Fire Emblem 10 in the DL

[dude789]

Also, dude, Gareth starts with a Laguz STONE, not a Laguz Gem, so allowing him the Gem is silly!  Granted, Dragon Transformation upkeeps are so good, a stone should have no problems lasting the entire fight.

In the end, though, forcing Formshift to take a turn is giving the Royals a disadvantage they do NOT have in game.  The item usage, however, is a different story; whether you let them get a free turn to use it immediately, but force them to skip their next normal turn or whatever, an Item should steal the first offensive turn for that Laguz at very least, cause in game, that's exactly what it does.  Formshift (and Halfshift), you're functionally shifted from the beginning to end.

I was referring to Giffca for the laguz gem not Gareth, I'll check my first post to make sure I didn't swap the two. Aside from that I agree with what you say about item use and formshift. For me formshifters and Halfshifters start transformed, but item users have to wait until they use it and take a turn to use the item.

[OblivionKnight]

Mmm...so, how large of a rank would people support and prefer? 

I know the Elven One mentioned small vs. large, but what would people support?

This has a few separate parts
- Would you prefer, at face value, a large or small rank?
- Based on the carry-over plot from both games, would you be more accepting of a large rank?
- What about FE9/10 fan favourites?
- Based on your own views and who you'd personally support, would you prefer a large or small rank?
- Would you be amiable to ranking more characters later?

[Ultradude]

I guess I'll mention that yes, items should definitely take a turn.

No we're not allowing the Formshifters initiative. Initiative would be letting them shift and attack on the first turn. Shifting becoming manual in FE10 was a major improvement on the usefulness of Laguz compared to auto-shifting when the fight starts in FE9. You're penalizing them for an improvement to the game.

FF8 is, unfortunately, different in that it's just too difficult to figure out who to let junction what; if I found a criteria I'd like, I might allow junctions on everyone, and who knows what will happen when I finally play the game for myself. In FF7 the limit bar is not always full. You cannot necessarily use a Limit Break at the start of every single battle, and something has to happen to the characters for the bar to fill. Formshift is always, always full, with nothing needing to happen to the character. If the limit bar simply filled a little bit every turn instead of being damage-based I'd allow starting limit bars to be half full or even full depending on rate of refill, etc. etc.

[DjinnAndTonic]

I'll go on record as saying that the FE10 addition of the skills really helps out the cast a lot compared to previous FE casts, so I don't mind a slightly larger rank here (I was against it with FE9 due to the lack of all that many DL-legal skills).

In my ideal world, we'd cull a bunch of near-identical PCs from FE7 (Seriously... Vaida? -All- the Archers?). And then having more FE10 PCs wouldn't create so many carbon-copy-type duelist overlap. But... FE7 has more solid playership, so it's never happening.

[superaielman]

This has a few separate parts
- What about FE9/10 fan favourites?
- Based on your own views and who you'd personally support, would you prefer a large or small rank?
- Would you be amiable to ranking more characters later?

OK's questions:

1. Small rank
2. No. A lot of the PC's who got more plot in the games  are Laguz, who we aren't touching. Characters like Shinon and Rolf have horrible votesplit as well.
3. We've hit most of the big ones from FE9.
4.  Small-medium sized rank. I would like to rank some of the Laguz (Lethe, Moredachi, Volug, Ranulf. Fuck Giffca of the no plot and potential massive votesplit though). I don't support the bosses much. The final boss in particular feels like a bad fit, and Izuka is a bad rank.  I should say that ranking size does hinge on how many writers we have on the ground when the game goes in. (Write more for the DL if you like FE10 and want to see it ranked! We always need help there)
5. Sure, we can rank more later. I don't think the draw is going to support a large game though.

Support: Miciah, Sothe, Naliah, Cain, Sanaki, Oliver, Seph, Zelgius, Lekain, Elincia (Forgot her)
Maybe: Lucia, Geoffery, Taruoneo, Marcia, Zihark
Doubtful: Edward, Nolan, Leo, Laura, Haar, Meg, Aran, Ashnard (FE9), Bastian, Ilyana
Depends entirely on the conclusions we reach for item/transform legality: Volug, Nasir, Lethe, Mordeachi, Ranulf
No: Emo loser dragon boss, Ashera, Jarod (Not only does he not translate, he isn't memorable as a fight in the least minus the authority star nonsense which is useless in the DL.), Herons, Giffca, Kurth (Not a combat PC), Kieran (Awesome PC in FE9, but plot light+just another Paladin in the DL), Muarim (Forced or not, he is a total scrub in both games), Skrimir (Just don't find him memorable as a PC in spite of the character work), hawks (Massive votesplit), Valtome. Just commenting on stuff, this is a blanket no unless otherwise noted. EDIT: Hell no to Pellas.

We went fairly light on FE9 rankings, so I don't have a huge problem with this being bigger.

[dude789]

Here's an example of why I think the Laguz royals should start transformed. Say one of them has to go up against Marcia. If they are untransformed then they have 7 move to Marcia's 9  so she gets the first turn if you use move as a tiebreak. Using Meeple's stat topic. Marcia will kill Naesala in that turn and leave Tibarn and Nailah with so little health that Marcia can kill them in one hit even if they're transformed (we'll ignore Caineghis for now because she can't break his transformed defense). After they've transformed she'll have about a 40% chance to hit both of them for the fatal blow. Against Tibarn she doesn't have a great chance, but Nailah doesn't double her so she gets at least two chances there. This is completely ignoring skills and criticals for now, but they probably give the edge to Marcia because Stun has one of the higher hit rates.

I know that the royals won't always be fighting other FE10 characters, but I don't think this type of fight will be rare if you force the royals to start untransformed. Statwise the only stat Marcia beats transformed Nailah and Tibarn in is Res and she only beats Naesala in Luck and very slightly defense. The royals all thrash her in the other stats. Despite this she beats them, while in game they are very much superior units to her when they are around.      

[Meeplelard]

Yeah, we are *NOT* allowing true initiative turns.  Its basically a fake turn that they can use for (Half)shift and NOTHING ELSE; its like they're being DEPLOYED as shifted units.  In game, the only difference is the change in movement; it makes the difference between Tibarn's 9 Move vs. his 10 Move shifted, which while kind of noteworthy in game, is unimportant for him as a combat PC (matters for utility purposes that don't apply in the DL.)

With Stones/Gems? I think we can all agree that, provided you allow them, they WILL take up a turn.  This isn't as big a penalty in game (it means Caineghis can kill one more enemy on the player phase relative to Giffca), but its still there.  Its also a FULL ACTION; using an item in Fire Emblem counts as a full action, and obviously requires the character's turn.

Heck, enemies even follow these rules.  Nasir/Gareth in E-3 are enemies who use Stones/Gems.  If their gauge runs out, they WILL use a Gem/Stone to recharge themselves, and it DOES kill a turn entirely, regardless how close you are to them; these two WILL attack if you you're in their range, mind (provided its not Kurthnaga or Ena you're using).  May be the only case where enemy Laguz use such items, but they're still there.

I dunno, dude labeled the issue I have with assuming they start unshifted well.  In game, Caineghis, Tibarn, etc. are clearly much better PCs than Marcia, Jill, what have you.  The DL will say otherwise, for a silly technicality, and doesn't reflect them at all.  People remember characters like Tibarn destroying entire fields single handedly, one shotting everything effortlessly (shut up Red Dragons), what have you; suddenly going "hey, Marcia wins!" is like the most unintuitive thing ever.  Like dude said, you're giving an interp that slams the best PCs in the game, giving them a penalty they do not have in game.
If you don't like the initiative rule, why not just go wtih the "Deployed Shifted" factor then?  Again, Nailah does this at least twice, Volug does it through the entirety of Part 1; it feels like a reasonable compromise.  They get to be as strong as they are in game, but aren't getting arbitrarily inflated with an Initiative like some people seem to be afraid of.  
In addition to all that, even the most lenient of Laguz Item interps, it STILL Gives the Royals an advantage that normal Laguz do not, since they do not have to kill a turn using said item, thus can go on the offensive immediately.  Beorc have this advantage on Normal Laguz, but *NOT* on those using Halfshift or Formshift, and it should be reflected that way.  Meanwhile, there's 0 advantage to using someone like Gatrie over Caineghis outside of "Gatrie can hit from range" and "Gatrie isn't weak to fire" but those problems will be represented ANYWAY cause they're entirely different arguments unrelated to shifting;  Caineghis is still weak to Fire and still 100% Melee, if these weaknesses are relevant, they'll come up in the DL.  But the fact that Caineghis starts the battle unshifted on a technicality?

Never matters; Gatrie will never be able to capitalize on this in game, cause Caineghis CAN shift and attack on the same turn.  If Shifting took an actual turn, then you'd have an argument, but it very much does not.

Middle grounds do exist people!

[Monkeyfinger]

If you don't like the initiative rule, why not just go wtih the "Deployed Shifted" factor then?  Again, Nailah does this at least twice, Volug does it through the entirety of Part 1; it feels like a reasonable compromise.  They get to be as strong as they are in game, but aren't getting arbitrarily inflated with an Initiative like some people seem to be afraid of. 

Actually, I'm sold on this. While they don't always start transformed, they CAN, and that's enough for me to give them the benefit of the doubt to say they will in the DL.

[VySaika]

Laguz with Formshift deploy shifted for me. Laguz without it can use Olivi Grass unless they start with a Laguz Stone/Gem in which case they can use that.

EDIT: And of course Volug can always decide to go Halfshift, in which case he deploys Halfshifted. IIRC nobody else has Halfshift anyway.

[Rozalia]

If you don't like the initiative rule, why not just go wtih the "Deployed Shifted" factor then?  Again, Nailah does this at least twice, Volug does it through the entirety of Part 1; it feels like a reasonable compromise.  They get to be as strong as they are in game, but aren't getting arbitrarily inflated with an Initiative like some people seem to be afraid of.  

Fair enough. Nailah does do it twice so it wouldn't be a stretch to say all the royals can also I suppose. The initiative thing was what I had a problem with.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Oh yeah, just to be perfectly clear, I'm certainly not letting anyone attack with initiative. I just consider them initiative shifted or that they come in that way, since it's far, far truer to in-game.

I'm fairly neutral to all of OK's questions overall.

Oh, since I just noticed him on Super's doubtful list, I'm really not happy with Nasir as a rank overall. Yeah, Nasir can actually be used as a combat PC, but in my experience very few people notice it, he's still mostly a support guy. A few days ago in chat most people expressed utter disbelief when I noted he had more magic attack than Micaiah (even post-White Pool), for instance, despite the fact they'd all used him! Yeah, only around for two maps is not someone I'm willing to brave the laguz interpretation splits for ranking. FE9 form is of course even worse, only two maps + splitpath! Kurth is a much better ranking idea and I'm not super-enthusiastic about Kurth. <_<

[Ultradude]

This has a few separate parts
- Would you prefer, at face value, a large or small rank?

Medium-ish. FE9 has done well enough, and if gets people looking to rank it I'll try to start writing here and there on the few matches I know enough about.

- Based on the carry-over plot from both games, would you be more accepting of a large rank?

Only affects a few characters, though it helps support those it does - Geoffrey, Lucia, Tauroneo, Zihark... maybe Marcia? Ranulf?

- What about FE9/10 fan favourites?

Like Super said, we hit the FE9 fan favorites. No one from the DB really counts I think - Nolan and Edward are used, but they have a lot of issues in game, even if they CAN be really good.

- Based on your own views and who you'd personally support, would you prefer a large or small rank?

I tend to lean towards medium-large ranks, focusing on characters that everyone is going to get some use out of or who have interesting skills or weapons - Volug, for example, is extremely useful in part 1 and starts with Halfshift, which he may want to use in the DL. Edward is vaguely plot-relevant and has Wrath on a character with a high crit rate. Royal Laguz in general are neat.

- Would you be amiable to ranking more characters later?

I'm always cool with ranking more characters later. Like Yuan and Rodyle.

[Luther Lansfeld]

RANK ME!!!! MWAHAA!

[DjinnAndTonic]

RANK ME!!!! MWAHAA!

Well, I'm convinced!

The best part is that I can't pronounce the name of Leonardo's weapon so mentally I just hear this Cthulhu-esque jarble of syllables followed by "yo face, biatch!"

[superaielman]

Re: Meeple's use on items

Would people see that turn as average speed (Using items)?

If Naliah starts some maps transformed, it is good enough to go with allowing Laguz royals to start transformed.

[Pyro]

Formshifted folk start shifted for me, Volug can opt for Halfshift if he wants (blech), and regular Laguz... I'm still not sure. I don't think I give them the start shifted treatment even if I DO allow them gems/the lot. As far as averages go I guess that means I assume the royals start shifted and the rest of the Laguz don't.

I'm not sure what to rank honestly, other than the shoe-ins and the Laguz Royals (sans Kurth, probably). If Ciato reaalllly wants Leo I wouldn't object to it, sure.

[Meeplelard]

Would people see that turn as average speed (Using items)?

Pretty sure I see that turn as any other turn.  It does inflate the "Auto Shift" nature of Halfshift and Formshift, but I can't realistically say its an Autoshift.  Especially since it requires actually using an action that is equivalent to any other turn.  Using a Laguz Stone is, after all, no different than using a Vulnerry, just the effect is different; its still accessing the item, using a limited resource, and something happens, and it takes up your turn (Canto aside.)

It does inflate Formshift and Halfshift compared to regular Laguz, but I guess the flipside is that Laguz in game have to worry about upkeeps and what not, something that doesn't apply in the DL usually cause most fights are over before then.  Though, does matter quite a bit with Laguz Gems cause a Laguz Gem is only slightly worse than Formshift in game, albeit, Formshift has the luxury of allowing far more flexibility, which again, is a factor that matters in game, as it means you need that many less Gems to maximize your team, so...eh, consider that an extra bonus for Formshifters?

Either way, Formshifters (and Volug) shifting immediately fits fine for me, but items are actually using items, and it is something that is a penalty in game, so I can't give them the same luxury.

If Naliah starts some maps transformed, it is good enough to go with allowing Laguz royals to start transformed.

I believe the Auto Shifting happens in the following (only covering those with Halfshift and Formshift):
Volug: The entirety of Part 1 he's available, and supposedly, whenever he's an enemy he's auto shifted (applies to 3-7 and 3-E, I believe?)
Nailah: Auto Shifted in 1-8 (it chains from a plot scene, where she either enters in Wolf form, or she shifts in the scene then attacks. This is meaningless either way though.)  Near the end of 3-13, she'll join the fight as an independent neutral unit, again, auto shifted.  I believe she auto-shifts at the beginning of 3-E.
Tibarn: Pretty sure 3-11, he shifts in the plot scene he appears before actually doing anything, but could be wrong.
Kurthnaga: Auto Shifts at beginning of 3-E.  He doesn't have Formshift here so his time is limited, but still thought I'd bring it up.

Caineghis and Naesala never have an Instant Shift Moment, but the former has very little plot of which to work with, and the latter's first fight is when he's a regular PC.

Either way, there are examples of the Formshifters entering fights automatically shifted, which is enough forme to let them enter the fight that way (or shift in a initiative pseudo-turn)

[SnowFire]

Thread necro, hooray, let's talk about interps for characters who are such headaches that they don't even get used in CK's board tournies.

So.  FE10 Laguz.  I have to say, by usual DL interp standards, I'd have to hold them to not transforming until they get a turn - and that goes for Laguz royals too (who usually come in untransformed; same with Volug after Chapter 1).  This has the problem of catapulting them all into Light and bearing approximately 0 resemblance to what happens in-game, where you have the first move (rather than there being per-character initiative).  So...  the standard DL interp is just a bad fit here, and I think it's better to throw it out.

The best solution - at least to me - is that rather than trying to replicate the first turn, which often doesn't matter very much (sometimes there's nothing in range to kill anyway, royals can't be ganked before getting a chance to use Shift), attempt to replicate a situation in the middle of a battle.  Royals will already have transformed by then, and other laguz will have their gague somewhere indeterminate.  The hardcore solution is to roll 1d60 - 30, although that's only appropriate for (possibly short) RPGmon type matches, and probably overstates how often laguz get near combat untransformed - they're pretty much non-combat units who must be kept in the back lest they die when untransformed, so you won't go picking fights when they're like that.  So perhaps a d30 and assume transformed.  This is still a bit shaky for a DL type situation where people want something a bit more reliable.  So, in the tradition of half-full gagues, I'd say that FE10 Laguz start transformed at 15 energy.  This makes gague drain relevant (like it is in-game) and reflects the advantage royals have, while not making FE10 laguz puny when they don't win initiative.  Volug can pick between 15 gauge fullshifted and 30 gauge half-shifted.

As for items...  hmm.  Olivi Grass is certainly cheap and plentiful at endgame, but so are Concoctions, and few people allow item healing.  It also was reasonably expensive to aggressively use Olivi Grass earlier in the game.  I think I'd allow a single Olivi Grass just to throw the laguz a bone, for all that when facing healers, skipping a turn to use Grass to stay transformed is still potentially devastating, and it can even run out its 8 charges in the likes of Ranulf vs. Mint.

Anyway.  Unsurprisingly Skrimir likes this interp, Ranulf is mad that he has to spend a third of his turns huffing Grass (like in-game if you want him to fight constantly).  Weirdly enough that's still probably better than FE9 Ranulf which gives up turn 1 entirely in slugfests and loses even more hardcore to stallers from giving up ~4 turns in a row if the fight goes long.  Ena likes this too, another slow gauge for her; plus her FE9 PC form is quasi-legal / terrible, and her FE9 boss form has non-moving 1-range "fails forever against ranged" problems.

Also, I think Meeple's halfshifted averages are the best to use.  Using full-shifted Laguz doesn't reflect the notable weakness they have half the time that is one of the main reasons to use Beorc, but using unshifted Laguz is weird since, as noted, those are basically non-combatants whose job is to run away on the battlefield; using those figures for the averages inflates the cast.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Olivi Grass is certainly cheap and plentiful at endgame, but so are Concoctions, and few people allow item healing. 

The difference is, of course, that Olivi Grass is unique to laguz (and effectively non-royal laguz), which is something like a sixth of the cast. I could see banning it anyway of course, but there's decent precedent to allow such things.

It also was reasonably expensive to aggressively use Olivi Grass earlier in the game. 

Now, this I have to disagree with pretty strongly. My last playthrough was laguz-only, and I was the most fabulously wealthy I'd ever been in FE10, and rest assured I bought Olivi Grass like it was the latest fad. The reason is that grass is notably cheaper than buying weapons. To give you an idea, one you could buy four sets of Olivi Grass for less than some assumed DL weapons for the humans. I don't think too highly of harsh limits on it, as such. Fortunately I don't think it will come up too often.

Transformed at 15 gauge is pretty fair interp. Dunno if I'd use it myself, but it's a reasonable enough reflection of in-game. It doesn't reflect the fact that laguz are fairly useless player phase 1 (and sometimes 2) but how much this matters varies a good deal anyway. I certainly like this view far more than anything which allows the royals to be initiative-killed, but I think I've made my opinion on that clear enough.

(Idly, I suspect Ranulf may prefer FE10 form to FE9 form even with my harsher views on laguz, because holy shit are FE9 laguz bad at endgame, see Sanaki vs. Lethe9 this week. I'd have to think about that though. Flipside, FE9 boss Ena, whatever penalties you stick on her, is almost certainly better than her FE10 appearance.)

Also, I think Meeple's halfshifted averages are the best to use

For the interp you use, unquestionably; I agree with your arguments. For the currently most common interp (start at 0 gauge), no-shifted probably makes more sense... transforming is more of a pure buff in that case. Sadly this ends up as a fairly notable interp-split for everyone else, but that's life.

Oh, and one last thing:

they're pretty much non-combat units who must be kept in the back lest they die when untransformed

If you ever do a FE10 replay, you should use Ulki. <.<

[SnowFire]

Ulki still has nightmares about the vision he had of himself getting gunned down by a crossbow *while transformed* in 3-7, the first map he showed up on, despite a 3 star authority advantage, on a respectable ~37 Hit or so.  Ulki knows that his fans claimed he was immune to everything, including bows, and thus Ulki could fly in their vicinity with no worries.  Yet Ulki could feel in his heart of hearts the terrible knowledge that the Great Guiding Spirit was most wroth at having to reload a battle save, and that further failures might not meet such lenient treatment.  Ulki knows better now, yes.  Ulki knows that the bow is a kind and merciful master that would never hurt him, and he would never imagine getting near an archer again, yes, not even when transformed, but especially not when untransformed.  Oh, why no, Mr. Archer, you're there, I'm over here, and I'll stay over here, no need to get excited, we're friends!  I wouldn't dream of offending you, nope.  It won't be like that other time - the time that *never happened*.  Why won't Janaff believe me?  The cheery fool...  he doesn't know.  Not like Ulki knows.  The truth.  The terrible truth.  Oh, god.  Pass some more of that wine.

Ulki's wife is beginning to get concerned.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Hilariously your story does nothing to deflect my flippant point, as untransformed flying laguz aren't weak to crossbows!

Also if someone told you anyone who is weak to crossbows can afford to laugh at them, that person is a foolish fool who sought to engineer your downfall.  Ulki (and the other hawks to a lesser extent) don't care much about regular bows, but one does not laugh at crossbows without taking... precautions.(Nullify's a pretty cool skill, idly.)

[Meeplelard]

Its worth noting that the Crossbow wielding guy(s) in 4-P are pretty much the only thing keeping Naesala from just going buck wild on that chapter.  That's really the only thing he needs to be careful of.