DL Mafia GAME OVER Scum Win

[Luther Lansfeld]

I don't terribly like Yoshi's attack on Snowfire and it makes me somewhat leery of the Snowfire train building. I find the attacking MC over the reporting to be inane -- I think a lot of players do this (Cranbud, Mage) just as a force of habit and I don't think MC's any different. I basically disagree with everything Yoshi says and I think he is consistently trying to stick charges on others.

At the risk of being accused of being too flip-floppy (haha Day 1) I think I am going to just go a different direction since I like Snowfire's latest content better and Yoshi's much worse.

Rat really isn't impressing me so far but we'll see how that pans out.

Xanth makes some really great points; I also think QR needs to appear again at some point but whatever, I can't criticize really~ Or maybe I can, since she has a vote on me for that reason~

I really need to read over what Laggy is saying again, but I'm at work and I'm supposed to be reading a paper or something so *waves*

All the LaL talk is boooring. Just lynch Alice first in every game~? Whatever. I think we have enough content now not to quibble over this stuff.

##UNVOTE: Snowfire
##VOTE: Yoshi

[Kilgamayan]

I'm okay with my vote on Xanth for the time being, though for different reasons.  Rereading...Xanth's sum content is a verbose playstyle argument, and a defence of said verbose playstyle argument, and a vote on Laggy based on playstyle arguments.  Basically, nothing I can work with; I don't really want to let low-content off the hook the moment I see "ooh, weak logic! Squish it!"

If this was your reasoning for voting Xanth, why didn't you say so when you first voted him? It's not like he had done a whole lot between your initial vote and this post, so I can't imagine what about him would have changed.

This smacks terribly of retconning ("I'm voting Xanth for this thing." "Wait, what, why? What's the deal? Why aren't you voting for these other people with which you have better issues?" "Uh, I mean, I'm voting Xanth for this other thing!") and isn't all that great an argument anyway (Xanth's vote was/is on Laggy for selective meta usage, not a playstyle argument, unless actively ignoring contradictory evidence qualifies as a playstyle now).

[Excal]

Alright, it is regrettable that this has come up, but.  Quietrain has recently injured her back, and between the pain killers fogging her mind, and sitting not being a good position we have both decided that her health takes priority over this game.  So, I will be looking for replacements for Quietrain.

If I cannot find anything by the start of Day 2, then I will have to modkill her.  But I am hoping to avoid that.

[Kilgamayan]

Bard?

[metroid composite]

If this was your reasoning for voting Xanth, why didn't you say so when you first voted him?

Becuase at the time I did not feel I was understanding Xanth's post (apparently still not according to you) and thus could not get a proper evaluation on him.  At the time I made the second post, I still did not feel I could get a proper evaluation on Xanth.

That said he's posted now so...

#51 (Metroid's big player action summary): very much in Rat's (#55) camp with regards to this, except more so as a convenient vehicle for misrep than it is for reporting (not to understate the reporting that is present). I count two and a half pieces of incorrect information on myself alone, and that's being generous.

Interesting.  I know of one that I agreed on earlier--which was more of a "wait, wow, I totally missed the meaning of that post.  What is Xanth actually saying?"  Based on the context I'm guessing the second one is that you don't like is using the term "anti-LAL" rather than "anti-early-LAL".  (Fair but doesn't really change my opinion, since I've really only used it in the context of "gets into playstyle arguments".  I don't particularly feel these are, to quote, "important and dangerous differences").  What's the 2.5th point?  I'm having trouble guessing just by reading your post.

Agree about Quiet Rain--QR is someone I'd be just as happy to pressure for more content as I was pressuring you, although she has an IRL excuse, and if nothing else there are low content people who do not.  (For example, Noyn still hasn't posted again, but has been online 60 minutes ago).  NINJA'D and...all speculation on QR is now not particularly helpful.

Chasing me because I'm slow to update votes is...reasonable; I'll count that as content.


Hmm...not entirely happy about this Xanth post.  Making a big deal about "anti-early-LAL" rather than "anti-LAL" is...what?  Honestly, to me it's self-evident that "LAL vs anti-LAL" means "LAL in the current game context vs anti-LAL in the current game context."  The QR complaint is reasonable...she makes a post that doesn't take a strong stand on much, then just disappears; except she has an excuse, and there are other people like that.  This may just be a matter of "Xanth needs a reread to catch those other people."  But...for the moment, enough new content with the promise of more makes Xanth not one of my top priorities.

##Unvote: Xanth

In the mean time, I'm really not OK with Noyn passing under the radar.  Noyn discussions have been moslty missing the part where Noyn hasn't posted since May 23 when the "oh my god can't vote" kept him from talking about anyone besides himself...and yet he has logged in since then without posting.  Noyn: you've been around; you've presumably seen people calling for your opinions; why didn't you post?

##Vote: Noyn

[Excal]

Alright, I have managed to find a replacement, so let's all thank Roukanken for stepping in for Quietrain.

[Roukanken]

asdfghjkl I wasn't paying attention to this thread and now I need to replace gah

Okay, here's what I have to say about everything so far.

- Noyn shenanigans. He has no vote, this means nothing, though his willingness to move his vote on command is troubling. MotK has taught me that scum <> stupid, though, and he's apparently new so yeah. No vote <> no opinion, though, so SAY SOMETHING.

- LAL suggestions. Ahahahahaha no. It's like a day into D1, and Alice/Rat are like this all the time. You know this. (Yes, I'm willing to say that QR was being stupid with the LAL attack because D1 LAL attacks are stupid and why are we actually arguing this.)

- Makkotah, you are making it hard for me to believe you were Daniels in Cthulhu Mafia. Panicking over a Carth quicklynch in ED1? Really? Plus going along with the LAL idea?

- MC rubs me the wrong way with the case on Tai, especially with what I will now dub The Imouto Complex. Basically the threat of 'oh noes, if you suspect me people will vote against you!' sounds very defensive for no good reason. That and the list of Who Has Content is pure IIoA.

- Snowfire have you taken your Ritalin because you're like on Carth then off him then back on then onto Laggy then back to Carth for 'he's making sense BUT IT'S BAD SENSE' graaah

##Remove QR's Vote: Ciato
Vote: Makkotah

More that's coherent and looking over the game in full when I'm not about to go to bed.

[Excal]

Hey, Vern!  Lookit me, I got me a votecount!

Day 1 Votes

Alice (0): Cyril, Quietrain, [i[Metroid[/i]
Carthrat (1): Snowfire, Taishyr, Taishyr, Metroid, Snowfire, Cyril, Snowfire
Cyril (3): Ciato, Snowfire, Xanth, Yoshiken, Kilga
Taishyr (0): Taishyr, Quietrain, Metroid
Xanth (1): Xanth, Metroid, Taishyr
Ciato (1): Zenny, Quietrain
MC (1): Kilga, Carthrat, Alice
Kilga (0): Taishyr, Yoshiken
Zenny (1): Taishyr, Kilga, Roukanken
Yoshiken (2): Cyril, Ciato
Snowfire (1): Ciato, Alice
Noyn (1): Excal, Excal, Metroid
Excal (0): Snowfire

No Vote: Noyn

This is your 24 hour warning!  Just 24 hours in Day 1!

Unless of course a miracle happens and you all get 7 votes on one target!

[Excal]

Alright, fresh off of dealing with Quietrain, I have been informed that Cyril's corporate masters are most evil, and let's just say that his free time and energy in said free time have gone missing under suspicious circumstances.  What does this mean?  Same deal as Quietrain, I'll be looking for a replacement for him as well.

[Xanth]

Okay, so dinner turned into actually being sociable. Oops. Let's see how far I get before I fall asleep in the chair.

A note first: after this comes sleep, then the same very short period between me waking up and leaving the house. Not that most of you guys need to be coordinating the deadline yet or anything, but my next real appearance will be in the few hours leading up to (and including) it.

...

Metroid: 'He's metagaming'. 'He's cherry picking evidence to fit an argument'. One of these has no hope of getting any support at all. Likewise with the LaL stuff. The distinction is major, and dragged discussion off in the wrong direction. Anyway, the points in #51 I was referring to were 'anti-LAL stance' (1), 'voting Laggy for the same reasons as Snowfire' (2) and 'dislikes Laggy metagaming' (2 1/2). The latter in that while it's technically true, it's not the spirit of the meaning. I'd've called it a straight up three if not for wanting to avoid the semantics.

Anyway, on pondering Metroid the point that's really made me stay my vote is that it just doesn't feel like a sensible scum gambit. I mean sure, lots of activity and blather and vote delay and all that, but I just don't see the coordination or purpose behind it. Flighty high profile arguments that get immediate scrutiny does not make for a safe scum start. Not sure I can so easily see the gambit played on a relatively new player. It's not something I can afford to let go for long, but I can hold to it in the vacuous hole that is the day one crapshoot at least.

Laggy on the other hand looks about as bad as can realistically be at this point. Overplayed argument followed by the flusterbus when last I commented on the situation, following up with some fairly solid game theory help - otherwise known as looking helpful and townie without actually being helpful and townie when combined with little else - the vote hoping, the unvote without re-vote (yes I think that's bad in this situation), and then some good old fashioned absence. Not that I'd hold quite so much against the timeframe of the latter yet, in fairness.

...

(mod ninja)

lol wut. One of my top pair goes and fair enough, but now the other?

I mean, totally not your fault, guys. Obviously. QR especially I hope recovers quick and that attempting this game at all didn't add more stress or anything. But yeah, vexing in game.

I'd say that kills my motivation to do any more this evening, but given that I'm taking Roukanken as a blank slate from QR's lurkiness, I'd basically come to settle on Laggy, as much as I guess at least the absence has now been explained. I'd move away, but there's enough there already that I don't think I can easily justify jumping off. Other than Metroid, who I've just convinced myself doesn't need pursuing today, I guess I'd be looking at Makkotah or Yoshiken, but mostly from other people's rationale. I get the impression that Makkotah has just made a bit of a mess out of the day (I'm not sure how scum fake-explaining my argument would particularly work). Can't say I'm getting great vibes from Yoshiken, but nor particularly terrible ones, but maybe that's just because I'm nodding along to things like his Laggy material.

So, uh, yeah, a bit of a mess here.

I've stayed up far too late to stand a chance of doing anything in the morning, but given how messy this has suddenly becomes I'll try and sneak on at lunchtime to get an extra chance at this.

[SnowFire]

Welcome, stranger.  So, uh, Roukanken.  Any hobbies we should know about, like getting into tournament duels with RPG characters?  Or is that not really your thing?  Just checking.

More seriously, re your comment - and I don't pretend to have any special SCUM RAT INSIGHT here - Rat is a good player, he's not likely to make any howler of a mistake if he did draw scum.  Henchman Mafia I was on Rat's case for exactly "Rat is making sense but BAD SENSE" - "Rat is posting content which is consistent but I don't like it, and there's not much of it."  And he actually was scum that game!  (Then again maybe I was just lucky with a shot in the dark.  Who knows.)

Okay.  Looked things over.  Kilga's point about mc retconning...  okay, that's actually decent.  Could be "didn't write down all my reasons," could be retconning.  May have to revise opinion of mc somewhat downward, although still not entirely comfortable with a Day 1 train here if for no other reason than it's even harder than Day-1-usual to get a proper read on a newbie with just Day 1 content (see: EternalLurker D1 lynch).

Looking back...  hmm, several people of interest.  I've looked back at Yoshi's post, and...  I'm not happy (OMGUS!!!) but it's not as scummy as I feared at first.  Yoshi did feel like he was trying to whip up some paranoia and keep a SnowFire train running on semi-flimsy grounds with Laggy as a convenient backup, but I can buy being worried by my dismissal of Rat's point if you think Rat is in the right on this.  Actually more worried by Alice of the two who were training on me now, since he's combined lurking + content I don't find really plausible, but I have trouble really getting a read here since we already know lurking doesn't say much about Alice's towniness.

I'm still not really comfortable with Carthrat, so I'm sticking with my vote for now.  While I'm not feeling towny-MC as strongly as before, now that I look at Carth's posts again...  MC is actually almost the only player he's talked about.  A little bit on Laggy vs. Alice and that extra role speculation on Noyn is unhelpful (which I agree with) but otherwise Carth has avoided dropping opinions on anyone else, even to say "And I have no idea about others."  Could be RL-distraction, I guess.  But still getting a bad vibe here.

Mod-ninja.  And now Laggy is zapped as well?  Yeesh.

[metroid composite]

Light post, but I have a few questions, so...

not to mention that quickhammers have occured here in the past

On Day 1?

there almost certainly are Scum on the wagon

Alice: What makes you think there are scum on the L-4 jokevote wagon?

I ask, because being on an early wagon tends to draw scrutiny (of the three people on the wagon, only Taitoro has not had much of a push).  And scum generally don't want attention.  I mean, yes: there could be scum on the wagon, but "almost certainly are scum on the wagon"?  Where do you get this information?

Laggy's behaviour: first he votes me over lurking, while complaining about the Rat train, then he backpedals stating that "oh hey maybe voting Rat to L-2 might be a good idea after all for we get useful information this way!"

Alice: Wait what do you mean voting rat to L-2?

At the time Laggy voted for rat, he was the ONLY person on rat.  Are you talking about an earlier Laggy post?

--------------------------------------------


On a different theme, people who know Carthrat's playstyle: is tunneling on one player normal for him?  So far he's never moved his vote, and only provided serious opinions on two people (myself and Laggy) including writing his first serious case upon only skimming my posts.

If it's not normal for him, I'd actually like to build a case on it.

NINJA'D Snowfire thinks the same thing.
Xanth NINJA'D Yeah, not getting the "Makkotah misrepresenting a post as a scum gambit"--it's not drawing any votes.  On the other hand Okay Zenny, I know you don't like to move your joke vote early, but we're into the last 24 hours now.

[Noyn]

Bah....sorry got busy with work and stuff the last two days. >_<
Gotta work tomorrow as well, after that I have the rest of the week off thought.
Really sorry about this.

Will take my time reading everything I missed to catch up and after that post again.

[Excal]

Alright!  Cyril has been replaced by Glen.

Given how things have worked, is there anyone else just recently kicked in the nuts by life that would like to speak up now so that I can deal with it?

[Cotigo]

Just got back home.  Blah some reading to do.  Will certainly have a vote placed later this evening.  Leaning towards Carth I think?  Maybe Alice.  Neither of their arguments seem to make that much sense to me but I've only skimmed things at this point, so this is subject to change on a more thorough reading.  Still don't see what's all that wrong with going LAL early day 1 to pressure people into talking.

Also sidenote: lol "you are making it hard for me to believe you were Jack Daniels in the last game."  I spent that entire game flailing around investigations wise.  I may have roleplayed OK and got lucky on being cleared town but playing mafia wise I still don't see how my play there didn't suck. 

[Cotigo]

Carthrat:  Whole argument against LaL day 1 is "IT IS NOT A LEGIT TACTIC" but quite frankly given Alice's history you saying that isn't that convincing, at least regarding him.  And, exactly what do you propose to do at a point where there's 2 pages and only one of it has anything other than jokevotes?  If nothing it puts pressure on people to start talking ASAP.

Second post:  Uhhh what.  There's a huge difference between "Alice gets away with lurking scum or town, vote" and "MC always posts in that style not enough to vote".  You conflating the two doesn't sit well at all with me.  Then there's more "LaL is bad because I say so"  and "MC's reporting is bad because it lacks strong opinions." 

Third post:  Kind of redeems himself by pointing out that MC's reasoning for having a vote on Xanth is silly.  However he says that this is the issue with MC's posts, which I guess explains the "strong opinions" bit in the last post.  Still disagree with everything else he's said.

Yoshi: "It takes actual content to move a vote" made me cringe until his next post. After he clarified what you meant.... well, yes, except Laggy moved his vote off Alice after a mod post, and again after a post I... would certainly call bad, but not contentless.  Mind you that Kilga also prodded Laggy about why he didn't change his vote.  Yeah, not good enough for me, but certainly not as telling about you as I thought at first glance.  Disagree with his take on Laggy, but I have nothing else to add

Alice:   Maybe you weren't there for long, but I certainly recall seeing you and going "oh look, there he is and without a Mafia post."  Though unless you have the chat logs from Monday (I know even if you're not around you're still signed into IRC) to prove me wrong, it's your word against mine.  Onto other topics... exactly WHY must there be scum on the early rat train?  Aside from that I basically disagree with everyone on your suspects list (Laggy I feel like I've been over, MC because the reporting charge is kind of stupid, and Snowfire because you think the reporting charge isn't stupid).  Not enough to make me vote you over Carthrat, but this will certainly be in the back of my mind.

MC:  Playstyle discussion is not bad.  I'm basically still new to this, Noyn certainly is to this group, I'm sure more people are, etc. etc.  Also, going after Xanth for verbosity is the pot calling the kettle black, come to think of it.  What I don't understand is how you don't understand him theorizing about the overall game context.  And moving your vote to pressure someone with 24 hours left?  These... feel mostly like new-to-the-game mistakes at kneejerk, but I'm not sure how much of that is Cthulhu Mafia's day 1 making me paranoid.

Roukanken:  Few seemed to think it was odd that people flipped about Alex's 3rd vote on whoever-it-was-I'm-not-going-to-check last game, but yes fair point.  It was a stupid mistake in hindsight (even with 4 scum, gambiting so hard that you sacrifice the other 3 scum is too lolwhat.)  Aside from that, still don't see why D1 LaL for pressure is bad, etc., saying "D1 LaL for pressure is bad because D1 LaL is bad" doesn't mean much to me coming from non-confirmed-town people playing in this game.  Even Xanth's argument about why it's bad is "because it's a bad mechanic" and a note about how Alice townlurked once, without even addressing why it's a bad move for putting pressure on people to talk.

----

Okay folks, at this point I've only read up to Rou's post, I see that Xanth's finished his analysis and there's more MC posts and a lot of other stuff, but I'm going to go meet some friends for dinner.  Right now I see nothing that makes me wary of tossing out a vote for Carthrat. 

##UNVOTE: Ciato
##VOTE: Carthrat

[metroid composite]

More seriously, re your comment - and I don't pretend to have any special SCUM RAT INSIGHT here - Rat is a good player, he's not likely to make any howler of a mistake if he did draw scum.  Henchman Mafia I was on Rat's case for exactly "Rat is making sense but BAD SENSE" - "Rat is posting content which is consistent but I don't like it, and there's not much of it."  And he actually was scum that game!  (Then again maybe I was just lucky with a shot in the dark.  Who knows.)

I'm still not really comfortable with Carthrat, so I'm sticking with my vote for now.  While I'm not feeling towny-MC as strongly as before, now that I look at Carth's posts again...  MC is actually almost the only player he's talked about.  A little bit on Laggy vs. Alice and that extra role speculation on Noyn is unhelpful (which I agree with) but otherwise Carth has avoided dropping opinions on anyone else, even to say "And I have no idea about others."  Could be RL-distraction, I guess.  But still getting a bad vibe here.

Okay, well, nobody's answered me on my "does Carthrat usually tunnel?" but I'll take SnowFire's post as rat acting unusually.

The Carthrat Case

So...Rat's tunneling on me, putting on pressure right from the start, and never changing his vote (and the only other player he's put serious consideration on is "almost switching votes to Laggy").  What could this mean?  Well...traditionally it's a cop-tell.  And...there was a night 0, so hypothetically he could have an investigation.  I actually stopped at one point to check if I'm a miller; Partial Claim: I am not a Miller (outside of bastard mods not telling me stuff).

Scum trying to drop a cop-tell and get people to follow them, though?  Sure, I can see it.

The 3-person SnowFire Train

Okay, so Carthrat makes a post with weak content (which he admits to having only skimmed my posts in making).  It sits a while with nobody calling him on it.

4:27pm: SnowFire calls him on it
7:37pm: Ciato votes SnowFire for attacking Laggy and not doing much afterwards
2:51am: Alice votes SnowFire (specifically for calling rat out)
6:01am: Yoshiken says he doesn't like SnowFire promising content and not delivering overnight

I think there's a term for this (Chainsaw defence or something?) and obviously there's too many people on SnowFire for them all to be scum.  But...yeah, this train really came out of nowhere to me.

Carthrat's content

You know, I'll keep this minimal, because so far I seem to have failed pretty badly at judging people interacting with me (positively or negatively).  This stood out to me, though.

Yoshiken in particular did not look like he was really flailing to me, so I do not understand how she could put so much effort into talking about how uncomfortable he makes her

This is just based off a quick ctrl+F for "Yoshi", so appologies if I misrepresent anyone here, but...

People uncomfortable with Yoshi:
Laggy, mc, Ciato, Kilga, SnowFire, Xanth, Zenny.

People saying "why are you uncomfortable about Yoshi?":
Carthrat

Rat takes a rather odd opinion.

This fits well with the idea of rat=scum.  Maybe trying to make me look worse.  Maybe trying to protect a scumbuddy (Yoshi was on the SnowFire train AND Carthrat attacks Laggy for his attack on Yoshi, too).

##Unvote: Noyn (Still not happy about the zero content, but promise of content day 2).
##Vote: Carthrat

NINJA'D by Zenny.

[Kilgamayan]

My top two suspects getting hit with the replacement hammer? Lovely. My vote on Laggy was not for his lack of activity, though, so Glen's inheriting it. Enjoy.

Slight frown at Roukan's vote, given what went down on Day 1 of Meme Mafia. Lynch threshold panic isn't the towniest of actions, sure, but it's far from unprecedented as a townie action. Did you really not see anything more worth voting? Here's to hoping your proper read after waking up turns up something better.

Oh man MC what's going on here. I was almost set to switch back to her for the vote reasoning retcon (and I apologize, but I cannot make heads nor tails of your response to that accusation; specifically, why you say you felt you still "could not get a proper evaluation" on Xanth when that certainly looks like what you attempted to do with the second post), but then we have a switch to a lurker after all the LAL kerfuffle (which made me want to vote her even more), but now we're suggesting scum pairings with the Chainsaw Defense accusation? And some role speculation that leads to what looks like a pretty crazy role theory? (And as long as you're going down that road, you fail to account for the idea that Rat could be an Insane Cop.) This...everything here is too newbie play, and I just can't bring myself to vote for it. Not right now. Similar feelings to Xanth on this, I guess.

Zenny: To hopefully resolve your confusion, Day 1 LAL is not a good tactics because there are far too many...what did Shana call 'em..."potential mitigating factors". Maybe one has projects or essays or exams to do, or maybe one has to work extra hours, or maybe one loses power/their internet connection, or maybe one gets called to an important social gathering by family and/or friends, or a myriad of other things. These could all end up taking up a whole real-life day, possibly more, and they have zero bearing on one's alignment.

[Excal]

Day 1 Votes

Alice (0): Cyril, Quietrain, [i[Metroid[/i]
Carthrat (3): Snowfire, Taishyr, Taishyr, Metroid, Snowfire, Cyril, Snowfire, Zenny, Metroid
Glen (3): Ciato, Snowfire, Xanth, Yoshiken, Kilga
Taishyr (0): Taishyr, Quietrain, Metroid
Xanth (1): Xanth, Metroid, Taishyr
Ciato (0): Zenny, Quietrain
MC (1): Kilga, Carthrat, Alice
Kilga (0): Taishyr, Yoshiken
Zenny (1): Taishyr, Kilga, Roukanken
Yoshiken (1): Cyril, Ciato
Snowfire (1): Ciato, Alice
Noyn (0): Excal, Excal, Metroid
Excal (0): Snowfire

No Vote: Noyn, Glen

18 hours remain in Day 1.

With 13 alive it takes 7 to lynch.

[SnowFire]

Metroid, on one hand thanks for backing me, but I am slightly nervous that you don't take my posts as gospel.  I wasn't being sarcastic when I said I don't have "special scum rat insight."  I don't want to dive too deep into player meta but since it seems we're going there anyway...   To Rat's credit, I seem to recall from Discworld Mafia Rat correctly declared on the last day "I'm going to spend this entire day beating up on Taishyr" because, well, he thought Tai was scum.  Which he was.  And in Meme Mafia Carthrat was 100% correct about Kilga being scum.  Of course, these are both later day cases, which have more information to work with than Day 1 cases.

And more generally, player meta beyond "give newbies some room to make faux-pas" is very dangerous, as people can and will switch up play styles based on any number of factors.  The one player meta bit I did invoke is the reverse of what I said about newbies - that for strong players, the "burden of evidence" for a vote on them tends to be lower.  It's bad for town to, say, vote purely on technical merit of argument-framing, which means scum win for sure if they have the "good" mafia players.

My case on Rat is slightly more direct: Tunneling + low content is suspicious no matter who does it.

[SnowFire]

Slight clarification: by "posts" in "don't take my posts as gospel" I mean specifically "metroid drawing the conclusion that Rat must be acting unusually based on my comments."

[metroid composite]

My case on Rat is slightly more direct: Tunneling + low content is suspicious no matter who does it.

Well right: Tunneling is my main issue with rat.  I just didn't want to make these arguments if Rat's usual playstyle was tunneling (the same way I didn't vote Zenny when he said "I don't like moving my jokevote early." as I had been planning to vote Zenny with that post).

(And as long as you're going down that road, you fail to account for the idea that Rat could be an Insane Cop.)

Considered it.  It would have to be both insane cop, AND have zero hints about being insane in the role PM.  Oh, and one more thing I didn't go into: a skilled town cop probably wouldn't tunnel quite so much--even if they don't move their vote, they'd give opinions on more players.

[Cotigo]

Kilga:  Well, yes.  And with that in mind, had Laggy kept his vote on Alice after Excal's note on him, and... to a lesser degree, kept his vote on Carth after he posted, then I'd see what the big deal is.  At that junction of the game it wouldn't have been hard for anyone pressed for time to pop in and say "I've got a project, not devoting any brainpower to this right now but I am present" or "Guys I injured my back and am high on pain medicine" or "my house is full of bees wtf".  The lack of power/internet connection is a more valid point, but I don't think that changes my stance enough to change how I feel about Laggy/Glen.  

MC:  While initially I did write that I was pretty uncomfortable with Yoshi, after he clarified what he meant by "it takes content to change a vote", I merely only disagree with him and edited my statement on him to reflect that before posting.

Ninja'd.  Most games don't give insane cops hints that they're insane.  Cthulhu mafia was speshul.

[Glen Veil]

Alright, finally finished catching up with a thorough read.  Going to try and keep this short since I'm tired and about ready for bed.

I'm currently leaning negatively towards MC and Noyn, MC for a variety of reasons and Noyn pretty much for a complete and utter lack of content.  Noyn however can be put off because if they are hardcore scum lurking then it will become painfully obvious in later days.

On to MC:

States a dislike of Yoshi's posts, but stays on Xanth on an initial vote that strikes me as simply asking for clarification, and there are no posts from Xanth imbetween for her to change the reason to anything other then clarification.  Not understanding logic of sitting on a vote for someone you simply want clarification on when there is someone you actually find suspicious.

The staying on Xanth up through page 4 has pretty much already been covered, so I'll just leave that alone now.

Page 5, expresses discontent over the content of Xanth's post here when before her reasonings were first for clarification then more of a lack of content pressure vote, then proceeds to make a pretty pointless lurker prod vote.

This post, firstly want to point out that only two people have voted for Snow, I wouldn't call that a three person train.  Not seeing the whole uncomfortableness with Yoshi fiasco either, since people tend to view things in different ways.  Yoshi is not actually voting for Snowfire, and Ciato has since moved her vote elsewhere.

All of this has just been ugh to me, and even though there is a good chance of it just being newbie mistakes it stands out the most to me right now so:

##Vote: MC

I do plan to take a closer look at Alice, Kil, and Rou and slightly less so with Xanth and Yoshi tomorrow, but for now I'm about to fall asleep.  Everyone else so far hasn't really left any bad impressions on me currently sow ill probably be left until day two to look closer at.

[Carthrat]

If we can acknowledge that tunneling is legitimate, which I think was just done... I'm sorry, but I don't view offering random opinions that are surely subject to change as particularly helpful. You can presume that if I don't talk about someone I'm undecided. I prefer to talk about what's important rather than just anything that most of the game won't read anyway. IMPACT!

I really dislike the way MC has addressed some of my posts and am compelled to stick with him as a result, naysayers be damned. My point on Yoshi was not so much 'you cannot possibly have anything strange to think about him' and much more a query of why, in fact, you could afford to drop so much wordage about him (and others!) and yet stick with a tepid Xanth case, then a Noyn case. Yet this vital segment of my post was omitted. I resent my early-day skimming being represented as a bad thing, too, when I did return later to clarify and reaffirm my position.

I am not really impressed by your voteswitch to me either, not only for the obvious but because you were premediating it based on playstyle meta, as well as some fairly simplistic logic regarding fast pairings/defenses earlier which just seems ridiculous to being talking about owing to scum rarely, if ever, blatantly stepping up to bat for one another.

There aren't many other people I'm willing to consider voting for. I've considered Snow but like his recent directness and feel of all the people attacking me he's had better rationale. Zenthor conversly lacks anything I can recognize as a case, I'm not sure how early LaL stuff really reflects on me badly, and the way he just dismisses my thoughts on MC grates... not sure my irritation is talking more than my reason, though. On the shoulders of Laggy's play I would vote Glen. Actually I'm not especially happy with Glen's last post. It's hard to see what his actual case on MC is, he just seems to have kinda listed her actions...

Ah heck

##Unvote, ##Vote: Glen Veil Yeah, can't see the case he made, and Laggy's earlier actions were bizzare.