Closing time?

[SageAcrin]

I can't swear to remembering without someone poking me/feeling good at the time but I'm up to writing again, now. Arena stuff, at least.

Out of the last three weeks, I've wanted to write when people were poking for it and one of those I was asleep. Another, I was going to sleep in 30 minutes by the time people were poking. The third I did some.

[Yoshiken]

Seconding Dhyer on being able to do writeups if wanted. Maybe have it like the optional comments - write standardised writeups for all the ranked characters (eventually - probably only when they're actually in for a season) and use them if no other writeups are offered.

Also, I'd strongly encourage a serious look at the roster. Cut some of the crap out, maybe throw in some interesting or popular characters who've been left out (thinking the 'Pokemon package' mentioned in the last ranking session might be an idea?) just to bring some originality back to the league. One of the major problems seems to be having seen almost every fight (in some divisions, at least) a thousand times already.

[Clear Tranquil]

Ciato basically said everything I wanted to say so yeah *cookies for Sage/Tai/Snow/Super*

*hands torch to Djinn* Yaay wiki~

[alanna82]

Sure I'll  help with standarized write ups when I dont have to work. (somehow I got this entire weekend off and today. ) I'm not the best writer, but I have old notebooks from when I was in college full of half notes and half character analysis.

And I support trimming the roster if we do the standarditzed write ups. Even with 30 votes people are still getting robbed. (points to Norn, who I dont know but apparently got robbed by Nara) Trim CC, Suikoden and cut games like Ogre Battle

[Luther Lansfeld]

I am diametrically opposed to removing OB. I think it's chalk full of fun~ Okay, you can take out Norn if you want, but keep Destin and the Dragoons!

And even if you aren't the best writer, there are people who can check the writing for basic grammar and stuff. Elfboy is a grammar whore and I can be if I want to~

In other words, I think we should trim a lot of games and but keep awesome people from all of them that are currently ranked.

[Yoshiken]

Yeah, I'll agree with that. In all honesty, I'd be more inclined to suggest adding characters over removing them - removing a load of characters is still gonna leave us with a load we've already seen, whereas some ranked games and some newer games have a huge cast of originality to bring with them. If nothing else, it might be worth bringing in some generics (depending on writeup style - if the standardised writeups focus on their strengths/weaknesses in-battle, then it'd be easy enough to do) that have gone ignored. (As a point, the main thing I'd support adding stuff from is Pokemon, since they tend to have quite a bit of variety in skillsets and a range of resistances/weaknesses, making for more interesting matches.)

[Halbarad]

I won't speak too much here, most know that I've been in favor of shutting down the tourney for quite a long time.

For my part, I have no problem with doing some updates to the site software to allow for more user-created content. However, aside from bug fixes, I'm calling the tournament code closed, and I won't be updating it any further (so no format changes this time). Given the headaches from the shift to the 7-week format (not all of which are gone yet) I'm not eager to rework the system yet again for a tournament that seems to be bleeding interest outside of a devoted core.

I'm personally of the opinion that regardless of whether the tournament ends or gets stripped down or made more infrequent, it needs to come off the main page of the site. I have no issue with putting up new software to turn the site to other purposes, just need to know what's needed and when it's needed by.

[Luther Lansfeld]

I think there are a few things that truly do need to be removed (CC characters with literally no fans, Suikoden characters with no fans, VH characters with no fans, etc). I am 100% for more Pokemon too.

So I've been thinking.  I'm going to blather for a few minutes.

I feel like, first and foremost, that the main website does not accurately reflect the creativity and variety of the population of this forum.

Let me just c/p a convo.

DarkKnightDestin (10:49:48 AM): The biggest thing I'm noticing is that I think the links at the top should be different.
DarkKnightDestin (10:51:10 AM): Why the fuck is the Wiki not there?
darkholyelf (10:51:29 AM): Yeah, definitely.
darkholyelf (10:51:37 AM): That thought has occured to me in the past and I've never acted on it.
DarkKnightDestin (10:51:53 AM): I think you can condense results and arena pretty easily and remove NR.
DarkKnightDestin (10:53:11 AM): If we are going to try to change the direction of things to try to get more people interested in the community (which should really be our goal) we need to promote a variety of things on our front page.
DarkKnightDestin (10:53:37 AM): Hell, I think we should promote LFT/MF6/ET here too (with the permission of their respective creators).
DarkKnightDestin (10:54:14 AM): And try to make the stat topics into Wikis and link them at game boards for those games and see if there are people that can add information, join the community. (If people are willing to put in the work, at any rate.)
darkholyelf (10:54:21 AM): Definitely.
DarkKnightDestin (10:54:29 AM): Advertise that there is an IRC chat more prominently as well (I think this is a big deal. It being hidden away in a stickied topic in General Chat is kind of weird to me.)
DarkKnightDestin (10:56:18 AM): I think our overarching goal should not be "let's try to spice up the duelling league so we'll get lots of people" but "let's change our direction so we'll get some awesome people in a variety of ways" (Which really has been what we've done for years!)
DarkKnightDestin (10:57:49 AM): See if we can get a few people to write reviews of NEW games. (I may even try my hands at this!)
DarkKnightDestin (10:58:02 AM): At least ones made in the last couple years. (And post some of the old ones as well?)
DarkKnightDestin (10:59:38 AM): I think the big thing we need it someone with some computer experience who is actually around so we can make some minor revisions to the site.
darkholyelf (11:00:30 AM): Tal has experience, but I'm not sure how much of it is html/phb-based. Main isn't at all, for instance.
DarkKnightDestin (11:00:43 AM): We have people who can write. We have people who can draw and churn out ideas and whatever
DarkKnightDestin (11:00:45 AM): Tal!
DarkKnightDestin (11:04:46 AM): Unfortunately, I have no access to tal right now! (What's your AIM name, buddy?)
DarkKnightDestin (11:05:40 AM): Overall I think we need to tap in on the main site into the creativity of many of our users.
DarkKnightDestin (11:06:23 AM): Hell, try to get some of Djinny's art up too.

(Things in parentheses added by me as I post this.)

Hal: Was there a format change proposed? Writeups can be posted every week in the same way they've always been, they are just the same every week under this proposed system.

tdlr; I think we should keep the tournament but not make it the focus of the site. I think our main goals should be:
a) emphasizing our already existing variety in talents
b) making the duelling itself less of a focus but still exist (since if people want to put in the work, they can)
c) get more people into chat!

In fact, this is the first like two days I've been actually excited about the DL in literally years. I'm not even sure why. I think I just want new people because I'm tired of all you lovable morons. :p OR MORE PEOPLE AT DLCON! I THINK WE NEED 30 NEXT YEAR!!!

(Also, I am reminded that I haven't chipped in to help pay for the site in years... is that stuff still being handled by Hal? I should totally send a check when I'm not in the middle of the Pacific Ocean!)

One last thing... I think if we want to try to focus the site in a couple of different ways that maybe we could change the banner to reflect that? I could theoretically try to make a banner but I suspect it would not be very pretty and all it would have is bishies.

[alanna82]

Definitly agree with adding more links to user created stuff on the front page.
 More Pokemon is good.

I had more to post but I just got called into work to unload truck!

and Ciato, I forgot about the dragoons, they made the finals a few times, they can stay. Just get rid of Norn, losing to Celine and Nara? And yeah, I meant getting rid of the boring dullers. Unless its from an extremely popular game like FF6 or 7.

[Yoshiken]

I'd say to keep the League on the main site, but add other content as well. As Ciato said, Arena/Results can very easily be pushed together, and that would be the main tournament in and of itself. Otherwise, definitely agreeing on adding links for the Wiki, User-Created Content, Reviews, etc.
Advertising chat more is the main thing, though, that I agree on. I'd probably say IRC's the best part of the community, so why keep it hidden away?

[Talaysen]

I won't speak too much here, most know that I've been in favor of shutting down the tourney for quite a long time.

For my part, I have no problem with doing some updates to the site software to allow for more user-created content. However, aside from bug fixes, I'm calling the tournament code closed, and I won't be updating it any further (so no format changes this time). Given the headaches from the shift to the 7-week format (not all of which are gone yet) I'm not eager to rework the system yet again for a tournament that seems to be bleeding interest outside of a devoted core.

I'm personally of the opinion that regardless of whether the tournament ends or gets stripped down or made more infrequent, it needs to come off the main page of the site. I have no issue with putting up new software to turn the site to other purposes, just need to know what's needed and when it's needed by.

Well, if we do standardized writeups, how possible is it to get the site to automatically load the writeups from somewhere if no writeup is put in?  I'd rather not have to c/p all of the writeups every week if it can just be done automatically.

If you don't want to put in the work, I'll offer to do it.  Though if it's going to be tougher than just c/p'ing things in every week never mind.

DarkKnightDestin (11:00:45 AM): Tal!
DarkKnightDestin (11:04:46 AM): Unfortunately, I have no access to tal right now! (What's your AIM name, buddy?)

TalaysenFBW (It's in my profile, you know!)

Agree with most of that convo.  Moving the arena to a more side thing and expanding the site for other stuff is a good idea.  This was actually mentioned in chat recently as well.  Stat topics are a great resource, and even better if we expand them with mechanics info and whatever else we want to jot down.  FAQs, community reviews, both good ideas as well.  Hmm, I might be able to get back into review writing.  I probably would suck less at it now.

[Luther Lansfeld]

You'd be a good candidate because you actually play new stuff, unlike me ;_;

[Bardiche]

I have a friend who thought the NR was a lot of fun... I, myself, think NR has some interesting duellers as well, but ah well.

I have to remind myself the RPGDL has an arena thing on-going. I am honestly more interested in the tourneys from the Tournaments boards, for all that I still hardly ever vote.

[Halbarad]

Loading standardized writeups would have to be a code change anyway (new database field) but that wouldn't be that hard to add, so that I don't mind. I'm mostly saying this as a way of stating that format changes are not on the table this time around.

Yoshi: by taking the league off the main page, I mean that the landing page for people pulling up just "www.rpgdl.com" will be a Wordpress or some other content delivery system and will no longer lead directly into the tournament pages. The standalone tourney CMS system won't go away, but it would require an additional clickthrough to get to it.

[Hunter Sopko]

::Looks over the last halfdozen posts or so::

The site reorganization/refocusing idea is honestly nothing new and these were things that were actually supposed to happen last time. What they require is someone to actually do them. I and others did a rough sketch of a new site layout in the previous topic, where the subject came up at length (which roughly mirrors what Ciato came up with, just a tad more organizational detail), but I didn't really have the skillset to take it further myself.

Since no one else has said it... Djinn, no one is going to just hand the access over to you so you can play around with the site coding. Yes, it makes your job harder, but the kind of access you're asking for is not given lightly. I know you have a lot on your plate, not all of it at your asking, but we've yet to even see a rough outline of what you want to do past what we did in the last topic. Come up with a plan, and maybe you'll get the access you need. Granted, I'm not Hal or anyone else that can grant that, but I imagine it would at least expedite it.

Sorry for the frank words all, I'm just tired of watching this discussion tread old ground again and again.

[DjinnAndTonic]

*shrugs*
The only things I would change are the things I said would change last time - the front page would include more descriptions and I would change the links so that the Game Patches, Wiki, and CCC would be prominent. Probably replacing NR, Fiction, and FAQ.

So... look at the wiki. I've pretty much already uploaded 80% of the Community-Created Content there already... it IS the outline of what I would do. I've done it already.

I'm not a master of webdesign, but I am willing to put in the work.

Addressing some of the stuff already mentioned here:

http://rpgdl.com/wiki/index.php?title=RPG_Reviews
All of the Reviews from the Reviews board, with plenty of space for people to copy over even their WGAYP rants.

http://rpgdl.com/wiki/index.php?title=RPGDL_Tarot_Cards
Best example of my art stuff, uploaded on the Features page.

http://rpgdl.com/wiki/index.php?title=Niu%27s_RPG_Corner
http://rpgdl.com/wiki/index.php?title=AndrewRogue_Fiction
http://rpgdl.com/wiki/index.php?title=DQ3_Journal
Bunch of Articles/Fiction, already uploaded and linked.

http://rpgdl.com/wiki/index.php?title=Game_Patches
Section for MF6, LFT, etc.  ...I wrote the MF6 writeup myself, so it might get changed when Meeple decides to write his own.


This is the kind of stuff I would focus on with the Main Page, but if you want to just make the Wiki more prominent, that'll work too.

Someone who is better at webdesign than me should probably make some new banners or whatnot. Mine are terrible.

Examples:

[Halbarad]

Backgrounds on text are a dicey idea at best (I've only done them in a couple of places and I keep it pretty minimal when I do). Changing the curtains on the main site isn't going to resolve the issues with the tourney, either.

For user-generated content, this is pretty much going to mean we use a Wordpress or other blogging engine (WP is just the most popular/well-known). If this is the route we want to go, we need to work out who's writing/contributing, what skin(s) we want to use, how we want them customized, page links, etc etc etc. My advice here is to check out www.gensokyo.org (or another blog-based site of your preference), get a feel for the options and layout, and figure out how to translate that into what you want to see on the DL.

[Taishyr]

Part of the reason that those updates weren't made, Soppy, is probably because no one pushed them in the final agreement or decision last time. I sure as hell didn't know they were supposed to go up, and I'm decently sure that a fair amount of people also didn't. So, uh, sorry? But frankly you're going to have to bear with it since uh I don't recall the post you made or any of that, nor do I recall a consensus being made that any of that was what we were going to do. All I recall us doing is deciding that the arena format should change.

Regarding standardized writeups, a query: will we be replacing bios with these, using bios as these, or simply having these be the arena writeups and leaving bios to more game-based history and plot info? (Presuming it goes through, natch.)

Also, yeah, boot the Arena off main page regardless. And I still maintain neutrality as to if we do that or simply close it.

[superaielman]

Bios probably should be delinked if we go that route, since they are redundant with standard writeups.

[DjinnAndTonic]

I don't really see the reason to change the format. Some redundancy is fine, especially if it's not even going to be the main attraction anymore.

Also, I was hoping that the bios and standardized writeups wouldn't be -exactly- the same in most cases. ...Just in the cases for characters where no one cares.

...Like Yam Koo.

[Luther Lansfeld]

I'm losing Internet so I will reply to anything directed to me in like... five days or something? The Internet seems to work once every ten minutes or so now~

[Talaysen]

Part of the reason that those updates weren't made, Soppy, is probably because no one pushed them in the final agreement or decision last time. I sure as hell didn't know they were supposed to go up, and I'm decently sure that a fair amount of people also didn't. So, uh, sorry? But frankly you're going to have to bear with it since uh I don't recall the post you made or any of that, nor do I recall a consensus being made that any of that was what we were going to do. All I recall us doing is deciding that the arena format should change.

100% agreed.  I don't recall anywhere where we decided to do any of this last time.  Maybe some links and evidence would be nice here.

---

Hal: Excellent.  I didn't think it would be that hard but I don't know how exactly the site is implemented so figured I'd ask.

Might as well keep bios even with the standardized writeups. I don't think the writeups are going to be visible except on the duelling page anyway.  They're two separate places and two separate things.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Bios should be kept, I think, and certainly not used for standardised writeups. As it stands, they'd be unacceptable for them - many are too long, many don't concern themselves with mechanics at all, and they all have wildly different lengths.

That said, getting rid of them would mean tossing out a lot of creative work, much of which I personally find quite funny. Go read Augst's for an example of what I mean.

The obvious solution is just to make standardised writeups separate. Most of the bios already exist so this isn't really making any new work (and if we wanted to discontinue making new bios for anyone who might be ranked in the future (excepting cases where someone cares enough to make one), I wouldn't be bothered). So, what Tal said.

[Taishyr]

Yeah, that was the conclusion I eventually came to. Are there any terrible objections to this?

[Luther Lansfeld]

Not here!