DL Mafia GAME OVER Scum Win

[Taishyr]

Okay, took something-hour break from Mafia, back on wagon, let's go dig up why I had that good read on Yoshiken.

Basically it boils down to him pulling stuff up that I honestly wouldn't expect scum to bother explaining/justifying/pull up. I overstated while doing my Xanth case and working mentally through that, but yeah, definitely still have a good read on him. The Ciato swap-factcheck, the pointout that my language tends towards the more casual (he calls it subtle, whatever works), a decent defense of himself that, while hardly towny, doesn't verge into scummy either, and... this post in general, here which I think you're not giving due credit re: Yoshiken's Zenthor justificiation. Frankly this seems like the best callout of Zenthor yet (the two links up top, specifically), and while I disagree on Zenthor's scumminess after my reread, I can understand placing a vote when weighing these two posts and looking at them. So yeah, while Yoshiken's not clear he's not bad to me. Those two posts did a lot to give Yoshiken noted opinions and analysis in-game, and he fairly weights them below given the viewpoints he professes, sooooooo... yeah! I can understand a dislike of Zenthor's pure defense posts (though at this point Rou/Zenny is an argument and any back and forth between them I'd flag as that and not defense - at that point, it was a good callout, IMO.)

...and it occurs to me that everyone will be having fun jumping on me tomorrow if Xanth really does flip town. That'll be a joy and a half.

re: Kilga's paranoia that this was scum/scum or town!Xanth/scum!me, yeah, all I've got is my arguments and my tasty things to give out at night to try and support me. Timing-wise, I've just been active, especially since when I'm in the middle of an argument I tend to get frentic about checking in about it - it's why the very quick reply turnaround often enough. I've had to force myself away from the laptop to avoid that until last night. ...though I guess I should take it as a compliment that scum!me and town!me are virtually indistinguishable normally, I guess? Whatever, I'll do the best I can for town for as long as I can. I think there was another point I wanted/needed to address but I'm missing it, apologies, point it out to me if you want a reply. I'll be out for a bit, will be back by deadline.

One final question, and again, want SnowFire/Kilga/MC/Zenthor primarily to respond though anyone can, I guess. Should I just full roleclaim now since I already claimed the ability? I avoided the name claim, and there's a pointed reason for that. The reason is I wanted to hit something when I saw the role. But it's hardly as if it needs to be avoided for game reasons (and for reference, scum have fake ID's/covers so it's not like this could clear me anyway, but). I suppose what I'm saying is, does anyone think it's relevant or should I just sit on it? (The ability claim is here, targeted QRou N0, Noyn N1 (and was confused for whatever that's worth), for reference.)

I realize this might be pointless to ask, but I feel it should be asked at a minimum. I don't particularly care and would sit on it given the choice, but as a partial roleclaim is out the rest of town has the right to request the remainder.

[Kilgamayan]

The Ciato swap-factcheck

I avoided commenting on this in the past for reasons that I can't even remember now, but since I don't recall it ever getting mentioned, I believe Ciato's statement was wrangled out of context. Let's bring it up again, along with the paragraph in which it appears.

I don't terribly like Yoshi's attack on Snowfire and it makes me somewhat leery of the Snowfire train building. I find the attacking MC over the reporting to be inane -- I think a lot of players do this (Cranbud, Mage) just as a force of habit and I don't think MC's any different. I basically disagree with everything Yoshi says and I think he is consistently trying to stick charges on others.

I believe it is not at all hard to make the connection that Ciato meant "I basically disagree with everything Yoshi says in the context of Snowfire", given how she led the paragraph off, as well as her use of "says" instead of "has said" (which would more suggest the overarching disagreement that Yoshi seemed to think it was). This would not conflict with her earlier comments on Yoshi.

this post in general, here which I think you're not giving due credit re: Yoshiken's Zenthor justificiation. Frankly this seems like the best callout of Zenthor yet (the two links up top, specifically)

Please do tell me what I'm missing, then. I've already explained the issue I take with the first link (while you didn't bother explaining why it was good why do people keep doing this argh) and the second link could have been a pure defense post due to environmental circumstances; Zenny was preparing to go to work and needed to leave soon, so maybe he only felt comfortable addressing things immediately relevant that he'd have no problem address, rather than try to make a new case and rush it and potentially have that rushjob backfire on him.

Roleclaiming: Don't. If you're town, it will needlessly give scum extra information, and who knows what they have up their sleeve to counteract it. By keeping it on the down-low you force things so their only reliable way of stymieing you is to flat-out kill you, and no offense, but if scum decide to remove you from my suspect pool then more power to them as far as I'm concerned. >_>

[Taishyr]

First point: ...I did not draw that inference at all, honestly - it read as a blatant indictment of Yoshiken. I can see the inference now that you draw it (and it's likely what Ciato meant) but syntactically I didn't see it there. (Checking the post, I didn't see it because it doesn't really exist - the line continues, "I basically disagree with everything Yoshi says and I think he is consistently trying to stick charges on others." which implies Yoshi's cases on others - everyone else - are what Ciato disagrees with, not just SnowFire. So yeah, not buying that, think Yoshiken was right in pulling the flip up.)

I missed your issue with the first link referenced by Yoshiken (and I'm not sure where it is, but okay, this is probably toroism acting up)! Frankly yeah, that first post does read in many regards as a waffling dismissal on many fronts and to take it as such I don't see as problematic (nor do I see an issue with a callout on that so much, but). This being said I think  Regarding the second post, sure, but at the same time in that case letting it sit a bit longer until more time could be devoted to it. It's still somewhat problematic as a result, in theory (and again I don't see Zenny as scummy, but at least the case has more support than -anything Alice has done- even when he was active, frankly)

...This being said, going back to your actual point and then the post, yeah, that's a bad overgeneralization on Zenthor by Yoshiken, looking things over again. Mmmf. Brings the value of the posts down for sure - I was willing to give it more of a pass, but critical examination doesn't give that, yeah.

Though yeah, scum know I have a power role of some quantity at this point, so let's see if they want to risk leaving me alive I guess. My main balk is that I don't quite know -what- scum could have that'd make my role info useful/not useful to them (remember, mass roleclaim cannot win us the game) so.

[Taishyr]

... I'm too tired to be posting here, I'm not sure the third paragraph makes much sense. Basically yeah, I'm seeing your point now and yeah it affects the Yoshi read, though it's... on a second thought while it is important because it is who he voted on and it's a bad overgeneralization, I'm still not seeing most the rest of the post as bad. So yeah, still not good re: Yoshi, but mrgh, I don't see the full thing just yet. Would probably still vote Rat over Yoshi, but I'd like to get the Alice flip and confirm my suspicion that he's scum before I go any further right now, mainly just because I can't think straight all of a sudden.

[Kilgamayan]

You've inspired me to go back and read through that whole exachange, just to make sure we're understand it as best we can.

Here Ciato agrees with Yoshi that LAL is an easy way to be lazy, but only mentions him once more (as a neutral read). Notable that "LAL is an easy way to be lazy" is a general game theory opinion rather than an opinion on any specific player's actions within the game ("I think _____ is scum because _____")

Here is Yoshi's next post, with his Snowfire comments. It also contains negative-reading opinions on MC, Zenny and QR while his vote is still on Laggy. I think this might be where Ciato's "consistently trying to stick charges on others" line might be coming from, though sure, it's also possible she just flat made it up, I guess.

Basically, in going back over this I still think "I disagree with Yoshi on the Snowfire issue" was the proper way to read that post, and even if there was confusion regarding the disagreement I think Yoshi blew it out of proportion since she agreed with him on exactly one issue anyway. I do see why the "consistently trying to stick charges on others" line could be confusing, though, for as much as I think it came from Yoshi poking at several people in that one post.

In regards to the first post Yoshi linked, it is true that Zenny was pretty waffly in that post. What I do not like is Yoshi's emphasis on how "everything" is waffly, when there isn't a whole lot of stuff Zenny talks about in the post to waffle about, and they're waffles about specific points instead of players in general, which I feel is more important. In fact, the more I read it, the more I see it as waffling about reporting and then agreement that MC's vote for you (Tai) was odd in a line that reads pretty supportive for you (Tai), with a very definitely not-waffly statement regarding what he prefers to do with his early vote. So...yeah, suddenly not seeing the waffle charge as much as I did before. Would actually appreciate Zenny clearing some of this stuff up, if possible.

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Back to the roleclaim. Scum know you have a power role because scum and town alike know that everyone has a power role, so the only extra info scum have on you right now is that you have a night action. They don't know what it does, and they don't know if it's the only thing you can do (obviously please do not confirm or deny this second thing). What could they do with your role if they knew what it was? They could have a better idea about whether or not you're worth Roleblocking, or they could have a better shot at guessing what you'll do with it and Bus Drive your action elsewhere. Or whatever else that I can't think of right now since those two are the most obvious possibilities.

[Yoshiken]

grgh. Must not OMGUS... Must. Not. OMGUS. Have been getting such a Touhou vibe for a while, especially now that this is back in the Demotivator vs. Touhou position, but reaaallly prefer playing the logic game over feelings, so definitely not considering that today.
But seriously, Kilga? I return from missing at least 24 hours of content and state I'm doing a huge reread and you demand that I change vote ASAP? I'd rather, y'know, FINISH THE REREAD FIRST, thanks. I'm not gonna throw my vote at someone aimlessly, just to change it a little later when I'm around all day. (And I figured you guys would be able to figure that out and it didn't need explicitly stating. Apparently I was wrong. >_>)
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Zenny~ I know how much you love reading, so have a summary:
Firstly, we get this one, which is almost entirely defence against Rou's post and... overreaction is a terrible argument. Possibly honest, but terrible. Also kinda sorta WIFOM to assume only Town can overreact in that situation. The defence on the vote is fair enough, as much as I disagree on the playstyle choice. We then get a minor rolefish, it looks like - what with the +/- powers in effect, I'm really not liking that, since it reads as scum looking for hints on who to kill. Reading into that way too much? Probably! But that reads terribly to me. He then says in the next post that it's not actually important, but he still wants an answer. Brb, hitting head on wall.
The next post is much better, and... haaah. If he's right about Rat there, that is most definitely deserving of a vote, even this late in the day. (Exaggeration, but yeah, that is a huge + to Zenny and a huge - to Rat if the Rat reread brings the sudden switch on MC up as true.) Don't agree with the argument against Xanth, especially if he can see the point on cherry-picking meta, but the logic is fine. Post kinda sorta continues here but... what. The switch off Rat seems completely ridiculous, with "Still don't like Carth at all, but I don't have anything tangible on him." Uhh. What about the post before this? >__> Also gives way too much credit to Rat's defence post before that (which is pretty terrible, but more on that later!)
This post presents the case on Rou a little better, but... well, I don't think Zenny's defences were particularly good, which makes that defence mean fuck-all. Assuming Kilga is Town is fair enough, since most everyone has. As for MC, I still see overreactions like that as scum-leaning, but.. hm, can see how that could be newbie. Null tell for me, personally, but I can see where the logic comes from, at least.
This is the next one, with added laziness - seeing this as minorly scum-leaning, as was said regarding Rou's latest post, since less information/clarification is inherently anti-Town, since it gives us less to work on. (That said, I can understand finding this game headdesk-worthy.) I still don't see the argument of "I don't like moving my vote around" since it just reads as scum not leaving a trail - the alternative is if you're worried about contributing to a mislynch, in which case, wouldn't you remove a vote you're less sure on?
Aasdfdsgfdhgfj the pain. No, seriously. Read through Zenny's opinions that have been stated in this post. Earlier, he stated that he could definitely see the logic behind the 'cherry-picking meta,' yet here, he says Laggy 'pretty clearly addressed why' he did it. Now, look at the * paragraph (and the clarification of the meaning later in the post), and then at the paragraph on Xanth. He says that Tai has misrep'd Xanth majorly, then goes on to say that it's "odd that [Xanth is] accusing [Tai] of twisting words around to make them fit his case." Yep, I'm lost. I also like the placeholder of "I wouldn't be too terribly surprised if both flipped town or ITP, but I think it's more likely that one of them is scum" - seems like a nice way of looking unconvinced while having an excuse to vote one of them later on.
This one next. The line he quoted of Rou's reads as "Why is your post on Ciato if you're not mentioning her?" That doesn't really say either way whether the problem is where his vote is or whether or not it's still there. Pure semantics, and that's not good to be basing a case on. Next paragraph is the playstyle argument again, so not much to add here. Throws in another point against Rat, although, quickly checking Rat's post, I'm not sure what Zenny means; this is nothing to do with Zenny's post, but more that Rat's is vague as hell. That can wait 'til the next post, assuming I have time. Zenny's SnowFire analysis is basically "I agree with him a lot, but he doesn't say much. No read on him." Can't really agree with that, personally; I found a decent amount for Snow on a reread through. He then makes a decent Alice case, for all that it's mostly been said already, and says SnowFire looks better for it. He then goes on to potentially dismiss that case as not understanding Alice's playstyle.
Now we have the post-/ragequit post - this is mostly in response to Tai's questions, and confuses me a little. He says that Rat is the first one on MC, has a distinct case on Rou, a distinct case on Tai... and then says he's not sure if he's active lurking. If you can get that much in the way of strong opinions, I'd imagine that's not active lurking! Seems to have nothing good to say about Alice still - if it were anyone else, I'd be wondering why your vote is on Rou, honestly, for all that you've been pushing his case, but you've already stated your unwillingness to switch votes, so... sure, not a point. (Post after this is just clarification, not sure that really tells us much? Possibly slightly Town-leaning, but reaaaaally slightly.)
After this, we get a slight improvement in this post! Says Rat's content is original and points out that Rat's post isn't necessarily railroading. The rest of the post says nothing, and I'm somewhat amused at his quick defence of Rat here, whether intentional or not. Definitely doesn't read well to me. (The next two posts are confirming that he sees nothing new on XanthTai a post later, and then saying he's in favour of a longer night, so skipping those.)
His defence against Rou's lazy post just repeats his earlier defence, but that's all that's really needed here.
(As an aside, I noticed Rat's unvote on Zenny in here - seeing them both build cases on each other and then remove them later on for easy/worse cases is kinda funny! If by funny, I actually mean facepalm-worthy.)

tl;dr: Am I going to change vote? Not likely. Even if I see Rat as scum, that just convinces me on Zenny a bit more, and I'm already pretty much sold. The only reason I'll change vote now is to take out Alice if he shows up, as I've been writing these summaries with the idea that he'll be modkilled in mind and LaL is definitely valid here.

Aaaand 6 ninjas.
Okay, Tai's covered the first point - she said "consistently trying to stick charges", which most definitely implies everything to that point. As for the Zenny argument... the first post has, in order, "kind of a null tell," playstyle defence and... a decent enough point, which is then dismissed with "That said... meh. Still nothing that I'm really picking up on." As for the second one, I don't like clearing people on "Well, it could have been..." The post is weak and I'm going to press that - if he can clarify why, then fine! He hasn't!

...fucking hell. I never realised how much I could type when motivated to play Mafia. Sorry about this, guys. =/

[Taishyr]

Fair. And for what it's worth, -my role worked effectively- but I was not told that -my role worked as intended-. IOW, I wasn't roleblocked, but I may have been bussed or something similar (or it could have just failed to work on me). The flavor was vague, and it definitely wasn't my N0 flavor where everything worked fine - there was ambiguity in that I was definitely targeted, but the effects weren't elaborated on.

Note no one has claimed the second tasty thing thus far. Yeah, this pretty much implies Noyn got it, but... alternately scum grabbed it and don't feel inclined to claim as such. (Mainly keeping this in mind if zero/one scum flip today. My foreshadowing wasn't terribly adept, scum may have caught me claiming the tasty and thus chosen to give my item to someone on their side. Yes, this implicates QRou - they would have to know what I was giving out in order to know it was worthwhile to redirect, which could only happen N0. This is also incredibly theorycruft and I'm only bringing it up since I can't be -sure- my tasty went to Noyn. If two flip today... I'm not really sure but I think it means Rou doesn't work out as well, would have to think it over, I suck at theorycruft which is why I don't indulge in it unless I think it produces a valid point. Basically if we think my role got redirected Rou needs a massive lookover, as any claim of the tasty at this point from non-MC would be... pretty damn suspicious.)

NINJA Yoshiken: I'm not gonna hold my breath on a Alice modkill since Excal said he'd be out to end the day.

[Cotigo]

Would actually appreciate Zenny clearing some of this stuff up, if possible.

Sure.  Tell me if I'm misunderstanding what you wanted me to clarify; just woke up.

The post I made that Yoshi linked (that Jack built):  I wouldn't say I was waffling at all, least not on any players.  Reporting can be bad, yes, but longwinded people trying to get their thoughts organized can easily be accused of reporting when they're really not.  I felt MC fell into the latter, and that accusing her of reporting was dumb. Doesn't mean I didn't think the Tai vote wasn't odd.  

So, Yoshi's commentary.  Honestly I can kind of see why he'd say "everything" was neutral, leastwise as far as players went.  I threw out one point against MC and in the same post recognized a more valid point against her, and ended the post with "Not really picking up anything shit g2g."  The only really solid statement in that post is what I've been eying Rou about.

I thought Yoshi's points regarding me were valid (I was pretty neutral in that post and the other post WAS defensive), and the only thing really there to excuse myself within those posts are environmental conditions (having to leave for work, slacking off at work and seeing my boss come down the hall and having to ditch the computer kiosk), and that's not a good enough reason since there's no real way for town to verify whether that's true or not.  

Looking back at that post though I find it odd that Yoshi thought Alice's terribad (IMO) case on Snowfire was good, and think he may have twisted Snows words to paint them negatively, but I'll have to do a re-read to verify that.  Certainly going to take a look at Yoshi this morning.

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Kilga, a question for you:  Where'd all this talk about me waffling come from?  Yoshi complained that I took a neutral stance (something that seems really reasonable in light of how I ended that post), not that I was of 2 minds about MC.  

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Hey moddymoddmod!  Vote count (mostly for hours left in day) pls?

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Ninja!  Well, good thing I was going to do a re-read on Yoshiken so I can safely address this later.  >_<

[Tohsaka Rin]

I'm just a guest votecounter, not a co-mod, though...

Day 2 Votecount

MC (0): Roukanken
Roukanken (1): Taitoro, Zenthor
Carthrat (1): Metroid, Zenthor
Alice (4): Snowfire, Taitoro, Kilgamayan, Carthrat
Zenthor (2): Yoshiken, Carthrat, Roukanken
Taitoro (0): Kilgamayan, Xanth, Roukanken
Xanth (1): Taitoro

Noyn and Xanth have reached ghost status. They will be eliminated from the game at Day's end, but can neither vote nor be voted on.

I still believe that a consensus by six is required to lynch.

No more than 4 hours and 30 minutes should remain in the day, ending at 3:35 PM PST. It is now 11 AM PST.

FRIENDLY NOTE: To make it easier for votecounting without forcing me to read the entire topic immediately (I do so in my spare time, just to see what's up), please put your votes on a seperate line not included in a block of text. Thanks to Yoshi for pointing out Rou had actually switched votes - I did read it later but didn't connect that I missed counting it. :V

[Kilgamayan]

Zenny: Waffling talk most likely came from Tai using "waffling dismissal" and my mind gelling that together with "neutral" in my head to mean the same thing. Apologies to all parties involved for letting that happen. There definitely is a lot of neutrality in that post, though I think there is at least an obvious stance regarding MC's pursuit of Tai at the time, even if the conclusion is "meh".

Yoshi: Maybe this is just me personally, but if I'm returning from a long absence the first thing I'm doing is checking the status of my vote to see if it's still valid or not. My vote is the most powerful thing I have and what people are going to judge me on more than any other individual thing so I'm going to be giving it top priority. I guess you feel differently? Playstyle difference, I suppose. Still think my way is better, though.

Regarding Ciato's use of "consistently", maybe yes she did mean more than your latest post. How does her thinking you'd been trying to stick charges on others contradict her agreeing with you about Early LAL being lazy?

Second Zenny post I'll let Zenny address, since I have no way of knowing if he was actually going to work at that point or not.

And what, pray tell, are Touhou vibes? What differentiated Touhou from, say, Wily or Hazel or the Axems? (And what constitutes "a while"? I notice this sentiment hadn't been expressed before I started pressing you - in fact, you appeared to really like me in your +/- list - and that you've been focusing on other players in your re-read instead of me as far as I can tell.)

[metroid composite]

Kilga's/Tai's read on Yoshiken vote: the problem I have with counting those two links to Yoshi posts as solid justification against Zenthor is that it cherrypicks two posts.  I imagine if I searched for it, I could find a "responding to questions/pressure" post and a "these people give me no strong feelings" post from most people in this game.

But seriously, Kilga? I return from missing at least 24 hours of content and state I'm doing a huge reread and you demand that I change vote ASAP? I'd rather, y'know, FINISH THE REREAD FIRST, thanks.

Kilga's been doing the "why haven't you changed your vote yet?" line all game.  Did it to Laggy (which led to the Laggy unvote that people didn't like) did it to me (in one case where I had meant to change my vote, in one case where I was not yet comfortable jumping off of Xanth).  And...y'know what?  I've done it too.  I did it to Zenny when I realized he hadn't changed his joke vote.  *shrug* fair tactic, though it can throw the target off-balance, yes.


Someone asked me if Carthrat/Alice had been active lurking D1 so...

Alice, no, I feel like Alice completely misinterprets things (against, say, SnowFire and Laggy), but they were new misinterpretations.

Carthrat, no: first person to start the "mc is reportery" train.  First person to complain that my Xanth vote was rushed and not backed by analysis.  Admits initial accusation was only based on a skim and didn't have much content (which helped support SnowFire).  I think he may also be the first person to accuse Laggy of promising to go over other cases before Laggy's sudden OMGUS.  His last two posts D1 actually present opinions on more people than I initially realized (Snow, Zenny).

My issues with Alice were more noise-filled posting style and being wrong about how he read things.  My issues with Carthrat were more avoiding having opinions on anyone besides me.


NINJAs make me still not done my reread (part way through the Yoshi post I quoted on Kilga) but IRL calls for a bit.

[Kilgamayan]

Oh, yeah, since MC quoted it and that reminded me, at no point did I demand a vote change from Yoshi, much less "ASAP". I said I didn't like it and that I didn't like that he wasn't addressing it, and then he cut me by addressing it. Nothing the the effect of "Yoshi change your vote immediately" that I can remember unless you want to interpret unhappiness with a vote that way, and that's a pretty large spin imo.

[Cotigo]

We then get a minor rolefish, it looks like - what with the +/- powers in effect, I'm really not liking that, since it reads as scum looking for hints on who to kill. Reading into that way too much? Probably! But that reads terribly to me. He then says in the next post that it's not actually important, but he still wants an answer. Brb, hitting head on wall.

A... kind of fair point, so an explanation.  I hadn't yet read through the Day 2 posts by that point, and the intro post about powers that de/buff roles had slipped my mind.  My role changed over the night, and Kilga opened his first insomnia post with "In an amusing (to me) twist of fate, I have the ability to speak at night."  Read to me as if if this could be a role imposed on him by another player, ala my role change.  Then I read about Snow/Xanth getting powered up, realized what was going on, and suddenly Kilga no longer needed to answer my question.  Whether or not insomnia was his "neutral" state it certainly was intrinsic to him.  

That said, I don't think it's a terrible rolefish to go "well are you an insomniac just for tonight or is this every night?"  We KNOW he's an insomniac, and if he's an intrinsic insomniac I'm more inclined to think that he's town (though admittedly that is bad scumhunting and I must ignore that voice in the back of my head), whereas someone who got insomnia from someone else has no such benefit.

Post kinda sorta continues here but... what. The switch off Rat seems completely ridiculous, with "Still don't like Carth at all, but I don't have anything tangible on him." Uhh. What about the post before this? >__> Also gives way too much credit to Rat's defence post before that (which is pretty terrible, but more on that later!)

This post presents the case on Rou a little better, but... well, I don't think Zenny's defences were particularly good, which makes that defence mean fuck-all.

Please, you can read better than that.  Rat explained the switch off MC to my satisfaction (whether it's to your satisfaction or not is irrelevant to my thoughts at the time, and Rou...

You know what, fuck it, I've elaborated on this point enough and this post is going to be long.  If you REALLY want me to explain it to you as slowly as possible I will but... Christ.

Also not going to get into trite early vote maneuvering bickering.
 

Aasdfdsgfdhgfj the pain. No, seriously. Read through Zenny's opinions that have been stated in this post. Earlier, he stated that he could definitely see the logic behind the 'cherry-picking meta,' yet here, he says Laggy 'pretty clearly addressed why' he did it. Now, look at the * paragraph (and the clarification of the meaning later in the post), and then at the paragraph on Xanth. He says that Tai has misrep'd Xanth majorly, then goes on to say that it's "odd that [Xanth is] accusing [Tai] of twisting words around to make them fit his case."

Eh?  In that post I said I don't know why TAI said XANTH was Cherry Picking Meta and wasn't sure what he meant by it.  I also said I didn't like either's misrepresentation of either party, and didn't think much of Xanth's case on Laggy.  Also, if you're going to quote me, quote the whole fucking sentence.  

"Do I find it incredibly odd that [Xanth is] accusing [Tai] of twisting words around to make them fit his case while [Xanth] accuse[s Tai] of only not placing his vote on you because nobody else had?"

Meaning's different with the Whole Fucking Sentence (TM).

Pure semantics, and that's not good to be basing a case on.

Pure semantics it is not.  Huge difference between "why u vote ciato" and "why u no move vote".  One's accusing me of voting for someone while never addressing them, the other's a pure difference in playstyle.

He then goes on to potentially dismiss that case as not understanding Alice's playstyle.

You know, it's getting harder for me to tell if you're intentionally misrepping me or I'm just writing in heiroglyphics or some shit.  I didn't dismiss Snow's case as not understanding Alice's playstyle, you cunt.  MC (I think it was MC?) said earlier that she didn't understand why Rat couldn't "process a case on Alice."  I excused THAT because of RAT's potential familiarity with Alice.  

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Nothing else to respond to in the post.  Still want that vote count for time.  Going to try and re-read Yoshi now since I've really only addressed this latest post.  


Ninja ninja ninja ninja fuck it I'll address later.

[Alice]

Blargh, extremely spotty internet + RL business. Blah blah excuses, this should be the last of it, and if it isn't, then I'm giving Zenny full permission to lynch me IRL postgame Anyway.

* Votes me off what's either a [huge misunderstanding / intentionally critical misreading] because I can agree with part of Rat's statement and still vote him?  If somebody posted "Rainbows are pretty" I don't need to say "NO THEY'RE NOT" to vote them.  Post has a fairly excitable tone as well (I'm "disregarding everything Rat says").

Um, no, you can't? If you agree with more-or-less everything he said (and again - where was the disagreement in that post?), then your vote was just as good as a vote made for no reason at all, only more perplexing.

I am absolutely baffled as to why m_c felt the need to roleclaim this early. Snow/etc I can understand, given the recent events in Cthulhu Mafia, but there was really no need for her to roleclaim. Since it wasn't answered the last time, has she played here before? I've been working off the assumption that she was a mafia regular at one time, and not working off that assumption is making me see some (but not all!) of her posts in a different light...problem is, I'm not sure which of the two assumptions is correct.
                                                                                    
I guess the reasoning behind this assumption is the fact that she's an administrator, and it seems like most of the mods/admins on this site have at least played in a couple mafia games and yeah.

Anyway, I still don't understand Tai's sudden switch to Yoshiken. The main issue is, as with many of these sorts of things, the timing. Yes, the deadlines are soft, but they depend on activity, and thus reasonably one could expect about another 8-12 hours maximum under ideal conditions, realistically closer to An hour. Even had you managed to get a substantial push onto Yoshi, there's still the fact that he might not have showed up at that time to defend himself and/or roleclaim. Yet it all seems too brazen to be even a halfway-reasonable Scumplay, really. Not to mention the chances of getting such a push at deadline being extremely tiny...

Now the thing that I don't understand about SnowFire's posts today is that he at one point claims that m_c's claim was partly beneficial as it let Town know the setup better, but at the same time it also let Scum know the setup better. Sometimes having a setup broken open favours Town (see Cthulhu Mafia), sometimes it favours Scum (see Memes Mafia). That being said, at best it's null, and it still seems like a bizarre statement to make. I'm going to chalk it up to Snow being Snow, though.

Anyway, that's me getting caught up to the bottom of Page 12. Up next: the last two pages, and then actual opinions! (most of which are on Xantoro). Holy crap Taishyr do you ever use far too many words to say far too little sometimes.

[Excal]

Alright, Alice lives.  That will not be enough to spare him on Day 3, but I will be riding his ass harder on Day 3, so it should all balance out.

As Sasarai said, there are nine people left so far as management is concerned, so five votes is needed for the lynch.

[Yoshiken]

...right. Last votecount tells me that PST is, in fact, GMT-7, meaning it's around 10.30 here. I'm out early tomorrow, but will check back before I head off (or will stay up a little longer to be here for deadline, but that means I'll have a point where I go quiet between now and the deadline.)

Zenny: I still see that Snow post as bad, honestly. It reads as just picking out parts to fit his argument, but what with it being early-D1, I don't give it too much credit.

Yoshi: Maybe this is just me personally, but if I'm returning from a long absence the first thing I'm doing is checking the status of my vote to see if it's still valid or not. My vote is the most powerful thing I have and what people are going to judge me on more than any other individual thing so I'm going to be giving it top priority. I guess you feel differently? Playstyle difference, I suppose. Still think my way is better, though.

Regarding Ciato's use of "consistently", maybe yes she did mean more than your latest post. How does her thinking you'd been trying to stick charges on others contradict her agreeing with you about Early LAL being lazy?
[...]
And what, pray tell, are Touhou vibes? What differentiated Touhou from, say, Wily or Hazel or the Axems? (And what constitutes "a while"? I notice this sentiment hadn't been expressed before I started pressing you - in fact, you appeared to really like me in your +/- list - and that you've been focusing on other players in your re-read instead of me as far as I can tell.)

Cut the 3rd para because irrelevant. For the first one, yeah, I guess. I don't want to switch vote to someone without certainty, only to have to change it again 10 minutes later because, oh, hey, they weren't so bad on a reread.
What with the 'consistently' applying to half the sentence, I took it to apply to the rest. As such, I read it as disagreeing with me on everything as well. I can see how it can read differently now that it's been pointed out, but that's how I read it at the time.
And, like I said, I really don't want to follow that route. It's been entirely the impression I've been getting from your posts (and yes, it's been notably different from Axems/Hazel, at least) and I've not mentioned it because I've had nothing specific I could even possibly call you out on. Like I said, you've read pretty pro-Town as me logically, which is why I'm gonna ignore it - definitely prefer the logical arguments over "He doesn't read well! I can't say why, but he doesn't!"

Triple ninja! Will address Zenny and Alice soon. Kilga: it was held as a point against me, and seemed a needlessly harsh position to hold. I probably took that much worse than it actually was, though. Was mostly annoyed about being pressed for not changing vote right after returning from IRL stuff.

[Kilgamayan]

In reading over a couple of the things I've said I notice a potential sticking point for confusion, so let me clear it up now.

The playstyle I mentioned in address one's vote after a long absence does not demand a vote change, merely an update on whether or not the vote is still valid. If it is, then all well and good. If it is not, then it should either be updated or changed, yes (or one can continue to hang on to shoddy reasoning but I'd have no problem calling that scummy).

If Yoshi would like to cry foul and claim that I wanted him to "update the game on his vote ASAP", well...sure, I have no problem admitting to that, and I don't think it's particularly scummy to ask such a thing.

Cut by Yoshi, will read in a moment.

[Kilgamayan]

Ah, okay then. I'm still not a huge fan, but the revised case did eventually come, so. (Need to actually read it properly when there aren't more distracting movies going on, which will hopefully be soon.)

[Tohsaka Rin]

Updating this with recent information: please mind that the votecount has not changed!

Day 2 Votecount

MC (0): Roukanken
Roukanken (1): Taitoro, Zenthor
Carthrat (1): Metroid, Zenthor
Alice (4): Snowfire, Taitoro, Kilgamayan, Carthrat
Zenthor (2): Yoshiken, Carthrat, Roukanken
Taitoro (0): Kilgamayan, Xanth, Roukanken
Xanth (1): Taitoro

Noyn and Xanth have reached ghost status. They will be eliminated from the game at Day's end, but can neither vote nor be voted on.

With nine left active, only five are required to lynch!
This means that Alice is at L-1, so please keep that in mind!

No more than 3 hours and 25 minutes should remain in the day, ending at 3:35:35 PM PST. It is now 12:10 AM PST.

[SnowFire]

Speaking of excuses.  One of my flatmates had a birthday party last night / this morning that involved a ton of people speaking in French and loud music 'till 5:00 AM.  Still trying to parse the latest WoTs.

Quick comment that I can post now, though, but Alice:
Now the thing that I don't understand about SnowFire's posts today is that he at one point claims that m_c's claim was partly beneficial as it let Town know the setup better

Can you be specific as to what I said that caused you to think this?  I just checked my own posts and don't see anything indicating that.

Um, no, you can't? If you agree with more-or-less everything he said (and again - where was the disagreement in that post?), then your vote was just as good as a vote made for no reason at all, only more perplexing.
Also.  Once more with feeling.  The Rat post.  Let's break it down.
Rat A: MC is reporting.  (SF: disagree.)
Rat B: It takes time for lurkers to really become lurkers.  (Everyone: Duh.)
Rat C: Therefore anti-early-LaL is the correct position to have.  (SF: Not really.  Especially if such votes, like mine & Laggy's, are phrased conditionally - i.e. Laggy was saying "If Alice never shows then my vote is serious.)

So, in my view, Rat was combining a weak charge (MC) and some game theory I disagreed with.  Yes, said game theory included one element I did agree with (point B), but I didn't like the conclusion.  And that was it for his contributions at the time.

We good?

Further post on Yoshi / other stuff to come later.

[Cotigo]

Yoshi re-read done as far as I'm concerned because I'm going fucking crosseyed.  Honestly, my opinion hasn't really changed much.  I don't like all the misrepping in that last post, but up until that the specific points he brings up (primarily on me, and Laggy in Day 1) are valid enough though I disagree with a lot of them.  That last post isn't looking good but I don't think I'll be switching my vote to him today.  Once more, if it's going to be anyone, it's going to be...

Hey look it's an Alice.  And... lolwhat.  Snowfire agreed with "more or less everything [Rat]'s said"?  He said he agreed with Rat saying it takes time to lurk and went "Meh" to everything else.  That... ... ...

Siiiiiiiiiiigh.  I'm going to take a break.  Alice looks just as bad as before in a kneejerk, but I'll come back in an hour and read over his summary and go back to Snowfire's posts and dump even more time into this game.  Rou looks worse but as far as I can tell but apparently nobody else thinks so.  May well switch my vote to Alice since I'm number 2 in votes and I don't like that at all (durr).

Ninja.  Irrelevant response because I'm off to shoot some dudes for a little bit. PST is GMT-8.  I know because I'm in Mountain, GMT-7.

[Alice]

Grate. So we're up to two modkills now. First off, an explanation to Kilga since he's apparently wanted one for ages: I'm not sure why/how you think the vote for m_c was made out of nowhere and/or it was "as if my SnowFire vote was some sort of delaying tactic". At the time of my post then, SnowFire had one vote (mine, to be precise), and there were four hours remaining in the day. Realistically the only people that could have gotten lynched at that point were major trains (and see above as to me wondering about Tai for him trying to form a last-minute Yoshi train somehow), i.e. Glen/Rat/m_c/Myself, and I wasn't going to vote for myself, thought the Rat case was dumb, and had Glen throw me for a loop, thus I favoured voting for m_c out of all of them.

Anyway! Xantoro! I... honestly was going to type up a post about this, but given the modkill, it seems best to wait for Xanth's alignment to flip and then re-analyze Taishyr's alignment in that light. For what it was worth, it seemed like a TvT spat, while uncharacteristic for Xanth I think he's even less likely to try voting for himself as Scum given that he plays very strongly to win in Mafia as a general rule. Meta, yes, I know, but it's analysis of an extremely uncharacteristic and bizarre move for him. Have no issues with his content, though a lot of it, as well as a lot of Tai's, seems like nothing more than irrelevant pedantry.

So that brings me to Tai! First off, Tai, thanks for the misrep, but um, no I did not misread Snow's post, as answered above to Kilga my vote for him was not "weak", it was moved due to the goddamn deadline being imminent and a high chance of me not being around again before the actual deadline hits, I thought I stated in that exact post that Glen seemed to me more like an idiot than Overt Scum and that is why I didn't vote him despite me yelling at him for making several stupid mistakes (stupid mistakes! not scummy mistakes), and quite honestly the whole thing seems written surprisingly awfully.

However, beyond this what I get on Taitoro is a strong sense of annoyance, but nothing indicating Scumminess. On the other hand, there's a lot of stuff there that Scum generally wouldn't classically do, such as the deadline Yoshi train, and Xanth does get remarkably iffy near the end - there's a bit of misrep on both sides, though admittedly it started out with Tai, at the same time it's a remarkably bad case and the vehemence with which both of them push their cases through to the point of one of them raegquitting seems a bit...ugh. I will need to think about it a bit more, but I have to say that I'm slightly uncomfortable voting Tai, at least prior to Xanth's flip.

Going to have to reread Yoshi - I did find it a bit bizarre that D1 I was one of the people that he considered that was very good and claimed to feel quite strongly about this, and there's a lot of his posts that just tend to fade into the background, but he seems to at least be posting somewhat interesting/relevant content for the most part, so yeah. Similarly going to have to go over Zenny. And m_c, for like the 15th time, no, I did not misinterpret SnowFire D1. Christ.

More in (yet) another post, still getting caught up.

- tags fixed by mod

[Alice]

And I fail at bbcode. Whee. Could one of the mods please fix that tag, thanks?

[Alice]

Multi-post-drifting whee!

Okay, so with that explained from SnowFire I suppose the main issue that I have is that I strongly disagree with point C, because such votes are meaningless: either the person will start contributing, in which case the votes get removed, or they hit modkill timer, in which case the votes become pointless anyway. This is why pressure/prod votes are dumb, and why anti-early-LAL is, imho, the proper position to have. But seeing as this settles down to a conflict of playstyles and nothing actually relevant to alignment, I think it's best to drop this now. However, I will say that my read of SnowFire has gotten somewhat better as of now.

[metroid composite]

* Votes me off what's either a [huge misunderstanding / intentionally critical misreading] because I can agree with part of Rat's statement and still vote him?  If somebody posted "Rainbows are pretty" I don't need to say "NO THEY'RE NOT" to vote them.  Post has a fairly excitable tone as well (I'm "disregarding everything Rat says").

Um, no, you can't? If you agree with more-or-less everything he said (and again - where was the disagreement in that post?), then your vote was just as good as a vote made for no reason at all, only more perplexing.

Umm...yes you can?

Let's say Rat said "The sky is blue.  mc is reportery.  I don't think we should be chasing lurkers this early."
And then Snow said "I don't think mc is reportery.  I support chasing lurkers now.  The sky being blue is self-evidently true, but meh."

Seriously, SnowFire's accusation was active lurking.  How is posting a self-evident-truism NOT active-lurking?  In fact, if anything it strongly supports an active lurking charge.  And outside of the self-evident-truism SnowFire disagreed with every stance Carthrat took.

Since it wasn't answered the last time, has she played here before?

It was answered last time you asked.  (And even last time it had been previously mentioned by both me and Laggy--two of your top targets).  I'm finding it harder and harder to imagine ways in which you've somehow seen none of the responses.

(Yes, I'm new to Mafia; this is an RPG website, not a Mafia website, so my being an Admin says little.)