Regarding the transfer of stat topics

[Taishyr]

Okay. We're considering expanding RPGmon into a more open phenomena, and we've just switched to the new forum.

What I'd suggest is taking this time to clean the stat topics and try to finish off the data therein, or at a minimum, make a note of what data is actually missing so it can be added when people are not lazy. (The former is preferable!)

So, what are we looking for here, in general? Well, for stat topics that are not in progress (my LoM and DW3 topics (shush, Super) and a few others, off the top of my head, would be counted as in progress ones), we should, ideally, have...

-Ranked duelers, if any, plus their stats/skills
-Notable unranked duelers, plus stats/skills
-Averages for, at a minimum, ranked duelers, preferably all unless there is a reason not to
-The game's available status
-Insert things the Tai is forgetting here

For RPGmon purposes, it would also be useful to have
-Durability to physical/magical attacks (like the format used in the WA4 PC topic, first reply)

HOW TO TRANSFER?

Well, we could just port everything onto the new forums once it's cleaned up. No muss, no fuss.

Or.

We could start using the DL Wiki! (Thanks, Hal, for reminding me!)

Yes, that thing.

And use such a resource as the Dhyer/Fenrir lists to reference the Wiki instead of the forum posts.

In addition, this would provide perhaps a more easily sorted and cleaned reference point, and discussion over the various stats can take place in the stats forum instead.

Personally, I'd rather see the Wiki idea take off, especially since we need to transfer the posts in some regard.

Of course, it is the DL's choice. How should we go about this?

(for reference: http://www.rpgdl.com/wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page is the wiki.)

[Monkeyfinger]

How about wiki entries for individual characters?

They'd have, at the very least, their basic stats and the averages they are compared to. If the character has a bio, include that. If the character has an (in)famous history from either the tournament (Luca, Menardi, Dario) or from fiction (TimeLord, Edge, Rune, Chisato, Odin) a section explaining that could be included too.

[OblivionKnight]

Set all topics up on the wiki.  Basically, the first page would be the game stat topic home, with individual links to the characters (not unlike the dead IAQ GH ran), as well as bosses.  Give me a bit of time and I can do an example of it today, once I get some other stuff done. 

The home section can also have a list of things needing to be done.  Again, let me get an example of this up later today.

I do like MF's idea of adding non-stat stuff as well.  Make it more of a database.  Like I said, I'll get to this later today.

[Dark Holy Elf]

In principle, a Wiki sounds far superior to forums for stat topics. More powerful and versatile. Although the white background usually seen in them strikes me as ick for stat topics, mostly because they have pictures and pictures on white backgrounds looks horrible to me. Dunno if that's a personal thing though.

My two (more serious) concerns with this are:

-The work involved in transferring things over to the Wiki
-The stability of such a Wiki; our first one had problems

If those two concerns are met then I'm all for this idea.

[Dhyerwolf]

I'd be up for it, but would prefer if they could be in both places. I'll admit part of this is likely nostalgia, but concerns over stability exist also. Incidentally, for the individual's pages, would what we do if there were 2 sets of stats?

Suppose I really shouldn't say anything on my views of the work of the transfer yet because I don't know anything about setting up a wiki-page.

[Halbarad]

My two (more serious) concerns with this are:

-The work involved in transferring things over to the Wiki
-The stability of such a Wiki; our first one had problems

If those two concerns are met then I'm all for this idea.

Work involved is a factor; I'll leave that to you guys to hash out.

Stability is less of a factor now; with the wiki actually being -used-, I'll be more vigilant about maintaining it, which should help.

The biggest reason the wiki used to have problems is because no one really cared about it enough to keep it up.

And for the light/dark background thing, that's fixable with CSS, I can look into that at some point down the road.

[DomaDragoon]

While I know little to nothing about wikis, and my stat-making capabilities are nearly zero, I do have a few things to say.

-It would be prudent to keep the stats in more than one location.

-Regarding multiple sets of stats, we'd need to determine what it was that made them different. There could easily be different links within a character's profile for remakes, and taking things at different levels/different equips/checking for random variance (curse you Fire Emblem and to a much lesser extent Shining Force). It would be easier if the stat creators would indicate anything that may have altered it - and of course I can say that because I wouldn't be doing that extra work.

-Regarding wikisettingupness, aren't there different skins available? I know the Board 8 wiki doesn't have the default, though it's white-based as well.

[hinode]

It might just be paranoia, but I'm vaguely worried about the possibility of someone random coming into a wiki stat topic and tweaking a few values without anyone noticing - or alternatively, making changes without any explanation why.  There'll still be a  history page at least, but people might still make a screwup if we don't realize that a change was made sometime.

With a forum post at least we know that only mods/admins and the original poster can make any sort of change.

[Excal]

Hinode, the main Wikipedia site has a menu which is recent changes.  This means that we can probably stick something similar onto our own stat wiki, so that we can double check any changes people make as they make them.

[Taishyr]

You also have to register to edit it, which is another layer of defense. I'm honestly not too worried on the vandalism front.

This being said, having them in both places isn't a bad idea, so long as they're actually put in both places. >_>

[Yakumo]

I'd be willing to assist in moving data to the wiki from the old topics at least, and do some minor work like calculating averages and, if someone explains it to me, effective durability.  I'm probably not a good choice to go hunt up missing info, though.

[Talaysen]

Personally think it's a good idea to have both, yeah.  Wiki allows more flexibility, while the stat topics have more stability (since only a few people can mess with them).  Not too worried about random people editting the wiki since we're all pretty trustworthy here, and people need to be registered to edit.  Though if it's possible, it would be nice to have the wiki display the last few changes on each page, somewhere out of the way of the main content, but visible so we can at least know who has been fiddling with it at a glance.  Not sure if that's possible, though.

I'm also willing to help out with the porting and such.  I've dealt with wikis a few times on occasion, so I know how they work, but I'm not really proficient at it.

Assuming we do go through with this, we should try and figure out at least a somewhat consistent format.  I know it can't be followed in all cases since stats are so versatile, but we should have at least some consistency.

[Shale]

Would there be any way to make edit summaries mandatory on the wiki? Being able to read through (and sanity-check) a list of reasons would make policing the site easier, I think.

[Taishyr]

Mmm. As to that, I am unsure.

Okay. Regarding format, is there anything people can think of in specific? My idea is just to do something like: (all substances below are as applicable)

Name
Level/Class
HP
MP/its equivalent
SP/its equivelant, if any
Phys/Mag durability compared to average
Speed compared to average

Stat List
Equipment

Attacks/Abilities

Elemental/Status Resists


Am I missing anything here? Obviously, some won't work with this format, as stated (hi, Pokemon; besides, that already has its own format style), but this should help standardize entries, at least a bit, I'd think?

[Niu]

Hm.....

If the whole wiki thing is serious, I'd like to move my fact center info into it.
Like i have a whole set of misc. data on character birth, name, body weight, hieght and stuff. And if we are going to divide the state topic into indivdual character a page, I might as well toss those things in a extra category under the character.

[superaielman]

If you're serious about doing the fact center and expanding it, get up with Dhyer about it and you two can hash out content, how you're posting it, translating it from Niuese to English, etc. That'd be an awesome draw.

[Dhyerwolf]

Mmm. As to that, I am unsure.

Okay. Regarding format, is there anything people can think of in specific? My idea is just to do something like: (all substances below are as applicable)

Name
Level/Class
HP
MP/its equivalent
SP/its equivelant, if any
Phys/Mag durability compared to average
Speed compared to average

Stat List
Equipment

Attacks/Abilities

Elemental/Status Resists


Am I missing anything here? Obviously, some won't work with this format, as stated (hi, Pokemon; besides, that already has its own format style), but this should help standardize entries, at least a bit, I'd think?

Random notes, but I'd drop class (irrelevant way too often) and level (Usually in the stat topic proper, extra unneeded info), and put elemental/status resists with equipment (Like in the LoL 2 topic).

The other note is on speed/durabilties: TB Speed and Subtraction defense can both be viewed differently. Should we put the TB above average and then note on everything that the range most people who use TB use a range of 15%-25%? Not mention TB at all? Similarly, subtractive defenses can be listed in several ways (Amount of average damage needed to 1HKO/2HKO/3HKO and so on according to the standard measures, how much flat a character adds on or lessens damage, or go by division).

[Talaysen]

Mmm. As to that, I am unsure.

Okay. Regarding format, is there anything people can think of in specific? My idea is just to do something like: (all substances below are as applicable)

Name
Level/Class
HP
MP/its equivalent
SP/its equivelant, if any
Phys/Mag durability compared to average
Speed compared to average

Stat List
Equipment

Attacks/Abilities

Elemental/Status Resists


Am I missing anything here? Obviously, some won't work with this format, as stated (hi, Pokemon; besides, that already has its own format style), but this should help standardize entries, at least a bit, I'd think?

Random notes, but I'd drop class (irrelevant way too often) and level (Usually in the stat topic proper, extra unneeded info), and put elemental/status resists with equipment (Like in the LoL 2 topic).

The other note is on speed/durabilties: TB Speed and Subtraction defense can both be viewed differently. Should we put the TB above average and then note on everything that the range most people who use TB use a range of 15%-25%? Not mention TB at all? Similarly, subtractive defenses can be listed in several ways (Amount of average damage needed to 1HKO/2HKO/3HKO and so on according to the standard measures, how much flat a character adds on or lessens damage, or go by division).

Eh, seems like class and level being there wouldn't cause any problems.  If it's not applicable like class, just leave it off.

For speed/durabilities, this is why I'm tempted to just say leave them off, and just mention the averages they're compared against (and a standard deviation for speed).  I know I use a different calculation for speed than everyone else here, for example (and I'm still hashing it out anyways).  And in the case of defense, the mechanics of how it works are often not known so we can't really give an accurate durability representation.

So I'd say just leave off speed/durabilities and in the stat list display also the average of each stat.  We could do something like:

HP: stat {average stat}
HP: stat / average stat

Or something like that.  Or even:

HP: stat / average stat (ratio)

Since the ratio between the two is often needed (HP, CTB speeds, sometimes defenses).  I don't know.  Just throwing out ideas right now.

Thinking more on it, it would be nice to note what each stat does on each character page, but would that be too much work?

Yeah, just thinking out loud here.  I'm almost starting to think a consistent format for individual pages will be too hard to adhere to due to how different stats work in each game.

Besides, we still need to hash out directory structure as well.  We're starting way too far at the bottom here if you ask me.

[Taishyr]

Setup I was considering using for DW3 is this:

DW3 GBC Main Page

(has what type of RPG (TB) it is, what sort of defense (subtraction, unless I'm demented or something), and links to Characters/Bosses/Miscellaneous (may add NPCs as a type))

Characters

(details of what each stat does/what level the cast is taken at, if it's universal/links to each character entry, attempts to use some sort of semi-cohesive format)

Bosses

(Ditto, bosses are a bit easier to do this for, I feel)

Miscellaneous

(Random information found while doing stat topic)

Something basic like this, I feel, would work well. I'll try to get my notes up in a cohesive format within the next two days so you guys can hash it out.
For things that aren't relevant (level/class), they can be dropped for the format. I feel it's more important for someone to be able to open up the page on, say, Crono, and go "okay, at endgame level he has these stats, is about this durable to magic/physicals, is this fast, etc. etc." because they know where to look for this information, instead of having it be one consolidated mess.

[AndrewRogue]

Tai and I are both working on trying to establish "standard" looking layouts/structures for stat topic wiki entries. So, do us both a favor and go look, comment and what have you. Both are obvious works in progress, so please do give what you can.

http://www.rpgdl.com/wiki/index.php?title=DWIIIGBCStatsChar
http://www.rpgdl.com/wiki/index.php?title=BG2StatTopic

[Dark Holy Elf]

Two objections to the format there:

-Requiring a link to be clicked on to arrive at each character. Now. Linking to a character on the SAME PAGE (through a tag like #Hero) is great. Forcing me to load a page for each character I want to look at? Very bad. Page loads suck. Don't make me do them that often.

-Separating characters by division. I... can't see a good reason to do this, honestly. Characters switch divisions easily enough so it's needless housework to keep track of them, -and- I find it easier to sort through characters through something more intuitive like joining time or alphabetical order.

EDIT: Also, unranked characters often don't have a division yet, or their division isn't well agreed-upon.

Like the general idea otherwise, though.

[AndrewRogue]

I'd... argue that, really, NEB. Without separate pages, individual wiki pages can well become of completely unwieldy length (both to read, navigate and edit), especially if you want to add variable set-ups/PC stats. Beyond that, it also makes having the average numbers in front of you while looking at what the character has difficult as well (I know I have this problem in RPGmon a lot, where I have to keep swapping between the averages and character themselves). But this is personal taste really.

Edit: Aware of that, but I figure an assumed consensus (or assumption) for ranking there would be best. It can, of course, be editted based on experience and what have you.

[Taishyr]

Also, if there is enough demand both ways, both can be done with little to no problem, so I don't see too much of an issue. I'll post an example of that, too!

...later. Lazy time now.

[DomaDragoon]

I think it would depend on the cast. I can't imagine fitting (as an example) the entire cast of a Suikoden on a single page. Page loads do suck, but pages that are 1+ MB just because of text suck more. If I had a vote, I'd side on having seperate pages for characters, unless it's a really small (7 or less, notable bosses included) cast.

And I don't think divisional separation in a stat topic would be all that good.

[AndrewRogue]

Truth. I'm kind of "eh" on the structure their, but at the moment, I'm just trying to think of the single most convenient thing for a new reader to go in and be able to work with. And something that can be duplicated regularly.