Author Topic: Season 60, Week 3- Rika deals with a land based crash.  (Read 5207 times)

Luther Lansfeld

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Re: Season 60, Week 3- Rika deals with a land based crash.
« Reply #25 on: June 28, 2010, 10:03:41 PM »
Godlike:

Lady (SH3) vs. Odd Eye (SF2)- Life sucks.
Belial (WA4) vs. Rika (PS4)- Uhhh, I don't allow the remove dealie so I'm not sure about this fight. Any ideas?

Heavy:

Edgar Roni Figaro (FF6)
vs. Zidane Tribal (FF9)- I allow one status blocker, but that isn't enough here. :) Thanks Meeple.
Garai (CC) vs. Marsilio (SO2)

Middle:

Vesper (SO2) vs Jill Fizzart (FE9)
Venusaur (PKMN) vs Sophia Esteed (SO3)

Light:

Blastoise (PKMN) vs Jacques (S3)- Jacques sucks.
Melville (S3) vs Lucius (FE7)
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Pyro

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Re: Season 60, Week 3- Rika deals with a land based crash.
« Reply #26 on: June 28, 2010, 10:41:02 PM »
Quote
Belial (WA4) vs. Rika (PS4)- Uhhh, I don't allow the remove dealie so I'm not sure about this fight. Any ideas?

Belial just brutally outslugs Rika with damage, or just basks in the fact that Rika can't hurt her because Belial is always faster and Rika has no MT?

OblivionKnight

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Re: Season 60, Week 3- Rika deals with a land based crash.
« Reply #27 on: June 28, 2010, 10:43:52 PM »
I thought Rika's Illusion was MT?  Pretty sure she had something
[11:53] <+Meeple_Gorath> me reading, that's a good one

[19:26] * +Terra_Condor looks up. Star Wars Football, what?
[19:27] <+Terra_Condor> Han Kicks First?
[19:27] <%Grefter-game> Vader intercepts.
[19:27] <%Grefter-game> Touchdown and Alderaan explodes in the victory

Pyro

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Re: Season 60, Week 3- Rika deals with a land based crash.
« Reply #28 on: June 28, 2010, 10:47:28 PM »
Illusion being MT doesn't matter. <_<

Although one could argue that Rika's Illusion works on Belial, Belial's second turn is still coming before Rika's first (assuming Belial doesn't just instantly double) and she kills with two Tank Drops, unless you see Rika OHKOing.

OblivionKnight

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Re: Season 60, Week 3- Rika deals with a land based crash.
« Reply #29 on: June 28, 2010, 11:09:53 PM »
Disrupt, wrong skill.  MT physical, IIRC. 
[11:53] <+Meeple_Gorath> me reading, that's a good one

[19:26] * +Terra_Condor looks up. Star Wars Football, what?
[19:27] <+Terra_Condor> Han Kicks First?
[19:27] <%Grefter-game> Vader intercepts.
[19:27] <%Grefter-game> Touchdown and Alderaan explodes in the victory

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Season 60, Week 3- Rika deals with a land based crash.
« Reply #30 on: June 29, 2010, 12:13:27 AM »
Disrupt works, yeah. Still, Belial should just put on too much pressure. Tank Drop 2HKOs and Belial, if she doesn't instant double (doesn't to me) will double after Rika's first turn for sure, so either Rika heals and gets 2-shotted, or uses Saner and gets finished off by Agony Effect anyway.

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Magic Fanatic

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Re: Season 60, Week 3- Rika deals with a land based crash.
« Reply #31 on: June 29, 2010, 07:15:38 AM »
On Zidane vs Edgar, it should also be noted that Clear-Headed pops up on his current default helmet.

Antibody, on Armlets or Vests that Zidane can equip, shows up on the Glass Armlets and Survival Vest...  If you only allow one equip change for status resistance.

James_xeno

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Re: Season 60, Week 3- Rika deals with a land based crash.
« Reply #32 on: July 02, 2010, 04:32:29 AM »
Sorry this took so long.


Quote
Zidane just equips something with Clear Headed on it

This equipping does not, in and of itself, give him any protection against confuse. He has to set a skill to get that. That's fine if you want to allow it, but I personally don't, and this argument has been well-hashed out before so I suspect you'll be unlikely to convince too many people.

But what is the difference, practical or otherwise?

I do respect difference of opinion. But it's a little hard when you don't quite get the logical underpinnings of said views.



Quote
Petrify = Game Over!

On PCs, yes. A number of games have statuses that do different things to PCs and enemies. A glaring example is VP2, in which freeze is game over on PCs yet wears off in a under a second on enemies.

On everything that can be hit by it!

Yes but FFIX is not VP2. What proof is there that this is the way FFIX works? And how does this view get around the fact that we know that petrify is the same status for both PCs and enemies, that you can game over with your own attacks or theirs?



FF9 Petrify, when used upon enemies, grants no rewards, similar to simply escaping from the battle. To me that's a very big deal. It might not be to you, that's fine. Again, this argument has been gone over quite a bit in the past, just so you know.

Well you DID just turn them to stone! Why would they drop anything after being turned into a stone? (stone money, items?) You do get AP.

Similar to escaping?! Maybe in one single barely even abstract way.

I mean it's silly beyond reason to say that someone being permanently turned to stone isn't a good enough reason for them to lose a fight... despite the fact that they can't continue the fight, or that said status means death/KO/end/game over, IN-GAME! We end up in a situation where some people successfully KO, while others don't, with the same status! I'm sorry but that just doesn't make very much sense.



On a side note. I just wanted to say that though it may not seem like it at times I fear. I really do mean respect for everyone I debate or disagree with, and never mean any personal disrespect.


------


I don't come to these topics much very often, but I wanna dispel a certain claim...

That is, the fact that Edgar *NEEDS* confusion to win this fight.  This isn't actually true, however.  Reason being that Poison causes Air Anchor to kick in as well.

IOWs...

Zidane does Doom
Edgar uses Air Anchor
Zidane waits
Edgar uses Bio Blaster
Zidane waits
Poison damage on Zidane kicks in
Air Anchor Self Destruct kicks in -> Zidane Dies.

Why this works? Who knows, FF6 has a lot of weird bugs like this, but its there, and it works in all versions of FF6 I believe (FF6a may be an exception?)

So anyway, Zidane would need both Clear Head *AND* Antibody.  So unless there's an equip that allows BOTH, that would kind of be unfair, as I know most people are under the opinion of "One status protection Accessory (or equip, in some cases)", unique equips not withstanding, so yeah.


Zidane does have non-accessory equips that contain both Clear Headed and Antibody. His stat topic's default head gear already has Clear Headed on it (thanks to Magic Fanatic for pointing that out) and one of his listed alternate arm equips (Glass Armlet) has Antibody! He doesn't even need one accessory to block confusion and poison.

Plus, Edgar still has to live long enough for either status to be of any use.




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Monkeyfinger

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Re: Season 60, Week 3- Rika deals with a land based crash.
« Reply #33 on: July 02, 2010, 12:52:25 PM »
Quote
Well you DID just turn them to stone! Why would they drop anything after being turned into a stone? (stone money, items?) You do get AP.

Similar to escaping?! Maybe in one single barely even abstract way.

I mean it's silly beyond reason to say that someone being permanently turned to stone isn't a good enough reason for them to lose a fight... despite the fact that they can't continue the fight, or that said status means death/KO/end/game over, IN-GAME! We end up in a situation where some people successfully KO, while others don't, with the same status! I'm sorry but that just doesn't make very much sense.

Bro you're right but I've tried at length to make Elfboy understand this, it's futile.

For my money, we as a group may not like flavor arguments for deciding how to vote on a match but they're better than mechanical arguments that have no actual bearing on how the fight itself plays out.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2010, 12:53:58 PM by Monkeyfinger »

SageAcrin

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Re: Season 60, Week 3- Rika deals with a land based crash.
« Reply #34 on: July 02, 2010, 02:24:25 PM »
Issue is that this is actually neither.

Black Dragon Grief wouldn't work based on the character of the skill argument(that is, it forces fleeing). Petrify would. This violates all logic as they're the same skill based on mechanics, more or less.

Black Dragon Grief and Petrify both don't work. This violates all logic as they don't work like that at all, completely different based on character. In both cases it makes no sense somehow.

Or, if Black Dragon Grief does work, why not Persona 3/4 Fear, which causes people to randomly flee but not enemies? Suddenly it's decent odds ID when it connects, just delayed.

How about statuses that have the character of making someone run from a fight despite not having any such mechanical effect? Why not say Kain ring-outs when he jumps? He's sure as hell above any reasonable vertical boundary. How about Pokemon Fly? That takes you across continents, there's a decent argument for that sure as hell having a sideways sweep more than a ring's size. What about 4D Pocket, which gives you a game over but gameplay-wise only does so if you're the only person left? You come right back. Are you even out of the ring if you're in an alternate dimension? Is there a ring there? There could be, we don't see it. Are you out of the ring if you're somehow folded dimensionally to another area and come back, and if so, does Supernova instantly ringout people?

How about interference while we're at it, that's a good clusterfuck argument we haven't had in a while.

Or is this argument about testing against PCs? Why, yes, why don't we test things on PCs. We'll start with the FF games where defense stops cutting in PC against PC damage. I mean, if you want to go that road, go for it, I have nothing against it, but consistency is consistency. There's also a bunch of removal skills that work fine against enemies but never will against PCs(Dejeon in FF7 and Invite in FFT for example, though there's probably a DL-applicable few floating around. I'm not an encyclopedia on move properties, I'm afraid. Yet!), so this can cut both ways.

Now, granted, there are some hiccups based on current views-things like FFX Threaten and FF6 Control are taken as their (useless) performance against PCs. In the case of Control there's some secondary headaches(there's literally no mechanics for Control against PCs. Enemies pick skills from a list just like confusion. If you somehow got control against a PC you'd get a blank list. I suppose you can argue it would just allow full skillset control except it doesn't let you do that to monsters. So...how the fuck do you go with that one?), but Threaten...eh.

But the point is that it's not like it's totally fucked up anti-logic that makes no sense here. It makes sense on one level. Going with "intuitive" logic like stoned people are dead people and that's nothing like running....well, then you have to define your intuition with everything else based on appearances, and that's a hell of a road to go down. One that has to led to arguments at least as weird as the ones I stated, and some far weirder. If you believe in it, go with it, I love it when people have weird views...but don't get mad when people don't agree.

Edit:

For the record I hate both views, intellectually. They never mesh. There's no logical way to reconcile them(in-game there's not either, you just use suspension of disbelief, just like how you ignore how many times you get shot and stabbed.).

I just go with the mechanics one because it opens less of a can of confusing worms. I like my views to be consistent and by god that's hard to do with RPGs; That is, to have logical thought based on appearance, and have it resemble the game mechanics even vaguely.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2010, 02:28:49 PM by SageAcrin »
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Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Season 60, Week 3- Rika deals with a land based crash.
« Reply #35 on: July 02, 2010, 06:00:12 PM »
Quote
But what is the difference, practical or otherwise?

One is a skill, one is an equip. I (and many others) generally don't allow non-unique skills in the DL. I believe everyone can use Clear-Headed, or at least most of the cast? In that case it's no different than a host of skills from, say, WA2, such as the one which heals the character upon gaining FP, which aren't seen as legal. Heck, it's no different from the multitude of slayer skills in FF9 itself, which generally aren't hyped as legal. Non-unique skills = no go. Non-unique equips, on the other hand, are generally agreed to be fine.

Quote
Similar to escaping?! Maybe in one single barely even abstract way.

It's similar to escaping in the most important mechanical way! You (and Monkey) consider the flavour of petrification more important; I consider mechanics more important. And if mechanics aren't good enough for you, you may want to consider in-game use. Why would you petrify something in FF9, ever? Even worse, why would you want to equip a weapon which absolutely wrecks Zidane's physical damage in order to unlock this useless ability that doesn't even kill enemies in a meaningful way?

Quote
Zidane does have non-accessory equips that contain both Clear Headed and Antibody

A lot of people don't allow multiple statusblockers. Just another interp Zidane has to fight against here.

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Meeplelard

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Re: Season 60, Week 3- Rika deals with a land based crash.
« Reply #36 on: July 02, 2010, 06:24:24 PM »
For the record, even though its a little late for this, I just confirmed that there is no equip in FF9 (let alone that Zidane can use) which teaches both Clear Headed *AND* Antibody.  So if you were to allow FF9 abilities, Zidane would need 2 different equips.
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Re: Season 60, Week 3- Rika deals with a land based crash.
« Reply #37 on: July 03, 2010, 03:45:45 PM »
It's similar to escaping in the most important mechanical way! You (and Monkey) consider the flavour of petrification more important; I consider mechanics more important. And if mechanics aren't good enough for you, you may want to consider in-game use. Why would you petrify something in FF9, ever? Even worse, why would you want to equip a weapon which absolutely wrecks Zidane's physical damage in order to unlock this useless ability that doesn't even kill enemies in a meaningful way?

On the other hand, we tend to use flavor as the determining factor for which status-blockers line up with which statuses. I remember recently making the argument that SO3 Chaos should be considered separate from standard Confusion statuses from other games due to its weird properties like draining HP/MP. But my gameplay argument was shot down because of a flavor argument like "Whut? It's even called Chaos! Clearly, it's just like Confusion!".

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Season 60, Week 3- Rika deals with a land based crash.
« Reply #38 on: July 03, 2010, 10:05:33 PM »
Well, using flavour for statusblockers from other games is kinda necessary. Same with anything else that works cross-game like that.

"How much worth Zidane's petrify has" is an argument that can be answered quite nicely in-game without resorting to flavour arguments. You'll notice that Edgar himself didn't even enter into the argument at all.

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