Author Topic: I need a couple proofreaders.  (Read 2951 times)

AndrewRogue

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I need a couple proofreaders.
« on: August 22, 2010, 08:05:23 AM »
So, I have decided it is time to make my dreams of failure a reality and officially earn a couple rejection letters for submitting short stories.

To that end, I need some help, and was kinda sorta hoping a couple folks in the DL might be willing to help by offering some eyes, some opinions and some criticism to make my work a little more generally palatable and slightly less riddled with grammatical errors and rampant comma abuse. Delicious, rampant comma abuse. I pretty much have the short written (gonna use one I did for a class for this first go round) and I am setting a deadline September 21st for submitting it to a couple of publications.

So, if you want to help this Rogue live out his dreams of becoming an official failure, please let me know. Thanks.

Google Docced for the convenience of people who want to help. Quick note. I'm going to change the ending to Terry instead having actually accepted the license and simply never returning to reclaim it, I think. Maybe. Opinions would be valued. Anyhow, just let me know if you wish to help out. Download and send me the doc if at all possible. If you want, I'm also doing some initial editing on my own (this has been in cold storage for a while) so if you wish to wait for me to do that, I'll repost a link later.

Draft 8/22/10: https://docs.google.com/document/edit?id=1YzZGe9SD_DbfJO0dX7oeZ3SQQJDoMDjbathxOUT-D8w&hl=en&authkey=CM7l4IwM
« Last Edit: August 22, 2010, 08:39:25 AM by AndrewRogue »

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Re: I need a couple proofreaders.
« Reply #1 on: August 22, 2010, 08:16:31 AM »
I waste all of my free time on nothing important anyway, so I may as well do it on someone else's behalf for once. Also I'm pretty sure you linked me to a story like two years ago and I was going to read it and give feedback but never did, so it is clearly time to counter past laziness.

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Re: I need a couple proofreaders.
« Reply #2 on: August 22, 2010, 05:35:35 PM »
That should have been "Delicious, rampant, comma, abuse."

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Re: I need a couple proofreaders.
« Reply #3 on: August 25, 2010, 06:34:42 AM »
Usual disclaimer about artistic style, that every style under the sun has been made to work, and while a good edit has helped many an author, many authors have been good precisely because they ignored conventional wisdom, etc. etc.

That story is overwritten.  Taken in isolation, any sentence is defensible...  but in combination it feels tiring to read.  Too many adjectives, too much going on.  You're drawing too much attention to your *writing* and not the *story*.  Readers find simple verbs like "said" pretty much invisible and let the dialogue / plot just flow into their head.  Which is not to say that a richly detailed scene is bad, but you're overdoing it here.  Plus, sometimes adjectives weaken the result; take "far more" below.  You'd think it strengthens "elaborate," but it just distracts from "elaborate".  As a sample rewrite...

Quote
The upper floors were relatively low key, mostly consisting of undecorated reception rooms and meeting rooms that served purely utilitarian needs.
    The lower floors, on the other hand, were a far more elaborate maze of training rooms and testing rooms designed to allow the optimal simulation of danger that an adventurer might experience, while ensuring that the likelihood of would-be-hero dying was kept at bare a minimum.

I'd suggest: 
The upper floors were low key, consisting of drab meeting rooms, a reception hall, and closets.  The lower floors, on the other hand, were an elaborate maze of training rooms designed to simulate the danger an adventurer might experience, while ensuring that the likelihood of a would-be-hero dying was kept at a bare minimum.

But that's just one turn of phrase.  This kind of change should probably be made in a lot of the story.

Quote
Of course, the relative power of such organizations was a constant concern, hence the need for a strict licensing procedures.

What I noted before about adjectives.  Toss out "relative!"  The power of such organizations!  It's a matter of concern!  No need to weaken the point!  (And relative to what, anyway?)  (Also kill the "a" before strict, and consider replacing "constant" with "serious" or "major" as well.)

Quote
The fact was that a successful adventurer tended to be very rich, which made sense, given that an unsuccessful adventurer tended to be very dead.

Eh.  This line has too much (rimshot) (cue laughtrack) to it.  Maybe cut the "very"s, or just rework it.

Also, what Grefter said on commas.
Quote
Given that this part of the licensing procedure was purely bureaucratic, he figured it was much easier to just let Kiyone, and, since he apparently wanted to be metaphorically connected to the cat-girl's hip, Leon, have free reign for a bit.
Take this sentence back out behind the shed and shoot it, please.

Quote
It at least gave him the peace to try and solve the licensing procedure in the space of his own mind.
Is solve the verb you want here?  Perhaps just "peace to ponder the licensing procedure?"

Quote
He had to yield though, the man had a perfect poker face, not a single muscle behind his graying beard twitching in a way that revealed anything about his thoughts.

This is grammatically incorrect as it stands (unless you're being artistic).  Since you go into the past tense in the next sentence anyway, try "He had to yield, though; the arbiter had a perfect poker face.  Not a single muscle behind his graying beard twitched."  (Readers should hopefully already know what a poker face means, no need to explain twice.  And you say that "the man" is the arbiter 5 paragraphs later, but the main character should know this already; no need to keep the reader in suspense.)

Quote
You'd never expect it, what with her being a super strong beast wrapped in the body of a petite girl

Careful with "super strong."  This story feels serious while super strength brings to mind either cheesy 60s comics or YGOTAS type humor.  This line is also a rather awkward way to remind the reader what Kiyone is; we already know she's a supernaturally strong catgirl (though not, I guess, that she's petite).  This also brings up a world-building question: why wouldn't "you" expect it?  Are most catgirls not unnaturally strong?  Or are most catgirls not thoughtful?  (Remember, whatever the norm is for catgirls in this society is what Leon would think, he's not from 2010 Earth.)

Quote
The noble women of Rinta were supposed to be reserved and quiet. They behaved in a, he couldn't think of another word for it, proper manner. He'd never really dealt with a girl like her before, and he had no conception of how to act.

Either you mean "noblewomen" or else Leon is impossibly quaint and 1860s British.  Try just "women" if you weren't referring to nobles.  And is Rinta Leon's homeland?  If so, he should *know* ("the noblewomen of Rinta were reserved and quiet.").  If Rinta is Kiyone's homeland instead, then why does Leon switch from "supposed to be" to the factual-sounding "They behaved in a proper manner?"  And then the third sentence doesn't really connect, as if Leon never dealt with Rinta women before, then he wouldn't necessarily be surprised by Kiyone's behavior.  I mean, if he is surprised, it's due to experiences from his own travels, not from what it's like in Kiyone's homeland.

Quote
It was impossible to deny that there wasn't something there that attracted him to her, though.

Triple negative - do you really mean that there's nothing that attracted Leon to Kiyone?  Try "was" not "wasn't."  Also squick warning for a short story when you don't have time to get into how this works more deeply.  You might want to wimp out and leave it at "There was no denying she was a unique girl" or something.

Anyway, for all that nitpicking, the story is fine.  Good luck with it.

AndrewRogue

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Re: I need a couple proofreaders.
« Reply #4 on: September 14, 2010, 02:40:46 PM »
Way belated, but revision is finally finished. I'll talk about it a bit later.

Draft 9/14/10: https://docs.google.com/document/edit?id=1Xa1aMqwnI4bvdvz1bU0-woQadVy0PJON0Sqjr_1IUBY&hl=en&authkey=CNnT_OYN
« Last Edit: September 15, 2010, 12:50:08 AM by AndrewRogue »

superaielman

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Re: I need a couple proofreaders.
« Reply #5 on: September 14, 2010, 05:54:24 PM »
The story is fairly entertaining. There's nothing really groundbreaking there, but it's fairly fun for what it is.

Snowfire's criticisms are dead on as far as the grammar and commas go. You're trying to put too much detail into the setting with adjectives, and the comma splicing is a problem throughout. Those two things combined leads the story to sound very slited at points.


Actual criticisms I'll edit into the post when I get home.
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superaielman

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Re: I need a couple proofreaders.
« Reply #6 on: September 14, 2010, 05:57:18 PM »
Or not, it let me post. Cool.

Quote
Kiyone offered a supportive smile to the flustered young man as she squeezed his arm again, but he t pulled away

Quote
sudden force..

Quote
wall shot back into place with a, leaving

Typoes. I saw one more later, but for the most part this was pretty good.

Some odd word choices (Barest sight, superior age), but nothing wrong with that.

Quote
So, undoubtedly, it would be guarded, if not by some infernal watchman or a slathering beast, then by an innumerable assortment of sinister traps meant to incapacitate the unwary.

Quote
It would undoubtedly be guarded by some infernal watchman or slathering beast, or an assortment of traps meant to incapacitate the unwary.

The latter's my halfassed edit, but that is more in line with what I would want from a story. Less pausing, more flowing.

Edit: Going to post more stories?

« Last Edit: September 14, 2010, 07:43:46 PM by superaielman »
"Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself"- Count Aral Vorkosigan, A Civil Campaign
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<Meeple> knownig Square-enix, they'll just give us a 2nd Kain
<Ciato> he would be so kawaii as a chibi...

OblivionKnight

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Re: I need a couple proofreaders.
« Reply #7 on: September 14, 2010, 09:14:40 PM »
Will look when I return from work later tonight and post comments.  Just proofing as in spelling/grammar, etc.? 

I hope your statistical analysis is sound.  The methods are always an important issue to evaluate!
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Lady Door

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Re: I need a couple proofreaders.
« Reply #8 on: September 14, 2010, 11:10:12 PM »
Went through it, and I couldn't keep my editing hand out. Chopped it from 7444 words to 6807. That 10% reduction came from removing a lot of the hesitancy and redundancy I know you are fond of.

Quote
   The three figures stood silently, studying the door that stood before them. It was a simple door, practically a slab of dull, grey metal set into an equally dull stone framework. Despite the lack of glamour, the group knew what the door protected. Behind it lay a chance at wealth unimaginable, fame and fortune that any man would desire. An non-threatening, if somewhat difficult to bypass, obstacle for such returns.
   So, undoubtedly, it would be guarded, if not by some infernal watchman or a slathering beast, then by an innumerable assortment of sinister traps meant to incapacitate the unwary. Which made breaching this less-than-imposing barrier a bit more of a challenge then a casual observer might be led to believe.

became

Quote
   Three figures silently studied the door. It was a simple door, just a dull slab of metal set into an equally dull stone framework. Despite the lack of glamour, the group knew behind it lay a chance at wealth unimaginable, fame and fortune as much as any man would desire. A non-threatening obstacle for such returns.
   So, undoubtedly, it would be guarded by some infernal watchman or a slathering beast, or sinister traps meant to catch the unwary. It made breaching this simple barrier a bit more of a challenge than the casual observer might believe.

--

  • The opening section has a bit of confusion over point of view. Some of the things you say don't seem to be from Terry's point of view.
  • "He ____ed as he ___ed, ___ing" is used way, way too often, sometimes without any real connection between the actions. Using short sentences is fine! Preferable, even, especially when we're talking discrete actions.
Quote
“Sure thing, Terry!” she said, stretching her limbs as she approached the door, her tail flicking with eagerness.

Quote
“Sure thing, Terry!” She stretched and approached the door, her tail flicking with eagerness.

  • You use bigger words than you need. Sometimes this works well! It is flavorful. Sometimes it just obscures what you're saying.
Quote
"But I-"
   His protest was cut short as the mechanisms that powered the trap squealed, the room shaking for a moment as the wall struggled to continue its inward progression.
   "Stop it!" Kiyone growled, bracing herself precariously against the wall, her supernatural strength barely managing to check the wall's movement for the time. The squeal once more gave way back to the dull grind of stone on stone as her boot slipped, allowing the wall to  resume its inward motion. Her ears flattened as she took a moment to reestablish her footing, before she threw herself against the wall to halt its progress again. "I really can't keep this up!"

Quote
"But I-"
   His protest was cut short by a mechanical squeal. The room struggled to crush them.
   "Stop it!" Kiyone growled, braced against the wall. Her supernatural strength was still barely enough to check the wall's movement. Her boot slipped and the squeal gave way to the dull grind of stone on stone. Her ears flattened. She reestablished her footing and threw herself against the wall to halt its progress again. "I really can't keep this up!"

  • You do not have to "allow" every action. They can just do it. Similarly, "at least," "practically," and "seemed" are unnecessary. They are or can be. Use those qualifiers sparingly! It's much stronger when you do. There are times when it makes sense (The arbiter allowed the corners of his lips to curl up in what some might call a smile.) and times when it doesn't (It was a simple door, practically a slab of dull, grey.... the bulk of the metallic door practically collapsed under her worn boot.... her whole body practically shaking with exhaustion.... All the traps were practically ripped straight from old myths and stories.)
  • Part of this proofreading is to catch some simple typos and errors, but repeatedly: than, not then; rein, not reign; you don't break complete sentences of dialogue with action followed by a comma ("No," he said, panting, "You really should have waited!" should be "No," he said, panting. "You really should have waited!"); watch your prepositions and make sure you're using the right now (on vs in, etc.).
  • I think you need to come up with a few more substitions for the characters (can't remember the literary term for it, damnit) - and don't be afraid to use them. "Terry," "he," "the adventurer," "the older man," etc. You stick to proper names and simple pronouns for Terry a LOT, and I think it would help to refer to him by other things. So long as it's clear, this is a great way to add in description and flavor without having to use more sentences.


--

Overall, great! You have a good story. You have good characters. Just need to tighten up the writing. :)

EDITED: By the way, I did this while at work, so it's not my greatest work. >_> I'm emailing you the Word doc I Track Changes'd on, Andrew. You can share it or not as you'd like. Also ignore it. Just remember I know where you sleep.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2010, 11:13:25 PM by Lady Door »
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DjinnAndTonic

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Re: I need a couple proofreaders.
« Reply #9 on: September 15, 2010, 12:30:17 AM »
  • I think you need to come up with a few more substitions for the characters (can't remember the literary term for it, damnit) - and don't be afraid to use them. "Terry," "he," "the adventurer," "the older man," etc. You stick to proper names and simple pronouns for Terry a LOT, and I think it would help to refer to him by other things. So long as it's clear, this is a great way to add in description and flavor without having to use more sentences.
I agree with all of Ashley's points except this. Nothing pulls me out of story more than when a character goes out of his way to describe himself in the middle of sentence about something else. It's like... really? Did he really just suddenly get a narcissistic impulse to think about how cool or frazzled he looked in the middle of doing that?

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Re: I need a couple proofreaders.
« Reply #10 on: September 15, 2010, 12:58:58 AM »
I don't think that's what Ashley means by that...
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> HEY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> LAGGY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> UVIET?!??!?!
[01:08] <Laggy> YA!!!!!!!!!1111111111
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> OMG!!!!
[01:08] <Chulianne> No wonder you're small.
[01:08] <TranceHime> cocks
[01:08] <Laggy> .....

DjinnAndTonic

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Re: I need a couple proofreaders.
« Reply #11 on: September 15, 2010, 01:27:30 AM »
I understand what she means. She's trying to avoid proper noun / pronoun redundancy, and I can respect that, but I disagree that it's a good decision.

When a person is reading, things like proper nouns just sort of sink in along with the meaning of a sentence. In most cases, I feel you can repeat a proper name (or pronoun if there's only one person involved) as many times as you need to keep the meaning clear and it will not detract from a narrative.

And in fact, I feel that going out of your way to -avoid- repeating a proper name when it's appropriate produces far more clumsy descriptive efforts and it distracts unnecessarily from the action.

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Re: I need a couple proofreaders.
« Reply #12 on: September 15, 2010, 01:31:51 AM »
The thing is that the fact that he's using distinct nouns/adjectives for noting the person does -not- equate themselves with a character describing himself in the slightest, which is what you're complaining about. You'd have to be an egregiously unskilled writer - as in third-grader who just learned to write unskilled - to even make the two things remotely correlated in practical writing.
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> HEY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> LAGGY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> UVIET?!??!?!
[01:08] <Laggy> YA!!!!!!!!!1111111111
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> OMG!!!!
[01:08] <Chulianne> No wonder you're small.
[01:08] <TranceHime> cocks
[01:08] <Laggy> .....

DjinnAndTonic

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Re: I need a couple proofreaders.
« Reply #13 on: September 15, 2010, 02:35:43 AM »
I understand what you're saying, but I think you're equating my extreme example with my actual complaint.

My complaint is that I feel that using substitute nouns for proper names (or appropriate pronouns) is almost always a poor choice.

The extreme worst case is that a writer goes so far as to try to make these substitute nouns into -actual- character descriptions in the middle of a sentence about something else.

My point is that even short descriptors if poorly placed can come off as sounding like the third-grader example and I don't think many people realize it because 'AVOID REDUNDANCY' is pounded into their heads so hard.

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Re: I need a couple proofreaders.
« Reply #14 on: September 15, 2010, 07:53:16 AM »
Haven't read Andy's revision yet, though I suspect I'll agree with most of Ashley's notes.  However, on that note...

My complaint is that I feel that using substitute nouns for proper names (or appropriate pronouns) is almost always a poor choice.

...

My point is that even short descriptors if poorly placed can come off as sounding like the third-grader example and I don't think many people realize it because 'AVOID REDUNDANCY' is pounded into their heads so hard.

Nope.  Wrong.  Bzzt.  Zero.  Reading tons of shitty stories over the last few months has shown me that you're wrong.  Repetition of proper nouns and or pronouns gets VERY VERY FUCKING TEDIOUS when you're slogging through draft after draft of stories that refuse to make the effort to refer to its characters by more than one or two phrases/names.  Avoid Redundancy is a good axiom for a goddamn good reason*.

However, you're also right.  Changing things up for the sake of avoiding redundancy usually doesn't make for good writing.  If you have a clever or inspired way to describe the character then you should damn well use it; however, if you're forcing yourself to come up with new ways to refer to a character it's going to be just as trite.

The best answer is finding a happy medium between the two. </useless advice>

*Also, part of this is that figuring out new ways to refer to a character can sometimes force a writer to change up their sentence structure, or change up the writing in ways that go beyond what a character is called by the narrator/narrative.  Which is also something Ashley pointed out with your penchant for using "at least" "allowed" "practically", etc.

Avoiding redundancy is good.  Avoiding redundancy for the sake of avoiding redundancy is bad/contrived/irritating/just as boring as redundancy. 

DjinnAndTonic

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Re: I need a couple proofreaders.
« Reply #15 on: September 15, 2010, 02:48:05 PM »
More specifically then. I qualified it with "almost always" because there are obviously ways it -can- work.

On the whole, I feel that people don't think about people in terms of descriptors. They think of them by name, or simply as the subject of their thought. This is why I feel that in most writing, simply using the proper name again is a good choice. It's the most natural and it just gets filtered over when a person is reading for meaning. (When reading for structure, it stands out, that's why people overdo AVOID REDUNDANCY.)

However, if you really must refer to Mr. A as something other than "Mr. A" or "him", then there really should be some -reason- for it. It should suit the character's point of view. If the narrator suddenly refers to Mr. A as "The red-haired man" or something, then I wonder why the narrator is so fixated on the guy's hair.

Perhaps a good way to use this is if it reflects the character's thoughts. If the character is thinking about how his company is structured, he might refer to Mr. A as "The Boss" in the narrative. And that seems natural. If the character is angry with Mr. A, then something like "That Jerk" is an acceptable substitute. Characters with titles/nicknames are also appropriate ways to use this...

The only other way I can see this working well is if the narrator has a penchant for nicknaming things, in which case random joking monikers can work as substitutes because it's a character trait of the narrator.

Again, Zenny gets the best advice here, by simply stating that it's probably best to work your sentence structure such that you shouldn't have to worry about noun redundancy in the first place.

AndrewRogue

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Re: I need a couple proofreaders.
« Reply #16 on: September 22, 2010, 11:00:15 AM »

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Re: I need a couple proofreaders.
« Reply #17 on: September 22, 2010, 05:49:39 PM »
Page 3: "Certainly easier then if you"


AndrewRogue

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Re: I need a couple proofreaders.
« Reply #18 on: September 23, 2010, 07:50:46 AM »
It has come to my attention that because I was using track changes with my last revision, there are a couple of errors that I failed to catch. My conclusion is track changes is bullshit. *grumbles*

That aside, starting on a new piece while I finish out some corrections with a deadline of, let's say, November 5th. Whenever that is.