Season 60, Week 4 - Samurai Doggie and the little emperor who could.

[Yoshiken]

Godlike:
Ryu (BoF4) vs Chelle (XF)
Lenneth Valkyrie (VPs) vs Kyogre (PKMN)

Heavy:
Justin (G1) vs Jowy Atreides (S2)
Barbarossa (VP1) vs Scias (BoF4)

Middle:
Bruiser Khang (ToD) vs Kyle (S5)
Leehalt Alceste (WA3) vs Mia (FE9)

Light:
Galleon (S5) vs Meg (Suikos)
Doc (CC) vs Diego Renault (VH)

And you can blame Super for the topic title. ;(

[superaielman]

Ryu- Less respect than average for Chelle's offense.
Kyogre- Smaaaaaaaaaash

Jowy- Faster
Scias- Go first, 2HKO

Bruiser- Heal locks through thunder resistance.
Mia- Leehalt doesn't counter both hits

Meg- Healing.
Diego- Counters+Doc is kinda bad unless he's fighting FF8.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Godlike:
Ryu (BoF4) vs Chelle (XF): Not sure I see the argument here? Even only one Predator Barrage (not two) is enough against Ryu4. Any other Ryu, it probably wouldn't be! But Ryu4 is only slightly above average in both HP and Def, Cray and Ershin are the game's tanks.
Lenneth Valkyrie (VPs) vs Kyogre (PKMN): Wow, I apparently wasn't thinking when I first talked about this match. VP2 Lenneth takes it easily. 30% resistance from Fairy Garb lets her survive Waterspout (VP2 ice includes water, so yeah) thanks to Forcefield, and then Code Break rapes Kyogre.

EDIT: Actually, it doesn't even matter if you ban Code Break, since Lenneth can still use Heal then hit Kyogre as hard as possible, which will reduce him to his merely borderline OHKO average (i.e. 70% here) Hydro Pump/Surf, which Lenneth can easily survive again, and she's more than damaging enough to blast past any Rests seeing as she 2HKOs solidly.

Heavy:
Justin (G1) vs Jowy Atreides (S2): Even if he fails to OHKO, it doesn't matter.
Barbarossa (VP1) vs Scias (BoF4): Scias can half fire without exposing a OHKO weakness to lightning, so he should have this with his faster 2HKO. He also has enough evade to not get arguably one-shotted by Dignity Mayhem.

Middle:
Leehalt Alceste (WA3) vs Mia (FE9): See Leehalt vs. Jaffar more or less? Mia not countering = not that impressive. Two Eliminate Scanners and one Rule of Vengeance are probably enough given Mia's bad mdur.

Light:
Galleon (S5) vs Meg (Suikos): All the extra turns are probably enough, even if Galleon is 2HKOing... would have to check that.
Doc (CC) vs Diego Renault (VH): Not close.

[Pyro]

Godlike:
Ryu (BoF4) vs Chelle (XF): Smmmmmaaaaaaaaaaassssssshhhhhhh. I guess the argument is that Chelle doesn't get more than 2 or three hits from her attacks combined or something. I see her as a Godlike so this is easy (also if she beat Terra she ought have noooooo problem with Ryu).
Lenneth Valkyrie (VPs) vs Kyogre (PKMN): I assume Lenneth 1 can't get water resist. Otherwise she obliterates.

Heavy:
Justin (G1) vs Jowy Atreides (S2): OUCH. PAIN. DEATH.
Barbarossa (VP1) vs Scias (BoF4): Mmm. Sure.

Middle:
Bruiser Khang (ToD) vs Kyle (S5): Healing and evade? I don't know here. Edit: Sure Dhyer sold me.
Leehalt Alceste (WA3) vs Mia (FE9): Leehalt is pretty good against PCs.

Light:
Galleon (S5) vs Meg (Suikos): Healing and whatnot.
Doc (CC) vs Diego Renault (VH): Sky Lord Diego was pretty good IIRC.

[Fudozukushi]

Galleon (S5) vs Meg (Suikos): Even the most lenient scaling can't tip this for Galleon.

[Dhyerwolf]

Godlike:
Ryu (BoF4) vs Chelle (XF)
Lenneth Valkyrie (VPs) vs Kyogre (PKMN)- Tend to see VP Water and Ice as the same I think.

Heavy:
Justin (G1) vs Jowy Atreides (S2)
Barbarossa (VP1) vs Scias (BoF4)

Middle:
Bruiser Khang (ToD) vs Kyle (S5)- Bruiser has 89% damage that Kyle can reduce 40%, which puts it at 53% (and more to Kyle, since his HP is below average). Bruiser is faster and can use his damage 15 times to Kyle's 13 shots of healing. Of course, he could just drop down to his next weapon, which I believe is NE and probably do more damage anyways. Either way, locking Kyle up until a double should do it.
Leehalt Alceste (WA3) vs Mia (FE9)

Light:
Galleon (S5) vs Meg (Suikos)- Kind of surprised to see Meg sweeping the votes so far for the simple reason that I think Galleon's phys+Galleon's crit kills her. I myself am kind of unsure because Meg needs like 8 rounds of attacking or something to beat him.
Doc (CC) vs Diego Renault (VH)

[Fudozukushi]

Light:
Galleon (S5) vs Meg (Suikos)- Kind of surprised to see Meg sweeping the votes so far for the simple reason that I think Galleon's phys+Galleon's crit kills her. I myself am kind of unsure because Meg needs like 8 rounds of attacking or something to beat him.

Galleon is just godawful slow, Meg will Double Turn enough to get those rounds.

[James_xeno]

Godlike:

Ryu (BoF4) vs Chelle (XF)
Lenneth Valkyrie (VPs) vs Kyogre (PKMN)


Heavy:

Justin (G1) vs Jowy Atreides (S2) - ID (55%) with the Bone Splitter Ax + Immortal Aura. (Invincible for 2 turns after it’s cast.. *Opponents will hit IA a 3rd time if noticeably faster than Justin.*) Justin can heal with one of the turns if he thinks it's necessary. He might not really even need ID for the win here. Skills and magic should be enough. Or he could use a Cold a/o heal strategy to run Jowy out of L4 (2) charges. And lol at Jowy OHKOing Justin (120% HP) here when he can't even do that to average in his own game!

Barbarossa (VP1) vs Scias (BoF4)


Middle:

Bruiser Khang (ToD) vs Kyle (S5)
Leehalt Alceste (WA3) vs Mia (FE9)


Light:

Galleon (S5) vs Meg (Suikos)
Doc (CC) vs Diego Renault (VH)

[Pyro]

Justin (G1) vs Jowy Atreides (S2) - ID (55%) with the Bone Splitter Ax + Immortal Aura. (Invincible for 2 turns after it’s cast.. *Opponents will hit IA a 3rd time if noticeably faster than Justin.*) Justin can heal with one of the turns if he thinks it's necessary.

I asked around in chat and folks seem to think that IA is worth less than 2 turns (rather strongly at that). Dhyer's topic clearly indicates two turns so maybe he could weigh in on this?

[Dhyerwolf]

Probably depends a lot timing. I could have been using immediate charging moves, and not thought as much about it then. My gut is also that it was likely a bit less than 2 turns (like 1.75 or 1.8 or something).

[Dark Holy Elf]

When I tested it, it was less than a single turn, but my stat topic was at lower weapon levels than yours, so that could be a factor.

Regardless, if it's anything less than 2 full turns (i.e. lasts until the second turn Justin gets after it), it isn't especially useful here.

[James_xeno]

Probably depends a lot timing. I could have been using immediate charging moves, and not thought as much about it then. My gut is also that it was likely a bit less than 2 turns (like 1.75 or 1.8 or something).

From my experience your stat topic numbers are about right. By mid-late to late game, it should be lasting around 2 turns, and at least that by end-game. (it was even longer for me.) Early game use, low/under leveled, low leveled moves or low stats (no mag lv-up bonus etc) are likely the cause of the misunderstandings over it.

When I tested it, it was less than a single turn, but my stat topic was at lower weapon levels than yours, so that could be a factor.

Regardless, if it's anything less than 2 full turns (i.e. lasts until the second turn Justin gets after it), it isn't especially useful here.

He said that he could have been using quick charging moves and not thought about it.

It is very useful here. If Dhyer's right, the only reason it might not last 2 full turns is if Justin was using slow charging moves. But all Justin needs here are normal attacks which have no charge time. (are instant) And even if it is less than 2 full turns. Jowy's faster. So he would still be hitting IA anyway.

[Dhyerwolf]

Oh, there are a bunch of potential factors on both sides. It could be that it lasts to two turns but I just have a generally mentally of it being so in-game worthless that it's hard to connect to it a use...however, it could also be that it only stops damage from activating! Meaning that attacking Justin would still delay him and maybe mean he wouldn't get the necessary time. I'd certainly imagine that skill levels certainly help, so if you take them lower than I did, that would be another factor.

[James_xeno]

I'm not sure why I didn't think of this last night.
Justin doesn't need ID or a 2 turn IA to win this. All he has to do is run Jowy out of L4 (2) charges. Jowy gets 2 shots and is then done. (and done for) Justin has more than enough healing to run Jowy completely out of charges. I don't even think he needs IA here.

Oh, there are a bunch of potential factors on both sides. It could be that it lasts to two turns but I just have a generally mentally of it being so in-game worthless that it's hard to connect to it a use...however, it could also be that it only stops damage from activating! Meaning that attacking Justin would still delay him and maybe mean he wouldn't get the necessary time. I'd certainly imagine that skill levels certainly help, so if you take them lower than I did, that would be another factor.

Yeah, I understand.

When I get the chance, i'd like to do some research and testing to hopefully get a better idea. (of the reasons for the disparity)

[Pyro]

Jowy can just use lesser attacks to threaten a heal-lock, if need be. A tap + L4 should be fatal, and I think Jowy even had a damage/ID move too!

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Justin immunes ID, so that move is moot. The heal-lock threat is easily credible anyway.

[James_xeno]

Jowy can just use lesser attacks to threaten a heal-lock, if need be. A tap + L4 should be fatal, and I think Jowy even had a damage/ID move too!

Justin immunes ID, so that move is moot. The heal-lock threat is easily credible anyway.

I thought about that. But the problem with "a tap" then BOOM, or a heal-lock is... a tap or heal-lock with what? Jowy's L1s and L2s are both only 5-6HKO damage, against average. (even Justin's lv1 healing would be able to keep up with that.) His L3 falls short of doing anything Justin needs to worry about with his healing. Plus, Jowy has only 3 charges of it.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Jowy's physical is just as good as his L1s, so he's not running out of that... not to mention he'd double before running out of L1s and L2s anyway.

Flash Judgement + Hungry Friend = 1638 damage. Compared to any average except Fire Emblems + L4 runes, this is a KO to Justin.

Even if you take that highest kill point possible, Justin still has to run Jowy out of three Piercing Ones and a Hungry Friend (the second Hungry Friend being the threat for KO). Jowy is a full standard deviation above average speed, which arguably is good enough to 5-4 Justin, who is below average speed.

So, to review, for Justin to win, barring Immortal Aura being better than most people here seem willing to give it credit, you have to...
(a) Use the highest S2 kill point possible, one which relies on runes that are of highly questionable legality.
(b) Take Jowy's speed low enough so that he fails to 5-4 Justin
(c) Allow Justin healing magic despite the fact that it is universal - all four PCs in the final party can use it.
(d) Take Jowy's physical as a single, minimum-damage hit, instead of its average including crits (which heal-locks just fine)
(e) Not allow Jowy to equip Fire Emblems despite considering them in the aforementioned kill point (to be fair, I don't think he can access an equip screen once in his lategame appearance, but still)

I have a sneaking suspicion that you're going to take every single one of those views. I of course take none of them except possibly (d) and definitely (e) since I don't allow Fire Emblems or any other such accessories period. (Yes, Grefter, I support keeping Fire Emblems out of the DL.)

So yeah, to me it's not especially close.

[James_xeno]

I haven't had enough free time to reply to this thoroughly until now. Sorry.

Jowy's physical is just as good as his L1s, so he's not running out of that... not to mention he'd double before running out of L1s and L2s anyway.

Flash Judgement + Hungry Friend = 1638 damage. Compared to any average except Fire Emblems + L4 runes, this is a KO to Justin.

Flash Judgement + Hungry Friend is probably a KO to Justin. A Hungry Friend and a physical..... Don't know. You may be right. I don't remember much about it, anything special. So I'm not sure if my Jowy physical respect is all that high, at least against good defense. Safe to say that it's not high enough for me to give it the benefit of the doubt though. It wasn't even important enough to list in the stat topic.

Even if you take that highest kill point possible, Justin still has to run Jowy out of three Piercing Ones and a Hungry Friend (the second Hungry Friend being the threat for KO). Jowy is a full standard deviation above average speed, which arguably is good enough to 5-4 Justin, who is below average speed.

I already went over that in my last post.
Below average by like 2%. And wouldn't IA save him there? I mean that isn't the kind of thing you can't see coming.

So, to review, for Justin to win, barring Immortal Aura being better than most people here seem willing to give it credit, you have to...

As I said before. You didn't even have to see IA lasting 2 full turns (its listed duration in the stat topic) for it to had been enough. 1.6-1.7 still would have caught Jowy's second attack.

(a) Use the highest S2 kill point possible, one which relies on runes that are of highly questionable legality.
(b) Take Jowy's speed low enough so that he fails to 5-4 Justin
(c) Allow Justin healing magic despite the fact that it is universal - all four PCs in the final party can use it.
(d) Take Jowy's physical as a single, minimum-damage hit, instead of its average including crits (which heal-locks just fine)
(e) Not allow Jowy to equip Fire Emblems despite considering them in the aforementioned kill point (to be fair, I don't think he can access an equip screen once in his lategame appearance, but still)

(a) OH NOES!! Jowy is being compared to other Suikoden II PC characters in a way that makes it seem as if they actually can get runes in-game!!! How unrealistic and unfair!!!!

Rune affinities are good enough for me, in the case of the Suikoden series... >_>

(b) IA??(^) Jowy doesn't last that long to me. Other than that, I agree with you.

(c) I allow individual skill/move/magic sets. Don't see the point in picking and choosing what legal moves someone can or can't use from their individual skill sets.

(d) To be fair, (like I said before ^) up to this point I just didn't think of it as something particularly relevant.

(e) I didn't use the Fire Emblems average, just the L4. If I had, Flash Judgement + Hungry Friend/attack wouldn't even have been enough. And Justin would have just killed with his ID.

I have a sneaking suspicion that you're going to take every single one of those views. I of course take none of them except possibly (d) and definitely (e) since I don't allow Fire Emblems or any other such accessories period. (Yes, Grefter, I support keeping Fire Emblems out of the DL.)

So yeah, to me it's not especially close.

None "except" for 2 of the 5? lol

See, your suspicion was wrong.
My vote really didn't hinge on these issues, because of the aforementioned IA and absence of a lack of respect for it on my part.