Fire Emblem 10 in the DL

[Yoshiken]

Okay, I still don't see a major problem with Laguz. There is a clear mechanic to how the gauges work, and it'd be easy enough to figure that out for a battle. It's not like this is anything more complex than, say, Mitsuo the Hero or the multitude of SRPGs with movement-based attacks.

Anyways, for characters: (Stealing Ciato's list and editing, since that looks mostly like mine)
PCs
Support: Micaiah, Sothe, Elincia, Nailah, Caineghis, Sanaki, Kieran, Marcia
Maybe: Haar, Volug, Geoffrey, Lucia, Nolan, Kurthnaga
No: Everyone else.

Bosses
Support: Zelgius, Sephiran, Lekain, Izuka, Jarod, Oliver, Dheginsea
No: Everyone else.

Right. Like I said, I don't see the trouble with Laguz, which means that there's no real trouble with Kurthnaga (and, at endgame, that wouldn't be a problem anyways, as much as it doesn't represent his in-game style for most of the game). Dheginsea, I'd be totally in support of, since he's an interesting and damn powerful FE boss. Ashera, I'm gonna have to say no, just because that would entail the shield things as well, and those + the AoE effects make her damn annoying to interpret (would an ST character need to take 8 turns to break all shields? Would the number be scaled considering PCs? This is where Tal interps help.)
Undecided on Geoffrey and Lucia since they have little-to-no gameplay presence outside of about half a chapter, are not memorable at all and are useless end-game. Volug and Haar are more interesting and better for gameplay, but have very little plot and are incredibly dull in the DL, unless I'm forgetting some weapon Haar lays claim to. (And I'd hold Volug to Halfshift in the DL, even if he's better without it)
Nolan is an odd one. It seems good to have a DBer in there, since they're forced and thus have a gameplay presence, and Nolan is by far the most useful one at endgame. He's also different to, at least, Boyd, who is the only other Tellius axeman we have, in that Nolan is not a glass cannon. Leaning no here, unlike the previous 4, but could definitely be argued.

[Dark Holy Elf]

The problem with laguz is that they vary significantly in duelling ability based on what you allow them. No items at all = massive fail forever. Olivi Grass = they spend 1-2 turns with crappy stats then transform. Laguz Stone = they transform right away, arguably with initiative. That's 4 different interpretations on them which will see some of them swing from Light to Heavy fairly easily. That's a problem.

[Yoshiken]

Oh, hrm. I'd automatically assumed no items like everything else, and I don't think people take FE any differently? I mean, it's not like everyone goes handing Ike three shots of healing via Vulneraries.

[ThePiggyman]

Oh, hrm. I'd automatically assumed no items like everything else, and I don't think people take FE any differently? I mean, it's not like everyone goes handing Ike three shots of healing via Vulneraries.

I disagree with that, if only because Olivi Grass has some exception, in that no Beorc can/would ever use it. It's available, it's cheap, and, although it is an item, it's not one that just anyone gets use out of. It's completely logical to have all of your Laguz holding onto a piece of Olivi Grass during fights. It sure as hell makes the process faster. I'd compare it to having your Beorc units being bought weapons. Laguz can't use weapons, Beorc can't use Olivi Grass.

That's just my view of it, though, and I understand why others might disagree.

[Yoshiken]

Hmm. Guess that's fair enough, yeah - I see Rikku as having common Use items, so... I guess it's kinda the same logic? (This is still a good 1/5 of the cast or something, but I can at least see the logic behind it.)

Moving Kurthnaga to a Maybe and leaning no on Volug. Both still have perfectly valid arguments in that Kurthnaga has Formshift at endgame and Volug has Halfshift, so not convinced that they shouldn't be added at all.

[alanna82]

Support: Micaiah, Sothe (as FE10 only), Elincia (as FE10 only), Nailah, Volug, Caineghis, Sanaki and Oliver(because its Oliver) Oh and Zelgius/Black Knight if we can figure out what to rank him as. oh and Dhegensia however you spell his name

Maybe: Marcia, Kurthnaga, Leo, Edward and Nolan

No to: everyone else. I dont really remember the bosses I didnt list that well except Ashera, and shes a definite NO!

[Hyper Inferno]

PC characters get to use weapons. For Laguz, their equivalent to weapons are their transformation items. That's how I always thought about it.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Actually, let's just throw this one out and see what happens. Everyone respond please.

If a non-royal laguz was ranked in the DL, how would you vote on him (or her)?

Olivi Grass? Laguz Stones? Neither? Anything else of interest?

I'm curious to see what the actual split is like. Please answer honestly.

[Excal]

First turn is a Laguz stone followed by occasional Olivi Grass use.

[Monkeyfinger]

Olivi grass allowed, other items are too hard to get for me to allow them to every laguz.

Royals don't get to shift for their sexy stat boosts until they actually get a turn. An above average speed dueller gets a good hit (or two) in on a royal.

[superaielman]

Neither.  I also don't allow Laguz to start transformed. It isn't any different than any other phase based RPG for me in that regard.

[ThePiggyman]

They're allowed an item (be it Laguz Stone or Gem) that they start with, or that they're explicitly given through the story. Otherwise, I allow them to start with Olivi Grass. They can transform on the turn they reach the required gauge. Making royals require a turn to transform sounds fair, I suppose, although they can do so immediately when they DO get their turn.

[Excal]

Oh right.  Laguz with form shift have First Strike, Shift.  If you have a first strike ability and are faster than average speed, then go nuts.  Otherwise, they are shifted.

[Monkeyfinger]

Just to clarify, some people see royals as transformed at the very start of a duel, because in game they;re always transformed before they fight. I don't really care about that in game situation though. I take the more literal view.

[OblivionKnight]

All FE characters get initiative vs. all opponents.  I only allow starting items (so Giffca and Nasir have Laguz Gems) - which means almost everyone starts with something anyway.

[Yoshiken]

I wouldn't allow Olivi Grass/Laguz Gems, since I see them as items more than equipment, and they're items that several characters in the cast can use.
As for the transformation gauge, I'd see that starting as it does in-game - so, if they start ready to transform, then yes, they can transform. If the gauge starts empty, sucks to be them.

[DjinnAndTonic]

I'd allow starting items for those that had them, and Olivi Grass for any who want it. Formshifters start untransformed.

PCs:
Rank: Micaiah, Sothe, Elincia, Lucia, Geoffery, Nailah, Cain, Volug, Sanaki, Marcia, Kieran, Leo, Edward, Nolan, Kurth, Ranulf, Skrimir
Maybe: Haar, Illyana, Lethe, Mordecai
No: Everything else

Bosses:
Rank: Ashera, Sephiran, Zelgius, Oliver, Lekain, Dheginsea
Maybe: Everyhing else

[superaielman]

Boss stuff: Strong no to Ashera.  I'd also like to rank Ashanrd if we're going to rank mantle bosses, since part of mantle is the same goddess protect nonsense.

[Rozalia]

No to Laguz starting transformed except for Volug. He starts every battle before part 3 I think it is transformed so I'm willing to allow it. The other Laguz either transform just before they battle or due to it being a important story battle where they shift just as it starts (Ranulf a few times).
No to them getting items.

[DjinnAndTonic]

Oh, and I obligatorily throw my support to Heather, for being canon Lesbian in an FE game. It's not even the subtext-y Florina stuff, it's just right out there in the open. Hot. This needs to be ranked.

[Tide]

First turn is a Laguz stone followed by occasional Olivi Grass use.

This. 3000 gold to me at end game is pretty much pocket change. Just sell off all the various shit you don't need. Heck in the first playthrough, that Dark tome has the huge words SELL ME on it pretty much. Same with RexBolt unless you actually brought Ilyana. There's a fair number of stones available in the Bargain bin and you can move those around to other Laguz PCs without completely short-changing yourself (game also gives you a few in some people's inventory - you also likely have a gem or two to pass around).

As for whether or not they have initiative, I dunno. You always have initiative in-game which obviously isn't a problem.

I probably view that if enemy's speed > average, then they get first strike. Kinda unintuitive, but its consistent to how I see the rest of the FE duellers. No sense in changing it I suppose.

[superaielman]

Oh, and I obligatorily throw my support to Heather, for being canon Lesbian in an FE game. It's not even the subtext-y Florina stuff, it's just right out there in the open. Hot. This needs to be ranked.

HEATHER AND HER FILTHY PLANS INVOLVING POOR LUCIA CAN BURN IN HELL

[Meeplelard]

I personally allow Olivi Grass.  I might allow Laguz Stones cause it seems there's enough to go around and its not really totally broken; a Laguz Stone does require using a turn afterall (constrast to Formshift which can be used *AND* doesn't take up a complete turn.)

I do allow Royals to have an initiative Formshift; its more representative of in game, and the only time its not the case is with Tibarn as a Guest in 3-E, which feels more like an odd oversight; its a weird exception and the game never duplicates it.  We see other scenarios like Nailah enters in 1-8 and 3-13 already shifted (forget if she does in 3-E, but its impossible to reach her before she shifts), so the whole in game shift honestly feels like a quirk of the battle system where they just went "Screw it, you'll be shifting turn 1 anyway" and all it does is alter move.

The Volug shifting thing was Plot/Gameplay integration; the whole point was that Volug couldn't reveal he was a Laguz, so he stayed in Wolf form the entire way during the Dawn Brigade, as the idea of someone traveling with a pet isn't unheard of, so Volug was just pretending to be a pet (thus he can help in combat without revealing himself).  I think in part 3, we're to understand that Daien is a little more accepting of Laguz, so he can be more open about that (hence the removal of Halfshift)

[Talaysen]

Hmm, not sure I allow laguz items or not.  If a fifth of a different cast got damage items or something I probably wouldn't allow those either, so leaning towards no.

Don't think I let formshifters start transformed either.  They can pretty much only do it on their turn in-game (you can't transform and then go let someone else take a turn, you have to follow through on your move and/or attack).

[Rozalia]

The Volug shifting thing was Plot/Gameplay integration

Thats enough for me. Maintaining Laguz form for that long is something only a select few can do according to Nailah so if he can pull it off then I allow it.