Author Topic: Nomic: TROTLR: Turn 8 (Bardikin)  (Read 20066 times)

Bardiche

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Re: Nomic: TROTLR: Turn 3 (Mageykins)
« Reply #75 on: September 10, 2010, 02:51:41 PM »
It didn't work out for me Mageykins so yeah. :V

Carthrat

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Re: Nomic: TROTLR: Turn 3 (Mageykins)
« Reply #76 on: September 10, 2010, 03:04:26 PM »
You know, I have a question

Where is it said in the rules that each player takes a turn proposing a rule-change?
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Tonfa

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Re: Nomic: TROTLR: Turn 3 (Mageykins)
« Reply #77 on: September 10, 2010, 03:24:19 PM »
You know, I have a question

Where is it said in the rules that each player takes a turn proposing a rule-change?

201. Players shall alternate in Hatbotted order, taking one whole turn apiece. Turns may not be skipped or passed, and parts of turns may not be omitted. All players begin with zero points.

212. There are two Phases, or Parts, to each round of the game of Nomic: the Proposal phase, to last no more than 72 hours, and the Voting phase, to last no more than 24 hours.


EDIT: disregard things that were below this point i am literally blind
<Niu> If I ever see that Langfadood, i'll strangle him on sight
<Gourry> What, for making the game three times better?
<Gourry> And playable, at that?
<Niu> that lose the whole point of of L2!!!

Carthrat

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Re: Nomic: TROTLR: Turn 3 (Mageykins)
« Reply #78 on: September 10, 2010, 04:19:00 PM »
Mod should probably clear up some words there, since rounds are only implied to = turns and stuff. Isn't actually mentioned what happens in the proposal and voting stages, either!

Yeah this is being anal but it's nomic, so. <_<
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Magetastic

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Re: Nomic: TROTLR: Turn 3 (Mageykins)
« Reply #79 on: September 11, 2010, 07:48:31 AM »
Mm... well, since I don't have anything better (yet.) I propose this amendment:

303. There are two Phases, or Parts, to each round of the game of Nomic: the Proposal phase, to last no more than 48 hours, and the Voting phase, to last no more than 24 hours.
<%King_Meepdorah> roll 1d999 for "It was beauty...that killed the mage"?
* +Hatbot --> "King_Meepdorah rolls 1d999 for "It was beauty...that killed the mage"? and gets 999."12 [1d999=999]
<%King_Meepdorah> ...
<+superaway> ...Uh oh.
<+RandomConsonant> ...
* +superaway shakes head.

Tonfa

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Re: Nomic: TROTLR: Turn 3 (Mageykins)
« Reply #80 on: September 11, 2010, 09:04:24 AM »
Sold.
<Niu> If I ever see that Langfadood, i'll strangle him on sight
<Gourry> What, for making the game three times better?
<Gourry> And playable, at that?
<Niu> that lose the whole point of of L2!!!

Bardiche

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Re: Nomic: TROTLR: Turn 3 (Mageykins)
« Reply #81 on: September 11, 2010, 02:10:20 PM »
Sure, sign me up!

n-factorial

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Re: Nomic: TROTLR: Turn 3 (Mageykins)
« Reply #82 on: September 12, 2010, 02:42:26 AM »
i can be operational for this, sure, even though my own attendance is on occasion erratic  :P

Magetastic

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Re: Nomic: TROTLR: Turn 3 (Mageykins)
« Reply #83 on: September 12, 2010, 10:03:41 PM »
No one is saying anything, and this is just reminding me how bloody long 72 hours is. I believe I, as the proposer am allowed to call the vote whenever I want, so...

Voting Phase: BEGIN!
<%King_Meepdorah> roll 1d999 for "It was beauty...that killed the mage"?
* +Hatbot --> "King_Meepdorah rolls 1d999 for "It was beauty...that killed the mage"? and gets 999."12 [1d999=999]
<%King_Meepdorah> ...
<+superaway> ...Uh oh.
<+RandomConsonant> ...
* +superaway shakes head.

Taishyr

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Re: Nomic: TROTLR: Turn 3 (Mageykins)
« Reply #84 on: September 13, 2010, 01:13:01 PM »
Alright uh yep that's totally cool, hey if you wanna say the voting phase has started go ahead and just toss the proposal on the table in that post as well, just for bookkeeping. I don't -need- to post it, I just do it as a clear delineater.  In general I don't need to demarcate the voting phase, IOW: I do so so that the players know, just for future reference. Once the proposal decider decides to put it up to a vote, Voting Phase can begin.


Anyway Voting Phase Begin!



303. There are two Phases, or Parts, to each round of the game of Nomic: the Proposal phase, to last no more than 48 hours, and the Voting phase, to last no more than 24 hours.

Taishyr

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Re: Nomic: TROTLR: Turn 3 (Mageykins)
« Reply #85 on: September 13, 2010, 06:02:21 PM »
Okay, an update will fill this spot probably later, but it passed and everyone voted for it. Apologies for lack of detail. Rat you're up, proposal is you.

Carthrat

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Re: Nomic: TROTLR: Turn 3 (Mageykins)
« Reply #86 on: September 14, 2010, 06:29:31 AM »
304. Players may not have negative points. All players with negative points at the onset of this rule will have their score set to zero. Any point deductions that would result in a player having less than zero points will instead reduce it to zero.

So as people might have guessed, I have a strong distaste for penalizing players for not making the coolest rules. If I could I would wrap this up with another scoring rule that prevents people losing points for failed proposals. As it is, I think it's a strong candidate for immutability.

I have two other proposals that I may switch to should this not generate sufficient interest. They run along the following lines;

-A system by which each player gains a series of RPG-style stats; Attack, Defence, Intelligence, and Wisdom, or something like that. I wouldn't actually institute any use for this rules, simply the assignation of points (probably start each player at some arbitrary value and give them a few extra points to spend.) I would leave it to later players to determine how these stats interact with the game.

-A system that causes each player to become a producer of a certain commodity. Everyone would select an item, like, I dunno, 'coal', 'magical stars', 'books' or whatever, and would be able to put a number of these into their possession at the beginning of each new round of play. Again, I wouldn't define a use for them- I'd pass that duty onto the next player.
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Tonfa

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Re: Nomic: TROTLR: Turn 3 (Mageykins)
« Reply #87 on: September 14, 2010, 09:04:03 AM »
Not interested in the current proposal. The way scoring works, from proposal 313 on it's impossible to lose points by failing a proposal anyway.

The two backup candidates...well. I do not intend to use my turns in the foreseeable future to flesh out those systems, so I would rather they start with some kind of built in function.
<Niu> If I ever see that Langfadood, i'll strangle him on sight
<Gourry> What, for making the game three times better?
<Gourry> And playable, at that?
<Niu> that lose the whole point of of L2!!!

Carthrat

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Re: Nomic: TROTLR: Turn 3 (Mageykins)
« Reply #88 on: September 14, 2010, 09:45:09 AM »
Oh that's actually correct, duh. Ok!

<-->

304. Each player has four statistics, denoted as follows: Attack, Defense, Intelligence, and Spirit. Each of the values begins at 1, and on the inception of this rule, each player shall be awarded 10 additional points to spread between his statistics. When assigning these points, no statistic can be raised above 5. These points must be assigned immediately, and play will not recommence until this is done. The values are to be made public, and posted in the opening post of any and all Nomic threads.

When making a proposal for a rule-change on his turn, each player may also take one of these additional options.

Assault: Select a player. The mod will roll 1d6 and add it to your attack score, then subtract your opponents defense score from the result. Your opponent will have the result deducted from his score.
Protect: Select a player. Add your defense score to his defense score until your next turn. You are permitted to target yourself with this ability, as well, effectively doubling your defense.

Legislative Maneuvers: Select a player. The mod will roll 1d6 for each of you, and add the results to your corresponding Intelligence scores.

If your roll is lower , you suffer from an Injunction- you may not make a proposal this turn, and play passes to the next player.

If your roll is tied, nothing happens.

If your roll is higher, you can order the other player to vote in whatever manner you choose once, and he must comply. This ability must be used before your next turn, and may not be used during your turn.

Energize: Select a player. You may add your Spirit score to their Intelligence or Assault until the beginning of your next turn. This player is considered Energized. A player can only be Energized by one other player at a time. Further attempts to Energize that player fail until the first instance expires.

<-->

Okay, so this is pretty complex and big and that's why I wanted to split it up! I came up with the last two orders on the fly. I think, overall, this system should lead to some interesting diplomacy between the different players, and actually put some decision-making into the game beyond 'vote/don't vote'. None of these are overwhelmingly powerful, I believe. The strongest potential outcome is from Legislative Manuevering, but the risk makes it a bit of a gamble. Willing to consider changing the details, or developing new options if anyone can show me that this is horrifically imbalanced.

It is indeed designed to encourage factionalism and teamplay, by the way.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2010, 09:48:37 AM by Carthrat »
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Tonfa

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Re: Nomic: TROTLR: Turn 3 (Mageykins)
« Reply #89 on: September 14, 2010, 12:17:51 PM »
Sure why not.
<Niu> If I ever see that Langfadood, i'll strangle him on sight
<Gourry> What, for making the game three times better?
<Gourry> And playable, at that?
<Niu> that lose the whole point of of L2!!!

n-factorial

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Re: Nomic: TROTLR: Turn 3 (Mageykins)
« Reply #90 on: September 14, 2010, 08:49:19 PM »
a few things

for one, i presume energize boosts -attack- or intelligence, though i'm not sure it matters with the current rules (it might if more modifications are made in future addendums)

secondly, clarification request: all players on a new round make an action, or only the player proposing? i prefer first option

finally, uncertainly, but energize feels weak comparatively - perhaps give the option of stealing a (small) number points (1d6 if attack succeeds?) as an alt spirit option?


Excal

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Re: Nomic: TROTLR: Turn 3 (Mageykins)
« Reply #91 on: September 14, 2010, 09:14:22 PM »
I think I like it better if it's just one person at a time.  Though I'm not going to be overly judgemental either way.  On the whole, I like it because it will encourage politicing thanks to the fact that you can now do things to other players.

I'll also note that Energize actually looks like the second most powerful of the options, since it can either make an attack more likely to succeed, or it can boost the strongest option of the four, Legislative Maneuvering.  Since something that can wreck your chance to propose or force someone to vote your way is huge.

There should also be some kind of contract clause built into this, with both public and private options.  If it's a private contract, then either side can break it with impunity, but no one outside of the two will know the conditions of the contract.  While in the case of a public contract, there will be penalties for breaking the contract, but everyone will know what the contents of the contract are and can plan around that.

I'm trying to think of what might be a good rule for breach of contract penalties should be, since they shouldn't be so harsh as to make it unthinkable in all circumstances, but should be harsh enough that you'd only ever do it if you thought it would either get you the game, or get you damn close.  Cloud just be as simple as the violated party being able to demand reparations equal to at least the value of what he would have gotten from a successful contract minus the payment he'd have to make through a judgement.

Carthrat

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Re: Nomic: TROTLR: Turn 3 (Mageykins)
« Reply #92 on: September 15, 2010, 02:35:24 AM »
Contracts, eh?

I think they would be a seperate law that isn't explicitly tied to this one, so you can make contracts based on the presentation of laws, votes, hell, even what you just say in discussion, if you want. But I'd be for a rule like that, yeah.

I had players do it when they take their turns, but you know I might just make it get assigned at the start of each round. Will sway to popular opinion here...

Energize isn't weak since it can make your attacks more likely to succeed- I agree with Excal. It's a very powerful thing to use in conjunction with a teammate.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2010, 02:47:23 AM by Carthrat »
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Excal

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Re: Nomic: TROTLR: Turn 3 (Mageykins)
« Reply #93 on: September 15, 2010, 10:14:33 AM »
Well, given that the penalty for Legislative Maneuvering is that you lose your proposal, I'd suggest making it so that you have charges of that, which you spend to use it, and which gets reset to 1 after your proposal either goes through, or gets skipped.

Carthrat

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Re: Nomic: TROTLR: Turn 3 (Mageykins)
« Reply #94 on: September 15, 2010, 11:38:01 AM »
I'm not exactly sure what you mean?
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Excal

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Re: Nomic: TROTLR: Turn 3 (Mageykins)
« Reply #95 on: September 15, 2010, 06:16:22 PM »
Alright, when you use Legislative Maneuvering as currently proposed, a failure means that you lose your ability to propose a rule change.  This is fine when the only time you can do this is on your turn.  However, if you can now do this on more than just your turn, then if you lose you can lose you next proposal long before your next proposal comes around.

At this point, you can either incur a debt that cannot be overcome, or there is no price for failure.  In both cases, the price for failure goes away.  In the first case because if you don't feel you have any realistic chance of ever again getting a proposal, then why not?  In the other, it should easy to see why a gamble with no penalty for losing is a bad idea to allow.

So, given that the reward for Legislative Maneuvering is essentially ganking someone elses vote for the round, the main way by which we influence the game, it has to have a real and ever present downside for someone to try and go for it.  And for it to go away if you use it and the use does not pan out.

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Re: Nomic: TROTLR: Turn 3 (Mageykins)
« Reply #96 on: September 16, 2010, 02:40:02 AM »
I have absolutely no interest in anything proposed thus far. I am also absolutely actively against anything that can take away my choice on whether to vote or not. If we're playing a game of democracy, then vote-control shouldn't factor into this; how good your proposal is should be the real important factor. Especially since now if there's one or two people who randomly like a proposal, and everyone else is 100% against it for good reasons, then you can take away one of their votes and, bam, you now have a bad proposal passed. I just can't see how this is a good idea.
<%King_Meepdorah> roll 1d999 for "It was beauty...that killed the mage"?
* +Hatbot --> "King_Meepdorah rolls 1d999 for "It was beauty...that killed the mage"? and gets 999."12 [1d999=999]
<%King_Meepdorah> ...
<+superaway> ...Uh oh.
<+RandomConsonant> ...
* +superaway shakes head.

Carthrat

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Re: Nomic: TROTLR: Turn 3 (Mageykins)
« Reply #97 on: September 16, 2010, 05:07:55 AM »
@Mage: The game isn't one that can actually be won via straight democracy. Eventually, means must be introduced that enable players to gain clear leads over each other- and this can't actually be done if the other players can just get together and go 'I vote for the guy that's winning to lose'. A rule that does stuff to the voting system is, in my mind, inevitable.

@Excal: I think I see your point, now.

I've changed this rule so each player does something every turn; so that Maneuvers are limited if you get hit with an injunction, and so the rule actually functions without conflicting with other mutable rules.

304.Each player has four statistics, denoted as follows: Attack, Defense, Intelligence, and Spirit. Each of the values begins at 1, and on the inception of this rule, each player shall be awarded 10 additional points to spread between his statistics. When assigning these points, no statistic can be raised above 5. These points must be assigned immediately, and play will not recommence until this is done. The values are to be made public, and posted in the opening post of any and all Nomic threads.

During the proposal phase of each turn, each player may also take one of these additional options. These options are PM'd to the mod, to be revealed and enacted at the end of the proposal phase, before voting commences.

Assault: Select a player. Your opponent will lose 1d6+Your attack-His Defense points. The mod will roll dice and adjust the totals. (1d6 means a six-sided die, the sides consisting of 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6. Results will be taken from the side facing upwards after the die has been rolled. The mod may use a stand-in for the die, such as HATBOT, at his discretion.)
Protect: Select a player. Add your defense score to his defense score until your next turn. You are permitted to target yourself with this ability, as well, effectively doubling your defense.

Legislative Maneuvers: You may not use this ability during your own turn.

Select a player. The mod will roll 1d6 for each of you, and add the results to your corresponding Intelligence scores.

If your roll is lower, you suffer from an Injunction. This lasts until the beginning of your next turn, and you may not use Legislative Maneuvers while you are under an Injunction. In the proposal phase of your next turn, you do nothing. In the voting phase of your next turn, nothing happens.

If your roll is tied, nothing happens.

If your roll is higher, you can order the other player to vote in whatever manner you choose once, and he must comply. This ability must be used before your next turn, and may not be used during your turn.

Energize: Select a player. You may add your Spirit score to their Intelligence or Assault until the beginning of your next turn. This player is considered Energized. A player can only be Energized by one other player at a time. Further attempts to Energize that player fail until the first instance expires.

The actions are resolved in the following order- Protect, Energize, Attack, Legislative Maneuvers, meaning that a player who has energized or protected another will have this ability take effect before any other actions are done. When multiple players select the same option, they will be resolved simultaneously.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2010, 08:08:12 AM by Carthrat »
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Magetastic

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Re: Nomic: TROTLR: Turn 3 (Mageykins)
« Reply #98 on: September 16, 2010, 06:50:42 AM »
Just as a quick note: How will tie breaks be handled? I'm guessing you start with proposing player and work down the list, but it's always worth checking.

Also, I'm still uncomfortable with something like this coming up so quickly, though my fears are certainly lessened with the new proposal.
<%King_Meepdorah> roll 1d999 for "It was beauty...that killed the mage"?
* +Hatbot --> "King_Meepdorah rolls 1d999 for "It was beauty...that killed the mage"? and gets 999."12 [1d999=999]
<%King_Meepdorah> ...
<+superaway> ...Uh oh.
<+RandomConsonant> ...
* +superaway shakes head.

Carthrat

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Re: Nomic: TROTLR: Turn 3 (Mageykins)
« Reply #99 on: September 16, 2010, 07:26:29 AM »
Well, assault doesn't worry much about ties- if his defence roll is equal to or greater than your attack roll, you don't get hurt.

With legislative maneuvers, a tie just means nothing happens. Did you mean something else?
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