DL Mafia GAME OVER Scum Win

[Taishyr]

* Taitoro returns, looks up, sees three Alice posts, is really bloody tempted to not read them just due to, really, three and a half hours until deadline approximately before he could be bothered to post. -_-; (I think I understand pretty well how busy you get, Alice, but... this is still really bloody annoying to have to deal with) But no, I'll look through, give me about fifteen minutes as I just got back home from the shop.

[Yoshiken]

Okay, Kilga clarification is fine by me. I'll keep that in mind for future reference, at least.

We KNOW he's an insomniac, and if he's an intrinsic insomniac I'm more inclined to think that he's town (though admittedly that is bad scumhunting and I must ignore that voice in the back of my head), whereas someone who got insomnia from someone else has no such benefit.

Arrrggh. Don't like that, but then, you don't seem to either. And the rest of that was explained decently enough.

Please, you can read better than that.  Rat explained the switch off MC to my satisfaction (whether it's to your satisfaction or not is irrelevant to my thoughts at the time

Sure, but that doesn't make me see it as any less scummy, and it looks like a really easy way for you to switch votes. Considering I was mildly suspicious of both you and Rat before my reread, and, while I've not reread Rat yet, the ones I have looked at have just pushed that a little further, I'm really not liking what looks like an easy jump.
 

Aasdfdsgfdhgfj the pain. No, seriously. Read through Zenny's opinions that have been stated in this post. Earlier, he stated that he could definitely see the logic behind the 'cherry-picking meta,' yet here, he says Laggy 'pretty clearly addressed why' he did it. Now, look at the * paragraph (and the clarification of the meaning later in the post), and then at the paragraph on Xanth. He says that Tai has misrep'd Xanth majorly, then goes on to say that it's "odd that [Xanth is] accusing [Tai] of twisting words around to make them fit his case."

Eh?  In that post I said I don't know why TAI said XANTH was Cherry Picking Meta and wasn't sure what he meant by it.  I also said I didn't like either's misrepresentation of either party, and didn't think much of Xanth's case on Laggy.  Also, if you're going to quote me, quote the whole fucking sentence.

But you said yourself that Xanth was accusing Laggy of cherry-picking meta (or misrep, as you've said it here), so it should be damn obvious what Tai meant. This also doesn't change the fact that you earlier said you understood the case on Laggy.
I'll acknowledge the quote one, must've rushed that one. Fuck. >.<

Pure semantics, and that's not good to be basing a case on.

Pure semantics it is not.  Huge difference between "why u vote ciato" and "why u no move vote".  One's accusing me of voting for someone while never addressing them, the other's a pure difference in playstyle.

And the quote you used, at least, could be read either way. I also don't remember seeing a counter-quote to show that he said otherwise, which could definitely sway my choice. (Would look, but argh headache from writing/reading WoTs. Probably deserved.)

You know, it's getting harder for me to tell if you're intentionally misrepping me or I'm just writing in heiroglyphics or some shit.  I didn't dismiss Snow's case as not understanding Alice's playstyle, you cunt.  MC (I think it was MC?) said earlier that she didn't understand why Rat couldn't "process a case on Alice."  I excused THAT because of RAT's potential familiarity with Alice.

...Right. Definitely didn't see that in the context, but okay, that's fair enough.

5 replies while typing up that and I haven't even read through Alice's post yet! Fun. >_> Not checking those now, gonna take a break to sort my head out a little. oh hi another ninja not now.

[Alice]

Hokay. Yoshi and SnowFire rereads now, and hopefully a vote. I'm just going to mentally filter out most of Tai and Xanth's posts right now because oh my god some of this is just ridiculous.

First, Yoshi:
Honestly, his posts seem pretty good to me. His D1 stuff is mostly stuff I agree with - that pressure votes are bad/dumb and shouldn't be removed even if content is produced if content is bad, summaries being a null read, his statements on Laggy, his statements on SnowFire, I all happen to agree with. D2 - opens the day with a Zenny vote, for purported Active Lurking - which seems a tad odd, really, I can't say that Zenthor really fits the "lurking" charge here, opinions are somewhat spotty but they're there and he seems to be playing very similarly to how he played in Cthulhu Mafia as Jack Daniels, so yeah. And... honestly, I agree with his D2 cases too! Including the one against SnowFire (again)!

I do admit I might be a bit biased since I agree with next-to-all of his opinions, but quite honestly, Yoshi reads as Town to me, and I'm not sure what the case on him is, really.

Up next, SnowFire!
I actually think I misread such a claim by you regarding opening up the setup being beneficial in this game - blame it on me being tired. Again, not being too against you for claiming that "something happened to you" at the beginning of D2 after Cthulhu Mafia. The rest of your posts read...oddly. Somewhat active lurky at times, and his D2 posting has been spotty and one of his very few recent major posts in the past 24-or-so hours of D2 was on Xantoro, but...eh. I'd be comfortable with voting him but I'm unconvinced that he's the best target for today. I'll need to go over Zenthor and Roukanken before I fully form an opinion on Snow, and guess what that means? MORE READING! Ugh, remind me to never get this sidetracked in a mafia game ever again, the catching-up process alone is beyond horrible.

m_c ninja: see my reply to Snow above, it comes down to playstyle now, namely that both lurking and active lurking need more than D1 for them to be defined. So while I will (gasp!) agree with you that Rat could be plausibly construed as Active Lurking for his posts so far, D1 is not the time to vote people for Lurking, Active *or* Inactive. But yeah. And yes, apologies for missing that, noted, and please note that the first bit of that post was typed up before reading most of D2, so it is highly plausible that I missed such an explanation (as for missing it D1 - no idea. Maybe I was just more out of it than I thought, rofl).

[Taishyr]

Hum dum.

Alice: Reply to this 1) See MC, her not having played before has been said a few different times (I got ninjad typing this) 2) Already explained. I was not reading you, Glen or Rat as scum at the time, and considered Yoshiken worse than all three. I am willing to try and lynch someone I consider scum over someone I don't consider scum, no matter eff all hours are left in the day. That did not factor in to my willingness to at least try. 3) Yes, sometimes I do. Tough, I'm English Major.

Sorry you don't like that D1 SnowFire post being called a misread, but if multiple different people are disagreeing on how to read it, it may be a misread of the post. :/ Yelling it louder doesn't change anything and from a lot of persepctives at this point it really seems like you missed where SnowFire was coming from. (I know I had some backing on the Laggy thing in part which is why the entire thing confused me and why I eventually just boiled it down to see if we could reach a consensus that it was differing readings. ...and then Xanth /quit. -_-)

Ninja ninja none of this changes this post

[Taishyr]

though having someone tell me "Tai, you're probably misreading, this is how we read Laggy (x, y, z), where do you differentiate?" would probably have spared most of day 2, in retrospect. sigh. instead I just got told I was cherrypicking the meta which it didn't (and from my reading, still doesn't) feel like I was doing, but whatevs.

[Yoshiken]

Scanned over the latest posts a few times, at least. Alice's posts are reasonable enough again, but oh god the lurking. I'm still damn tempted to vote him, but I'm still seeing Zenny and (pending reread) Rat as scum, so... yeah, if I've got what I see as active scumtells, I'll stick with them over LaL if there are enough. I should take another look through Rat's posts, on that note, but I'm gonna leave that for the Night Phase, kthx, since each summary has taken a minimum of 3 hours so far.
(Alice, I'm expecting at least, like, 20 posts from you tomorrow. Anything less and you're lynched.) (And that is a joke, yes, but you get the idea. It won't take much for me to vote you tomorrow, and it will take a damn good amount of content to change that.)
As it goes, not every point in Alice's posts are perfect, but they're pretty good on the whole (oh hi there possible bias).

I can... sort of see MC's point on Alice's SnowFire case? SnowFire explains it much clearer, and I can only say I didn't read it like that at the time.

[Cotigo]

But you said yourself that Xanth was accusing Laggy of cherry-picking meta (or misrep, as you've said it here), so it should be damn obvious what Tai meant.

Because knowing what Xanth means when he uses the term and specifically to where Xanth refers means I know what Tai means when he uses the term, and specifically to where he refers.  Wrong.  

And the quote you used, at least, could be read either way. I also don't remember seeing a counter-quote to show that he said otherwise, which could definitely sway my choice. (Would look, but argh headache from writing/reading WoTs. Probably deserved.)

And he was CRTL+Fing for Ciato.  Implying that he thought I had some reason to leave my vote on Ciato, not that I was wrong for not moving my vote, something he clearly could have read in the post he linked etc etc etc etc I'm repeating myself at this point.

Mm.  Less and less convinced that Yoshi's case on me is scummy... least not scummy enough to put him in my consideration over Rou/Alice.  A lot of the missed points could be due to reading by last post instead of through the topic.  

---

Waiting for Alice's other thoughts and vote to say much more regarding him. Nothing to do with the fact that I haven't yet reevaluated the end of Day 1 yet.  I suspect that by the time I get done re-analysing the exchange between him and Snow Alice's vote will be up.  If not, I'll bite my tongue 'til then.  

[Tohsaka Rin]

No changes here, move along.

Day 2 Votecount

MC (0): Roukanken
Roukanken (1): Taitoro, Zenthor
Carthrat (1): Metroid, Zenthor
Alice (4): Snowfire, Taitoro, Kilgamayan, Carthrat
Zenthor (2): Yoshiken, Carthrat, Roukanken
Taitoro (0): Kilgamayan, Xanth, Roukanken
Xanth (1): Taitoro

Noyn and Xanth have reached ghost status. They will be eliminated from the game at Day's end, but can neither vote nor be voted on.

With nine left active, only five are required to lynch!
This means that Alice is at L-1, so please keep that in mind!

No more than 1 hour and 27 minutes should remain in the day, ending at 3:35:35 PM PST. It is now 02:08 PM PST.

[Yoshiken]

But you said yourself that Xanth was accusing Laggy of cherry-picking meta (or misrep, as you've said it here), so it should be damn obvious what Tai meant.

Because knowing what Xanth means when he uses the term and specifically to where Xanth refers means I know what Tai means when he uses the term, and specifically to where he refers.  Wrong.

I'm not talking about Xanth's use of cherry-picking. You claimed that Xanth misrepped Laggy by only using specific parts of his post. Tai claimed the exact same thing. You also said you don't see what Tai meant by Xanth cherry-picking. Am I missing something here?

And the quote you used, at least, could be read either way. I also don't remember seeing a counter-quote to show that he said otherwise, which could definitely sway my choice. (Would look, but argh headache from writing/reading WoTs. Probably deserved.)

And he was CRTL+Fing for Ciato.  Implying that he thought I had some reason to leave my vote on Ciato, not that I was wrong for not moving my vote, something he clearly could have read in the post he linked etc etc etc etc I'm repeating myself at this point.

Ahh, that's a fair point. Seeing you in a somewhat better light now, which... argh. Kinda leaves me pondering over my rereads again, and considering a Rat lynch despite the circumstances. At the very least:
##Unvote: Zenthor
(Oh man I'm gonna get attacked for this aren't I? Honestly, I'd rather not potentially contribute to a mislynch. Fuck it, I'll put my vote where my words are. I'm with Tai on pushing someone I think is more likely to be scum with little info over someone I'm not sure on.)
##Vote: Carthrat

argh this game is a headache.

[metroid composite]

Few notes before I head out:

Gut reaction to Alice's newer posts is that the writing style makes me happier (clearer and more concise compared to the D1 writing style).

Not really sure how I feel about his content--at very least I disagree with this particular claim:

m_c ninja: see my reply to Snow above, it comes down to playstyle now, namely that both lurking and active lurking need more than D1 for them to be defined. So while I will (gasp!) agree with you that Rat could be plausibly construed as Active Lurking for his posts so far, D1 is not the time to vote people for Lurking, Active *or* Inactive. But yeah.

That you shouldn't lynch Active Lurking day 1.  I disagree because the scum that leave a big paper-trail can be caught later in the game; the people who avoid taking any opinions can't be caught in a contradiction; hence town play should encourage people to provide opinions.  Hey...wait...hold on a minute, Alice's post from day 1...

- The m_c reporting charge is weak? How so? A good amount of her posts feature a bunch of statements about what occured in the game and when, with zero opinion and analysis of them. This type of posting is worthless at doing anything beyond giving the illusion that one is contributing to discussion, i.e. it is classic tell-tale Active Lurking.

You just...contradicted yourself.

SnowFire's D1 vote on Rat is scummy because you shouldn't vote for active lurkers D1.
Rat's D1 vote on me is cool because I was "active lurking".


Umm...yeah, pretty happy with an Alice lynch right now.  (Not putting my vote there yet due to L-1; will hopefully be back before deadline).

[Yoshiken]

...lol. Completely missed that one. Haaaah. That really swings things back towards Alice, and I'd push him over Rat here - that said, happy leaving my vote on Rat as well, especially with Alice at L-1!

And, with this, I am reminded of why I said playstyle discussion wasn't a bad thing.

[Kilgamayan]

I don't know if it's because my brain is completely fried from lack of sleep or what, but I'm having a terrible time concentrating on this game right now. Best I can say right now is that Yoshi's case on Zenny, for all that it means now with the switch to Rat (which I don't find particularly bad given they have about an equal chance of getting lynched ahead of Alice at this point), doesn't look terrible, and Alice's posts don't look good enough to ward off the vote.

I think I need to stage of Night 2 at this point to be more coherent and proper (not to mention multiple flips). Ugh, so much lurking from so many people and so many walls of text.

I do, at least, have enough energy to go back and check the thing MC just brought up. Give me a moment.

[Kilgamayan]

Oh wait, they're both there in her post. Derp.

[Cotigo]

Hm.  I WAS going to bite my tongue, but I've got some pretty coherent thoughts on Alice now.  

Alice re-read... hey look mind still hasn't changed.  That he's saying that you can't agree on a truism and think everything else in a post is wrong is such a blatant logical fallacy that it hurts and has already been addressed by Snow and MC.  That both you and Yoshi think this is disregarding things to make Rat's post fit an argument... agh.

Alice's later comments regarding this... saying "NO I DID NOT MISREAD" is probably true.  I don't think that's the problem anymore.  The problem is that you kept advocating an obvious fallacy (that I don't think you're so blind or stupid as to not see) in order to justify your Snowfire case.  Furthermore, the later comments about how you thought it was a bad argument because you agree with Rat's points don't do anything to fill me with confidence regarding your alignment.  (Ninja!  What MC pointed out makes this even worse.

Other things... There seems to me to be a lot of filler in these new posts.  I don't know what Alice was going on about with the whole 8-12 hours past deadline thing, and there's some more chatter about why anti-LaL is bad that feels less than useful given 1 hour til deadline (or perhaps 9-13... >_>).

Alice is looking worse and worse, and I'm the only one who thinks the Rou case has any merit apparently.  I'm willing to hammer Alice if nobody has any objections  (Ninja!  Apparently so is MC), but I'll give him the benefit of the next hour to post some more.

---

YoshiNinja.  Ugh.  Okay, considering all that's happened this gameday, for the sake of avoiding more petty bickering, and especially since everything else about your case has been sound and you've conceded points after I've clarified... I'll address the whole cherry picking whatever when I'm more clearheaded, and respond Day 3.  Fair?

[Taishyr]

(Very random side note, further reply to this: it's possible that Laggy didn't see one example as enough to disprove his point - in fact I'd guess that's where the post of Laggy's immediately after the vote on him comes from. Again, the correlation thing. Multiple points like you provided would probably have done it, but one as was provided... I don't know, that's my best guess of events there. Yeah, pointless side note here, but.)

Next part is in Code Box! Why? Because it's just an explanation of why I asked about Alice and Rat, and features a bunch of jumps it's not really safe to make! Not for those who take logic hella seriously! Hate to tell people to open it in a text document but I've been dealing with guilt over WALLS OF TEXT and this seemed a sane way to deal with it. C+P to text doc if you hate it as a result.

Code: [Select]

(Tai's Stupid Logic (I said it was stupid before we started this, but we got more people to present opinions on Rat/Alice so even if it's full of fucking holes I won't feel terrible.
It might seem suspicious to lead dialogue but they're people I was heavily gutchecking against at the time):
11 people/3 scum/1 ITP. Presume Xanth is town, Kilga is town (hum)/myself as town (this is my [s]story[/s]logic)/Noyn doesn't matter, likely isn't scum (scum would keep Noyn active; if he's scum end conclusion adjusts slightly.).
Reduces down to 7.
I personally have Zenthor and MC as town mentally at this point, think I've explained this.
Down to 5, 3 must be scum (or 2 if Noyn's one, accepting all other conditions of this logic.)
Now, SnowFire, Rat, (and by extension Zenthor and Kilga). SnowFire I crossed off the list at the time due to not seeing how ambivalence on Xanth/Tai benefits scum at all.
Easier to lay down suspicions and try to begin leading into lynching one of us and then the other (again, presuming town/town, which means you have to trust me, but I worked this logic for my own sake more than for you, so cool it for a moment).
Zenthor did the same thing. (Both expressed slightly more concern over Xanth but if they had tried to lead on it I think Kilga/town would have called them on it, which is why I think it's more of a town motion).
Rat considered both of us far worse, he can't be cleared by this logic. (Kilga considered/considers it possible that one or both sides are scummy still but again, making a case on Kilga, this would be probably a lynchpin and it'd be a [b]hella shitty one[/b]. Opinion on him stands right now.)
SnowFire's out, 4 out of 3: Alice/Rou/Rat/Yoshiken. Of these, I felt Yoshiken was fine (at the time) (as stated earlier)
This gave me a scumset (not by interaction, just by logic) of Alice/Rou/Rat (if Noyn's scum, two of the three, and I had no further jump to make).
And that's why I asked the people I consider town or felt to be decently likely town their opinions of Alice/Rat - I wanted to see where people would end up placing those two.
There's a ton of ass in these assumptions, this is hella flawed and I'm probably opening myself up to 900 bajillion cases, but yeah, that's what lead into that question set, this chain of logic provoked those two questions and little more. I didn't want to lead into the question with this logic because I wanted people to try and do a fresh read of them and give honest feedback on the two, but in a topic this big that's kinda hard, in fairness. Rou's exclusion from the list was because I was reading him semi-okay and, honestly, wasn't comfortable at the time confronting the one person who could back up my partial roleclaim at all - but then it occurred to me that if he had lied I would have hammered him like the fury of a thousand suns, and -obviously- Glen knew what Laggy did N0 so Rou also got that update and -couldn't- feign ignorance. So he had to back me up, and I should've tossed him in. Oh well.

Ninja ninja ... good catch MC I was beginning to waver toward Roukanken (yeah, I have analysis, I'll toss it up after this) but that's something that needs to be explained, badly. I'm mainly posting this up so that Kilga can take one look at it during the night and yell at me for being an idiot, I guess? It's not terribly relevant now, but town deserves to have it on the table just to clarify why I'd do something like that.,

[Taishyr]

An error in the statement in the logic: not that Rat considered both of us far worse but that he "would not object" to lynching either of us, which to me carried the same implication but YMMV.

[SnowFire]

Taishyr: Way late now, but since you did ask for my advice, what Kilga said basically, which is hold off on a full roleclaim, but sounds like that's already resolved.

Metroid on Alice: Wow.  Yeah, that makes me fairly happy about keeping my vote where it is.

Yoshiken on Rat: Going back to re-read late Day 1 again...  you've got a point that I may have been too lenient.  I'd kind of merged the timeline together in my head, but Rat's voteswitch was earlier than expected and he only bothered to mention he didn't find the Alice case compelling in a later post.  I can't fault people for vote-switching based on "Well these are the two relevant trains" but meh.  Feel slightly hypocritical since I read Glen's post as bad too but Rat didn't really go into it at all...  okay, yeah.  I do feel somewhat worse about Rat.  He's not getting my vote today because Alice still looks scummy, but worthy of note.

Also, Rat, care to go into any more detail why you don't entirely agree with Zenny's (and to some extent my own) case on Roukanken?  You bring up something you find odd about Rou here but not really why you don't agree with the case.  Too vague, or what?

Tai ninja: Er, I'll give a shot at looking that over, sure.

[Taishyr]

eh. it's not really anything worth looking over till the day's done, but I felt it should be posted before the day ended but after everyone said their piece on my question.

[Cotigo]

Incidentally, Yoshi's also apparently willing to lynch Alice at this point.  With the votes already on Alice, and the 3 of us willing to switch to hammer... That's everyone but Rou (who doesn't look like he's showing up anytime soon), and Alice himself.

Should we even wait for him to post?  In the (very unlikely, I think, given what MC sniffed out) event that Alice is town his thoughts might be useful, but... uh.  Don't know about you, but I'm ready for this good long night phase.

Tai ninja.  Might address after reading, probably not unless there's something in it that completely changes my mind about Alice.

Snow ninja and Tai ninja while I was typing my ninja response.  Screw it if I get ninja'd again I'm hitting post.

[SnowFire]

Clarification: "but Rat didn't really go into *why* at all."

So yeah, basically I buy what Kilga was saying overnight more.  Willing to nudge Rat a bit above Yoshi on this, though I will say that I agree with Rat that too many people are reading towny at the moment and this is making me paranoid.

[SnowFire]

Also I'm totally happy with an Alice lynch short of the most amazing roleclaim ever ("I am Haruhi Suzimiya and if you lynch me the game is over?"), but we probably SHOULD let him roleclaim first.

[Cotigo]

Fair enough.  That's reasonable.

[Yoshiken]

On lynching Alice, we know he's been around. It's worth waiting for a roleclaim, even if it'll change nothing. More importantly, I'd rather hear who he targeted, personally. This setup makes it particularly hard to fake claims, from the looks of things.

Snowfire ninja to say basically the same thing.

[Tohsaka Rin]

"Not much happening today, is there?"

Sasarai sipped his tea. His adjutant looked up from his papers.

"No, sir, aside from the two deviants being singled out already."

That was true. Two people were up for the chopping block, and the election farce'd take another head. Sasarai shook his head.

"Such dreadfully barbaric methods."

Day 2 Votecount

MC (0): Roukanken
Roukanken (1): Taitoro, Zenthor
Carthrat (2): Metroid, Zenthor, Yoshiken
Alice (4): Snowfire, Taitoro, Kilgamayan, Carthrat
Zenthor (1): Yoshiken, Carthrat, Roukanken
Taitoro (0): Kilgamayan, Xanth, Roukanken
Xanth (1): Taitoro

Noyn and Xanth have reached ghost status. They will be eliminated from the game at Day's end, but can neither vote nor be voted on.

With nine left active, only five are required to lynch!
This means that Alice is at L-1, so please keep that in mind!

No more than 29 minutes should remain in the day, ending at 3:35:35 PM PST. It is now 03:06 PM PST.

[Taishyr]

Rou day 2 (and Zenthor, because a lot of it's been back and forth between them.) * Post that: dismisses my case on him (not entirely to my satisfaction: I'm not responsible for MC/Zenny so trying to ask me about that seems kinda pointless, excuses the first post (I don't tend to cut mercy for first post of people catching up), and dismisses the entire third paragraph by simply addressing one point in it when multiple points were made. Not terribly pleasing. Rest of post... defends Rat, critiques SnowFire (and I don't follow it well, please clarify which post was quoted, to start), then calls Zenthor out for keeping a vote on Ciato. Zenthor responds saying he's annoyed and suspicious that Rou has managed to quote these posts yet not read them. Clarified post here.

* Replies here to Zenny. I considered this post good originally... mmm. Thinking about it now, I think it's still probably one of the better ones but I also realize now it dances around the charge Zenthor brought up entirely, which is very unsettling. Zenny replies here. A reply to Zenthor here telling him that he should be scumhunting, Zenny rebuts here saying that's what he's doing and he thinks Rou is scum for his actions. I... believe Rou's been silent, since then? Granted, hardly lurking (24 hours and I'd be calling him out, this isn't even 12, I think. Shit happens. Just somewhat wary that he's silent around deadline, but)

Basically, out of that above exchange, I'm torn between Rou completely just missing the entire thing (IOW, town honestly zonking) and Rou having overreached on an attack and being called on it hard (scum). Leaning the latter just based on his attitude toward Zenthor and the repeated insistence on his attack, but... I don't know just yet. In part, I guess pursuing this will depend on how flips today go, but he's back to not looking that great again to me. (Pot, kettle...)