DL Mafia GAME OVER Scum Win

[Kilgamayan]

Actually, I'm suddenly curious. Where exactly did the double vote come from? I'm not seeing how that happened.

[SnowFire]

Yo dawg I herd you like words so I wordswordswordswordswordswordswordswordswordswordsinyourwordswords.

Kilga: I set my conditional vote to fire off as soon as a Townie hit L-1.  Frank the American ninja would show up on a special mission from the Vice President himself.  So Zenny's vote was actually not needed. The extra vote was completely under my control, so I wasn't going to show it off until it was too late to do anything about it.

Also, was not expecting team scum to be quite so eagre to deprive one of their own of votes in order to avoid boosting a random Townie.

First off, the image of Mike Meekins dancing in his Blue Badger costume in the White House to an unimpressed Richard Hawk was far too amusing.

More seriously, if Noyn had stuck around, this would be a way of introducing some chaos and trying to make it seem like there were two level-downers out there.  Or that there was a scum level-downer who'd then started going on the kill.  It also pretty well insulated Noyn from being lynched Day 1, not that this ended up mattering with the modkill.

Noyn did somewhat blow his claim, though, as he should have just said he was voteless for one day.  Then on Day 2 he declares he's voteless again (due to depression from Bad Badger shooting) and the town power-downer says "Crap!  Somebody else out there must also be a level-downer!"

Also the Meekins role was *absolutely hilarious* even if we didn't feel we could safely use the Blue Badger much.  Definitely credit to Excal for that role.

As a note the role PM that Excal posted of me is slightly wacky.  Not sure what "Misinformation" means with "Change result to something favourable to scum" but the power-up gave me a conditional anonyvote I could use however I wished.  Also, Excal informed me on Day 2 that my Godfather ability was actually perma-Godfather, so I was invincible and returned town even when on the kill.  This caused me to think that cops must be really rare in this game, since a town-result on me when there's only one scum left would have almost surely led to a false role-clear a la Villain Mafia and me cruising to victory off "confirmed" towniness.

On other role comments...  had I been forced to the wall earlier and made to claim a powerful role, I'd basically have claimed a "Ninja Trainee" variant from Meme Mafia, where I naturally "level up" every night and get a different role, level-up effects move me up the chain faster while level-down ones freeze me in place.  Figured that would be both a powerful role and a role that would allow me to claim whatever BS is convenient, plus one that wouldn't scare anybody who had a single specific role into wondering why there were doubles of said role.

Also, QuietRain wasn't in the game very long, but she ended up being correct about something very important.  QR didn't want to do anything Night 0, because we didn't know the scenery.  We had no hint that Falcon's Hijacker ability notified targets something was up, and if we'd targeted someone else, then Taishyr's claim of a bus driver would suddenly be a lot more plausible.  Also, already chatted with Taishyr in IRC over this, but the piece of decisive evidence somebody needed to present to make the bus driver theory more plausible was "who powered up Xanth N1?!"  Tai noted that Xanth didn't mention the strawberry, but still.  The fact that nobody claimed it meant something weird was up, and Noyn never confirmed / denied receiving anything himself.

Night 1 scumkill - well, I wanted to push the meme that the LaggyGlen train was suspicious and filled with scum bussing it.  Ciato was the towniest seeming-person at the time on the Alice train (as Zenny was under major assault at the end of D1).  Sorry, Ciato.  (Ciato also had switched to a favorable opinion of me at the end, but nobody played the NK speculation game.)

Night 2 scumkill - See earlier post.

Other role notes - Scum doublevoter is hax.  I held off from posting in the Mafia Mods thread about Metroid's proposed game, but in general, different vote balances upend a lot of assumptions about Mafia.  Specifically, I was somewhat expecting Day 3 to have just been Potential LYLO with no further comments.  I'd mention "yeah I could have been a vig but aren't that's why it's PLYLO no big deal guys" and then town would randomly die, though Excal caught on noticing this in the PM and strongly declared LYLO with an explicit "towny votes towny and town loses."  Which was for the best, the ninja victory would have been lame, but it did leak information that the scum had a doublevoter.  It also leaked information to me when Excal said that town's odds were neglible, which told me that nobody else was a Vigilante for Night 3, and obviously nobody was a Vig on earlier nights, so therefore Vig would be a very safe claim to make.  Don't get me wrong, Excal did the right thing, but vote-powers give the GM the choice between warning town to avoid a ninja victory or of leaking private information, which is meh.

The setup was quite interesting, but as usual increased power means increased swinginess.  Definitely a setup where if all the gears are working correctly for scum they're incredibly powerful, but lose one person and everything would have fallen apart.

[Kilgamayan]

Snow: No, I'm saying I looked through the role PMs and saw nothing that indicated a doublevote could surface anywhere. Where, game mechanically, did it come from?

"Change result to something favourable to scum" is a very odd way to say "doublevote" if that's what it was.

EDIT: Never mind, read the rest of your post.

[Roukanken]

May as well say that it's a hard call in terms of Town MVP here. Zenny was on the mark all the time against me, but he couldn't win people over; Kilga had convincing arguments, but he was on all the wrong targets. Both were pretty much accepted as Town, though, so I'm willing to say joint MVP.

Now, back to doing everything I can to avoid Mafia. :V

[Cotigo]

Now, back to doing everything I can to avoid Mafia. :V

This is good advice for everyone.

[Xanth]

Well, lesson learned not to play during the May-July busy period (better lesson to learn: find a better job). Kind of required something approaching a perfect storm to screw up that badly, but apparently it can happen, so let's not harm town so badly again. At least my hunting wasn't so inherently terrible this game, I was just thoroughly distracted by noise from start to finish.

I received nothing in my message regarding strawberries or anything else. It simply said that because an 'opening has appeared' I had gained a single use of gires. Guess it should have done?

[SnowFire]

Excellent work, Captain Falcon.  I did promise you a reward for your service of the Great United States of America.  I think you'll find this shield handy.



Yours if you want it!  And the title, too.

Also, had a moderately amusing session chatting with myself earlier today.

[3:28pm] <RichardHawk> OBJECTION!
[3:28pm] <RichardHawk> Why is a Fake Richard here
[3:28pm] <RandomConsonant> No one sane defends P1 design decisions
[3:28pm] <RichardSHawkFire> Fake?  We're talking about Persona.
[3:28pm] <RichardSHawkFire> You are me, and me is you.
[3:29pm] <RichardHawk> I see.
[3:29pm] * RandomConsonant sticks RichardFire's hand in the TV
[3:29pm] <RichardSHawkFire> Anyway Michael is in big trouble now.  His chosen band of lackies couldn't stop me (us?).
[3:29pm] <RichardHawk> Okay, do you learn any cool abilities
[3:30pm] <RichardSHawkFire> We'll see what the so-called Metal Wolf can do against the combined might of Weltall, Worker 8, and whatever Shion's mech is.
[3:30pm] <RichardSHawkFire> Also no.
[3:30pm] <RichardHawk> what
[3:30pm] <RichardSHawkFire> I'm already Vice President, how much cooler can you get than that.
[3:30pm] <RichardHawk> I don't support XS
[3:30pm] * RichardSHawkFire swings a baseball bat at the TV
[3:30pm] <RichardHawk> YOU'RE NOT MEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
[3:30pm] *** RichardSHawkFire is now known as: ShadowRichardHawk
[3:31pm] <ShadowRichardHawk> Call it "surplus mech reduction," friend!
[3:31pm] <ShadowRichardHawk> Admit it, YOU LOVE XENOSAGA!
[3:31pm] <RandomConsonant> Looks like someone ordered a stupid looking boss~
[3:31pm] <RichardHawk> I have nothing to admit
[3:32pm] * xorn-jabberwocky eyes chat.
[3:32pm] <ShadowRichardHawk> I, Shadow Richard Hawk, will defend American Justice!
[3:32pm] <ShadowRichardHawk> Here comes my wild card!
[3:32pm] * Kotono eyes Xorn.
[3:32pm] * RandomConsonant eyes Ko
[3:33pm] *** xorn-jabberwocky is now known as: SecretaryWithAMissileCrossbow
[3:33pm] * RichardHawk eyes chat.
[3:33pm] <SecretaryWithAMissileCrossbow> Two Vice Presidents? Right, Cabinet. Assemble!
[3:33pm] * RichardHawk eyes ShadowRichardHawk.
[3:33pm] <RichardHawk> Look.
[3:33pm] <ShadowRichardHawk> Yes, Mr. VP?
[3:33pm] <RichardHawk> You can stop insisting I want anything to do with XS.
[3:33pm] *** Kotono has set mode #rpgdl: +vv Dhyerwolf Unoriginal
[3:33pm] <RichardHawk> OR I can find an awesome shadow version of myself.
[3:34pm] <SecretaryWithAMissileCrossbow> Like Nitori.
[3:34pm] <RichardHawk> While you will be forgotten for eternity.
[3:34pm] <Kotono> ...
[3:34pm] <Kotono> <RichardHawk> OR I can find an awesome shadow version of myself.
[3:34pm] <Kotono> <SecretaryWithAMissileCrossbow> Like Nitori.
[3:34pm] <ShadowRichardHawk> Does Kotono want to be the Vice President's true self instead?
[3:34pm] <RichardHawk> Well
[3:34pm] <ShadowRichardHawk> Hmmmm.
[3:34pm] <RichardHawk> Vaikappa would be a decent benefit.
[3:34pm] <ShadowRichardHawk> How about we compromise.
[3:35pm] <ShadowRichardHawk> We hold Shion hostage in space or something and lure Michael there as a trap.
[3:35pm] <SecretaryWithAMissileCrossbow> Except Vaikappa's currently out for repairs.
[3:35pm] <ShadowRichardHawk> And get rid of two threats at once.
[3:35pm] <ShadowRichardHawk> Sound good?
[3:35pm] <RichardHawk> Why do you have a Shion fixation
[3:35pm] <RichardHawk> Get out
[3:35pm] <ShadowRichardHawk> Yup, looks like it is dippy looking boss time~
[3:36pm] <ShadowRichardHawk> SUCK ON MY MISSILE PUNCH
[3:36pm] <RichardHawk> EAT MY FLAME OF JUSTICE
[3:36pm] * SecretaryWithAMissileCrossbow blows both up from a distance, goes to report back to the President.
[3:36pm] *** RandomConsonant is now known as: RandomObnoxiousReporter
[3:37pm] <RandomObnoxiousReporter> Oh my goodness!
[3:37pm] <ShadowRichardHawk> At least DNN can be trusted to be fair and balanced.
[3:37pm] *** Signoff: Dhyerwolf (Ping timeout)
[3:37pm] * RandomObnoxiousReporter gets shot down, vows to return
[3:37pm] <RichardHawk> There is only one way to settle this.
[3:37pm] <RichardHawk> A tea ceremony.
[3:37pm] *** RandomObnoxiousReporter is now known as: RandomConsonant
[3:38pm] <ShadowRichardHawk> I'll go grab my kimono.
[3:38pm] * Hello-DojimathedralWaddleDee gnaws on the Xofnat.
[3:38pm] * RichardHawk eyes DL Mafia. Okay, this makes a hilarious amount of sense now.
[3:39pm] * ShadowRichardHawk prepares three tea kettles, waits to see which one the vice president will pick.  Green?  White?  Or Darjeeling?
[3:39pm] <RichardHawk> There's nothing like sipping delicious darjeeling tea while watching you prove yourself to be an impostor and a heinous terrorist
[3:40pm] <Ephraim> Peter MacDonald is a far and rightious journalist
[3:40pm] <ShadowRichardHawk> Well then.  Perhaps you are more balanced with your other self after all.
[3:40pm] <Ephraim> *fair
[3:40pm] * DrinkYourselfBreen kidnaps both of them, drills out their teeth/sinuses/stomach/other organs, replaces with circuits, and gives them guns.
[3:40pm] <ShadowRichardHawk> Maybe one day you'll be able to talk about your Xenosaga love openly, but it'll be long path.
[3:41pm] *** ShadowRichardHawk is now known as: RichardSHawkFire
[3:41pm] <RichardHawk> Or I could just ship you to Brazil.
[3:41pm] <DrinkYourselfBreen> Now stop bickering and go shoot some scientists.
[3:42pm] <RichardSHawkFire> So long as they're not AMERICAN scientists in service of the VP.
[3:42pm] <RandomConsonant> And remember.
[3:42pm] <RandomConsonant> A heart that Loves Justice is a heart that Loves America.
[3:42pm] <RichardHawk> I prefer putting scientists in cages.
[3:42pm] * Hello-DojimathedralWaddleDee imagines american scientists in service of Valkyrie Profile.
[3:42pm] * RandomConsonant sheds a single tear


Had I been around for hammer (and had everyone been in a good mood), I would have posted something along these lines (and if Excal confirmed that the night phase was irrelevant).

---
The defining principle of the Great United States of Esthar is one man, one vote.  I am that one man.  And here is my one vote.

##VOTE: Whoever
##VOTE: Whoever



What did you tell them, Michael?  The old saw about being born in Finland?  As if the 34th amendment to the new US Constitution doesn't explicitly allow me to rule regardless.  And besides, the masses will easily accept my faked Minnesota birth certificate.  You could've found better stooges, too.  Say, Rinoa, Shion, or Colette?  All master strategists whose next move is practically impossible to predict.  Odin was a good choice but not nearly enough to stop an American hero like me.

By the way, I'll need a shipment of deliciousness to the White House, MC-Bard.  The Captain can show you the way.  Also, Cabinet positions for everyone who signs up on the winning side - the AMERICAN side.  Thinking Health & Human Services for MC-Bard, and Director of the CIA for Zenny.  Kilga stays up late at night so you can head the secret police and watch out for those terrorist supporters of Metal Wolf, but as a warning you WILL be sent to Guantanamo Bay if you post those cosplay pictures.

Do you think that you and your lackeys can stop me tonight, Michael?  Because I don't think you can.  And now that the DL Armory is within my grasp, do you think Metal Wolf can stand up to my many new toys?  I think I'm going to clean your clock.

Oh, I almost forgot!  Time for my afternoon tea... Nothing like sipping some delicious Darjeeling tea.

[Kilgamayan]

So I got pressured into this on IRC.

NOT FOR XANTH'S EYES DO NOT CLICK ON THIS IF YOU ENJOY GALAXY ANGEL TO ANY DEGREE

(also features a bonus Eirin crossplay)

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

I rofl'd.

[Excal]

Huh, oh, Misinformation is still there.  That got swapped out while talking to Alex during balancing.  It was a double vote.

[Cotigo]

There's a lot of things still in the posted Role PMs that clearly got swapped out for something else later.  Note how Falcon's cover is Gadget Z in the PM but Seifer at the end, for one.

[Excal]

Yeah, Snowfire and Roukanken both wanted different ones after the game started.  Honestly, the power role stuff was written down to organize my thoughts and show it to Alex.  After that, everything important was in my head.

I am a lousy record keeper.

[Yoshiken]

Then on Day 2 he declares he's voteless again (due to depression from Bad Badger shooting) and the town power-downer says "Crap!  Somebody else out there must also be a level-downer!"

Damn right he does. Good to know that was wrong too. >.>

So, yeah. To clarify a couple of things:
 - I asked Excal on both of the first two nights if I had to use my ability. I did. That's why I continued to use it, despite knowing there were good odds of me hitting Town. (Funnily enough, the one time I hit scum was the completely blind action against Noyn, which Kilga called pretty well (saving me from roleclaiming early, for all that it didn't matter eventually))
 - I read the PM and went "wait, what, poison?" in much the same way everyone else did when I flipped. My initial decision was Noyn because I knew him from another forum and knew he wasn't a great player. If he was Town, it was no major loss, considering I had to target someone. If he was scum, yay!

Major, MAJOR props to Snow and Rou. Both had their suspicions in there, but so did everyone, and I definitely didn't buy the case on Rou, personally. Before reading Snow's reasoning, I'd wondered why I was killed - Kilga was pretty much ruled out as Town, and Zenny/MC were definitely looking to be almost entirely Town, so it seemed weird to kill someone who still had a few suspicions surrounding them. Obviously now I understand why and have to hand it to Snow on figuring that one out.

Also, anonymafia4lief or something. No idea why this game was such a mess for everyone, but I was seriously considering quitting several times too. RouSnow as scum because they didn't threaten to quit or something? >_>

[Cotigo]

Guys, I gotta say, maybe it's because I haven't played more than 2 mafia games in the last year, but I really don't see how the case on Rou wasn't more solid than anything out there (yes, yes, hindsight, shut up).  Hounding on points while painting the posts that answer those points as devoid of content (and thus not worth paying attention to) struck me as pretty blatant.  Maybe I could have spent more time analysing Rou's (also terrible-assuming-Town!Rou) case on MC? 

Honestly, I'm curious as to how I could have made the case more convincing to everyone, if for no other reason so I play a better game next time.  On the other hand:

Now, back to doing everything I can to avoid Mafia. :V

This is good advice for everyone.

But if any of you are still in the mood to think about it, I'd appreciate having this sort of advice.

[metroid composite]

Guys, I gotta say, maybe it's because I haven't played more than 2 mafia games in the last year, but I really don't see how the case on Rou wasn't more solid than anything out there

The big hesitation I had over Rou is that I had similar "wtf, logic doesn't make sense" reactions to some of Yoshi and Alice's stuff.  (And by day 3 they were both confirmed town).

For the record, day 2 if I'd had time I would have done a reread and presented analysis on Rou, especially after Zenny complained nobody else was suspicious since I had felt like Rou's posts were cherry picking maybe 5% of his target's contents.  (Unfortunately day 2 was very short on time for me--I'm surprised nobody called me out for how low content I was, and for promising a reread on at least one of four players and delivering zero rereads). 

Snow...I definitely would not have reread until day 3.  Day 3 the fact that he was alive despite scum knowing he was powered up and scum knowing a doctor role just died was...kinda weird.  And...the whole knowing what the strawberries did...well I think Rou was actually the first one to mention that, so I'd probably give Snow a pass there (and Rou received a strawberry, so no real incrimination there).  Except...Snow didn't say "I just saw Rou mention it earlier" and used a "I just guessed" excuse, which was a bit o_O.  I had also stored away in the back of my mind that on day 2 Snow didn't seem to think me being a power-upper necessarily made me town...whereas a lot of other players seemed to think "ok, if that claim is true, mc's probably town" (Snow's perspective makes sense now that I see the Noyn setup).  And...the fact that Snow claimed the effect without saying what it was (potentially bad, but at least he didn't say what the effect was--so if I needed to confirm my towniness I could have just said "Snow, this is the actual effect I gave to you night 1").  And then after my silly claiming moment (where I was still equally careful to not mention what my effect did) Snow goes ahead and mentions the effect, too o_O.  And...I actually did notice that Snow's day 3 text:content ratio seemed to be lower than I remembered it being when I liked him day 1.  (Not that I was inclined to pursue this when posting from a cell phone).

Granted, I was still trying to get information out of my night action results.  See, night 0 when I targeted Kilga, I got back the result "nothing happened" although I was left assured that Kilga was "well and truly inspired by my lecture", which I assumed was just flavour.  Night 1 when I targeted Snow I got back a one word "boosted".  I had actually come to the conclusion that only some of the roles were boostable, Kilga wasn't, and that presumably scum roles were not boostable (a big part of why I kinda wanted to reread Kilga).  Part of my plan for Day 3 had actually been to target Tai, see if I got the result "nothing happened" and then if I did then bluff that I needed other players to tell me whether my night results did anything, and so ask Tai what happened when I targeted him (potentially catching him in a lie).  Turns out everything was boostable, and I have no idea why I got different messages Night 0 and Night 1 (obviously the plan went out the window when Kilga at the start of day 3 said "oh, I was boosted night 0"--would have liked to have known that day 2...or for Excal to have responded to my question on "wait, did I boost Kilga or not?" night 0).

[Cotigo]

Eh.  "Logic doesn't make sense" doesn't really help you pin anything on Alice.  He... well.  "His thought patterns are very foreign to me" indeed.

[Kilgamayan]

Zenny: For what it's worth, I thought the case on Roukan was a valid one - as Tai said, carelessness is a pretty scummy thing (though, in my case, I like to think I'm more careful as scum because I don't want to deal with the headache of getting caught on obvious factual contradictions).

MC: I held off on claiming that I had been targeted to the last minute because I didn't want to give scum extra information. Personally I thought the Day 2 clusterclaim was unnecessary at best and stupid at worst, and hey look at that Snow put the puzzle together almost immediately and it snagged him the one role he wanted gone, among other things. I only did it at all because a doc claim had just died the previous day, so hubris got the better of me and I assumed I was unquestionably the N2 NK, having no idea scum were on the hunt for the poisoner of all people. I left it to the very last minute because I wanted to get it out hopefully after all the other night actions got put in, so scum would have the smallest window possible to rethink their stances (as useless a gesture as this was in the end).

[Cotigo]

Valid, yes.  Apparently not valid enough to place him at the top of anyone else's lists, except for Snow who it is now obvious was playing along for towncred.

[Kilgamayan]

If you're looking for advice on how to make the rest of the game listen to you...let me know when you find it, because I wouldn't mind knowing myself. >_>

[SnowFire]

Zenny: Valid, yes.  Apparently not valid enough to place him at the top of anyone else's lists, except for Snow who it is now obvious was playing along for towncred.

Well for whatever it's worth I thought your arguments were pretty good!  I probably WOULD have voted Roukanken over Taishyr had I been townie me, actually, though hard to say.  Depends on how the Taishyr "knowing too much" claim would have played.  I suspect towny me would have made Kilga's guess at Taishyr's claim regardless, so my defense of his attack was mostly pretty merited towny I thought (though Tai was right that me knowing it was Koroku was suspicious - but can you imagine if Taishyr had brought that up?  "You know Suikoden 3 too well, clearly you must have had a rolecop effect that revealed my true name?!"  Yeah, despite being true (I don't know Suikodog names well either, the rolecop is why I caught the slip), that argument wouldn't have flown, I don't think.).  On the other hand Taishyr had a mostly neutral read to me outside that attack.

On the towncred note, though, picking Alice over Rou to go for on Day 2 WAS a sneaky way of trying to mislead town while still collecting townie cred if Rou had flipped.  I figured Alice was unlikely to show up much so it'd be easy to excuse a static suspicions list where Rou never made it to the top.  I was actually a little disappointed when Alice got lynched - still having Alice in the mix would make it much easier to excuse not voting Rou after I already stated my suspicions of him.

If we had wanted some hilarity in retrospect, you should have gone LEEROY JENKINS yourself and voted Rou first.  Watch as I would have quickly decided that suddenly you were the scummy one for rushing ahead and tried to enlist Bardiche to vote you off the island, despite claiming to want Rou lynched earlier!  If I got lynched as a result though that'd pretty well entirely out Rou but we were kind of already betting everything on Day 3.

MC: I pretty much genuinely was on your / Zenny's wavelength as far as Mafia theory on Day 1, FWIW.  No scum member (aside from, briefly, myself) was seriously in danger of a lynch that day so that was pretty much the same as normal towny me, so I don't think I was lying too much in responding to Kilga's night post as attacking my Mafia style.  My big Day 1 scumtell, to me, was trying to whip up paranoia when I misread Glen as claiming an unspecified power role while not actually hopping on his wagon.  Yikes.  Luckily nobody called me on that one.

[Kilgamayan]

And Noyn still hasn't logged in since the 27th. I wonder if something happened to him. >_>

[Yoshiken]

I spoke to Noyn when I saw him on TTA chat after the modkill. Went something like this:

<@Cielo> Oh, hey, Noyn, you checked DL Mafia lately? >.>
<@DennyCrane> oh, knew I forgot something. -.-

So yeah. We apparently hadn't been in chat at the same time before that, so couldn't poke him in time, I'm afraid.