Regarding the transfer of stat topics

[Cmdr_King]

If we're running with the stat table (and we should, it's nice), we should probably try to keep the core topic down to default setups, it'd eliminate the need for all the footnotes.  Also, agreed that each character should have their stats listed with them, and that fitting the damage average into the table is worth a look (although I'm not sure it would work well, considering that most topics use multiple averages for damage (1 turn, 3 turn, etc)).  Also, if you're having the stats with their characters, putting the table at the end would be better I think, although that's easy enough to toy around with I think.

[Talaysen]

If we're running with the stat table (and we should, it's nice), we should probably try to keep the core topic down to default setups, it'd eliminate the need for all the footnotes.  Also, agreed that each character should have their stats listed with them, and that fitting the damage average into the table is worth a look (although I'm not sure it would work well, considering that most topics use multiple averages for damage (1 turn, 3 turn, etc)).  Also, if you're having the stats with their characters, putting the table at the end would be better I think, although that's easy enough to toy around with I think.

We could just put default setups in the table, and for alternate setups just list their stats in the character's part of the page.  Basically just remove the footnotes.

For multiple damage averages... I didn't think about that.  Maybe just have a separate table (or tables if needed but I hope not...  Still need to think about that more.) for damages in those cases?  You can fit them into the stat table, but if we end up doing the sortable table, you can only have one row that doesn't get sorted.  Not a big deal, since we can just not use that, but just pointing it out.  You also can't list what moves are used in the average, but I guess those aren't too important (we can always show the characters' best 3 turn damage or whatever with their stats if needed.  Actually that's probably a good idea anyways).

And yeah, agree with putting the table at the bottom.  Where the averages used to be.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Damage averages could probably be fit in the table easily enough. Even multiple ones, if need be.

On the other hand, I generally wouldn't put completely useless stats from which more pertinent DL numbers are derived, such as Power and Stamina in the case of CT.

[NotMiki]

I like the table at the top. personally.  When you're looking at the game as a whole, that table is your best friend.  Damage averages should certainly be on the table as well.  Possibly a 1-turn and 3-turn, even.

I'm very much in favor of individual pages for characters in addition to their general information on the main page.  Even if there's no information to add, it eliminates the scrolling problem.  And yes, scrolling through Suikoden stat topics is a problem.  With individual pages, you can, for example, have a 2-column table comparing the individual character's stats to the game average without either having to scroll or fill your main page with redundant copies of the averages.  You could even code their stats to appear red or green if they're below or above average, comparatively.

[Taishyr]

My main objection to including the damages in the first table there (though they should be at least close to the top somewhere, agreed) is that you'll have the numbers, but adding the names will stretch the table a lot. Mmmrf. Perhaps it's my aesethic sense kicking in, I dunno.

Also, the real reason I hate long Wiki posts - they're a pain in the ass to edit sometimes. Bah.

[Taishyr]

Oh, and to NEB: Power and Stamina have been included because some equipments directly influence them (mainly the twink accessories). I wouldn't want to dig out the numbers for them each and every time I wanted to check the influence of, say, the Power Seal on Marle (other than pathetic).

Updated: http://www.rpgdl.com/wiki/index.php?title=Chrono_Trigger_Character_Stats

Comment more. I've got a few more things I'll be implementing off the top of my head, but for now, after addressing concerns, I'm gonna settle for this for now.

I'll put bosses up later, and maybe if ambitious add a small profile on more important NPCs.

[Talaysen]

My main objection to including the damages in the first table there (though they should be at least close to the top somewhere, agreed) is that you'll have the numbers, but adding the names will stretch the table a lot. Mmmrf. Perhaps it's my aesethic sense kicking in, I dunno.

Also, the real reason I hate long Wiki posts - they're a pain in the ass to edit sometimes. Bah.

Just put the numbers up there then.  Better than nothing.  It's not like the abilities used are even listed anyways...

Oh, and to NEB: Power and Stamina have been included because some equipments directly influence them (mainly the twink accessories). I wouldn't want to dig out the numbers for them each and every time I wanted to check the influence of, say, the Power Seal on Marle (other than pathetic).

I think he means just not put those stats in the table.  You don't really need to see them as often as everything else.  Not sure if I agree personally, but taking it off wouldn't really change much anyways.

Probably could remove element as well.

[NotMiki]

Individual pages look great!  A few things, and I hesitate to bring them up 'cause they're both cosmetic.  First, can we get character icons on the individual pages?  Second, is it worth linking to their existing DL profile?  Makes it easier for people who want to to delve deeper into a character's record, checking out the seasons they won in, or looking up who their opponents faced or whatnot.

Incidentally, is there any thought that the DL records will migrate over to the wiki?  I'm not suggesting it, and certainly not in the short term, since the way it's set up on the site is already very good and easily navigable, but it does make a certain amount of sense.

As for the power and Stamina thing, I'm tempted to say leave them off, but this goes to the question of what exactly you want the wiki useable for.  For general reference those stats are fine, but if you're thinking RPGmon, it'd be better to condense things into a single category.  I confess I'm not familiar with how CT stats work but if, for example, there are 2 stats that determine defense, it's more useful for RPGmon purposes to have a single stat that represents both.  I figure this is still compatible with noting alternate equipment-type changes, though I guess it's a bit uglier.

Is it worth having a separate, boiled-down table somewhere for RPGmon purposes?  Would such a thing be possible without running into contentious issues, such as speed interpretations?

EDIT: of course, you've already got conglomorated stats in there (yeah, I'm real observant) but I still think the idea of having 2 separate tables, one for raw stats and one for RPGmon, is worth consideration.

[Talaysen]

Individual pages look great!  A few things, and I hesitate to bring them up 'cause they're both cosmetic.  First, can we get character icons on the individual pages?  Second, is it worth linking to their existing DL profile?  Makes it easier for people who want to to delve deeper into a character's record, checking out the seasons they won in, or looking up who their opponents faced or whatnot.

Incidentally, is there any thought that the DL records will migrate over to the wiki?  I'm not suggesting it, and certainly not in the short term, since the way it's set up on the site is already very good and easily navigable, but it does make a certain amount of sense.

As for the power and Stamina thing, I'm tempted to say leave them off, but this goes to the question of what exactly you want the wiki useable for.  For general reference those stats are fine, but if you're thinking RPGmon, it'd be better to condense things into a single category.  I confess I'm not familiar with how CT stats work but if, for example, there are 2 stats that determine defense, it's more useful for RPGmon purposes to have a single stat that represents both.  I figure this is still compatible with noting alternate equipment-type changes, though I guess it's a bit uglier.

Is it worth having a separate, boiled-down table somewhere for RPGmon purposes?  Would such a thing be possible without running into contentious issues, such as speed interpretations?

I thought the character icons/pictures were already planned additions, assuming they're easy to find (for ranked/NR games, they are).  Links to the DL profile?  I never gave it any thought myself, but I think that's a good idea.

I don't think we should completely move the DL records to the wiki.  Copying them to the wiki would be fine, but keep them on the main site.

No sense putting an extra table for RPGmon.  If you look at the CT topic, DEF is actually in the table, and that's what determines actual defense.  Making an extra RPGmon condensed table is just replicating data on the same page, which is not a good idea.

[Taishyr]

Also, another thing the base stats are useful for - stat up/down abilities. Forgot about that.

Not putting the stats in the table... mrf. It's easier to have them consolidated there than not, in my opinion.

As for damage... well. How would you suggest I make a note of Robo's power scale? Those numbers are decently relevant, and have a definite impact on the table. And then you get to fun with temps!

Yeah, looking it over I'm liking the idea of throwing the damage average in there less and less, but perhaps I'm closeminded about it. If someone wants to edit it themselves for dynamic reference, that'd probably help better.

Also. Start putting data up on there, people? Chrono Trigger's lonelely. >_>

[AndrewRogue]

Sorry for my lack of stuff lately. Been busy and am home for the holidays. Will try to get to it soon, promise. ^_~

[Talaysen]

As for damage... well. How would you suggest I make a note of Robo's power scale? Those numbers are decently relevant, and have a definite impact on the table. And then you get to fun with temps!

You're thinking about this too hard.  The table is used for the stats you use for all the averages.  Damage is no different.  So put whatever damage you use for Robo's damage in the average in the table.

There's also no reason you can't keep the listing of damages below the table.  And the exact mechanics are in Robo's part of the topic.

[NotMiki]

I would be tempted to say that two numbers, a first-turn average and a first-3-turns average be included, not including temps in the average.  These are, I think, the most common averages used in the DL.  Subjective?  Yes, but still a good starting point.

As for Robo, try this:  if he goes first, he's guaranteed a full-power hit.  After that, we may assume he's taken a random amount of damage.  So we use 2 numbers: 3178, his damage if he goes first, and 1888 if he goes second.

1888 is arrived at by adding his Uzzi Punch damage numbers, allowing that if his last HP digit is 0-3, he instead uses Shock, which does better damage in that case.

Now take those two numbers and weigh them against one another based on the % chance that Robo goes first.  I have no idea how to satisfactorily determine this, so I'm gonna leave the math there for someone else to take up, but there you go.

[Talaysen]

I would be tempted to say that two numbers, a first-turn average and a first-3-turns average be included, not including temps in the average.  These are, I think, the most common averages used in the DL.  Subjective?  Yes, but still a good starting point.

First-turn average doesn't seem to be commonly used at all.  Look at BoF2.  NO ONE as far as I know, uses G Drgn in the average, which is first-turn.

What people do seem to use is a "consistent output" average, which just includes moves that can be used fairly often.  I use 3 times per battle, for instance, though I think some people might use 2.

Three-turn averages seem to be pretty common though, so putting those in sounds like a good idea.

[AndrewRogue]

Er, not to nag, but isn't severe outlier damage the specific exception to the first turn average thing, to the point where people either fully disclude it OR do three turn because taking it into averages would ruin everyone (or severely weird cases, like VP)?

In my experience, it's first turn unless there is some weird factor that makes first turn impractical.

[Talaysen]

Er, not to nag, but isn't severe outlier damage the specific exception to the first turn average thing, to the point where people either fully disclude it OR do three turn because taking it into averages would ruin everyone (or severely weird cases, like VP)?

In my experience, it's first turn unless there is some weird factor that makes first turn impractical.

Perhaps that's the reasoning behind it?  I don't know.  Calling something an "outlier" seems so hard to judge.  When exactly does something become an outlier?

I don't think people would use a first turn damage average if everyone's damage dropped by like 20% after the first turn either.  Those aren't outliers, it's only 20%.  Likewise if it increased (and people are more likely to use a different average if damage gets better over time, for some reason...).

[Grefter]

An outlier is hard to determine?  What?  If it is over 2 SDs from the mean it is pretty clearly an outlier.

[NotMiki]

It's to avoid confusion about what to include in averages that makes listing both a first-turn and a 3-turn practical.  If you're going with 1-turn minus outliers, it's gonna end up pretty similar to the 3-turn in most cases, but will be somewhat questionable (tainted is too strong a word) because of the subjectivity of what is excluded as an outlier.

I think it would be a bad idea to not include one-time outliers somewhere in the averages.  It's just not representative.

As for outliers being hard to determine, think of Suikoden games.  A lot of the best damage dealers and most commonly used PCs are gonna be over 2 SDs from a full-cast average, and they certainly need to be taken into account.

[Dhyerwolf]

I generally consider the valid outliers for exclusion to be ones where a single character gets a last second ridiculous boost (see: Fei) or one where the potential skewing caused by a single character on a last cast is extreme enough it just seems off (See: Mog's effect on defense in a cast of 14 to a degree. On the other hand, someone like Ness is part of a cast of 4), or both (VP 1 Lenneth!). That's somewhat a separate issue from 1 turn/3 turn stuff. The big advantage of a 3 turn average is that if the cast all has one big shot of damage they can access that isn't a limit, this damage would be really inflated if it wasn't considered in the average (LoL would be an example).

[Grefter]

Wait what?  Unless I have completely and totally forgotten my statistics.

If a bell curve is completely and totally fucked by being massively weighted at two ends then the standard deviations mirror that and they top and low end things are not going to be 2 standard deviations apart. The larger a stat spread is the larger each SD is going to be which in turn prevents massive such massive stacking of things coming up as outliers.

If something doesn't follow a standard bell curve the 2.5 SD's covering 98% of the sample does not apply, that and a lot of other rule of thumb stats things.

[NotMiki]

I'm not completely familiar with Suikoden damage, but I was under the impression that it was a lot of similar damage numbers with just a few huge spikes.

[Grefter]

With a cast that big even just a few spikes (5 or 6 lets say) are not going to be far enough from the median to be outliers most likely.  And Suiko damage isn't really that clumped up.  There is a reason people bandy around Suikoscrubs flag with things like mages that don't come with Runes and whatnot.  It is a widely distrubuted average I believe.

Shadow Hearts, now there is something with someone so curve smashing that you have an outlier on your hands.  Other cast members do something like 500ish damage IIRC?  With about 80 damage spread between them all.  Then Yuri has 3 times that damage.

Bah, I might have to break out Excel or something.

[Taishyr]

Okay, quick question. For the hueg as hueg CT Boss post...

We have the Spekkio fights and the sidequest fights.

Should these be consolidated in a different part of the whole thing (Plot -> Spekkio -> Sidequests), or integrated in (Plot + Spekkio -> Sidequests -> Lavos)? Any opinions here?

Also, Fenrir, if you ever read this, why do you say speeds aren't linear? Did you test this? I've got varying reports on both sides, so wanted to hear what you base this on.

[Dark Holy Elf]

(Plot + Spekkio -> Sidequests -> Lavos)

I'd kneejerk towards this, because it's my general experience that most people do do CT sidequests before beating the game, and the sidequest bosses are clearly balanced for before the final boss.

[Taishyr]

http://www.rpgdl.com/wiki/index.php?title=Chrono_Trigger_Boss_Stats

There you go.

Idly, editing that will be a bitch so unless there's something pressing, either it stays this way or you edit it yourself. This is another good reason to have shorter posts.