not going to matter too much usually). Probably a High Middle/Low Heavy. Burst damage helps.

Jusis: Hits fast and hard. His S-Craft can let him put out 100% Seal, and he can Altair Canon-> S-Craft to score a round 1 KO. Insight helps vs Physicals, and he's quite fast when spamming wind magic. Has a variety of Damage/CT options that let him zone in for a kill. High Heavy is his most likely place. Doesn't have the options for Godlike but he's a terror for racking up damage and Seal is a good status.

Sharon: Status whore from hell. Nominally 100% ID on an S-Break is just mean. On top of that she has Juggler's status and her own Craft statuses and Chrono Burst to raise those odds... That much status whoring belongs in Heavy/Godlike. Beyond that she's pretty lacking damagewise and hasn't much in the way of options. Status whoring alone is good enough for Heavy/Godlike.

Sara: She can screw over physical fighters with Insight evade or by nuking their damage with -50% Atk. Mages face down her decent burst damage or her Speed halving debuff. So she makes it to Heavy I feel on account of the general quality of options and stats.

Alfin: Not sure how I feel about delay locking. Other than that she has a 2HKO with no S-Break, limited resources, and no status options. Middle/Heavy depending on the delay hype train.

Angelica: Good stun odds and Insight are a nice start. I need to figure out how good Emblem's damage reduction is as that could be silly. Triple Advantage might deserve some hype. And if she Dragon Boosts and gets back up to 200 CP that's going to leave a mark.

Towa: Other than some low status odds she's really lacking in options. Also her damage isn't that great and her stats are subpar. So Middle it is.

[SnowFire]

First off, amazing work that Tide did in the CS2 stat topic.  Nice!

I can't comment TOO much on Cold Steel 2, as some of the interps would probably require me to actually play CS2 and get a good sense of what seems "fair" (e.g. assumed default enemy status resistance...  ), but just from theory...

* Not sure if Pyro means "50ks" or actually around 50,000 exactly for the kill point, but holy crap the cast likes that considering the 100 CP killpoint is 53K, and it's only getting better with 200 CP.  (Laura now can pick between initiative OHKO or annihilation overkill with resolve a single Purgatorial Flame -> 200 CP S-Craft.)  I think that's a tad too nice myself.  More generally, S-Breaks are pretty dominating in the DL as-is, so I'd want a really good in-game reason to go to 200 CP starting.  (Considering that sometimes a cast gets *perfectly reasonable* stuff in-game denied because it makes the damage average wacky, so it'd need to be an amazingly good argument.  Example: FFX Overdrives, which if they started even half-full, probably need to go in the damage average thanks to Triple Overdrive making accessing them really easy.  Hence the overly harsh assumption of empty ODs.)

* More generally, since I see that Tide added in some more damage averages, I'm more inclined to use the 3-turn average killpoint of 52K myself, the 75 CT average where most characters don't use their S-Craft average is too nice.  In general, barring maybe Laura or some weird cases like Machias or MAYBE Gaius, and ignoring Alisa as a special case, characters only use their S-Craft as a finisher.  This makes the long recoil on it irrelevant in the DL.  On the other hand, the case for niceness is MP restrictions, which *are* quite relevant in the DL, and further are (probably) not very relevant in-game thanks to everyone who might be worried having EP Cut 2 as well as EP restoration items.  If I'm really bored, I might be interested in using something like a 4-turn or 5-turn average and letting characters use that as long as a fight would credibly threaten to last 3 or more turns.  This would still allow for a free S-Break at the end, CP permitting, but most characters would fall back to more MP-efficient offense, although a few characters with buffs actually do more damage on the longer-term average thanks to being able to make use of Fortuna and the like.  So....   it wouldn't help too much.  I dunno, maybe kneejerk the killpoint down to a clean 50K due to MP woes and call it a day.

* If Turn 1->Turn 2 -> Turn 3 is seen as when the damage *resolves* rather than input happens, that comes out to 31 -> 62 -> 92.  Considering that it's 26 ticks for turn 1 input, this means that in general characters can shave off around ~5-6 ticks on average by using physicals or Crafts if they need to hurry up.

Some specific character notes...  huh.  I think the cast will prove better than expected, some of those Middles are champ-powered, and same with the Heavies.  Good status-blockers matters quite a bit in the DL and this cast has 'em.  The main thing this cast hates are tanks and tanky bosses, due to the aforementioned MP woes, but those aren't actually THAT common.  Fine, the cast bites it to BoF1 Sara, but spoilers gonna spoil.

* Kneejerking, Rean's Valimar looks legal.  I say this as someone who doesn't think Call Team is legal in DQ8.  This seems closer to Yuna: a unique command that you can't miss that is closely "tide" to Rean.  So mech away in Godlike off that ludicrous speed.  (46 CT for 3 attacks?  Sheesh.)

* Sharon & Alisa are GLs too, with Alisa being the strongest in the cast.  Damage that you can't really stop even via killing her multiple times is some SMT form-shiftin' bullshit, I approve.  (I might change my mind on Sharon if I decide that enemy status resistance should be taken as much better, but eh.)

* Elise & Claire are easily Heavy.  Freeze is a pretty exotic status, neither are easy to OHKO, and they have powerful Trails status blockers.  They can both stall really well too, Elise with infinite draining & Claire with items which seem reasonable enough to allow in her case.  Jusis is Heavy too; Seal is way more commonly immuned than Freeze in the DL, but he makes up for it with better damage and a cheesy perfect evade game.

* I'd kneejerk our dear teacher on the Heavy side, but sure, remains to be seen in a PG.  Powerful evade game + good status blocking  + Attack debuff for ITE fighters + not totally fail damage that is EP-efficient = a good overall package.  There's the occasional Middle Mage that can handle this, but that feels more like Sara getting spoiled herself.

* Elliot hype would require knowing how often stat debuffs are immuned, especially by bosses, since that seems pretty key to his game.  But sure, Low Heavy at worst.

* Laura's a one-trick pony, yeah.  Still, Purgatorial Flame -> Radiant Lion is 51K damage.  That's a OHKO if I'm using 50K as the killpoint if you don't resist fire or the like.  If this trick doesn't work she is in deep, but it works pretty often.

* Angelica is weird and probably a bit of a headache what with Emblem's damage reduction apparently being untested but weirdly potent.  She seems practically impossible to kill, but has *major* problems killing herself what with that failtastic physical and harsh MP restrictions.  Still, having something like 3x effective durability backed by a few shots of healing means that she probably wins a lot of slugfests, but fails really hard against ID-immune healers or tanks.  Sure, High Middle as a guess, but she's really swingy.

* Emma's another spoiler warning.  Beats Heavy mages, loses to Low Middle fighters.

* Machias should be fun in PG.  That stall game is pretty good actually, so he'll have time to get his Petrify off more than you'd think in Middle.  Fears Fire Emblem characters and other Middles with actual damage, tho.  He might well be better than Millium, who just seems too slow at actually killing and too bad at stalling.  I'm not super-impressed with Towa's stalling, either, off that speed score.

* I don't have a good sense of Alfin or Fie's game.  Actually mathing out CTB and turn times is super-important with these two.

[Tide]

Pyro and I have had some discussions regarding starting CP. I know that Pyro considers 200 CP because there are inns in-game which you can use and they offer to restore 100 CP per rest (so do it twice, full CP bar) and you can do this before an operation.

I don't buy this myself because CP maintenance at 200 is hard. Like much harder than it is for EP maintenance (which you guessed correctly that it is relatively trivial in-game thanks to quartz that provides field EP Regen) unless you outright don't use crafts. While I can't speak for how anybody else plays, I used a combo of fighters and mages and even with a CP battery and CP Regen accessories, maintaining max CP with the fighters almost never happens. You'll typically be at around the 150 CP range at which point there is no bonus on the S-craft anyway. Also, while you CAN go into an operation at 200 CP, once it starts, the rest points inside don't restore CP so it really isn't as freely available as it might seem. 100 CP on the hand is much easier. You have items that can restore lowish amounts of CP (10-40). The game auto-fills your CP bar to 100 after certain story events. There is more room to hold 100 CP, etc. Maybe the true method is to take it at 150 CP?!

I will note though that it's a pretty consistent viewpoint for me across other games that have a third meter. I see Limit gauges for FF7 start at 0, FFX overdrives starting at 0, 0 SP for Grandia 3 characters and so on. I'm also not sure I see Call Team as legal, just as I'm not sure if I see Valimar as legal, etc. I'm sure it's the same for Pyro, so this may just be us sticking to how we view resources in the DL as a whole.

Some additional thought and comments...

Re: Towa; I actually think she might be more of High Light versus a Middle, but my kneejerk is that the healing and low status odds are too much. Against Light, which is the division with really bad offense, bad durability and the like, Towa's subpar damage and bad recovery speeds can't really be exploited. And she excels against really poor damage dealers herself since that's where the status rates and EP restoration can see play.

Re: Machias; it's not so much the "Can he petrify in time" that's the burning question. The burning question IMO is, "Is his opponent vulnerable to Petrify". And I kneejerk that answer is 'No' more often than not since Petrify is a very common status type. Sure, some casts like FE/SMRPG cast don't block it (and maybe a few others) but without it, he's much worse. I think Millie is probably better than him since the halved earth recovery delay means she can at least Regen faster but she's very weird in general. At most, he resides in mid-tier Middle. Millie's the one I want to see in a PG since I have no idea where she is.

I will also note that Alisa is probably the first PC Godlike we've had in awhile that can legit beat Belial (Vanish is very analogous to 4D Pocket - it even uses Space element!). So go her! Pyro and I had some discussion about some other tricks she can pull, which includes casting Insight, then Muting someone with her S-craft or doing Altair Cannonx2 and Insight. But yeah, she's nasty and probably deserving of a PG to see which level of Godlike she ends up in. Not keeping buffs on death sucks, but by the same token you end up needing some permanent, lasts-after-death status to really put her down which might be a better trade.

[Cmdr_King]

I'm not far enough in CSII to really comment on the cast overall, but I'm inclined to agree that 100 starting CP is the right balance.  Cold Steel gives way more CP than Sky, and the whole "plot refills start you at 100" is a nice round benchmark.  However, the game definitely expects you to spend it, and CSII in particular makes spamming base physicals to build up and conserve utterly impractical.

I already allowed call team (eating some of Guv's mp is a big contributor to seeing it as 'his') and while I don't have Valimar yet the topic suggests it's mechanically very similar and plot wise the fact that Rean can call Valimar and only Rean is already a Big Deal.

[Pyro]

The game pretty clearly allows you to get to 200 CP whenever you go into a dungeon or go off to fight something in the open-world segments. Basically the only time you can't restore CP to 200 at will is if you are locked in a dungeon. In which case you can use purchasable energy drinks or jellys or so on and restore 200 CP before a big fight if you want. Also there are times the game before big battles where your CP is restored to 200. The endgame dungeon (#1) featured putting your CP to 100 if it was less than that after bosses, but, you could get it back up between bosses. Magic becomes so potent that CP is only really good as a finisher. The analogy I consider is that it is like PS4 where you can't restore skill usages mid dungeon but we still consider them full. It is actually better a case for 200CP than that since you can also restore it with storeboughts and in battle. And you don't use base physicals to generate CP, as multi target spells are as if you used a base physical on every enemy you hit. This naturally leads to 200 CP when you are spamming awesome magic (almost all MT) and not using CP for base crafts (not too much reason to endgame).

Delay lock as a strategy probably requires me allowing Impede 1/2, which ends up being fine for Rean/Fie. I'll probably consider them as 100% Delay effectiveness if they take as many Impdes as they can (1&2 for Rean, Impede 2 for Fie). I'll think about it regarding Alfin's SCAN.

Damage averages and aversge CT for a turn are interesting things. The 3 and 5 turn 200CP charts  I constructed were consistent with the ~50K I said. 3 turn more , 5 turn a bit less. Tide's lists assumed usage of 'best damage' regardless of CT which gets a little silly in some case (Emma using fire magic when she gets the zany speed boost on mirage magic). I thought about the three turn and it seems a bit harsh considering it tends to flatline a PC's EP, CP, and assumes a giant recharge on the end too. That said some of the cast has neat ways to try and not fall flat on their faces in a 5 turn (buffs, Impassion). I should also note that Tide assumes 25 CT for a turn but the 3 turn and 5 turn damage chart for CT is more like 28-30. When Tide 'adjusts ' for this he comes out to a lower average.

So for 200 CP I have...

Averages:
3-turn:23586,  ~29 CT/turn
5-turn: 19277, ~27 CT/turn

Rean:
3-turn: 74775 over 76 CT (Flare Bombx3 -> 'Demon' Termination Slash)
5-turn: 86254 over 124 CT (Flare Bombx3 + Spirit U -> Autumn Leaf Cutter -> Physical -> S-Craft)

Elise:
3-Turn:66914 over 72 CT (Crystal FLoodx2->Shadow Blade->SCraft)
5-turn: 90329 over 112 CT (Crystal Floodsx5->SCraft)

Toval:
3-Turn: 69071 in 77 CT (Cross Crusade->Ragna Vortex x 2 ->SCraft)
5-Turn: 91151 damage in 125 CT (Cross Crusadex5->SCraft)

Machias:
3-Turn: 56230 in 104 CT (Yggdrasilx3, SCraft)
5-Turn: 71724 in 168 CT (Yggdrasilx4, Needle Shot->SCraft)

Elliot:
3-Turn: 56928 in 101 CT (Cross Crusadex3, SCraft)
5-Turn: 96796 in 161 CT (Fortuna, Cross Crusadex4, SCraft)

Fie:
3-turn: 55765 in 48 CT (Judgement Boltx3, SCraft)
5-turn: 69080 in 71 CT (Scud Wing, Judgement Boltx4, SCraft)

Alisa:
3-turn: 78891 in 76 CT (Cross Crusade, Altair Canon, Purgatorial Flame, SCraft)
5-turn: 119015 in 106 CT (Fortuna->Cross Crusadex3, Puragatorial Flame,SCraft)

Gaius:
3-Turn:56277 in 91 CT (Judgement Boltx3, SCraft)
5-Turn: 70787 in 141 CT (Savage Fang 2, Judgement Boltx4, S-Craft)

Millium:
3-Turn: 66705 in 84 CT (Yggdrasilx2, Ancient Glyph, SCraft)
5-Turn: 87842 in 132 CT (Yggdrasilx5, SCraft)

Claire:
3-turn: 69464 in 105 CT (Maelstromx3, SCraft)
5-turn: 89439 in 157 CT (Cross Crusadex4, Maelstrom, SCraft)

Laura:
3-turn: 85636 in 108 CT (Crystal Floodx3, SCraft)
5-turn: 90136 in 174 CT (True Armor Break, Crystal Floodx3, Forte, SCraft)*
*(Her 5 turn could be more efficiently described as a 4-turn by forgoing Forte, but this captures her 'cliff' of 5 turns)

Emma:
3-turn: 86369 in 103 CT (Phantom Phobia->Claimh Solarion, Purgatorial Flame, SCraft)
5-Turn: 124977 in 134 CT (Crescent MIrror, Phantom Phobiax3, Purgatorial Flame)

Jusis:
3-turn: 92002 in 73 CT (Judgement Boltx2, Ragna Vortex->SCraft)
5-turn: 133890 in 113 CT (Judgement Boltx4, Ragna Vortex, SCraft)

Sharon:
3-turn: 67099 in 64 CT (Grim Butterflyx3->Scraft)
5-turn: 97760 in 102 CT (Fortuna->Grim Butterflyx4, SCraft)

Sara:
3-turn: 74425 in 93 CT (Judgement Boltx2, Purgatorial Flame, SCraft)
5-turn: 93365 in 152 CT (Judgement Boltx5, SCraft)

Alfin:
3-turn: 73366 in 108 CT (Purgatorial Flame, Fire Bolt, Purgatorial Flame)
5-turn: 88820 in 168 CT (Phantom Phobia x4, Silver Thron)

Angelica:
3-turn: 72869 in 87 CT (Altair Canon, Dark Matter, Altair Canon, SCraft)
5-turn: 102772 in 134 CT (Fortuna, Altair Canon, Dark Matterx2, Altair Canon, SCraft)

Towa:
3-turn: 70792 in 101 CT (Crystal Floodx2, Ancient Glyph, SCraft)
5-turn: 97470 in 165 CT (Crystal Floodx5, SCraft)

Another inquiry is whether an average speed foe should get a turn at 'average PC speed' (without Charge Times) or 'Average CT that turn 1 damage is resolved on'. I tend to favor the latter, where Crafts and physicals are just very fast on initiative to balance their generally pitiful damage. This can make a big deal for folks who want to apply status with crafts. I could see not doing it but then the cast would have to get something in return to balance out the loss of having 'average speed' turn 1 damage.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Persona 5 PC rankings

My rankings base off the "fair" averages Snowfire worked with Auto-Taru factored in (I allow Personas up to L80 base as long as they don't have other Personas above L75 among their components, which disqualifies Yoshitsune at the very least, and I allow itemization on Personas only up to L75 if they're not recruitable in a Palace or Mementos, which blocks Ren's and Makoto's best stat guns, along with pushing Ann away from Despair spam and denying Yusuke his theoretical evade game... not that it'd save him with his issues, he hates the broken stuff damage averages more than anyone else), as a disclaimer. Anyhow, onto topic necromancy.

Ren Amamiya/Joker - Godlike. Fortunately he has good status options off his guns and Personas and his Persona shuffling allows for great variety besides that (he can Charge/Concentrate to OHKO both durabilities, Debilitate to utterly cripple the slugfesting effectiveness of any foe and yeah, tons of options to pick for any given fight). However, he doesn't have the off-the-cuff overkill power P3 Makoto/Minato or Yu sport to really wreak havoc. In practice, he ends up being sort of a better variant on SH2 Yuri who needs to pay more attention to his affinities, since P5 weaknesses are nasty things. More dangerous against PCs than bosses due to the sheer wealth of status options, though bosses who let him play Debilitate/Heat Riser shenanigans will pay dearly for that mistake.

Ryuji Sakamoto/Skull - Heavy. Auto-Tarucharged God's Hand is horrifying (oh dear lord 1.7x PC HP, that almost OHKOs NESS) and Ryuji's durability makes it rather hard to keep it from coming. A tech hit God's Hand under Auto-Taru also lands a low OHKO to average, so shock's an actual option against the paralysis-vulnerable who aren't particularly durable in some cases (sometimes, Ryuji can't afford an enemy to get a second turn, so it has its uses). The wind weakness is problematic, but at least it's not that common an element exploit and P5 weakness isn't nasty the way P4 and -particularly- P3 weaknesses are (P3 being the game where a toddler with a matchstick could beat the crap out of Mitsuru, for instance). As a side note: his backup magic damage ain't winning him any matches in Heavy either, but it's actually not -horrible-? Running Elec Boost+Amp and Auto-Taru, he actually 3HKOs, so he doesn't fail it up completely against the Kimahris and Thomases of the world. Might even make him vs. Mog worth considering.

Morgana/Mona - Middle/Heavy? The kitty's quite hard to place due to so many conflicting issues and perks. Auto-Taru Garudyne's a low 2HKO off above average speed and Sukunda is a -great- tool for a healer (Persona 5 accuracy and evade being as horrifyingly comprehensive as they are). Additionally, he can cause hell against staller PCs with turn two Despair. On the other hand, dear god that durability and Thunder weakness (which, in fairness, is hard to hit him with even at base and even more problematic when Sukunda's in play). In theory, the package could rock Heavy, but the durability+weakness combo gets him spoiled often, since he has a good toolset to end battles within two turns, but literally nothing that decides the fight in the first. He's almost like a bizarro, better Yosuke in practice. Pretty funny, considering he cribs mainly from the Yukari mold in-game.

Ann Takamaki/Panther - Heavy for sure. Ann's main slugfest stats kinda suck (below average durability! Below average speed! 3HKO damage!), but her skillset's a red mage's dream. Cheap full healing, decent evade (which becomes -amazing- against her weakness, and that's a big deal), Tarunda to effectively double her durability against pretty much everything ever because P5 debuffs fucking rule, the Concentrate option to frontload or backload huge damage, an option to smash through fire resistance/immunity -and- two effectively lethal, insanely accurate status options in sleep and brainwash. It's a pretty complete package with viable options both for short and long battles - status for fights she needs effectively won with her first turn, healing and Tarunda for slower burns. She really wishes she had something closer to Makoto's stat spread to have REAL championship potential in the division, though.

Yusuke Kitagawa/Fox/Inari - Light. EDIT: so, Shock actually sucks. Inari's best bet in practice then is relying on turn-two Dizzy to score wins besides his terrible slugfesting game. That's not very good, but it -does- give him some worth in Light, Sukukaja stacks crazily with the accuracy halving... but it's so short-lasting. To top this off, below average speed, 3HKO damage that eats his HP, that awful fire weakness (even though he's hard to hit with it, he has terrible options for winning fast and he's not built for long matches either). Just a bad package. Dear christ, Yusuke.
 
Makoto Niijima/Queen - Heavy. And back to people who don't suck. For starters, she gets a better version of Yusuke's evade game: turn one dizzy off game-best speed => 2HKO with Atomic Flare while the enemy struggles to hit a durable as fuck healer. If that's not an option Makoto still can resort to her nice tanking game off Auto-Raku and oodles of healing, which she can sprinkle a bit with less accurate, but still dangerous status options (Brainwash and Forget in particular can be -very- nasty). Flipside is she hates status herself, and that can be an issue when her best options against it (Brainwash and Forget) are turn two. Wishes Shock lasted two turns, but them's the breaks.

Haru Okumura/Noir - Middle of some sort. Heat Riser => 2HKO either durability (magic scraping the kill by a pretty bare margin, though the physical 2HKO is definitely solid) while sporting near-2x PC HP. Not a bad proposition on paper, but unfortunately Haru's durability and speed fall squarely below the curve's average. Tetrakarn and Makarakarn spoiling are more an on-paper thing than in practice, to boot, especially running off those costs and subpar speed. Against healers slower than her or just with really bad damage, though, she can gamble with One-Shot Kill for a crit to score a one-rounding, at least (that manages to be turn two on average!), though no guarantees... -in fact-, actually, One-Shot Kill x2 is pretty much a backloaded effective 2HKO with one-rounding potential whenever a crit lands (1.5x damage on the crit, 1.5x damage on the FOLLOW-UP... yeah. If it didn't cost HP, it'd be a terrific slugfesting move. As is, makes an interesting gamble!). Pretty gimmicky slugger, really, in a fun and fundamentally flawed way.

Pretty strong cast overall.

[OblivionKnight]

Cool thoughts.  A couple questions for my curiosity (and for topic revisions):

1) What do you think about the bosses?  Primarily the most rankable one (Black Mask)?

2) Mmm...well, Yoshitsune does require a > level 75 persona...Futsunushi, which is level 76.  That's like 2 battles in Mementos Depths.  Now, granted, Futsunushi is only available on the last day of the game, so that's annoying, but it's a minimal difference.  Although I suppose if you have to set a cut-off point, that works, and thems the breaks.  I can't see a reason to disallow Yoshitsune based on the details you've provided, unless...

3) When you say level 80 base , I assume you mean you allow personas that start at level 80 (like Mother Harlot), and allow them to level for their skills (so, Mother Harlot is 85)?  But still take a character level 75?  Would you put any limit on their level (assuming maxed links - 5 level gains before max FOOL, 6 after max FOOL...that's like all but one persona gaining their last skill - of course it's Yoshitsune - but with sacrifice, it's not a huge deal)?

4) Do you allow skill transfer at all?  Isolation?  Etc.?  Details so I can build a more responsive topic 

5) What do you think about DLC?

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

1) What do you think about the bosses?  Primarily the most rankable one (Black Mask)?

In terms of how I see the stats for the bosses, I might actually respect their stats very slightly more than you, since I've been consistently a level or two below your levels the whole playthrough! That's pretty funny! This said, Black Mask and Char Aznable are both shades of Godlike. Black Mask in particular has a pretty abusive game with Tetrakarn/Makarakarn + double-acting and easy OHKOs, but giving up initiative and not being very durable (like 1.2x PC HP after accounting for defenses? That doesn't give you a lot of leeway in Godlike!) makes his game better on-paper than it is in practice. In theory, Desperation+Heat Riser turns his offense into a fucking nightmare, but man if you let him get -that- far, you honestly DESERVE to lose. Still, pretty fun! And I'm glad he's rankable that way, because dear god I don't want to think about the scaling on his other form. Char, I probably hold him to his Masses Transformer form (the highest durability and best skillset of the lot), since the formchain does -not- meet my requirements for me to allow it. Good thing it makes Godlike too.

2) Mmm...well, Yoshitsune does require a > level 75 persona...Futsunushi, which is level 76.  That's like 2 battles in Mementos Depths.  Now, granted, Futsunushi is only available on the last day of the game, so that's annoying, but it's a minimal difference.  Although I suppose if you have to set a cut-off point, that works, and thems the breaks.  I can't see a reason to disallow Yoshitsune based on the details you've provided, unless...
3) When you say level 80 base , I assume you mean you allow personas that start at level 80 (like Mother Harlot), and allow them to level for their skills (so, Mother Harlot is 85)?  But still take a character level 75?  Would you put any limit on their level (assuming maxed links - 5 level gains before max FOOL, 6 after max FOOL...that's like all but one persona gaining their last skill - of course it's Yoshitsune - but with sacrifice, it's not a huge deal)?

To make things clearer: I'm pretty sure I allow -some- degree of higher-level-than-75 Personas because I allow Strength 10 for sure. I also set a limit on their max levels as +5 base (it's the max XP you can score with maxed confidant levels pre-MAX Fool, which uh kinda shows up WAY too late. It's like late in the last dungeon? Seriously? There -is- Persona sacrifice, but for optimum results, you also need to sacrifice expensive kids, so I prefer not to think about it). What I find prohibitive is mostly the COST, since Personas over five levels above mine started hitting prices well above 100k, and that's pretty prohibitive. I'm thinking about setting a limit on their costs for usage, but nothing too solid yet. Depending on how costs end up, I might even end up allowing Yoshitsune, but Hassou Tobi, being L86... yeah.

Also, for inheritance: I feel that, if the skills are available on the base skillset of -any- of the personas who originate the fusion, I think they're fine... as long as the limits for skill inheritance slots and all are respected. No skill cards and no sacrifice offerings, though.

[SnowFire]

I'd add about half a division to Jo'ou's rankings, although I suppose I should go finish some votes in the PG thread.  I know Jo'ou is baking in Tarukaja (which Yusuke hates) but are you up for Endure hype?  It certainly nets the cast some "stolen" wins, and is especially potent on Ann & Morgana, as it makes their status game hard to stop with OHKOs in High Heavy.  You have hilarious things like Tir *connecting his ID and still losing*, as 1 HP Ann just sleeps him and wins.  (Or, alternatively, scoring a huge OHKO then losing anyway.)

Shock isn't THAT bad (despite my antihype).  It is still good for Yusuke to set up a single, finishing, Technical'd Brave Blade, which isn't horrible, and Ryuji does unfair crap with Shock gun -> GH against frailer opponents.  Although incidentally, looking at things more closely, maybe I should have used Myriad Slashes in the average?  It's about the same amount of damage, for a less HP cost.  Ah well.  That said, Yusuke really wants every scrap of damage respect he can get, as he gets fearsomely bad against the higher damage averages.

--
Re OK's comments (which I know were aimed at Jo'ou)...  uh,  lategame Persona bosses in general are weird since buffs & debuffs are so potent in it.  (In-game Amaterasu vs. DL monster Ammie!)  Anyway, Black Mask is an easy High Godlike, even with baking in some buffs and the like.  You probably don't have Charge / Concentrate or just barely got them yet, so it's more that his damage will be weirdly good compared to in-game.  I'd kneejerk his durability as higher than Jo'ou, but I don't think Negative Pile is 50% Despair, though, considering it's a PC ability, and I don't think I'd let him spam 2x Piles, and I'd probably scale the shield from Tetrakarn / Makarakarn to 1/4 effectiveness as well, because holy shit are those wasted moves in-game what with every PC nulling their own element.  While I'm normally okay with formchains, just for sanity's sake, I think I'd start him in Loki form as well.

For the Joker comments, it reminds me a bit of all the hullabaloo over SN Reyva.  It doesn't really matter that much if he's being given access to the full Persona list (grumble grumble Atlus deciding that freaking Satanel is the upgraded Arsene, which you will never see in-game).  Let's say Atlus declares Bad Ending 1 is canon and the rest of the game is done by the other Phantom Thieves sans Joker, and the DL cruelly scales Palace 6 Joker against endgame everyone else.  Well, Joker-with-access-to-L53 Personas and less is still Godlike.  He'll still be able to find Personas that spoil his opponent's best damage, especially if any sort of inheritance is baked in.  He'll still be able to pick a very fast Persona to start with, then switch to a Persona with status-you-don't-block and status-you-don't-block-boost.  That's probably Godlike alone, even though this Joker is an incompetent slugger due to being 20 levels behind.  Scale him against an end-of-Palace 6 cast, and he can probably slug JUST FINE in Godlike off full healing, Down Shot, and various Auto-buffs.   The matches he loses are ones where there's some kind of tanky boss who sports a good PC-killing status.  That's going to be true no matter what cool tricks you give Joker.

Anyway, I suppose that for Personas with a specific recipe - e.g. Yoshitsune, Michael, etc. - I'd allow inheritance of skills learned by parts, sure.  For Personas that could come from anywhere, probably not, although I might be convinced to allow a single, general purpose damage-only skill so that Joker's spellcasting compares properly to in-game - e.g. an appropriate Element Amp, pretty much.  I also don't see a reason not to assume Arcana Burst; all the other PC Confidants assume they're maxed, I'm willing to do the same for Joker.  (Kinda mentioned this in the thread that I think Throne might be "too nice" for the cast, Joker is, without spending cash, always 5+ levels ahead of everyone else if you want.)  Also, just again for sanity's sake, I'd probably let Joker get most of his cool goodies; maybe ban the starting-level L89+ stuff, because the cost on Metatron / Satan / Lucifer is truly insane,  but just let him have the rest, and not hold the cast against it.  Note that banning those last 3 means no Nataraja and no Tyrant Pistol for Joker.  (Especially since you can only itemize a single item on the final day, so...  yeah, you have to have done this earlier without the levels from the final dungeon.)

I didn't download the DLC, so no DLC hype from me.  (There ARE games where I am willing to hype DLC, but this isn't one of them.)

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Yeah, I forgot, but DLC content is a no-go for me too. Regardless, taking a maximum of L80 for starting persona levels still allows Akira his most important stuff. Atlus making Trumpeter a sub-level 60 Persona was a good idea there! I'm also pretty sure he can get Heat Riser from -somewhere- below L81, though I didn't care to find it (Heat Riser isn't much of an in-game thing, lol st buffs, especially in a game where Futaba exists).

Also, no Endure hype for me, it really soured on me back in the days of Persona 4 ranking. I started allowing it, but then I got tided over into -not-.

EDIT: For Yusuke... I suppose Shock is an option if he's facing a shock-vulnerable foe running below 0.84 pdur. Not much elsewhere, since average speed/durability/damage still beats that plan (shocked PC goes first, gets first hit in - especially if magical - gets shocked, Brave Blade and IF Yusuke doesn't get shocked himself, another smack finishes him off because skills eating HP sucks for slugfesting. If he DOES get shocked, god have mercy). Against people he can't 2HKO, he's really banking it on Dizzy, which isn't much of a strategy for a non-healer outside of Light. It doesn't help that blind immunity is -so common-.

[Dhyerwolf]

TitS 2 Bosses
Normal Mode, Using 2000 as the PC damage average, but doubling their HP for support credit (so most of them have around 2.5 PC HP). The big question is how much I allow S-Craft spamming

Blueblanc- Mini is evil and will beat most PCs (certainly not all though. It's not helping enough against say VP 1 Lenneth). One of the worst cases for S-Craft spamming from one who needs it the most (since if it's OPB, he struggles to 5HKO). Can't really call him a Godlike since even with 2.5 PC HP, his slugging is too anemic. 4.35.

Walter- Almost average speed. Solid 2HKO, spoils some physical hards, 100% Faint is awesome. 4.7

Luciola- She wishes I let her clones just wait (because then she kills anyone who is fully susceptible to Sleep since 100% Sleep->Add a Million Clones->Kill in a round), but I'm not inclined to do that. She at least has a good case from S-Craft spam, but she's still a slow 3HKOer who is entirely reliant on physicals. Hmm. 3.5ish. Deals well with Middle slugfesters often

Renne- Really depends on S-Craft spamming since I think the ID on it is only 50%

Loewe- Fast, solid 2HKO, good defense, clones are excellent, has magic backup that comes with some status. 4.85

Weissman- Eats PCs and spoils magic. He's a Godlike, but not a good one since he doesn't have the mettle for a Godlike slugfest. 4.6

[Dhyerwolf]

FF4:TAY
Ceodore- 4.25. Great tankish. Evade, options to kill F/I/T, Reflect, and some healing to top it off. Good speed means that he can often get Reflect up first too. For all that he doesn't like status, Evade for some physical status and Reflect for MAgical status should be okay. Reliance on Holy hurts.

Cecil- 3.6. Evade+Elemental Resist. Less Holy dependence than original game, but still too much.
Sidenote: The game designer clearly hated Cecil. Less a DL thing and more of how hideously bad they made him in-game. His son is great, his brother is absurd, and even his deadbeat best friend, who shouldn't even be in the same league, is notably better.
 
Rosa- 3.75. Charge Time on Holy hurts bad. Makes Reflect/Image very critical, because that's the only way she gets it off. Really hard to say how well this work without seeing it in practice, so gut checking H/M border. Berserk and Confuse are turn 1 to me, and Silence and Hold are close to it.

Kain- Blink is cool...albeit Kain's base evade makes not serve as much purpose. Paralyze is turn 2 (barely) and Haste is good. Now deals with healers well enough. 3.85, although that could be overrating

Rydia- 3.45. OHKO or good turn 1 status....but will be doubled by ~105% speed before it lands, which is a lot of opening

Edge- 2HKO off nasty speed. Even better if you respect Fuma's (50,000 for an extra ST 2,600 damage once versus 100,000 for an extra ~60,000 MT damage potentially?! Horrible money use)
4.1.

Cid- 2.6. There are worse Lights, but the speed burns

Yang- 3.25. Decent stats+turn 2 Confuse on attack. HP takes him up a bit, although he flops compared to FF4A

Palom- 3.25. It's slower Rydia!

Porom- 3.7. It's slower Rosa!

Edward- 2.25. At least you used to be really fast in 4a.

Luca- 2.7. Cid with a few more equip options and more speed (any extra speed helps)

Ursula- 3.7. Killer speed

Leonora- 3.35. The speed burns. But the defensive tricks and a few turn 1 statuses help. Doesn't even have the nasty OHKO to build to

Gekkou- Slow, backloadable 2HKO and good HP. 3.35

Zangetsu- No great physical options, and Blitz isn't fast. Shadowbind might be enough to scrape Middle. 3.1

Izayoi- A few cute options. Feels like very average Middle. 3.4

Tsukinowa- Likes evadable physicals and lots of speed. 3.7

Harley- Paralysis on the weapon is really the only really thing going for her, but it's not bad for Light. 2.75

Golbez- Black Mage damage with 30% more speed...and cracked out evade. OHKOs at about 70% damage. Doesn't have the raw damage or another compensating factor to hit Godlike, but he may not be far from it. Cutting 10% of status helps him a bit at least. 4.35
Sidenote: So good in game. Sure, evade all the physicals and draw all ST attacks! Also has the best upside for endgame speed (he can have another 22 points of speed in game compared to the DL).

Calca- 2
Brina- 2.15

[Dhyerwolf]

Dhyer's Updated Ranking List (Some of these old ones are probably quite out of date now...like Hilda as a solid Heavy!)
Games Included
AI, BoD 7, BoF 2, BoF 3, Brig, Child of Light, EP, FF 4: TAY, FF 13, FE 7, FE 10, FE 13, Grandia 2, Grandia 3, Jeanne D’Arc, Legend of Heroes: TitS 1, Legend of Heroes: TitS 2 (Bosses Only), Lost Odyssey, MK 2, Shadow Hearts 3, SO 3, Suiko 1, Suiko 2, TitS, Xenosaga

Number Log
Ryu (BoF 3)- 5
Tibarn (FE 10)- 5
Myria (BoF 3)- 4.95
Naesala (FE 10)- 4.9
Loewe (TitS: LoH 2)- 4.85
Nailah (FE 10)- 4.75
Shania (SH 3)- 4.75
Tir (S1)- 4.75
Walter (LoH: TitS 2)- 4.7
Riou (S2)- 4.7
Johnny (SH 3)- 4.65
Weissman (TitS: LoH 2)- 4.6
Caineghis (FE 10)- 4.55
Ryu (BoF 2)- 4.55
Teepo (BoF 3)- 4.55

Jowy (S2)- 4.5
Lucina (FE 13)- 4.4
MILLENIA (G2)- 4.4
Deis (BoF 2)- 4.35
GOLBEZ (FF4:TAY)- 4.35
Ike (FE 10)- 4.35
Blueblanc (LoH: TitS 2)- 4.35
Et (MK 2)- 4.3
CEODORE (FF4:TAY)- 4.25
RAZE (MK 2)- 4.25
FAYT (SO 3)- 4.25
Elincia- 4.2
Ulf- 4.2
Fang- 4.15
Hilda- 4.15
Lyn- 4.15
Edge (FF4:TAY)- 4.1
Athos (FE 7)- 4.1
Delsus- 4 (This must be an error)
Lon’Qu, Say’Ri (FE 13)- 4
Rufus (JDA)- 4
Nel (SO 3)- 4
Barbarossa (S1), MAZUS (S2)- 4
KOSMOS (XS 1)- 4
Estelle (LoH: TitS)- 3.95
EILEEN (S1), Flik (S2)- 3.95
KLEIN (AI)- 3.9
REI (BoF 3)- 3.9
Tiki (FE 13)- 3.9
Yuki (G3)- 3.9
MARIA (SO 3)- 3.9
Flik (S1)- 3.9
THAGE (EP)- 3.85
Kain (FF4:TAY)- 3.8
Snow, Vanille (FF 13)- 3.85
Hector (FE 7)- 3.85
Chrom (FE 13)- 3.85
ALBEL (SO 3)- 3.85
NORN (AI)- 3.8
Florina, Guy, Legault, Stefan (FE 7)- 3.8
Flavia (FE 13)- 3.8
Elena (G2)- 3.8
Grenseal, Sheena (S1)- 3.8
Momo (BoF 3)- 3.75
Olifen (EP)- 3.75
Rosa (FF4:TAY)- 3.75
Rebecca (FE 7)- 3.75
Agate, Kloe (LoH: TitS)- 3.75

Sara (BoD7)- 3.7
Porom, Tsukinowa, Ursula (FF4:TAY)- 3.7
Matthew (FE 7)- 3.7
Gaius (FE 13)- 3.7
TENGAAR (S2)- 3.7
Ares (EP)- 3.65
Sazh (FF 13)- 3.65
THARJA (FE 13)- 3.65
ALFINA (G3)- 3.65
JOSHUA (LoH: TitS)- 3.65
Tolten (LO)- 3.65
Puniyo (MK 2)- 3.65
Cecil (FF4:TAY)- 3.6
Skrimir, Ulki (FE 10)- 3.6
Cordelia (FE 13)- 3.6
Kaim (LO)- 3.6
CAMUS (S1)- 3.6
Sumia (FE 13)- 3.55
Bartolomeo (JDA)- 3.55
Alen (S1)- 3.55
CHOAS (XS 1)- 3.55
Raki (EP)- 3.5
Mia, Rolf, Sain, Serra (FE 7)- 3.5
Chereche (FE 13)- 3.5
Luciola (LoH: TitS 2)- 3.5
Seth (LO)- 3.5
Pepperoni (MK 2)- 3.5
Cliff, Peppita (SO 3)- 3.5
Killey, Millie (S2)- 3.5
MARIETTA (AI)- 3.45
Nina, Rand (BoF 2)- 3.45
Iria (Brig)- 3.45
Oengus (CoL)- 3.45
Rydia (FF4:TAY)- 3.45
Hope, Lightning (FF 13)- 3.45
Canas (FE 7), Tauroneo (FE 13)- 3.45
Ulrika (MK 2)- 3.45
Sophia (SO 3)- 3.45
Cleo, Ronnie (S1), Valeria (S2)- 3.45
Alexei, Retica (EP)- 3.4
Izayoi (FF4:TAY)- 3.4
Fiora, Nephenee, Nealuchi (FE 10), Basilio (FE 13)- 3.4
La Hire (JDA)- 3.4
Zane (LoH: TitS)- 3.4
Crowley, Ein Gide, Valeria (S1), BOB (S2)- 3.4
Ziggy (XS 1)- 3.4
LITA (AI)- 3.35
Gekkou, LEONORA (FF4:TAY)- 3.35
Boyd, Edward, Haar, Micaiah, Soren, Volug, Zihark (FE 10)- 3.35
Vaike, Robin (FE 13)- 3.35
Mirage (SO 3)- 3.35
Long Chan Chan, Nina (S2)- 3.35
Dryst, Zemeckis, Brangien, Shiraha (Brig)- 3.3
Brom, Calill, Dart, Gareth, Mordecai, Raven, Titania (FE 10)- 3.3
Anna, Nowi, Sully (FE 13)- 3.3
Roger- 3.3 (JDA)
Jansen, Sed (LO)- 3.3
SONYA (S1), Luc, Stallion (S2)- 3.3
Delsus (AI)- 3.25
Aurora (CoL)- 3.25 (2.75 w/o Iggy)
Marie (EP)- 3.25
Yang, Palom (FF4:TAY)- 3.25
Danved, Jill, Kent, Volke (FE 10)- 3.25
Gregor, Kellam (FE 13)- 3.25
TIO (G2)- 3.25
Kasumi (S1)- 3.25
Vaynard, Dinadin, Bahamut, Escalados, Isfas, Batercus, Merriott, Seraph (Brig)- 3.2
Ashley (EP)- 3.2
Jaffar, Janaff, Kieran, Kurthnaga, Oswin, Ranulf (FE 10)- 3.2
Henry (FE 13)- 3.2
Bertrand (JDA)- 3.2
MACK (LO)- 3.2
Scherazad (LoH: TitS)- 3.2
NORAH (CoL)- 3.2
HELLION (S1), Anita, Georg (S2)- 3.2
DEM (BoD7)- 3.15
Cador, Lance (Brig)- 3.15
Malakov, Pent, Rath, Renning (FE 7), Miriel (FE 13)- 3.15
GLYNNE, LOGUE, REYNA (EP)- 3.15
Miriel (FE 13)- 3.15
Ryudo (G2)- 3.15
Roger (SO 3)- 3.15
Gijimu, Kasumi, Sheena (S2)- 3.15
Jr (XS 1)- 3.15
BOW (BoF 2)- 3.1
Finn (CoL)- 3.1
Zangetsu (FF4:TAY)- 3.1
Nolan (FE 10), Stahl (FE 13)- 3.1
Roan (G2)- 3.1
Colet (JDA)- 3.1
Yun (MK 2)- 3.1
Chloe- 3.05
Frank- 3.05
Esmeree, Paternus- 3.05
Erk, Heath, Kyza, Lethe, Louise, Lowen, Oscar- 3.05
Gilles- 3.05 (JDA)

STEN (BoF 2)- 3
Tiamat, Pegasus (Brig)- 3
Hawkeye, Vaida (FE 7), Lyre, Tanith (FE 10)- 3
Olivier (LoH: TitS)- 3
Goto (MK 2)- 3
RICARDO (SH 3)- 3
HIX, Shin (S2)- 3
Fafnir (Brig), Phoenix, Salamander (Brig)- 2.95
Bastian (FE 10)- 2.95
ERIK (BoD7)- 2.9
CAI, LYONESSE, Holygriff (Brig)- 2.9
GEN (CoL)- 2.9
VIVIAN (EP)- 2.9
Bartre, Fiona, Priscilla, Wil (FE 7), Ilyana, Marcia (FE 10), Rickon, Virion (FE 13)-  2.9
DAHNA (G3)- 2.9
JEANNE, RICHARD (JDA)- 2.9
HUMPHREY, KAHN, LO WEN, Pesmerga, Wakaba (S2)- 2.9
Lita (BoD7)- 2.85
Lecarra (Brig)- 2.85
RUBELLA, Robert (CoL)- 2.85
Komori (EP)- 2.85
Isadora (FE 7)- 2.85
Mareg (G2)- 2.85
Clive, KIRKUS, PAHN, Tai Ho, Yam Koo (S1), Clive, RINA (S2)- 2.85
Momo (XS 1)- 2.85
Katt (BoF 2)- 2.8
Ming, Sarah (LO)- 2.8
LILY (MK 2)- 2.8
MAO, NATAN (SH 3)- 2.8
Maneater, Vampire Lord (Brig)- 2.8
Lucia, Sothe, Heather, Vika- 2.8
Marcel (JDA)- 2.8
NINA (BoF 3)- 2.75
STEIN (EP)- 2.75
Bilcock, Fenrir, High Centaur, Titan (Brig)- 2.75
Harley (FF4:TAY)- 2.75
Lucius (FE 7), Geoffrey, Mist, Muarim, Sigrun (FE 10)-  2.75
Cuisses (JDA)- 2.75
Adray (SO 3)- 2.75
FUKIEN, Futch, Lepant, LUC (S1), Nanami, Tai Ho (S2)- 2.75
Spar (BoF 2)- 2.7
Peco (BoF 3)- 2.7
Rose (JDA)- 2.7
Kuromini (S1), Lorelai (S2)- 2.7
Gish, Loufal, Meltorfas, Lizard Guard, Poseidon, Satan (Brig)- 2.65
Milich, Pesmerga (S1), VINCENT (S2)- 2.65
Millia, Millet, Dao (Brig)- 2.6
Tristis (CoL)- 2.6
Cid  (FF4:TAY)- 2.6
IRINA, LEVATTE, VELNOR (EP)- 2.6
Nasir (FE 10?)- 2.65
Dorcas (FE 7)- 2.6
TITA (LoH: TitS)- 2.6
Kasim, Milia (S1), Koyu (S2)- 2.6
Eliwood (FE 7)- 2.55
Humphrey, Sylvina (S1), Kinnison (S2)- 2.55
COOKE (LO), Filo, Bronze Golem (Brig), Renault (FE 7), Meg, Oliver, Sanaki (FE 10), Jean, Beatrix, Claire (JDA), Tsai, Viktor (S2)- 2.5
Gremio, Krin (S1), Miklotov (S2)- 2.45
Morholt (Brig), Yuri (EP), Leonardo (FE 10), Libra (FE 13), Futch (S2)- 2.4
Oulan (S2)- 2.35
Zerafin (Brig), Astrid (FE 10)- 2.3
Garr (BoF 3), Death Needle (Brig), Nena (EP), Edward  (FF4:TAY), Lissa (FE 13), Rikumaru (S2)- 2.25
Aran (FE 10), Chaco, Eilie, Shiro(S2)- 2.2
Brina (FF4:TAY), Rhys (FE 10), Amada (S1), Gabocha, Gengen (S2)- 2.15
Karen (S2)- 2.1
Freed (S2)- 2.05
Calca  (FF4:TAY), Ena, Laura, Tormod (FE 10), Frederick, Donnel, Olivia (FE 13), Bolgan, Sid, Viki (S2)- 2
Fairy (Brig), Mukumuku (S1)- 1

[Dhyerwolf]

Cosmic Star Heroine
In doing these, I found myself kind of tempted to compile all data for damage and speed data for all DL characters in a database because many CSH characters are just checking whether someone has done sufficient damages in a set number of turns.

Note: Average Cunning is 56. Although I don't really have a basis for what effect this has on status resistance, so I'm just going to assume a modest subtractive reduction of Cunning-56/4 just to create some baseline since the effect in game was probably pretty muted (status that I noticed at least often tended to be turn 1 on high Cunning PCs)

Kill Point: ~12,700/12,309 (Dave can get more damage than in topic I believe. First is allowing the Enviro-Hack, second isn't)

It's possible that I'm underrating the practical effect of Desperation strategically.

Alyssa- 4.75. Nasty turn 2 damage (~2.2 ITD PC HP) and Desperation's existance means that slow OHKOs or quick 2HKOs won't cut it (and will actually increase her damage to around 2.94 PC HP). She doesn't like massive HP (unless they can't power through a Heroine Aura defense that lasts until turn 5 Smash (best bet is probably Heroine Aura->Defend->Heroine Aura->All-Out->Data Storm) or potentially dispel or high class universal evade. 8% Status Res or the Excalibo status immunity options at least might net her a few extra wins here and there. Clear Godlike, but has enough ways to be foiled

Other Notes
Turn 2- All-Out ->Data Storm. 620 * 3.15 * 2 * 3 * 2 * 1.5 = 35,154
Turn 2- Heroine Aura->Data Storm- 620 * 1.5 * 2 * 2* 3 = 11,160
Excalibo Option (Status Immunity)
Turn 2- All-Out->Data Storm. ~ 620 * 2.5 * 1.65 * 1.65 * 3 = 12,659 (Actually higher than this since this is using the lower baseline stats on Heroine Bo)

Chahn- 2.95. Can build to 84% shot on turn 7 (97% without Silver Bullets in play). So effectively, if she is 3HKOed, she can string along well enough until then (minus any doubles potentially, although she can sub out Silver Bullet for Echo). She can deal with slower 2HKOers if they are a bit frail (barring doubling). Even low grade status may work against her well enoug, as well as other healers who have average PDur (even without super great healing, as long as its as somewhat spammable) and spiky damage dealers. Healing is generally full until getting rid of style. Interesting Light, but I don't think she quite has the punch to get any higher (could b

-->Potential Best Strategy (Maximizing kill speed while keeping healed at least every other turn)
-->Unleash->Heal->Sniper (4548 ITD Damage)->Heal->Silver Bullets->Revive->Orbital Burst (11899)
Always heal until damage due to being 2HKOed by a slower enemy
-->Unleash->Heal->Heal->Heal->Echo->Revive->Orbital Burst (10347)

Dave- 2.8. So, my gut reaction right now is not to allow Enviro-Hack, since it's too swingy. If you allow it, Dave's Eco Specs boost it 50% (so his best damage and allows him to use a move afterward if that's ever relevant). Without it, Dave has almost exactly PC HP on turn 3. It's effectively ITD (or actually ITD? Either way, I don't think the defense stat effects it?), but the durability is painful. I could be underrating this in practice, since Desperation offsets his poor durability to a degree that does usually make him see turn 3 in Light.
-->Enviro-Hack~14000 (~561 (Base Pierce Damage) * 3.75 (Null's mult) * 1.7 (Cheat Code) * 2 (Hyper Mode) * 2 (Has 100 Style)).
-->Null- 12,398 (561 * 3.25 * 2 * 1.7 * 2) Frail average speed 3HKO that ever so barely KOs (so above average HP will kill it). But if he hits desperation turn 3, then he does 13,948 (at least giving him a little clearance).

Sue- 3.45. 1.8 PC HP Physical Damage Turn 3 (1.54 In Desperate). The best of the characters banking on the turn 3 Burst OHKO with the best damage and best durability/status res combo
-->If uses Hyper+ on turn 3, will go into Hyper but will maintain until 4th turn
-->If knocked into Desperation on 3rd turn, he does 1.55 * 1.55 * 2.5 * 4 * 1.5 * 530 = 19099

Lauren- 2.65. Don't knock her into Desperation in Hyper Mode turn 4 (or actually longer, since she can retime her Hyper modes), or eat about 65% PC HP as a finisher. I'll be charitable and assume for now that she can land Poison on turn 1; testing Charm and Stun at end game didn't seem to be hitting if used on Turn 2 (or even Hyper Mode in turn 1; at least Poison can be AoE and has a better base multiplier). If they worked, she'd be a lot pretty since she could rob enemy turns and manipulate things better. As is...she attempts to 4/5HKO.

Turn 4 Desperation (No Status): 12639; 3375 (Opening Slash)->1028 (Tornado)->888 (Assa)->7388 (Desperate Stab)
Turn 4 Desperation (Poison Status Hits Turn 1)- ~12600; 3375 (Opening Slash)->0 (Plague)->1775 (Assa)->3550 (Assa)->7388 (Desperate Stab) (Poison strategy gets better when the Desperation comes on a later turn)
Also, she wishes so badly that using Spotlight in Desperation mode would be effective with Desperation Slash (she technically dies after using Spotlight and has 0 HP and Style, but you can still use a move- but she's no longer in desperation).

Finn- 4.1. The defense strategy works pretty well, although fire-resistant healers make him sad. If he needs to stay under Defensive Stance all the time, he'll kill average in 6 hits. If he faces someone who halves Fire, that probably gets pushed out to 8-9HKO. The best non-fire damage he can do about 25% PC HP (so feels like a Heavy that nulls Fire should eventually get sufficient damage to kill him). Could be possible that some non-Fire resistant healers might also get to the point where damage spikes can take Finn out too.

X'Torv- 4.35. Can't even OHKO him thanks to Paw Claws->Rebirth. Rebirth is cute- Activates even with multiple deaths, so you can't kill him with damage for 6 turns once he gets it up. Assuming Rebith turn 1, he does 1.7  PC HP Physical Damage by Turn 5 and about 1.25 on turn 5. While plenty of things foil this, this seems like there are even a fewer Godlikes he could poach with this (including a number of the PC ones who rely on big damage without a status backup). The strategy certainly has it's flaws (evaders, statusers), it's decently potent

Clarke- Limiter Release guarantees that he lives through Self Destruct (It doesn't, so he better kill)? Also, kill him with fire, no rank.

Psybe- 3.15. 1.7 PC HP Magic Damage turn 3 (~1.35 in Desperation). Poor PDur (at least he can get it effectively above 0.8 with Rebirth Song). Still Desperation feels potent enough that he might just be a tad too much for light.

Orson- 3.3. 1.3 PC HP Magic Damage turn 3! Also, might Elemental resists give him a few more matches and his damage will get a few random upward spikes hitting elemental weaknesses.  Better concrete durability than Psybe and Desperation just makes his damage better (and I feel like they'll often be in Desperation turn 3).

In case it ever comes up, the legal starting shields:
Chahn- Absorb Shield
Alyssa- Adventurer
Dave- Dark
Sue- Protector
Finn- Void
Lauren- Song
X'Torv- Mercenary
Arete- Insight
Clark- Groove
Psybe- Ruin
Orson- Life

[DjinnAndTonic]

Cosmic Star Heroine
In doing these, I found myself kind of tempted to compile all data for damage and speed data for all DL characters in a database because many CSH characters are just checking whether someone has done sufficient damages in a set number of turns.

If you do this, please share. I have been thinking about throwing together a for-fun RPGmaker game based on DL-like stats and that would cut down on a lot of work for me.

[Dhyerwolf]

Note: In terms of balancing effects with my the prorations, I'm scaling down the effects of cast wide equip based status blockers (now halving the effect; unique equips or innate resistance is unchanged). The flip is that instead of letting an accessory cover just 1 status, I'll allow up to 2 (if such an accessory provides). Mentioning it here since the cast has a lot of status blocking. 

Note 2: I allow 115 CP at the start of battle. This opens up a number of options

Rean- 4.55. Valimar + Delay Strategy of Doom should be sufficient to swing low Godlike (not sure either one alone is though). Valimar can deal a good chunk of PCs and frailer bosses that Rean outspeeds, but still feels like there might be too many Heavies that can take him (issues with evasion, tanky healers, physical tanks). Delay strategy helps cover at least cover a few gaps.

Alisa- 4.9. Angel allows her to unleash 1.36 PC HP magic damage without fail. Against faster 2HKOers, that often jumps to 2.45 (or even higher) PC HP. Even double acting doesn't stop her from inserting an SCraft even if the first attack kills her. Doesn't really the muster to go toe to toe with the true top of Godlike tanks or extreme magic tanks.

Alfin- 4.15. OHKO her, kill her EP or CP, status her out in a turn (hard thanks to blockers), just massively tank magic or be a boss for the most part (since I'm not really seeing them get cancelled to death unless they are explicitly hittable by something similar in game or unless their general statusability has some very, very large holes). Her delay move is not subject to evasion (or at least CS 2 evasion). Nasty! She certainly loves my views where I allow an extra Impede for her because she strategy becomes far chancier without it.

Angelica- 4. In the DL, she'll murder those with marginal damage (takes about 70% PC HP to 2HKO her, 58% to 3HKO, and 49% to 4HKO and she has Insight to slow down those who rely on evadable physicals). My adjustments make her Faint move borderline turn 1 (She's a perfect example of why I like factoring in boost for MT in my status calculations, because her Faint move is so useless in game), so there's some use (but not super great). Feels like the package overall is enough for Heavy, although her overall strategies with the Str boosting, Insight and Stun all feel like worse versions of Sara's (the one advantage being the damage cut, but still worse damage off slower speed hitting the 3 turn mark).

Claire- 4.2. Quite solid turn 1 Freeze, fast turn 2 ID, fast healing with items that doesn't eat into her EP pool. Can't be spoiled by evasion.

Elise- 4. 84% PC HP Turn 2 Damage at 99% speed or 1.1 PC HP damage at 110% speed turn 3. Freeze allows her to deal with healers (although maybe not as many in Heavy), and Athelas + short Water recharge means that she can try healing her way out of pressure situations (it's only 1/2! of a normal turn length). Not of a fan of Water resistance (especially if paired with Dark resistance).

Elliot- 4. Great healing (and the speed bump is nice) complemented by 20% regen at start. Need about 65% Physical Damage or 72% Magical to 2HKO him through Attack Down (if faster), so he can at least somewhat control damage in Middle and some Heavy fights. Confuse can be nasty as well. Will struggle against some healers more than other CS 2 Heavies though.

Emma- 3.55. 115% PC HP 2 Turn Damage at 85% Speed or 154% PC HP 3 Turn Damage at 93% Speed. Deals with mages and healers well enough, but any passable Middle fighter will likely take her out. No worries about being elementally spoiled. The Confuse loop that the EP regen nabs a few extra wins since it can shut down a fair number of PCs with its speed boost (giving Emma an above average speed turn 2).

Fie- 4. Weird. Her strategies synthesize well enough to get her into Heavy, but she's spoilable. Resisting ID hurts her pretty badly; even resisting it 25% makes Faint fall to turn 3 for me (really hampering it's usefulness). Magic ID at least helps plug the holes caused by evasion. If she needs to manage damage, she can kill average around turn 2.8 (against someone with above average durability or resisting Dark damage though, that gets pretty sad). Her own evasion is probably most useful for letting her live until Magic ID as she generally wants to rush.

Gaius- 3.2. Spoiling evadable physicals is nice, although his strategy to nowhere as thorough as Kimahri's. Against ITE or magic, Gaius struggles massively (80% PC HP damage on turn 3 at 96% Speed, effective turn 5 to actually kill average), and even some healers may be able to take Gaius out through the evade since they can just wait for him to run out of EP.

Jusis- 3.85. Scrapes a 2HKO off about 108% speed (And can trade speed for damage in a variety of ways there, and there's a chance of a crit anyways), a massive 3HKO (almost 2 PC HP at 110% speed) + decent Seal. For all that I would have been certain I would have found him to be a Heavy, having gone through it I'm not as sure, but I feel like he's just on the higher side of the border thanks to Seal.

Laura- 3.65. 92% Turn 1 Damage (slow though), a few decent slow 2HKO options, an evade strategy, and Mute (although given her damage punch, not sure the last two strategies will get much play). A very good Middle, but sadly not enough for Heavy. Although she starts with Impassion, she doesn't really have any strategies where it will be useful.

Machias- 3.4. Damage Reduction + Regen works so well in Middle. Even people who would do 80% damage to Machias 4HKO, giving him time to often land a fatal Petrify. If you resist Petrify and have healing, he'll be more fearful, but he can still reapply Earth Pulse if an enemy's damage is too anemic.

Millium- 4. Enemies essentially lose their first turn, effectively giving her Turn 3 Stone at 90% Speed, 85-90% Damage turn 1 damage (albeit very slow), borderline 2HKOing at just a hair under average speed, or effectively Turn 1 Faint that leads to nasty damage (meaning that she can take out some enemies without ever taking damage). For all that she's pretty unimpressive in game, her strategies synthesize well. Not a fan of status resistance or healers though, and I could be overrating her a little (considering it takes so little to bump her Stun to turn 2).

Sara- 4.1. Her strategy options are surprisingly nuanced thanks to the amazing Lightning Charge and her amazing SCraft (second best in the DL for sure; flip side: strong argument for the worst DL MQ). If her enemy will be hit by Faint, Her SCraft can be deployed at many different times to create a ton of options (including effectively killer damage that activates turn 1 around 79% Speed). If Faint has no use, she can still use Lightning Charge to give her a great 3HKO (1.25 PC HP at 112% Speed) while making her simaltaneously laugh at evadable physicals. She also has solid Seal and Attack Down options just to make physicals even worse. Not a fan of durable mages, boss ITE, or Fire and Wind resistance.

Sharon- 4.45. And here's the best DL SCraft. Near initiative ID. And against ID resistance, I'll still at least see Nightmare hitting (Sharon can then set up for a 45000 damage crit). Over 50% Evade + Trails status resistance both help her deal with a number of bosses, but not enough for me to say that she feels like a true Godlike. Not far off though.

Toval- 3.9 94% PC HP 2 Turn Damage at 97% Speed or 89% PC HP at 103% Speed. 115% PC HP Turn 3 DAmage at 110% Speed. Damage options are more Middle, but the 50% MEvade, Turn 1 Seal and Turn 1 Mute give him potential spoiling options in Heavy. Not a fan of joint Wind and Holy resistance

Towa- 3.15. 87% PC HP Turn 2 at 80% Speed, 114% Turn 3 at 83% Speed. Tereal being a short turn is potentially one saving grace (only takes up 80% a turn). Freeze is a long wait to kick in (Turn 3 at ~90% Speed). Tearal is enough to get her to Middle, but she struggles there mightily (and I could be overrating her). Not a fan of joint Water and Earth resistance

[SnowFire]

Note: In terms of balancing effects with my the prorations, I'm scaling down the effects of cast wide equip based status blockers (now halving the effect; unique equips or innate resistance is unchanged). The flip is that instead of letting an accessory cover just 1 status, I'll allow up to 2 (if such an accessory provides). Mentioning it here since the cast has a lot of status blocking. 

I dunno about this.  Obviously you should run with whatever you feel is best, but it's not really true-to-the-game IMO, where flat immunity is just that: immunity.  An opponent can't keep trying one status to get through, you have a sure wall against it.  This is important since enemies really do have some quite nasty statuses if you let them live: Nightmare, Vanish, Freeze, Confuse, etc.  If you immune it, they're just out of business.

Additionally, this is a game where by endgame you'll have both a Grail Locket and a Lionheart Medal, meaning you can make 2 party members flat status immune.  Many of the best stat endgame accessories, e.g. Abyss Shadow / Evergreen  / Passionate Rogue / Still Blue, also pack a bunch of status immunities for free.  (Okay, Deep Ocher too, but the stats on it suck.)  So this is a cast that is very good against status, and being good is relevant if you decide to YOLO neglect status immunity.

If you feel like this should be "nerfed" some in the DL, I'd recommend just being a hardass about "status equivalencies" for similar statuses, or only letting 1 accessory slot be used for the purpose  on the assumption that a good non-status accessory is there - e.g.  True Gladiator Belt, Arch Tyrant Badge, etc.

[Dhyerwolf]

The cast is still better than nearly any other cast in the DL with status resistance. I already changed accessories in the DL versus in game because I only allowed non-unique accessories to block 1 status in the DL, so now allowing 2 is actually a step up in that regards. It's all about trying to find a balance that I feel can fairly weigh both attackers and defenders in context of my out there status scaling.

[Dhyerwolf]

Since I've recently beat FFT:WoTL (Rankings are still for original FFT)

My Scaling gives Shield Users about 27% Evade or 38% Mevade (or wrecking Fire or Ice)

Ramza- 3.45. Scrapes a 3HKO at default (or 4HKO magic), ~115% Speed, and shields are cool. A few extra equips round him out well enough plus a method to deal with low damage healers

Mustadio- He has turn 1 Paralysis to me! Granted, that only buys him about 2.5 turns and he 6HKOs. Not caring about PA does give a little more flexibility in equip trade offs. 2.65

Agrias- Averagish damage, 84% speed, but Shields are awesome. Having some status fall on turn 2 to me (Silence, Confuse) is a nice bonus as well and great synergy with Shields. 3.55

Rafa- 80% HP, relies on a 4HKO that also heals her for 44% of her HP (but really 63% of HP and it hits 70% of th time, so it's a questionable long term strat against a 2HKO). Evade is a bit above average, but not enough to matter. Granted, a lot of Light doesn't have average damage, so 2.7.

Malak- Better HP than Rafa and better speed, and nearly halves Magic. 6HKO instead of 4HKO, but he's so much harder to actually 2HKO (unless barring someone with bad accuracy perhaps) that it's a winning trade. 2.85

Beowulf- Strong turn 1 status+Shields+Drain is a solid combo. 4.1

Reis- What were they thinking? 2.4

Worker 8- 4.8. 1.7 Pdur+Magic Immunity+Nulls most Elements+Nulls most status. Can't deal with a lot of Godlike physicals, but a very good spoiler

Cid- 5. Option for OHKO damage, blistering speed, draining, Shields

Meliadoul- 1.6 Pdur+Weapon Destroying. I don't give Armor destroying a lot of credit (besides getting rid of effects of making healing worse), but she does borderline 2HKO for me. 3.95

Cloud- 3.9. He'll get a fatal status on turn 1 to me (albeit withs some delay).

Delita- Hey, at least WotL makes him feel justifiable as an endgame temp. Low 2HKO (no Bracer), Shields, a bit slow. 3.75

Olan- Time Stop is now turn 1 to me. The duration is short, but he can always reapply (since it's like 75% base hit rate to me) + his own blistering speed really helps there. 3.2.

Alma- So, no physical attack to me (Also not sure what her legal equips are), but at least Ultima is legal. At least a low 2HKO though and MBarrier is great. Hates healers with a burning passion. 3.4.

Squire- 2.6

Chemist- 2.95. Auto Potion is great in Light, but the damage is lacking. Probably a Middle if they could equip robes.

Knight- Breaks are turn 1 to me (and Weapon Break and Magic Break can both be decently effective against specific duellers), the Evade is solid. Probably enough to swing low Middle. 3.15

Archer- 2.8

Monk- 2.65

Priest- Fails against other Healers or Holy res. Not difficult to 2HKO first anyways. 2.9

Wizard- 3.5. OHKO damage, but 67% HP, but can trade some damage for notably more HP

Time Mage- Can get close to an OHKO with 67% HP, making her an inferior Wizard in a slugfest. However, Reflect and Slow close the gap a little. 3.4

Summoner- Worse damage than the above two classes. However, as long as she isn't doubled, turtling with Golem will work against physicals, and she doesn't have the potential MP woes of the above classes. Also Silence and Reflect to give her anti-magic options. 3.55

Thief- Can't seduce the same sex, but perfectly willing to seduce a pig or a tree or a corpse. This is to say that I don't really respect Steal Heart too much (turn 3 I guess). 2.6

Mediator- Slightly fast 3 turn status kill. 3.05

Oracle- 3.4. A few turn 1 statuses, turn 2 fatal status, Defense Up

Geomancer- Low 2HKO, above average speed, Shields. 3.75 and I could be underrating a little

Lancer- Basically see above, with more HP, but spoiled by enemies just moving out of the way. 3.45

Samurai- Slow, very borderline 2HKO with some magic backup. Kiyomori does help against slower enemies. Blade Grasp is awesome though. 3.65

Ninja- Fast with a solid 2HKO that even can get some status. 4

Calculator- Damage Split is a lifesaver with that speed since it means that an enemy will likely need over 45% PC HP (still not a lot) to kill her through a double. Silence, Sleep and Paralysis are turn 1 for me- not like Calc can really take much advantage with that speed. Probably scrapes into Middle since a lot of Lights that 2HKO even through a double won't be fast enough to 3-2 her (and might be 2HKOed by Holy). 3.1

Bard- 2.7

Dancer- Well, Nameless Dance is turn 1 to me. I'll likely see about the 5th most useful status hitting (with is either Confuse or Silence), so she can deal with some mages. 2.6

Mime- 2.4

Alma/Gaff/Algus- Not touching

And the bosses:

Izlude- Low Heavy? I need to nail down his HP, but he has so much durability than later bosses (not that means much) and that's before considering that he's not a complete moron regarding field setup (aka: he might actually be worth of some actual support credit)

Wiegraf- Low Heavy?

Lede/Celia- Need to get an exact read on their speeds. They'll basically never take a hit (they basically were part of a triple psuedo assassination mission, which is a great way for me to completely disrespect their HP), so their exact speed becomes very relevant

Once Orlandu joins, it becomes exceedingly difficult to respect any boss HP

Elmdor- 0.55 PC HP, 3HKO Magic or Physical, Blade Grasp+43% Evade on Top of that, tad fast. Well, shuts down evadable physicals hard, otherwise he has some large problems unless he can 2HKO more quickly. 3.35

Dycedarg- Effectively near PC HP with the Defense Ups baked in. Averagish speed, 50% MEvade, 2HKO. 3.65

Adramelk- 0.5 PC HP. Starts at 0 CT when most of the PCs don't? That's potentially really fatal. If that's right, he might even be a Light. Not giving him a ranking since I'm not sure on that.

Vormav- LOL. Wow, most bosses being assassin missions already makes their HP somewhat suspect, but an this is effectively an assassination mission where knocking literally any of the targets to low HP ends the match? 0.17 PC HP, averagish speed. Might spoil some fighters with Evade and Counter, but 2.7. Yikes.

Zalbag- 0.4 PC HP. Decent speed does allow him to open with a nasty Ruin, but the HP is so poor that even breaking someone's main attack stat twice may still result in his loss since he'll need 3 turns of attacking to kill. Uh...3? Lower?

Rofel- 0.625 PC HP. 1.8 Pdur+Evade+Weapon Destruction+Turn 1 Silence. Could this be enough to scrape Heavy? 3.85

Kletian- 0.25 PC HP. 2.25

Balk- 0.8 PC HP. Finally someone who didn't completely fail at orienting himself terrain-wise! Fast ITE 3HKO, albeit Lightning. 3.35

Hashmalum- Do you block Stop? You win! Otherwise, you lose! 4.25.

Altima- About PC HP between both forms. Starts slow, so form 1 is generally just going to be killed. One turn in form 2 can deal with the MP reliant (assuming they don't have high MDef) or get some lucky status. Struggles to win on damage in Heavy. Grand Cross will likely hit a semi-useful status (since Petrify, Frog or Sleep is enough to mess someone up), so 4 based on just that. Wishes she could just start in form 2.

[DjinnAndTonic]

I'm not sure what you're doing there with your boss ratings? Why are their durabilities so low?

[Dark Holy Elf]

I'm not sure why you think those are low? Later FFT bosses die really fast. I don't know exactly what scaling Dhyer uses but "dies in 2 attacks + doesn't have worthwhile support credit = 0.25 PCHP" would be consistent with some views. Kletian is just awful, and bosses like Rofel and Elmdor rely on spoiling to get things done (although in Rofel's case the spoiling is pretty good, he went on good runs in Heavy with that statline so 3.85 is definitely selling him short).

PCHP does seem too low for Altima to me though, she's equal to over 10 Kletians!

[Tide]

PCHP does seem too low for Altima to me though, she's equal to over 10 Kletians!

I like this statement since it sounds impressive until you remember that it's like saying someone is equal to over 20 Jeremys

[Dhyerwolf]

Altima is held back by losing the support on form 2. If she kept it, it would definitely be a bit higher. Practical support credit also factors in (hence why Balk's HP is so much higher. His support is the same technically, but much better in practice). All the bosses would be a bit higher, if they weren't assassination missions (or worse in Vormav's case).