Author Topic: Closing time? (Read 18274 times)

Luther Lansfeld · « **Reply #50 on:** August 22, 2010, 07:07:08 PM »

I look at Snowfire's list and go "But there are so many more cool duellists than that!". I seriously think the last season should be less a random assortment of games and more an assortment of people who have shaped the DL. Older DL shapers (like Nina 2!) and newer ones (like Lady, Arnaud, etc.). I do like the concept though. Go out with a bang, not a whimper.

With that aside said, I don't think it's vote totals that is the problem. I think living with 30 votes is fine; I think having a writing staff that doesn't give a damn and is hella burned out is the issue. I don't care if there's 100 votes a week if there are three people doing all the work and they hate doing it every week and feel like it is a tiresome chore and not something they love. The DL isn't a job. It doesn't pay money. A volunteer fundamentally has to be passionate about what they do in order to drive their work to be good. The vote totals don't HELP the drive certainly, but yeah.

If there are people who think they can take over and do the work needed and make a productive site, then I think you should be welcome to do so! I also think you need to make sure that you are prepared for that workload. Tai and Snow and Super have done a lot of work for the site over the past... (I dunno, year, two years, it all blurs.) while and I don't think you should expect them to continue that if you want to continue the site. I think you need to pinpoint the people who will bear the workload before you undertake such an endeavor. As long as there are people who both care and are willing to put the time in, though... well. I actually don't have much of an opinion one way or another. Less seasons in a year, one final closing, or a facelift for who is doing work. I think whatever the appropriate parties hash out (i.e. not me) is an acceptable answer.

But if you want to take over the torch, make sure you're ready. That's all I have to say!

Also holy crap I completely disagree with Tal! I think the DL is way better than board tournaments because I can actually vote on the games in them!

Scar · « **Reply #51 on:** August 22, 2010, 07:18:24 PM »

We should have everyone who has champed be in the final season.

A winner from winners.

~

If we do indeed go the final season path, which I'd rather not, but then again I don't have much pull here anyways!

~~

So just how hard is it to gather new blood to a website like this? RPGs aren't a dying breed, tons of people still love them. There are thousands of people out there that don't even know this site exists that if they did know would flock here by the interesting concept of it all. Some might even come with a writing knack and relieve the burn outs of their job, should they accept that route. Happenstance I guess. I suppose we just need to find a way to gather those peopel that would be interested in this site more effectively? That has always been the problem though. How do we go about accomplishing that is the real question.

Cmdr_King · « **Reply #52 on:** August 22, 2010, 07:25:43 PM »

For the record (since I was the first one to complain about 'looking lazy and uncared for'), I'm fine with standardized writeups. I'm just completely against removing them entirely. I'm just not sure how well we get real payoff out of it... but if people are willing to carry on as we have for five or six more seasons until we start getting week 1/2 results...

superaielman · « **Reply #53 on:** August 22, 2010, 07:35:09 PM »

The work I've done has gone down over the years for the most part, I just have more things going on in my life now. That, and it is hard to be creative nonstop.

Jo'ou Ranbu · « **Reply #54 on:** August 22, 2010, 07:57:14 PM »

I honestly don't care one way or another - we have something that's rather close to standardized writeups as it stands and they're called character bios. Tell me how much work has been done on them for the last twenty or so seasons, then you tell me how successful doing the 1200 or so standardized writeups within any sort of sensible timeframe be. That'd take at least two more seasons to pull assuming we had multiple people working on them non-stop as far as season work goes, and I don't think we have the drive to do that kind of thing anymore. It's a good idea in the long run assuming a rising interest, but I don't think it's even -healthy- to keep the tournament going on much longer due to how little interest it drives (and it honestly can only go down from here) and how much burnout it involves - and I'll bring up that the very idea came up in the very first time too late to begin with. I even understand the sentiment on not wanting to close the tournament down, but, as one of the people involved in the burnout drive, I'll have to echo the toro's sentiments at the very least. And, as a realistic person, I want to say that it's just better do let it rest and figure out the rest from that - if there's even anything to figure out, really. We're not obligated to cater to a possible interest drive either if that's the case.

superaielman · « **Reply #55 on:** August 22, 2010, 08:03:15 PM »

It's still a big drop in work. It's a third less writeups every season and can be done ahead of time. Once you hit week 3, you're done for the season for writeups. That part is very nice. This does need more help than Soppy/Dhyer/myself have been getting of late. Alanna: If you really want to help, *claim* writeups. Seriously.

Jo'ou Ranbu · « **Reply #56 on:** August 22, 2010, 08:11:14 PM »

Yeah, it is. Just... we're struggling to get people to work even on finals writeups and Week 1-2 are historically the most annoying to work with -anyway-. Although honestly, if we're doing standardized writeups, I already noticed we have a huge database of bios, which are decently close to standardized writeups to begin with. At most, do some adaptation, toss them up and call it a day if that's the way you take, and I think it's a sensible enough approach.

I still just support putting the tournament to rest instead at this point, though, because just keeping it up because it's something we do doesn't cut it for me. But then, the continuation of the community we -already- have is the one thing I care about at this point, and it certainly doesn't need the tournament to keep going - in fact, the continuation of the tournament could even cause a few small rifts at this point due to how frustrating putting the content up regularly has gotten with the years. If the tournament isn't keeping us any tighter-knit than we already are at this point nor bringing new people to the DL, I can't say I care terribly much about keeping it going, and it's been shown time and again that the DL tournament itself won't get any fresher to bring new blood. So, whichever floats your boat.

Talaysen · « **Reply #57 on:** August 22, 2010, 08:30:49 PM »

Modifying the bios or just flat out using them probably works well enough.

Tide · « **Reply #58 on:** August 22, 2010, 10:37:42 PM »

I think the bios would have to be modified, no way around it. At the very least it has to be read once by someone who is knowledgable about that character. As it stands, the last time I checked bios, there are some that much longer, some that are much shorter, and some that don't really talk about the dueller, but rather their DL career. We'll have to find a standard, especially if you want to keep some sense of objectivity.

But even then, I lean towards with Snow on this. Going over 1200 characters is a lot, even if each bio is a brief description. That is of course, not even getting to additional characters who may be ranked in future seasons and somebody has to get through that. Then there are empty bios, which hinode has attempted to usher people into doing, but not a lot of good that has done either. And of course, the editting to boot, which likely falls back onto Tai/Snow/Shale and isn't that partially what we want to avoid?

While I am not against a standardized write up at all(again, I rarely read write ups, period), I would like to remind people that its still work, and perhaps a lot of it at that. We've addressed bios and updating tshem in the past, and that takes whipping just to get a season done and sometimes, it doesn't EVEN get done. It won't be a simple task since we have to rife through 1200 characters, altI'hough the end result might be more streamlined. It pretty much requires everyone to be onboard with the idea. Or at least those that want to keep the main tournament running. I'm more concerned though this is likely only a short term solution. It doesn't really address the apathy or the huge burnout.

DjinnAndTonic · « **Reply #59 on:** August 22, 2010, 10:47:51 PM »

It's something we can just do as we go... there's no reason to write 1200 standardized writeups all in one sitting.

And since they don't have to tailored to a particular match, it's a simple task of looking at the character's stat topic entry and writing the salient points. If a character happens to have a decent amount of story/background, then there can be some brief introductory mention of flavour text before going into their duelling worth.

We can modify bits of a character's bio where applicable, but it's just as easy to go to the stat topic for the most important information.

Also, can we start linking profiles to the stat topics now? Those are seriously the best part of the site and keeping them separate for this long seems silly.

And addressing the apathy problem: And can we please link to the wiki from the main page?

For those who haven't seen it recently... While it's not perfect, there's a bunch of content already up, and all it needs is a little expansion here and there on descriptions, but it's mostly workable as-is. Particularly the Misc. Section, which I'm looking at cleaning up right now.

http://www.rpgdl.com/wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page

Talaysen · « **Reply #60 on:** August 22, 2010, 10:56:16 PM »

Quote from: DjinnAndTonic on August 22, 2010, 10:47:51 PM

Also, can we start linking profiles to the stat topics now? Those are seriously the best part of the site and keeping them separate for this long seems silly.

The reason stat topics aren't linked is because stat topics assume some standard of voting. If people don't vote the same way, the stat topic is useless and linking it may imply they are "doin' it wrong". Examples: Averages, 2.5x killpoints, only unique/storebought/inital equips, etc. These standards are not meant to be forced upon voters, but is something that we have just agreed to use.

Not that I'm against the idea, but that is why the stat topics are not linked.

DjinnAndTonic · « **Reply #61 on:** August 22, 2010, 11:27:10 PM »

Alternately, why not just make those standardized guidelines?

Cmdr_King · « **Reply #62 on:** August 23, 2010, 12:17:39 AM »

Just using the bios for writeups wouldn't work quite right; discounting that they're all meant to be nearly twice as long as a standard writeup, if we're using a standardized writeup format, every writeup (or every writeup within a division) would really need to be around the same length. This of course makes some characters more challenging than others.

Dhyerwolf · « **Reply #63 on:** August 23, 2010, 12:26:23 AM »

Other reasons are that some stat topics just don't agree (And I don't mean they use different views/levels of some sort). I do mean flat out disagree.

Luther Lansfeld · « **Reply #64 on:** August 23, 2010, 12:37:39 AM »

So the real question becomes "Who is willing to legitimately put in work in order to standardize a writeup system?", if this is what you want, Djinn. It's apparent from this topic that the traditional people who have done a lot of work (Super, Snow, and Tai) have no interest in it. I think this only becomes a legit idea if you have willing volunteers who will actually do work. Personally, if other people were into it? I'd be willing to help but I am too busy to do a lot of writing. I have done a loooot of bios and I think talking about a character individually appeals to me more than the week in, week out writing about a specific match.

DjinnAndTonic · « **Reply #65 on:** August 23, 2010, 02:32:55 AM »

Well, I'd really like to make the Wiki a more prominent part of the site, but keeping the tournament going with Standardized Writeups seems like a good idea as a secondary drawing feature.

I would of course be up for doing some Standardized Writeups myself. And I heard Sage volunteer to do some in chat.

Perhaps Tal, Dhyer, Alanna, Sopko, Magic, SnowFire would be interested in helping with the Standardized Writeups. I personally would just ask for them to be done as we're doing them now - whenever a duelist gets in, we write a Standardized Writeup for them. It's the same amount of work we've -been- doing, so it's definitely doable, but I'd like to know who else is willing to work with me on this.

Somewhat unrelated: How stable are the portrait images we have hosted on-site? I'd like to use some of them on the Wiki, but I'm leery of uploading all of them to the Wiki space when it would be more efficient to just link to them. Especially considering that the DL and the Wiki are on the same serverspace.... >.>;;

DjinnAndTonic · « **Reply #66 on:** August 23, 2010, 05:01:25 AM »

Hey look, the Wiki is now awesome.

Ta-da!

http://www.rpgdl.com/wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page

Props to Tai for doing 90% of the work, I just organized it.

Cmdr_King · « **Reply #67 on:** August 23, 2010, 05:05:45 AM »

(Drifting a bit far from the purpose of this topic, so if "let's spruce up the wiki" talk continues it should probably go elsewhere. Anyway!)

Hm. I think what the wiki could use is reorganizing the data within it a bit. Like... games should have a hub page, from which you could access the stat topic, boss notes, challenge data, FAQ links, and so on, rather than those things being sequestered off by themselves. At least, that's been my feeling.

Dhyerwolf · « **Reply #68 on:** August 23, 2010, 05:11:10 AM »

The flaw of the Wiki is that it's (for me at least) a complete pain in the asses to post stat topics on in comparison to the board.

Talaysen · « **Reply #69 on:** August 23, 2010, 05:16:03 AM »

Quote from: Cmdr_King on August 23, 2010, 05:05:45 AM

(Drifting a bit far from the purpose of this topic, so if "let's spruce up the wiki" talk continues it should probably go elsewhere. Anyway!)

Hm. I think what the wiki could use is reorganizing the data within it a bit. Like... games should have a hub page, from which you could access the stat topic, boss notes, challenge data, FAQ links, and so on, rather than those things being sequestered off by themselves. At least, that's been my feeling.

Agreed, for the ones that have all of those things anyway.

You can imitate a folder-like system by adding a slash to the page name. For example:

http://www.rpgdl.com/wiki/index.php?title=Wild_ARMs_4/Stats

"Stats" page for "Wild ARMs 4". That gives us a more standardized structure rather than trying to do "Wild_ARMs_4_Stats", which can be unwieldy at times (e.g. Wild_ARMs_4_Stats_Raquel).

Quote from: Dhyerwolf on August 23, 2010, 05:11:10 AM

The flaw of the Wiki is that it's (for me at least) a complete pain in the asses to post stat topics on in comparison to the board.

Honestly, it's actually easier once you get used to it. Templates make things so much easier. The Suikoden Tierkreis stat topic would've been basically impossible on the forums.

If we ever get the thing upgraded and add on some extensions, we can even get easier tables and have the wiki calculate stuff.

Yoshiken · « **Reply #70 on:** August 23, 2010, 05:30:01 AM »

Just to say, I support the idea of standardised writeups and will happily help once I have consistent internet access again for characters I know. The only reason I didn't do more writeups before was because I could vote on next-to-no matches.

Cmdr_King · « **Reply #71 on:** August 23, 2010, 06:13:54 AM »

Quote

Agreed, for the ones that have all of those things anyway.

Welllll, I also think we should endeavor to add all those things to games too!

DjinnAndTonic · « **Reply #72 on:** August 23, 2010, 06:43:01 AM »

Quote from: Cmdr_King on August 23, 2010, 05:05:45 AM

(Drifting a bit far from the purpose of this topic, so if "let's spruce up the wiki" talk continues it should probably go elsewhere. Anyway!)

Hm. I think what the wiki could use is reorganizing the data within it a bit. Like... games should have a hub page, from which you could access the stat topic, boss notes, challenge data, FAQ links, and so on, rather than those things being sequestered off by themselves. At least, that's been my feeling.

I tried to move talk to the User Content topic, but since it's still going on here...

The original Wiki formatting is like that. See the 'Game Guide Links' section. However, it's a bit cumbersome to organize things this way since you end up with a lot of dead space.

Instead, I'm organizing by Content-type, which more closely resembles Forum formatting, so it's far easier to update as new Content is produced.

If you want to organize things by Game, then by all means you're welcome to update the Game Guide Links section with all of the new Content as it comes out. There's nothing that says the DL Wiki can't do it both ways, right?

Quote from: Dhyerwolf on August 23, 2010, 05:11:10 AM

The flaw of the Wiki is that it's (for me at least) a complete pain in the asses to post stat topics on in comparison to the board.

Also, there's always the Wiki Converter, which is now solidly linked from the Stat Topics Database page. http://rpgdl.com/wiki/index.php?title=Stat_Topics

And right here: http://www.rpgdl.com/wiki/BBwiki.php

Dark Holy Elf · « **Reply #73 on:** August 23, 2010, 07:53:47 AM »

First of all, the wiki is now 200% worse due to Persona.

(That's humour, before someone jumps down my throat.)

More seriously, if people do want the DL to go on using the standardised writeups, I'd be quite happy to help out with those. The work being finite does help.

Dhyerwolf · « **Reply #74 on:** August 23, 2010, 09:11:20 AM »

I guess I'm cool with doing standardized writeups. If the option is there, I still wouldn't mind doing customized writeups for duellers I like (and want to hype that week!)

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Author Topic: Closing time? (Read 18274 times)