Author Topic: Nomic: TROTLR: Turn 8 (Bardikin)  (Read 21097 times)

Excal

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Given that pretty much all of the Immutables look like stuff that exists so that we can have a basic framework that makes it hard to break the game beyond playing, I'm not overly keen on just killing them all in one fell swoop.  Aaaaand, reading this rule, I see all it does is just change where the burden of proof lies in adding in clauses and exemptions.

I can go for that, since it'll make reading new propositions more important.

n-factorial

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i also support this voluminous proposition, though vice prez = tonfa?! confused

would be talking much more but much of my time around is when this site crashes it seems

n-factorial

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as a reminder, we still run into


110. In a conflict between a mutable and an immutable rule, the immutable rule takes precedence and the mutable rule shall be entirely void in effect. For the purposes of this rule a proposal to transmute an immutable rule does not "conflict" with that immutable rule.

as a stonewall - but as most of those are not too restrictive and simply diplojargon, i do not believe it will be too problematic


i have no issues laying some of my own cards on the table, pun intended - i intend to propose a card-based system to further amplify/dampen the effects of the fightan game, though my concept is unpolished yet, will work on it in meantime

i support this rule as it allows us to edit rules without worrying overmuch over the 20x set, promulgates chaos and interest, and allows for more creative measures


Tonfa

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Yeah, basically this allows overriding of any previous mutable rule with a new one, regardless of how the previous mutable rule is worded.

Well the reception seems mostly positive, I think we can take this into Voting Phase for reals now.
<Niu> If I ever see that Langfadood, i'll strangle him on sight
<Gourry> What, for making the game three times better?
<Gourry> And playable, at that?
<Niu> that lose the whole point of of L2!!!

Taishyr

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Okay yeah that had started Voting Phase and Voting Phase should have started a while back anyways

apologies for the lag, I've been massively sick/out of it. Would have contacted Hal except I've been too zonked the past two days to even do that thanks to memory of sieve. Apologies for holdup of game.

anyways

Tonfa ENERGIZES himself!!!
Bardiche PROTECTS Tonfa!!!
Carthrat PROTECTS himself!!!
N! PUNCHES TONFA IN THE NOSE...

[19:14] > roll 1d6 NOMIC ATTACK ROLL
[19:14] * +Hatbot --> "Taishyr rolls 1d6 NOMIC ATTACK ROLL and gets 5." [1d6=5]

5 + 5 - 1 - 5 = 4 damage!!!! Tonfa loses 4 points!

MAGE derpwall.jpg.
EXCAL derpwall.jpg.

Fifth Round:
Votes:
Excal: Yea
Bardiche: Yea
Magetastic: Abs
Rat: Abs
Tonfa: Yea
n!: Yea

The motion is PASSED!

Points:

Excal: -6
Bardiche: -6
Magetastic: 15
Rat: 15
Tonfa: 12
n!: 0

It is now n!'s turn to submit a rule! Once submitted, everyone has 48 shinin' hours to discuss it until v-v-v-v-VOTING! And remember to submit actions!

n-factorial

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Re: Nomic: TROTLR: Turn 6 (1, 2, 6, 24, 120...)
« Reply #130 on: September 23, 2010, 02:33:32 AM »
306. All players in the current game of Nomic, as of the inception of this rule, will have the options of drawing from the Deck on their turn. There are twenty cards in the Deck, and when a card is drawn, it is immediately replaced and the deck is reshuffled.

The twenty cards are divided into four suits and four ranks; each card has a unique suit/rank combination. The four suits are phlegm, sanguis, cholera, and melancholia. The ranks are Jack, Queen, King, Ace, and Eight.. (In order, these may be corresponded to spades, hearts, diamonds and clubs, and Jack, Queen, King and Ace when using a real deck to draw from).

The suits change things as follows for three turns, beginning (and taking effect) the turn it is drawn.

Phlegm/Spades: Intelligence +2, Spirit -2.
Sanguis/Hearts: Spirit +2, Intelligence -2.
Choleric/Diamond: Attack +2, Defense -2.
Melancholic/Clubs: Defense +2, Attack -2.

Jack: The card affects a random person other than the person who drew the card (roll a die to determine who is targeted).
Queen: The drawer may choose to double the negative effects of the card (with a minimum of stats of 1). If he does so, all positive effects have their numerical score increased by 1.
King: The drawer may instead choose which stat is reduced, instead of following the suit's reduction. It cannot reduce the stat increased in this way.
Ace: The drawer may instead choose which stat is increased, instead of following the suit's increase. It cannot increase the stat reduced in this way.
Eight: The drawer does not gain the positive effects of the card, but instead gains eight points immediately.


first shitdraft so if people want revision of ranks (or even suits) feel free to chime out or just discuss it

also tonfa dickmove is still dickmove. dont intend to punch you again but wanted to get a swing it. also screw you bard.

Carthrat

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Re: Nomic: TROTLR: Turn 6 (1, 2, 6, 24, 120...)
« Reply #131 on: September 23, 2010, 03:05:15 AM »
HEY WAIT

You can't energize yourself.

Quote
A player can only be Energized by one other player at a time.

Um also where was the voting phase? I wanted to vote and stuff, but I guess announcements aren't necessary...

Anyway I think it might be better to assign random generation stuff to dice rather than cards, since those are more readily available. Also, we should clarify when exactly the deck can be drawn from; is it done during the proposal phase, and resolved before any actions you take? That sort of thing.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2010, 03:09:02 AM by Carthrat »
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Taishyr

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Re: Nomic: TROTLR: Turn 6 (1, 2, 6, 24, 120...)
« Reply #132 on: September 23, 2010, 03:24:26 AM »
Energize: Select a player. You may add your Spirit score to their Intelligence or Assault until the beginning of your next turn. This player is considered Energized. A player can only be Energized by one other player at a time. Further attempts to Energize that player fail until the first instance expires.

Mmm. Ambiguous, but the line you've pointed out is the only other one that is really relevant (no other line goes any direction other than "Select any player", which implies themselves - a slight contradiction in the rules, that, but... feh. I'll figure this out tomorrow, I'm kinda dead on my feet after the medical procedure.)

Also as I kinda said earlier the person making the proposal can kinda uh usually declare the voting phase to go, and it's not like anyone said anything here to protest that they weren't done discussing it.

Sorry if I sound bitchy but I'm honestly not in the best of moods and this has been established and you have voted earlier, I do believe in general without me prompting. Really not in the mood to have people on my back right now.

Carthrat

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Re: Nomic: TROTLR: Turn 6 (1, 2, 6, 24, 120...)
« Reply #133 on: September 23, 2010, 03:31:14 AM »
If it's ambiguous that calls for JUDGEMENT!

Who is the judge in this situation? I'm forced to call for it now, but the rule itself would have come into question on Tonfa's turn...
WHAT BENEFITS CAN ONE GET FROM SCIENTOLOGY?

Taishyr

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Re: Nomic: TROTLR: Turn 6 (1, 2, 6, 24, 120...)
« Reply #134 on: September 23, 2010, 03:44:48 AM »
210. If players disagree about the legality of a move or the interpretation or application of a rule, then the player preceding the one moving is to be the Judge and decide the question.

Based on this, n!'s turn is on hold (rest of 210) and Mage is the Judge. (Excal, make sure he sees this. >_>)

Excal

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Re: Nomic: TROTLR: Turn 6 (1, 2, 6, 24, 120...)
« Reply #135 on: September 23, 2010, 11:03:24 AM »
Given how much it seems he's been paying attention, I will make sure he notices.

Anyways, Rat.  Wanna make a proper statement of your case while we wait for him to show?

Carthrat

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Re: Nomic: TROTLR: Turn 6 (1, 2, 6, 24, 120...)
« Reply #136 on: September 23, 2010, 11:07:26 AM »
Basically, Energize is supposed to require someone else to 'power you up'. The rule was intended to only allow 'other' players to do it,

This is in contrast to Protect, but whereas Protect only provides you with a defensive advantage, Energize can be used to make you stronger at influencing others. (It should also be noted that people can't refuse being energized and thus someone with Spirit 1 could energize someone and stop them from getting powered up by someone else.)

I quoted the line in question, it is somewhat ambiguous and was not clearly stated- the rule could probably use an amendment.
WHAT BENEFITS CAN ONE GET FROM SCIENTOLOGY?

Tonfa

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Re: Nomic: TROTLR: Turn 6 (1, 2, 6, 24, 120...)
« Reply #137 on: September 23, 2010, 12:02:35 PM »
My case is that it is the letter of the rules, not the 'intent', that matters in Nomic. Nothing says you can't target yourself, and you can only be Energized by one other player at a time, which again places no limitation on Energizing yourself since you're not an 'other player'.

'Bloody Angel' 'Way to the Dead City'

Anyway. I will read the new proposal carefully once I have the proper time to do so, since it looks to be quite the complicated one.
<Niu> If I ever see that Langfadood, i'll strangle him on sight
<Gourry> What, for making the game three times better?
<Gourry> And playable, at that?
<Niu> that lose the whole point of of L2!!!

Carthrat

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Re: Nomic: TROTLR: Turn 6 (1, 2, 6, 24, 120...)
« Reply #138 on: September 23, 2010, 12:13:34 PM »
You aren't strictly reading the rules there, you're simply having it imply that only one *other* player can energize you whilst still permitting you to energize yourself. However the sentence can also be taken as an absolute list of people who can energize you as well as a restriction on the number.

Furthermore, the sentence can legitimately be read to have two aspects; it could mean both 'only another player can energize you' and 'you can only be energized by one player'. You can say it only implies one or the other, but if we're doing the 'strict reading' thing you must then abide by both restrictions.
WHAT BENEFITS CAN ONE GET FROM SCIENTOLOGY?

Tonfa

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Re: Nomic: TROTLR: Turn 6 (1, 2, 6, 24, 120...)
« Reply #139 on: September 23, 2010, 05:45:51 PM »
I can see that way of reading it but disagree obviously. "Select a player" means you can select yourself and I don't see the second part banning Energize on yourself unless read in a very specific fashion.

As for the new rule it is, in my opinion, too many temporary modifiers to keep track of (especially if I'm reading right that nothing prevents the effects from stacking). In fact I would like it more if it -was- a permanent (but unreliable) way to shuffle your stats. Thoooough...as it stands it's way too risky that I, for one, would actually ever draw from it.

*shrug*
<Niu> If I ever see that Langfadood, i'll strangle him on sight
<Gourry> What, for making the game three times better?
<Gourry> And playable, at that?
<Niu> that lose the whole point of of L2!!!

Bardiche

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Re: Nomic: TROTLR: Turn 6 (1, 2, 6, 24, 120...)
« Reply #140 on: September 23, 2010, 05:54:58 PM »
I don't think I like the Jack's inclusion in the entire matter, although the rest seems fine. Queen seems a bit mrf, but it's not something I'd vehemently oppose.

As such my vote will likely be a Yea.

Energise does say "You can only be Energised by one other player"; this seems to imply only one player who is not you can Energise you but hey.


Excal

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Re: Nomic: TROTLR: Turn 6 (1, 2, 6, 24, 120...)
« Reply #141 on: September 23, 2010, 06:27:37 PM »
This seems too random.  Instead, one should be able to pay points to draw extra cards, and you can only keep one of the cards.  The price paid for the cards will increase in a geometric fashion (1, 3, 6, 10, 15...), though it'd work with a gentler incline as well.

This change keeps the randomness, but lets a player spend points in order to mitigate that randomness.  Letting them put themselves further away from victory in the hopes of getting something that will give them a stronger push for victory.

Magetastic

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Re: Nomic: TROTLR: Turn 6 (1, 2, 6, 24, 120...)
« Reply #142 on: September 23, 2010, 07:08:42 PM »
JUDGEMENT IS CALLED IN FAVOUR OF: CARTHRAT. Because I'm not seeing the ambiguity there, really. It seems pretty straightforward, to the letter of the rule, that only one player may energize you at a time, and it is not allowed to be you. Also, if we're including Protect in this, which is similar, it is stated that Protect is special in that you can target yourself with it. Nothing else can. I specifically remember this, because it was part of what kept me from vehemently opposing the whole thing.

As for the new rule, I like Excal's amendment, though I'd rather we put it as a percentage of your points (which you cannot use if you have negative or 0 points) and thus having stat changes early would be cheaper, while trying to get them later would be costly. Keeps a bit of a curb on this thing so it doesn't go haywire and at the end someone can basically choose whichever card they like. Also, I propose the stat changes be permanent.
<%King_Meepdorah> roll 1d999 for "It was beauty...that killed the mage"?
* +Hatbot --> "King_Meepdorah rolls 1d999 for "It was beauty...that killed the mage"? and gets 999."12 [1d999=999]
<%King_Meepdorah> ...
<+superaway> ...Uh oh.
<+RandomConsonant> ...
* +superaway shakes head.

Carthrat

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Re: Nomic: TROTLR: Turn 6 (1, 2, 6, 24, 120...)
« Reply #143 on: September 24, 2010, 03:02:59 AM »
I'm fine with permanent changes, actually, and think that would make the game more intense.

BUT

There should be a limit to the number of cards you can draw on your turn, too, whether enforced by an absolute limit or by charging points for draws (if there's no upper limit I'm fine with every draw costing points, really.)
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Excal

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Re: Nomic: TROTLR: Turn 6 (1, 2, 6, 24, 120...)
« Reply #144 on: September 24, 2010, 03:37:11 AM »
Hmm, I suppose tying the number of points it costs to a fraction of what you have would work as a catch up mechanic, making it easier for those who are doing poorly to try and catch up.

Not sure if I agree with the perminacy.  I think a three turn duration with a limitation of keeping one card per round would work fine, even if it had, less interesting results.

Magetastic

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Re: Nomic: TROTLR: Turn 6 (1, 2, 6, 24, 120...)
« Reply #145 on: September 24, 2010, 05:09:20 AM »
Perhaps make it so you can only draw on your turn, and it lasts until your next draw phase. That would solve the permanency thing, and give a possible reason to keep buying new cards.
<%King_Meepdorah> roll 1d999 for "It was beauty...that killed the mage"?
* +Hatbot --> "King_Meepdorah rolls 1d999 for "It was beauty...that killed the mage"? and gets 999."12 [1d999=999]
<%King_Meepdorah> ...
<+superaway> ...Uh oh.
<+RandomConsonant> ...
* +superaway shakes head.

Tonfa

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Re: Nomic: TROTLR: Turn 6 (1, 2, 6, 24, 120...)
« Reply #146 on: September 24, 2010, 11:39:49 PM »
Just a few hours left on the clock.

I won't support this proposal as it stands currently.
<Niu> If I ever see that Langfadood, i'll strangle him on sight
<Gourry> What, for making the game three times better?
<Gourry> And playable, at that?
<Niu> that lose the whole point of of L2!!!

n-factorial

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Re: Nomic: TROTLR: Turn 6 (1, 2, 6, 24, 120...)
« Reply #147 on: September 24, 2010, 11:58:17 PM »
210. If players disagree about the legality of a move or the interpretation or application of a rule, then the player preceding the one moving is to be the Judge and decide the question.

Based on this, n!'s turn is on hold (rest of 210) and Mage is the Judge. (Excal, make sure he sees this. >_>)

i'll have an edited porp up soon regardless, approve of a lot of the suggested changes but still tossing around implements. i presume i have since the judgment was put down, so give me a bit of time (do not carry the hours a lot fo you guys do  :P)

n-factorial

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Re: Nomic: TROTLR: Turn 6 (1, 2, 6, 24, 120...)
« Reply #148 on: September 25, 2010, 12:20:32 AM »
306. All players in the current game of Nomic, as of the inception of this rule, will have the options of drawing from the Deck on their turn. Draws cost this many points, rounded up and deducted as soon as the card is drawn. The cards drawn counter resets on the player's next turn. All Draws must be done before the Voting Phase, but need not be done consecutively; all Draws and their results must be declared in topic.

First draw: 1%
Second draw: 4%
Third draw: 9%
Fourth draw: 16%
Fifth draw: 25%
Sixth draw: 36%
Drawing past six cards is not permitted.

There are twenty-one cards in the Deck, and when a card is drawn, it is immediately replaced and the deck is reshuffled.

The twenty cards are divided into four suits and four ranks; each card has a unique suit/rank combination. The four suits are phlegm, sanguis, cholera, and melancholia. The ranks are Jack, Queen, King, Ace, and Eight. (In order, these may be corresponded to spades, hearts, diamonds and clubs, and Jack, Queen, King and Ace when using a real deck to draw from). The twenty-first card is the Joker of Bane.

The suits change a player's stats as follows permanently, unless stated otherwise by the rank of the card. The maximum stat allowed by card-drawn mods is 8.

Phlegm/Spades: Intelligence +1, Spirit -1.
Sanguis/Hearts: Spirit +1, Intelligence -1.
Choleric/Diamond: Attack +1, Defense -1.
Melancholic/Clubs: Defense +1, Attack -1.

Jack: If this rank is drawn, another point is deducted from the player's score. This cannot reduce the player's score below zero.
Queen: Instead of accepting the stat modification as written on the card, the player may instead swap the two stats and then apply the stat modification. (So if someone with Int 4/Spi 1 drew the Sanguine Queen, for example, they could first swap Int and Spi (to Spi 4/Int 1) and then apply the stat mod (to Spi 5/Int 1).
King: The drawer may instead choose which stat is reduced, instead of following the suit's reduction. It cannot reduce the stat increased in this way.
Ace: The drawer may instead choose which stat is increased, instead of following the suit's increase. It cannot increase the stat reduced in this way.
Eight: Instead of accepting the stat modification as written on the card, the player may choose to stop drawing for his turn. If he does so, he gets a +3 to the stat that would have been boosted, and a -3 to the stat that would have been reduced. (The player may also accept the stat mod as normal and then stop drawing.) This boost lasts until the player's next turn.
Joker of Bane: The player's stats are reset to their base.

-----

this allows for perma-statupos, but has a risk of resetting hard work so the system cannot be gamed too inctredibly hard.

i've no object to the capability to hold a hand, so to speak, but i'll leave that to someone else?
« Last Edit: September 25, 2010, 12:23:15 AM by n-factorial »

Tonfa

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Re: Nomic: TROTLR: Turn 6 (1, 2, 6, 24, 120...)
« Reply #149 on: September 25, 2010, 01:32:49 AM »
I read gud apparently.

The proposal right now seems fine for what it is though it's not setting my world on fire (I still wouldn't draw from it). If other players express an interest to play this minigame I may toss in my vote for it.

Also what is with the goofy suit names? I don't see why standard suits wouldn't do.
<Niu> If I ever see that Langfadood, i'll strangle him on sight
<Gourry> What, for making the game three times better?
<Gourry> And playable, at that?
<Niu> that lose the whole point of of L2!!!