Fire Emblem 10 in the DL

[Ultradude]

Hrm. Well, I definitely allow Olivi Grass - probably like it better than forged Silver because you'll use it more outside of the last couple levels if you use Laguz, and there's assloads of it. Anyone with a Gem in their inventory I allow, much like I let people with special weapons in their starting inventory keep them, since I like making concessions for the sake of variety. MAY allow universal stones instead, dunno yet, but the 'grass and stones = Beorc weapons' argument actually sounds pretty fitting.

I let Formshifters start transformed, since they'll never ever fight in human form.

Boss stuff: Strong no to Ashera.  I'd also like to rank Ashanrd if we're going to rank mantle bosses, since part of mantle is the same goddess protect nonsense.

The difference here is that everyone can fight the Mantle bosses in FE10, as opposed to all of six characters, only three of whom you can use, in FE9.

I'd still support going back and ranking Ashnard, and I'd like Ashera but I'm still not sure how I prefer to take the Auras.

[Dhyerwolf]

I'm assuming Formshift takes up a turn? If so...ouch. I guess I can certainly see the issue with letting Formshifters start transformed (Since Taro doesn't say get his defense buff applied against faster opponent).

[Dark Holy Elf]

Boss stuff: Strong no to Ashera.  I'd also like to rank Ashanrd if we're going to rank mantle bosses, since part of mantle is the same goddess protect nonsense.

Pfffft no. Every single PC breaks Mantle in-game. Goddess Protect is problematic because only a small number do.


Anyway, definitely don't hold with letting duellers get a shot at an untransformed royal since that can never happen in-game. Note that whenever you fight one, they transform immediately. Honestly I think giving them this gross weakness they don't have is one of the sillier views I've heard in a while.

For the question I asked myself, definite Olivi Grass, thinking about Laguz Stones still.

[Luther Lansfeld]

I allow Laguz Stones and Olivi Grass. Regular Laguz have to use their turns to transform, royals do not and get the initiative on transforming. Any other view, in my opinion, leads to worse and more boring duellers and thus I disapprove.

Also:

Boss stuff: Strong no to Ashera.  I'd also like to rank Ashanrd if we're going to rank mantle bosses, since part of mantle is the same goddess protect nonsense.

Pfffft no. Every single PC breaks Mantle in-game. Goddess Protect is problematic because only a small number do.

[Ultradude]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzbRs3t-NXA&feature=related

At around three thirty; all your Laguz start in human form, but they can move, shift, and attack all in one turn. So basically they have less move on their first turn, and that's the only penalty unless you like seeing Caineghis explode.

[Excal]

Actually, Formshift has no cost.  I'm not even sure it locks you into using the unit, though it might.  Never really came up much in either playthrough since the units that have it (outside of one) kick nine kinds of ass.

As for the Auras.  Seems like a good way to deal with them is as an HP Buffer that counters with half damage unless you kill.

[Luther Lansfeld]

Olivi grass allowed, other items are too hard to get for me to allow them to every laguz.

To be fair, they are storebought at Endgame, if that makes you feel any better.

[Rozalia]

Any other view, in my opinion, leads to worse and more boring duellers and thus I disapprove.

I don't see how they're more boring if they start untransformed. Besides Nailah all the royals are boring to begin with as their only attack is a basic physical with a chance of activating a super move, so what exactly makes them less boring if they start transformed? If untransformed you have to think if they can transform and win, whoever they're facing can then use that time to do something that'll make a decent match. Transformed? Well is the Royal's huge overkill physical enough? Yes? Then they win. Nothing at all more interesting in that.

Its true you'll never get into battle with them untransformed but thats due to how the turns work not them. Unless you allow every FE character ever to always have an initiative turn I don't see why this exception should be made.

[Luther Lansfeld]

Was referring to the regular laguz there. I think starting them without items is pretty terrible which is incidentally why I voted against ranking any of them.

[Cmdr_King]

Losing to everyone faster than you that has remotely competent is pretty boring.  And given the nature of laguz stats, pre-transformed royals lose something like 80+ percent of their HP to the opening attack (they WILL be doubled, and have crummy at best defense), which even their godly stats can't let them come back from barring a OHKO.  That's pretty boring.

[Excal]

Not to mention, very few maps let you actually attack in the first round barring freaky long range attack magics and starting off next to a ballista.  So, if you're going to use an in game argument, the Royals can shift first turn, but most FE characters cannot attack first turn.

[Rozalia]

Losing to everyone faster than you that has remotely competent is pretty boring.  And given the nature of laguz stats, pre-transformed royals lose something like 80+ percent of their HP to the opening attack (they WILL be doubled, and have crummy at best defense), which even their godly stats can't let them come back from barring a OHKO.  That's pretty boring.

Doubling (FE doubling that is) is an FE mechanic which if you allow then yeah they're going to get trashed but I doubt everyone allows it. The arguement has been done for DDS and most likely already for FE so I won't get into it. If you allow doubling then cool and if not then thats cool too.

Not to mention, very few maps let you actually attack in the first round barring freaky long range attack magics and starting off next to a ballista.  So, if you're going to use an in game argument, the Royals can shift first turn, but most FE characters cannot attack first turn.

Most maps have you starting next to a few trashy enemies actually. More importantly the end-game where you can actually use the royals have you starting next to enemies all the time so yeah. The arguement you used looks pretty weak to me and more damaging then anything else, So Laguz royal starts transformed yeah but can't attack stright off and must spend a turn getting to the enemy? If the opponent is faster which they most likely will be due to average speed and all that then thats two attacks the royals are taking to the face. One for being slower and then one for the turn it take them to get there so any half decent mage would trash the royals easily.

Or are you saying that you allow initiative but magically don't apply it to non royals because they apparently can't attack first turn? Maybe I'm not understanding you correctly but I don't see how that makes much sense.

Was referring to the regular laguz there. I think starting them without items is pretty terrible which is incidentally why I voted against ranking any of them.

I kind of missed that sorry . Well I can see the arguement for the sake of making them more fun but then theres other casts that should surely deserve such treatment. Like the FF8 cast or the WA3 cast for examples. I agree to the just not ranking them because its less of a bother that way.

[Excal]

Well, in those cases it's the system doing the fighting, whereas here it's still the individual characters, they just need item X in order to be able to fight.  Kinda like how Edward needs a sword in order to fight.

Oh joy.  A trashy enemy.  The bulk of the forces will never be right next to you, and the trashy guys are there mostly to force you to have some considerations for setting up your formation other than the real fight that's coming up.  As for the Royals, they do not lose a turn transforming, so I don't know where you're coming from with that.

[Rozalia]

Squall needs Spell X to equip to his stats, Same thing. Also for the weapon thing but maybe you guys have forgotten that Laguz do have weapons. Their fangs/Beaks whatever are listed as their weapons. Item X is not their weapon so I don't see how that comparison makes sense.

The bulk of the forces will never be right next to you

The map with the black knight in endgame. One instance but whatever because what you said is clutching at straws. Do FFT charactrs have to skip their first turn too? Hell I don't think they even get initiative so they must be highly screwed if you take that view to them too.

As for the Royals, they do not lose a turn transforming, so I don't know where you're coming from with that

Ah yes if they have initiative then thats only one turn of magic they're taking, pardon me for forgetting that. Regardless I don't agree with it because to me allowing the transforming with initiative but not the attacking for the other character strikes me as wrong.

[Dhyerwolf]

Losing to everyone faster than you that has remotely competent is pretty boring.  And given the nature of laguz stats, pre-transformed royals lose something like 80+ percent of their HP to the opening attack (they WILL be doubled, and have crummy at best defense), which even their godly stats can't let them come back from barring a OHKO.  That's pretty boring.

Doubling (FE doubling that is) is an FE mechanic which if you allow then yeah they're going to get trashed but I doubt everyone allows it. The arguement has been done for DDS and most likely already for FE so I won't get into it. If you allow doubling then cool and if not then thats cool too.

I'm not sure there is anyone who doesn't allow an FE character to be doubled based on whatever standard they use. So yeah, given the horrible pre-transformed speed of any Laguz, generally doubling is likely going to factor in (I'd imagine even checking them against in-game enemy speed, but can't say for sure there). Split between seeing them come in transformed effectively and not is like 2-3 divisions! Considering the characters are evil in game and can easily and always transform for free before being attacked, seems like the view that doesn't force them into Light feels a lot more accurate.

I'd also certainly argue that limiting FE characters to a single weapon (like Laguz basically are) really, really doesn't make much difference interest-wise. Really, really, really rare (especially on the PC end) defensive weaknesses are definitely some of the bigger things that stand out to me for the whole series in terms of interest/quirkiness.

[DjinnAndTonic]

My reasoning for not allowing the Formshifters to start a battle transformed was basically because the Initiative turn in FE games isn't a character-specific property, it's just part of the system. I don't allow all Disgaea characters Initiative simply because of the in-game system, so why shouldn't Formshifters have to wait for their turn to transform?

This was also how I thought to view Lethe back when there was consideration for her in FE9's ranking period. She starts with a full transformation gauge and transforms on her first turn. But until that turn actually starts, she's clearly in her human form.

HOWEVER! I'm more lenient with allowing interps based on how it ends up working in-game. So, I have no problem with allowing them to come into a Duel transformed. It's not that different from my view on 'threat range' and how it affects SRPG speed/tiebreaks.

[Rozalia]

seems like the view that doesn't force them into Light feels a lot more accurate.

It hardly puts any of the royals in light. The royals have massive hp and if you go by a equal xp scale then it becomes even larger. There aren't many outside Godlike who have enough offence to kill them before they transform and the ones who do such as say Berserk are too slow.

Once they transform then their offence and defence is enough to take down most heavys. As I see it they would still be decent Heavys so its hardly a massive drop, they just wouldn't have any chance at all in Godlike.

[Dhyerwolf]

Many outside of Godlike who have the damage to kill them before they transform? The HP is nice, but it is balanced by low defenses. I don't exactly quite know how extra levels will balance them out, but let's say they have about average durability all things considered before Formshift. So they'll bite it to faster status (Bad evasion and bad res=they hate status fairly bad), above average speed 2HKOers, and halfway passable variants of the elements they are weak too. Yeah, I guess calling them Lights was wrong on my part, but all it's about going to take to do them in is above average speed 2HKOers. I can name of a few of those in Lights (albeit ones that should be in Middle!).

The damage once transformed is great, but not so incredible that even doubled it's a complete guarantee of victory. Defense/evasion exists (Even if you need a lot of it, Light has someone with 70% evasion or 3 PC Pdur!). Either way, it's making them face this liability phase that they completely avoid in game (And stand out in game among their races for being able to avoid phase it seems like!). I'd certainly take some solid Godlike PCs (With solid all average durability minus the nifty elemental weaknesses, evasion/res to double as status resistance, and some painful damage. Certainly not amazing by any degree or likely to take Godlike by complete storm (just the nature of the division), but still fairly solid. Well, Kurthnaga thanks to not having the smash damage skill and Dragon speed would just be a fairly durable Heavy type.

[Excal]

Given how good they are in game, the equal EXP share is not likely to get them anything more than they already are likely to be credited with.  And their high levels means they are unlikely to gain much in terms of stats.

As for one other thing, the forcing the Royals to hold to this weakness phase that they never have to deal with in game also helps widen the artificial divide between slightly faster than average, and slightly slower, and does so in an entirely unnecessary way.

[Rozalia]

There are quite a few PCs who's usefulness is far above what their ranking would suggest. For example Zell utterly destroys everything ingame while here he is a light. Yeah I know I should bring someone other then an FF8 pc up but no-one is currently coming to mind and I don't have the time to look. Regardless I don't see why I should bend my own views to fit them better.

As for what you said regarding people who can destroy them. They do have average speed which isn't something everyone possesses and being able to attack the turn they transform mean there are plenty of people who are going get mangled.

Given how good they are in game, the equal EXP share is not likely to get them anything more than they already are likely to be credited with.  And their high levels means they are unlikely to gain much in terms of stats.

I've never seen this equal xp thing but I was under the impression that everyone would be an equal level and thus not have capped stats. Going by a normal end-game average I would assume would be full of characters with their stats maxed while in the equal xp they would be in a lower level thus making the royals look better.

[OblivionKnight]

Laguz starting items!

Volug - Halfshift, so doesn't matter
Muarim - Laguz Stone (when he rejoins in Part 4)
Vika - Olivi Grass (when she rejoins in Part 4)
Nailah - Formshift, so doesn't matter
Nealuchi - Laguz Stone
Lethe - Laguz Stone
Mordecai - Olivi Grass
Ranulf - Olivi Grass
Kyza - Laguz Stone
Skrimir - Laguz Stone
Tibarn - Formshift
Naesala - Formshift
Ena - Laguz Stone
Kurthnaga - Olivi Grass, and Formshift!
Caineghis - Formshift
Giffca - Laguz Gem
Gareth - Laguz Stone
Nasir - Laguz Gem

Rafiel, Leanne, Lyre, Reyson, Janaff (though he starts with a Wildheart scroll!), Ulki are the only ones who don't begin with some Laguz transformation item.

[dude789]

PCs I'll support: Michaiah, Sothe, Elincia, Nailah, Cainehgis, Sanaki, Marcia, Skrimir. I'm currently undecided on Lucia, Geoffrey, and the DB. I wish we could rank one of the GM marksmen because they made such and improvement in this game, but that's probably not going to happen.

Bosses I'll support: Zelgius, Lekain, Sephiran, Ashera, Jarod, Dheginsea, Izuka. I'm unsure on Ludvek. He has enough plot, but he's optional and depending on who you take him against he's either pretty good or pretty bad. Elincia destroys him, but almost everyone else has trouble damaging him and take a lot of damage from him.

Laguz stuff: All of the laguz get Olivi grass at least for me. If ranked I'll allow Nasir and Giffca to keep their gems as well. PCs with Formshift start the fight transformed. Do we say that Disgaea PCs instantly lose to people who are above average speed because the faster character jumps in and destroys the base panel before the characters is deployed? No, they get to come out of the base panel before the fight starts and to me formshift is the same. The Laguz Royals are great units and are are statistically superior in all aspects to some PCs, but with this restriction they might lose fights that these other PCs win because of being hit before they can transform despite this never happening in game. Yes, there are other PCs that get screwed over, but in Zell's case everyone in the cast gets screwed over not just him.

[Meeplelard]

Shifting works like this, cause there seemed to be some question:

Shifting (regardless if its Formshift, normal, or Half) counts as an action in the same sense using Conversation does; the character is locked into the panel they it on, UNLESS they have Canto.  However, Canto or not, they cannot attack the turn they shift unless there is an enemy adjacent to them after they shift.  This means that unless that extra move matters, the first turn they shift does not take up a turn at all, providing they move first, then shift.  The only penalty is lack of move, as was noted.

Using Items, however, does take up a full turn, cause its using an item, not shifting.  Naturally, Canto lets people like Janaff or Vika able to move after it, but they can't ATTACK after using it.  Basically, even if you allow Laguz Gems or Stones, the normal Laguz will be at a disadvantage relative to Laguz Royals.  Since Laguz Royals can shift and transform on the same turn (and in Volug's case, Halfshift), I'm inclined to give them that 'Free Turn' to transform.  They can't attack on this free turn, so we'll say its like "initiative, but enemy is ALWAYS out of range of attack" as a compromise, if you want to look at it that way.
Flipside, since Laguz items actually use a turn, I'd be inclined to NOT give the Laguz a free turn cause its a genuine turn usage.  In game, Giffca may start with Laguz GEms and enough to sustain him the entire Endgame, but he's still worse than Caineghis cause Caineghis can attack on his first turn regardless, while Giffca cannot (E-3 aside, where every Laguz starts with a full Gauge)

Also, dude, Gareth starts with a Laguz STONE, not a Laguz Gem, so allowing him the Gem is silly!  Granted, Dragon Transformation upkeeps are so good, a stone should have no problems lasting the entire fight.

In the end, though, forcing Formshift to take a turn is giving the Royals a disadvantage they do NOT have in game.  The item usage, however, is a different story; whether you let them get a free turn to use it immediately, but force them to skip their next normal turn or whatever, an Item should steal the first offensive turn for that Laguz at very least, cause in game, that's exactly what it does.  Formshift (and Halfshift), you're functionally shifted from the beginning to end.

EDIT: Also, I agree with Elfboy regarding Mantle.  Its not like Goddess Protect on grounds that every PC used in Endgame (even the 2 you get later on) can break it with at least one attack (Defenses aside), where as Goddess Protect is breakable by 3 PCs per file (6 PCs total cast wise)

[Rozalia]

Do we say that Disgaea PCs instantly lose to people who are above average speed because the faster character jumps in and destroys the base panel before the characters is deployed?

People have to be lifted and thrown into a deployment square for it to be destroyed, simply walking or jumping isn't going to work unless theres an exception somewhere and I'm mistaken.
I disallow and I'm sure many as well the base panel because its an unfair advantage for them. Allowing it is basically giving all Disgaea PCs initiative.

Regardless I don't see how its comparable. If you allow crap like them starting transformed then surely you allow FF7 Pcs to start with a full limit bar or FF9 pcs with a nearly full trance bar. The two examples are possible yet not allowed by most people. This transformed at the start stuff isn't possible yet a lot of people seem to be all for it oddly.

In the end, though, forcing Formshift to take a turn is giving the Royals a disadvantage they do NOT have in game.

I'm not forcing it to take a turn because in game you can attack after using it. What I'm not allowing is initiative.

[OblivionKnight]

The way I always interpreted Goddess Protect in FE9 (and the way I'd carry it over to the DL) was that it was breakable by legendary weapons, breathing, and special claws/talons/beaks.  Honestly, I don't think it's enough of an issue to keep Ashnard/Blackie out based on the FE9 stuff (for all that FE10 corrects the latter's issues to most).  I'd support Ashnard, as he's plot important and relatively interesting.